Wolves and Ravens

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but i have kinda a weird question.

So... how come so many Pagans claim to identify with Ravens or Wolves? And why is the image of the solitary wolf so romantic to so many of us? In the wild, lone wolves are kind of the rejects, after all, and not so much stoic and majestic. Additionally, the basis of the wolf social structure is one of rigid order and subservience, which seems to sorta... contradict the whole "I grovel before no one" attitude held by many people of a non Judeo-Christian path.

But obviously it must be more than an image thing that makes many of us feel drawn to these creatures.. What is it?

[banondraig]

i knew that stuff, maybe that's why i don't identify with wolves all that much. my guess is that wolves are ferocious predators, and people identify with the ferocity aspect. they are also very loyal to their pack (when not lone), and i would think that holds appeal as well. probably the main reason is that they are not found anywhere near large cities, and so are associated more strongly with wildness than say, a squirrel might be.

as for ravens, they're really cool! i don't have any theories to rattle off about them.

[Aidron]

I think most often it is that these animals carry a mystical and mysterious quality, often a dark one (especially in the case of the raven) and people have been drawn to darkness throughout time in one form or another.

Many attempt to use these animals to represent themselves in a facade, as a sort of protection device so people won't mess with them, or to appear more confident, more ferocious, more mysterious than they truly are. In a sense, they just don't fit. I see it a lot, especially with the wolf.

It used to piss me off with so many people claiming to possess this totem animal and that one without so much more than a "I like 'em!" thought. Then, I pitied them. Now, like most people I tend to simply overlook them considering them entirely irrelevant.

In conclusion, it's a fad, and like all fads, the transparent members of the fad eventually move on. Look the other way until they do and spare yourself any annoyance I say.

[midnite_aila]

Personaly I believe it has to do with the fact the wolves are mysterious, and yet at the same time have the look of knowledge in their eyes. They are strong leaders and may symbolize to some the nomadic life. The life where anything goes and it's the strongest that survive.... but that's just my opinion. I think the OCELOT is the greatest animal though :floating:

[LittleRhiannon]

You know, I never really got that myself. Wolves are mostly pack animals from what I know, and they are really close knit and social within the packs.

Crows kind of scare me :fpoke: probably because I know they're related to The Morrigan and she scares me too.

I dont have an animal spirit guide or whatever, I but I do identify with the Bobcat. They're small and "cute" looking, but also vicious and can take down animals many times their size.

[dreamweaver]

I identify with the wolf in a much more spiritual way.In the belief structure I follow the Black Wolf symbolizes First Man.I do have a Totem Animal but mine is the Bear,I was born under it as I was born in August.

I also laugh at those who think they can just pick an animal as a totem because they are cute.Most of them Are popcorn pagans.Full of hot air with little substance.

I have followed a very spiritual path mixed with shamanic teachings for over 48 years and do associate with the spirit animals in doing so.

[Threase]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but i have kinda a weird question.

So... how come so many Pagans claim to identify with Ravens or Wolves? And why is the image of the solitary wolf so romantic to so many of us? In the wild, lone wolves are kind of the rejects, after all, and not so much stoic and majestic. Additionally, the basis of the wolf social structure is one of rigid order and subservience, which seems to sorta... contradict the whole "I grovel before no one" attitude held by many people of a non Judeo-Christian path.

But obviously it must be more than an image thing that makes many of us feel drawn to these creatures.. What is it?

Umm. I'm not really sure how to begin here. First of all, I identify with wolves for many reasons. They're smart, loyal, they're family oriented, playful, and just plain amazing creatures. I've loved them since I was a child and I really can't explain why. They never scared me like they used to scare other kids. I've always felt like I have a sort of kinship with them (laugh all you want, I don't care.) It's NOT because of their "reputation" of being powerful and majestic beings.

Secondly, "rigid order and subservience"? Where do you get your information? Yes, wolves have a structure, they have a certain way of doing things. When hunting, it is usually the Alpha Male and Female that lead the pack, and that strike the first blow to their prey. So it is that the Alphas get to eat first. Also, the Alpha female usually doesn't keep most of the meal in her stomach, as she has a lot of pups to feed every spring and summer. She makes several trips before she actually gets to eat. As for the pack structure, everyone has it's purpose. Alphas are leaders because they are the strongest. Betas are second in command, then come the subordinates. I'm assuming by "rigid order and subservience" you mean the Omegas. Many people believe that the Omegas are constantly picked on and brutalized by their packmates, which either lead to them leaving the pack and being a lone wolf, or death. They are the oldest and the weakest, and are usually the ones to take care of the pups when the rest of the pack is away. As these pups grow older, they usually don't realize that what they consider playing to be could actually hurt their former sitters. Also, I feel I have to say that some wolves aren't driven out of their pack, they simply leave for their own reasons.

I don't mean to ramble on, but this thread kind of hit a nerve. I know I'm just one person, and that there are a bunch of people who might not think the way I do at all. I know this thread probably wasn't meant to be insulting, but I felt I had to say my bit... so sorry if this came off a bit harsh, but for some reason I felt a little insulted. So sorry ahead of time...

[BrigidMoon]

Odd. I do identify with wolves but not a lone one. I guess I can see the wolves, bears, ravens etc in most all of us. I like being a part of clans which is odd because in my practice I'm solitary but gathering with those that love me for me and my beliefs and vice versa. Okay so that sounds really fluffy and whatnot but however, it's true. When I gather with others that I trust and love - they usually don't judge me at all.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well, I wouldn't say I identify with them, but I think corvidae are awesome (crows, ravens, magpies...) I think the Crow Girls in Charles DeLint's novels are cool. Anyway, I suppose it comes from the fact that I like shiny things (a lot. You should see my altar.), and the fact that I'm a sh*t-disturber. I like the fact that they're very clever creatures, tricksy, and playful. And I do have a morbid sense of humour, so the death association is cool too. I suppose I'm like them in certain ways; I can certainly scare people at times, too, but I wouldn't call it totemic or anything.

Traditionally both corvids and wolves have been associated with the "dark side" and that probably attracts some people, I'm sure. Wolves, in particular are very strong, potentially dangerous, and misunderstood. I think some people identify with these qualities. So tricksters and death; what's not to love?

Personally, though I may have the personality like a crow (archetypically), I really love cows. I don't know exactly why, but they've made quite an impression on my life.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Verthandi]

I'm fond of wolves and ravens mainly because of their symbiotic relationship: ravens find the food, signal the wolves and after the kill, get to eat too. I also like wolves because of the amazing comeback they made. There's a small pack on Isle Royal and biologists are finding more wolves in the UP than they expected. I think it's incredible. As far as ravens go, not too many birds can mimic other sounds, so I find those that can interesting.

[Abriel Ravenmoon]

I myself follow the Celtic path so ravens to me are an important totem animal of the Celts. In Ireland the raven was associated with the battlefields and such goddesses as the Morrigu or later Welsh Morrigan, just as was the crow. The bird was connected with Bran the Blessed; in Welsh bran means "raven". Although its reputation is dubious, it is an oracular bird. It often represents the upsets and crises of life that are necessary for anything new to be created. Take care when dealing with this bird.

Raven (Fitheach)

[Wolf O Volos]

OKAY. :rant: is finally going to be turned on again for a minute. First. To say it is simply for the darker aspect is ludicris. Wolves are FAR from dark, unless you are easilly fooled by fairy tales written by the brothers Grimm. Wolves happen to be the FIRST in a long line of canine companions. Every dog has roots in evolution going back to the wolf. Meaning it is , and was, the first; closer to nature and divinity than Fido... And that is just a SMALL part of what intrigues many long standing pagans about wolves.
To some pagans, there is a natural connection to wolves. It reflects both a spiritual and physical understanding of the natural world that we are not ABOVE, but a part of. The deep family closeness, the open display of emotion, the responsibility each individual member contributes to the good of the pack, the structure and very nature of thier daily Routines. They show a great wisdom in living side by side with nature.

The wolf is symbolic of protection, fierce and determined when faced with adversarial conditions. Does this mean I am drawn to them for being fierce? Not really... but I can tell you this, when one needs protection, would you rather have a "killer bunny familiar" to call on for protection? I know that is extreme, but come on. The wolf is also symbolic of Pathfinding, when one is lost, calling upon the spirit of the wolf, its nose down to the earth, and ears perked up and alert, to guide you. The wolf is also symbolic of strength, reliability... of being strongest when with its packmates, and relying completely in the pack to be there to stand along side... no favoritism, no backstabbing... And the strength wolves have as family... Even the lowest wolf on their social order is caretaker to the alpha female's pups. Each wolf in the pack will take part in the rearing and upbringing of pups... any other animals in the wild THAT devoted to the good of the whole? And although it has been shown through science that the songs of wolves are very complicated messages and signals sent to other wolves, the whole notion of the wolves who sing to the moon... the pure goddess worship symbolism involved... I would say, *symbolicly speaking*, there are not to many other creatures that would share such fables, and a closeness to divinity, as actual goddess worship.

And the "lone wolf" stigma that was addressed... no, it is not romantic, nor is it a symbol of rejection, or social outcast in a derogatory sense. It falls upopn the natural order of things. And what is it to be pagan if not to be aligned with the NATURAL order? A lone wolf generally is the wolf that is either the elder of the pack, or the runt of the litter of pups. In order for the pack to survive as a unit, the eldest usually stands down, for the good of the whole, and wanders off alone to spend the last of its days knowing isntictively that its sacrifice will help the pack survive. In the case of the runt... yes, it is picked on somewhat, in order to drive it away from the group, as in a lot of instances, its presence is not conducive to the good of the pack... it is not needed in the hunt, it is an extra mouth to feed, and aside from being a caretaker to pups when they are born, serves no purpose to the pack it was born to. BUT, it has been observed that these "runts" may have been able to find a pack, that maybe has fallen upon difficult times, and been taken in to be a useful and respected member of that pack. Some have even gone to territories uninhabited by another pack, and started a pack of their own, that eventually becomes just as strong, if not stronger than the pack that no longer needed them.

So what does all of that 'lone wolf' imagry mean to me? That even the lowest wolf in the order may find greatness, and usefullness, through perserverance. That although the place you are in right now may not feel right to you, there are possibilities to strike out on your own to make your own way in this world. Adaptability. The natural instinct to survive even when left to one's own devices.
How does this grab you? I was a social outcast, made fun of all through my youth by my seriously christian friends because I used to piss off the nuns at catholic school by asking questions about "If Noah had Lions on his Ark... why didn't the lions eat the sheep? If they all got along, what did Noah feed the Lions???" My knuckles ached. Honestly. Nuns with rulers... dangerous....So I was the omega... forced out of my "christian pack"... so I struck out on my own. And now I belong to a more important, more fitting "pack". That of my pagan brothers and sisters. And if I must be fierce to defend our way of thinking, if I must call upon the strength and adaptability of the wolf when faced with persecution and ridicule from the ignorant masses that would call us evil or satanic, or what have you.... then I will.

And speaking of ridicule and misunderstanding.... The wolf knows PLENTY about that as well. Never has such a majestic and beautiful creature in nature had to overcome such biased and negative campaigning. In fairy tales... in horror novels... when a farmer has his herd attacked by ANY wild animal... wolves are made to be the spawn of evil. They are seen as primal, savage, untrustworthy... and the truth of the matter, there have been no known wolf attacks on a human being in over a century. The big bad wolf? The wolf who ate the boy who cried "wolf"? Wolves guarding vampires' lairs? And just as missunderstood, are we, as pagans. Devil worshippers... child sacrificers... primal, savage untrustworthy people who dance naked around bon fires to show our disrespect to god and love of evil???? And tell me none of you can relate to THAT.... come on. Nobody has been discriminated against for being pagan? Another reason *I* find connection and associate with wolves.

Of course, this in no way is saying all of you should wish to understand wolves. I personally would rather see people enlightened to the idea that wolves are majestic, and beautiful, and no more evil than rats, beavers, panthers, etc.... And savage? Excuse me folks... but NATURE itself is not all love and light. Nature is not always pretty. But if you really got to know wolves, you would see the harmony they live in with regards to the natural world around them. BUT, if you choose not to, that is your path. And who am I to tell you what path to walk? Just do not expect me to sit by idle and allow people to judge ME because I follow the spirit of the wolf.

And if it makes you as a person, as a pagan, as whatever, feel like you are better than someone else to poke fun at someone else for the things they believe in... here.. have a friggin cookie. _cookie_ Go giggle yourself silly at the expense, and newborn disrespect, of others who may have once looked upon you as a member of the "pack"

[Threase]

OKAY. :rant: is finally going to be turned on again for a minute. First. To say it is simply for the darker aspect is ludicris. Wolves are FAR from dark, unless you are easilly fooled by fairy tales written by the brothers Grimm. Wolves happen to be the FIRST in a long line of canine companions. Every dog has roots in evolution going back to the wolf. Meaning it is , and was, the first; closer to nature and divinity than Fido... And that is just a SMALL part of what intrigues many long standing pagans about wolves.
To some pagans, there is a natural connection to wolves. It reflects both a spiritual and physical understanding of the natural world that we are not ABOVE, but a part of. The deep family closeness, the open display of emotion, the responsibility each individual member contributes to the good of the pack, the structure and very nature of thier daily Routines. They show a great wisdom in living side by side with nature.

The wolf is symbolic of protection, fierce and determined when faced with adversarial conditions. Does this mean I am drawn to them for being fierce? Not really... but I can tell you this, when one needs protection, would you rather have a "killer bunny familiar" to call on for protection? I know that is extreme, but come on. The wolf is also symbolic of Pathfinding, when one is lost, calling upon the spirit of the wolf, its nose down to the earth, and ears perked up and alert, to guide you. The wolf is also symbolic of strength, reliability... of being strongest when with its packmates, and relying completely in the pack to be there to stand along side... no favoritism, no backstabbing... And the strength wolves have as family... Even the lowest wolf on their social order is caretaker to the alpha female's pups. Each wolf in the pack will take part in the rearing and upbringing of pups... any other animals in the wild THAT devoted to the good of the whole? And although it has been shown through science that the songs of wolves are very complicated messages and signals sent to other wolves, the whole notion of the wolves who sing to the moon... the pure goddess worship symbolism involved... I would say, *symbolicly speaking*, there are not to many other creatures that would share such fables, and a closeness to divinity, as actual goddess worship.

And the "lone wolf" stigma that was addressed... no, it is not romantic, nor is it a symbol of rejection, or social outcast in a derogatory sense. It falls upopn the natural order of things. And what is it to be pagan if not to be aligned with the NATURAL order? A lone wolf generally is the wolf that is either the elder of the pack, or the runt of the litter of pups. In order for the pack to survive as a unit, the eldest usually stands down, for the good of the whole, and wanders off alone to spend the last of its days knowing isntictively that its sacrifice will help the pack survive. In the case of the runt... yes, it is picked on somewhat, in order to drive it away from the group, as in a lot of instances, its presence is not conducive to the good of the pack... it is not needed in the hunt, it is an extra mouth to feed, and aside from being a caretaker to pups when they are born, serves no purpose to the pack it was born to. BUT, it has been observed that these "runts" may have been able to find a pack, that maybe has fallen upon difficult times, and been taken in to be a useful and respected member of that pack. Some have even gone to territories uninhabited by another pack, and started a pack of their own, that eventually becomes just as strong, if not stronger than the pack that no longer needed them.

So what does all of that 'lone wolf' imagry mean to me? That even the lowest wolf in the order may find greatness, and usefullness, through perserverance. That although the place you are in right now may not feel right to you, there are possibilities to strike out on your own to make your own way in this world. Adaptability. The natural instinct to survive even when left to one's own devices.
How does this grab you? I was a social outcast, made fun of all through my youth by my seriously christian friends because I used to piss off the nuns at catholic school by asking questions about "If Noah had Lions on his Ark... why didn't the lions eat the sheep? If they all got along, what did Noah feed the Lions???" My knuckles ached. Honestly. Nuns with rulers... dangerous....So I was the omega... forced out of my "christian pack"... so I struck out on my own. And now I belong to a more important, more fitting "pack". That of my pagan brothers and sisters. And if I must be fierce to defend our way of thinking, if I must call upon the strength and adaptability of the wolf when faced with persecution and ridicule from the ignorant masses that would call us evil or satanic, or what have you.... then I will.

And speaking of ridicule and misunderstanding.... The wolf knows PLENTY about that as well. Never has such a majestic and beautiful creature in nature had to overcome such biased and negative campaigning. In fairy tales... in horror novels... when a farmer has his herd attacked by ANY wild animal... wolves are made to be the spawn of evil. They are seen as primal, savage, untrustworthy... and the truth of the matter, there have been no known wolf attacks on a human being in over a century. The big bad wolf? The wolf who ate the boy who cried "wolf"? Wolves guarding vampires' lairs? And just as missunderstood, are we, as pagans. Devil worshippers... child sacrificers... primal, savage untrustworthy people who dance naked around bon fires to show our disrespect to god and love of evil???? And tell me none of you can relate to THAT.... come on. Nobody has been discriminated against for being pagan? Another reason *I* find connection and associate with wolves.

Of course, this in no way is saying all of you should wish to understand wolves. I personally would rather see people enlightened to the idea that wolves are majestic, and beautiful, and no more evil than rats, beavers, panthers, etc.... And savage? Excuse me folks... but NATURE itself is not all love and light. Nature is not always pretty. But if you really got to know wolves, you would see the harmony they live in with regards to the natural world around them. BUT, if you choose not to, that is your path. And who am I to tell you what path to walk? Just do not expect me to sit by idle and allow people to judge ME because I follow the spirit of the wolf.

And if it makes you as a person, as a pagan, as whatever, feel like you are better than someone else to poke fun at someone else for the things they believe in... here.. have a friggin cookie. _cookie_ Go giggle yourself silly at the expense, and newborn disrespect, of others who may have once looked upon you as a member of the "pack"

_handclapp Well said.

[Verthandi]

would you rather have a "killer bunny familiar" to call on for protection?
I would! Especially if it's the bunny from 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail!' :lol:

[Threase]

I would! Especially if it's the bunny from 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail!' :lol:

LMAO!! Okay, I agree with THAT, that bunny rawks! :rotfl:

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

You guys are taking my question as an insult. I'm sorry that I seem to have struck a nerve by commenting on what is undoubtly in many cases a superficial trend (but what obviously is not in some people, as some of the posts have so verbosely and patronizingly pointed out). Honestly, I had no idea I was being so offensive. Truce... if you're done overreacting.

[Verthandi]

You guys are taking my question as an insult. I'm sorry that I seem to have struck a nerve by commenting on what is undoubtly in many cases a superficial trend (but what obviously is not in some people, as some of the posts have so verbosely and patronizingly pointed out). Honestly, I had no idea I was being so offensive. Truce... if you're done overreacting.
You want a truce, but you not-so-subtlely insult us? If you ask a question on a public forum, be prepared for everyone to share their opinions, not just the ones that agree with you.

[Wolf O Volos]

If you did not wish to be insulting, then calling out any, and all wolf (and raven) followers as "superficial" was a mis-step in the wrong direction. And if that comment about being patronizing was directed at my rant, then I appologise to you for coming acrossed that way... but it is something I feel very strongly, and I felt maybe you should see what a *real* follower of the path of the wolf would have to say.
And as an after thought... by calling out those who are curious and "superficial" in their beliefs, you forget that we all started as wide eyed newbies at one point, and SOMETHING had sparked an interest in us to find the Goddess... It is not always the path that gets you there that is important, but the destination you finally arrive at. So let those who are curious remain curious... maybe it will spark an interest that goes beyond mere "fluff" and brings them to a point where they truley understand and have faith in something greater than themselves. Maybe they misunderstand the powers that call to them, and the reason they are curious in the first place is because they have not yet learned to attune themselves to *really* listen...
Just a thought...

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

Only, I am definitely not calling all people with affinities for these creatures superficial. I am saying the fact that it has become a trend is superficial, and the people that follow it because of it being an image thing are likewise superficial.

Heck, I admire the obvious amount of genuine knowledge you have about your "totem animal' for lack of a better term. Obviously your beliefs are sincere. I guess we have just misunderstood each other. But if you want to start a little battle, go ahead. I'm already done caring.

[Wolf O Volos]

No... no battle worth fighting in this one. If you say it is a misunderstanding, I take you at your word. And whether you care or not... that is your path, and your decision.

Love and light to you, AnFoghlaiBanrion. And may you look past the misunderstanding, and see the true message of my words someday. :hugz:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

would you rather have a "killer bunny familiar" to call on for protection?

Actually yes I would far rather have my rabbit totem then a wolf or raven. The rabbit teaches you how to protect yourself, to rely on your own wits and abilities. Last I checked, relying on yourself, and not others was a good thing.

You go on a rant about people disrespecting you and why your totem/fetish is a wolf, but then you go and do just that. Keep in mind the Golden Rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It might be from Christian tradition, but it's a valuable rule of thumb nonetheless.

There are a large number of people within the neo-pagan community who don't even understand the purpose of a totem/fetish (sorry the Native tradition I was raised with and received my totem/fetish from referred to them as fetishes), and they do pick wolves and ravens because they're cool or mysterious. I never saw AnFoghlaiBanrion say everyone who had one such totem/fetish did so superficially, just that there are a large number who do. Instead of getting offended at the first site of someone questioning you, read it again and see if there really is something to take offense to.

[Wolf O Volos]

Actually yes I would far rather have my rabbit totem then a wolf or raven. The rabbit teaches you how to protect yourself, to rely on your own wits and abilities. Last I checked, relying on yourself, and not others was a good thing.

You go on a rant about people disrespecting you and why your totem/fetish is a wolf, but then you go and do just that. Keep in mind the Golden Rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It might be from Christian tradition, but it's a valuable rule of thumb nonetheless.

There are a large number of people within the neo-pagan community who don't even understand the purpose of a totem/fetish (sorry the Native tradition I was raised with and received my totem/fetish from referred to them as fetishes), and they do pick wolves and ravens because they're cool or mysterious. I never saw AnFoghlaiBanrion say everyone who had one such totem/fetish did so superficially, just that there are a large number who do. Instead of getting offended at the first site of someone questioning you, read it again and see if there really is something to take offense to.


Noted. Apologies for disrespecting your fetish, and using it as an exapmle. I would have said hampster... but the fluffy bunny was about the cutest, and most symbolic thing I could think up at the time of my rant.
And in no area of the post did I suggest ALL neopagans should have a fetish/totem/familiar... Just wanted to set the record straight on what drove me Personally to find spiritual strength in wolves. And in so doing, maybe set the record straight in the minds of others who found this thread somewhat an insult. Calling someone's spiritual beliefs a fad, even if not directed RIGHT at that person, feels insulting.
Anyways, I appreciate your wisdom Morag, and will think about things from your point of view a while. Maybe I will be lucky enough to grow from this. :cheers:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Noted. Apologies for disrespecting your fetish, and using it as an exapmle. I would have said hampster... but the fluffy bunny was about the cutest, and most symbolic thing I could think up at the time of my rant.

Apology accepted.

And in no area of the post did I suggest ALL neopagans should have a fetish/totem/familiar... Just wanted to set the record straight on what drove me Personally to find spiritual strength in wolves. And in so doing, maybe set the record straight in the minds of others who found this thread somewhat an insult. Calling someone's spiritual beliefs a fad, even if not directed RIGHT at that person, feels insulting.
Anyways, I appreciate your wisdom Morag, and will think about things from your point of view a while. Maybe I will be lucky enough to grow from this. :cheers:

I don't recall saying you did. Where I think you got that from was my point about the OP saying that there are a large number of people who pick wolves and ravens because they don't understand the real purpose of totems/fetishes and think those are cool animals. It is unfortunate for those people who do have raven and wolf totems for valid and personal reasons, but it does happen frequently that people chose them to be cool or mysterious without really understanding either the purpose of the totem/fetish or what the animal is about. I see it even amongst people with whom I'm close and personal friends. And while I love and respect them, I do not always agree with their decision to make the wolf or raven their totem just because they like the animal.

[Threase]

Actually yes I would far rather have my rabbit totem then a wolf or raven. The rabbit teaches you how to protect yourself, to rely on your own wits and abilities. Last I checked, relying on yourself, and not others was a good thing.

Heh... sorry, SO off topic... your totem animal is the Rabbit and you're the "Smack the Rabbit" champion... hehehe... sorry...

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Heh... sorry, SO off topic... your totem animal is the Rabbit and you're the "Smack the Rabbit" champion... hehehe... sorry...

Hey, I can't help it. It's such an addicting game...Rabbit understands. _tomatoe_

[WolfMoon]

Alrighty, here we go...

After reading all these, I don't think anyone meant to insult anyone, merely question the popularity of certain creatures. Sadly, people can get rather defensive when their motives can be called into question. I know reading the first post I got a little defensive, but when you think about it, there's a lot of truth to that.

There can be many reasons why wolves (in particular) are so popular. One, there's been a lot of wolves in the media the last few years. From werewolf movies to more people watching nature shows, wolves are getting more exposure. This increases lupine visibility and people might identify with that.

Sadly, that leads to reason #2...Hollywooditis. People may not watch a lot of Animal Planet, but they see movies like Wolf and Van Helsing. Wolf in particular really plays up the romantizied notion of the 'lone wolf'. Within our own society, we glorify the rebel, the loner...so of course the idealized lone wolf is going to become popular. If people are drawn to the Hollywood idea of the lone wolf, and that's all they understand, of course that's what they're going to identify with.

It may not even be people choosing the animal superficially, it might be more of them choosing an animal based on aspects we've projected onto them. In essence, choosing through false information.

While I'm sure the vast majority of wolf and raven people are entirely valid, it's like anything else...there are those who desperately want it, so claim it.

[Wolf O Volos]

by calling out those who are curious and "superficial" in their beliefs, you forget that we all started as wide eyed newbies at one point, and SOMETHING had sparked an interest in us to find the Goddess... It is not always the path that gets you there that is important, but the *destination* you finally arrive at. So, please, let those who are curious remain curious... maybe it will spark an interest that goes beyond mere "fluff" and brings them to a point where they truley understand and have faith in something greater than themselves. Maybe they misunderstand the powers that call to them, and the reason they are curious in the first place is because they have not yet learned to attune themselves to *really* listen...



Just wanted to make sure that little tid-bit did not get lost in the shadow of my rant. It is easy enough to judge people for doing something just because it is "cool"... but if it leads to something better...
Instead of judging, as even I am guilty of doing, I admit, suppose we should all take a moment to get our bearings, and give 'em more to work with. Information and guidance instead fo just a scoff, and a "gods newbies are annoying" sigh.

[Dawa Lhamo]

OKAY. :rant: is finally going to be turned on again for a minute. First. To say it is simply for the darker aspect is ludicris. Wolves are FAR from dark, unless you are easilly fooled by fairy tales written by the brothers Grimm. Wolves happen to be the FIRST in a long line of canine companions. Every dog has roots in evolution going back to the wolf. Meaning it is , and was, the first; closer to nature and divinity than Fido... And that is just a SMALL part of what intrigues many long standing pagans about wolves. Well, for my part, when I said wolves were traditionally considered dark, I didn't mean it as traditional in any totemic system, but Euro-American culture. I should have been more clear on that. I know, I was being ethnocentric in my assumptions. I'm thinking of all the wolf-scares and legends of monstrocity that eventually led to the systematic extermination of a huge number of wolves in Europe and North America. Europeans used to be absolutely terrified of wolves, and the danger attributed to wolves. Anything associated with wolves became associated with evil or the devil (little red riding hood anyone?). People now are becoming more aware (perhaps with increasing industrialization/urbanization?) that these ideas were wrong, and so some may identify either because wolves are misunderstood and they sympathize with wolves' plight, or because wolves are misunderstood and they want to exemplify those dangerous associations that still linger with the wolf. I didn't mean to say that cultures or people within them who honestly identified with wolves saw them as dark/evil; that's far from the truth and I'm sorry if it seemed that that was what I was saying.

I think there's also a tendency with things like this, for people to interpret an explanation for something as writing it off. If you(nonspecific) identify because you sympathize with a wolf, then that is a potential explanation, but it isn't necessarily the whole of it, nor does it mean that your identification is illegitimate because it can (partially) be explained. In my post, I just meant to give a few possible reasons, as nonjudgementally as possible, why some people might want to identify with wolves or ravens; I didn't intend to write everyone off as such or even imply that those reasons are illegitimate. Just for clarification.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Annyka]

I have no interest in either the wolf or the raven. Infact until recently, I wasn't interested in the thought of having a totem animal at all. I say recently, as I was approached in many forms (dream and some other strange co-incidences that I won't go into here) by my current totem - the Hyena.

I have an affiliation with a couple of animals, I am very strongly attached to the Snake - I think this is my main Totem, and there is this really F&^%$*g annoying bird (I haven't figured out what type of bird it is yet) that comes to me when I need to focus on something REALLY important (The really annoying thing about it is that I can't even come close to concentrating when it continuously sings its really annoying stupid song. - I am so glad when I finally figure out what I am supposed to focus on, coz then it goes away!

The hyena is a new one, I don't know why. Well this is the 2nd time it has come into my life - I am sure I'll figure out its importance soon enough!

[Raven Reed]

I get defensive about the Raven thing, because it's my real name and so many folks in the pagan community choose some variant for their magical names that people assume I am using a magical name when, in fact, I am not. However, I am also honored that so many people like my name and want to use it. So, I am torn on the issue.

I don't claim a totem animal. I don't feel drawn to one. However, I am very partial to ravens. I like the mythology of them. They are associate with many different dieties in many cultures. There are are lots of legends and tales about them. Their darker associations suit my sometimes gloomy nature (scorpio that I am). They are nature's recyclers, as scavengers. As someone mentioned, they are bright animals... In fact, the corvid is the second smartest bird family, right after parrots.

For fellow corvidophiles, check out http://www.shades-of-night.com/aviary/.

[SheWolf]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but i have kinda a weird question.

So... how come so many Pagans claim to identify with Ravens or Wolves? And why is the image of the solitary wolf so romantic to so many of us? In the wild, lone wolves are kind of the rejects, after all, and not so much stoic and majestic. Additionally, the basis of the wolf social structure is one of rigid order and subservience, which seems to sorta... contradict the whole "I grovel before no one" attitude held by many people of a non Judeo-Christian path.

But obviously it must be more than an image thing that makes many of us feel drawn to these creatures.. What is it?

Hello,

That isn't a weird question to ask. Now I can't answer for other people out there, and I don't know why everyone identifies with wolves and ravens because underneath people have their own reasons. Every individual person is complex and some may be flattered to associate with certain animals but it'll be interesting to find out why they are. First of all I know little about the raven so I'm going to respond on behalf of your query about wolves. Yes indeed some may pass it off as influences from werewolf films but then what is it about werewolves that latches onto the human psyche? it's because also many people are fascinated by wolves one way or another. My theory about pagans identifying with wolves:

The wolf is a spiritual icon/avatar that is deeply embedded in the human psyche and has been for centuries. People feared wolves during harder times. In other periods of history humans were pally with the wolf. Wolves feature in many legends, folklore and spiritual wisdom. There is a subconscious link between human beings and wolves, although I understand not all people have any connection to this animal. I can't really explain why wolves and humans have such a close link at all because it's not easy to articulate in words. I can feel the answer but I cannot express it. Hope that makes sense?

The solitary wolf is a symbol of the lone human, the outcast. You're right when you mentioned the "rejects" because in that despair of rejection some people will be inclined to delve into a spiritual level and see the wolf spirit as a councilling guide. At one time I could respond to the Lone Wolf, and I could say that this has helped me. Now I can identy with the Lupa/She-Wolf - (the loyal mother-goddess wolf). Not all "wolf people" associate with lone wolves. You're also right that wolves have a strong pack bonding, which is why human communities held the wolf totem in high regard. I'm not sure if that fully answered your question though but it's an interesting subject and not easily explanable.