I need help

[Crystal_Raye]

I'm on another forum talking to these two people telling them that Paganism isn't a religion but a type of religion. They keep telling me I'm wrong. Can anyone help me?

Also, one of them says their religion is otherkin. Is it a religion? I'm 99% sure its not but I could be wrong.

[Crystal_Raye]

This is a sample of what one of them wrote.

I wrote:
pa·gan
n.
One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
One who has no religion.
A non-Christian.
A hedonist.
A Neo-Pagan.

adj.
Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
Professing no religion; heathen.
Neo-Pagan.


They wrote:
And where did you get that? The dictionary?? Because it is WRONG!!
What is this world coming to when even the writers of the english language dictionary are too ingnorant to get their religions right?

[SacredWithin]

I'm on another forum talking to these two people telling them that Paganism isn't a religion but a type of religion. They keep telling me I'm wrong. Can anyone help me?

I think they're right b/c Paganism is just an umbrella term for many faiths. Just like Christian is as well for the many denominations they have (Baptist, Methodist, Episcopal, etc.)

Also, one of them says their religion is otherkin. Is it a religion? I'm 99% sure its not but I could be wrong.

I think by "otherkin" they may mean Asatru. Most Asatrus I've spoken to liked to be called "Heathens". I don't think they like to be associated with many of the Neo-Pagans because they feel the faiths have been tainted by Christian ideals.

But I could be totally wrong too.

[Carickah]

I'm on another forum talking to these two people telling them that Paganism isn't a religion but a type of religion. They keep telling me I'm wrong. Can anyone help me?

Also, one of them says their religion is otherkin. Is it a religion? I'm 99% sure its not but I could be wrong.
I would guide them to a dictionary. Ask them what Paganism is to them. Have them be specific. Not just that it's a religion, ask them to explain the specific beliefs. Ask them if they have ever actually studied it.

As far as the otherkin question, I've never heard of that, but with thousands of religions in the world, and many more personal belief systems, I couldn't say it's not. Ask them to tell you more. It sounds, from the name, that it may be a pagan religion. Again, I can't say that it is or isn't, since I know nothing of it. Remember, there is no such thing as the one true path, each path is right for the person who follows it. Respect their religion and you will find they will be much more likely to respect yours.



k

[SacredWithin]

This is a sample of what one of them wrote.

I wrote:
pa·gan
n.
One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
One who has no religion.
A non-Christian.
A hedonist.
A Neo-Pagan.

adj.
Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
Professing no religion; heathen.
Neo-Pagan.


They wrote:
And where did you get that? The dictionary?? Because it is WRONG!!
What is this world coming to when even the writers of the english language dictionary are too ingnorant to get their religions right?


They sound like fundamentalist Pagans to me. Where'd they come from? Perhaps they need to become enlightened? The dictionary to them is wrong probably because it was written by (guess who) Christians.

Instead of telling you you're wrong, ask them what is meant by a Pagan. They sound rude to me. Could you direct us to the thread, maybe we could help you better?

[Carickah]

This is a sample of what one of them wrote.

I wrote:
pa·gan
n.
One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
One who has no religion.
A non-Christian.
A hedonist.
A Neo-Pagan.

adj.
Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
Professing no religion; heathen.
Neo-Pagan.


They wrote:
And where did you get that? The dictionary?? Because it is WRONG!!
What is this world coming to when even the writers of the english language dictionary are too ingnorant to get their religions right?
IIRC, pagan, in the older usage, defined someone who lived in the country or deep in the woods. Perhaps they are referring to that usage.


k

[Crystal_Raye]

I would guide them to a dictionary. Ask them what Paganism is to them. Have them be specific. Not just that it's a religion, ask them to explain the specific beliefs. Ask them if they have ever actually studied it.

As far as the otherkin question, I've never heard of that, but with thousands of religions in the world, and many more personal belief systems, I couldn't say it's not. Ask them to tell you more. It sounds, from the name, that it may be a pagan religion. Again, I can't say that it is or isn't, since I know nothing of it. Remember, there is no such thing as the one true path, each path is right for the person who follows it. Respect their religion and you will find they will be much more likely to respect yours.



k

I have guided them to a dictionary. www.dictionary.com This is what they wrote.

Me:
pa·gan
n.
One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
One who has no religion.
A non-Christian.
A hedonist.
A Neo-Pagan.

adj.
Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
Professing no religion; heathen.
Neo-Pagan.

Them: And where did you get that? The dictionary?? Because it is WRONG!!
What is this world coming to when even the writers of the english language dictionary are too ingnorant to get their reigions right?

Me: No that is the correct definition of the word. Have a webster dictionary with you? Look it up.

Them: Fine, thats the definition of the word, but thats not what the word means

[Crystal_Raye]

They sound like fundamentalist Pagans to me. Where'd they come from? Perhaps they need to become enlightened? The dictionary to them is wrong probably because it was written by (guess who) Christians.

Instead of telling you you're wrong, ask them what is meant by a Pagan. They sound rude to me. Could you direct us to the thread, maybe we could help you better?

Here's the link. I hope it works. The people I'm arguing with are Jeffie and Shonsu. It starts on that page and goes on.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4116214&postdays=0&postorder=asc&sid=97e668dc059f7997f0e3dfc067f9dc2c&start=2880

[SacredWithin]

Me: No that is the correct definition of the word. Have a webster dictionary with you? Look it up.

Them: Fine, thats the definition of the word, but thats not what the word means

They don't sound very...experienced. Too rude. But then again, anyone with experince could be rude, but at least, I woud think they'd have an explanation if they're going to make a claim.

[AlAskendir]

I think they're right b/c Paganism is just an umbrella term for many faiths. Just like Christian is as well for the many denominations they have (Baptist, Methodist, Episcopal, etc.)



I think by "otherkin" they may mean Asatru. Most Asatrus I've spoken to liked to be called "Heathens". I don't think they like to be associated with many of the Neo-Pagans because they feel the faiths have been tainted by Christian ideals.

But I could be totally wrong too.

No, 'otherkin' is more of a lifestyle than a religion....kind of like a Pagan version of Buddhism - - - not in terms of beliefs but in the pervasiveness of how they live what they believe. 'Otherkin' are those who have been to Science Fiction Conventions and decided that the community feeling at cons and the apparent reality there is what they prefer to mundane reality, so they choose a variety they like, whether that be portraying themselves as demigods, Klingons, Wookies, Jedi-s, or whatever, and do their best to transform their entire lives into supporting and living that reality as if it were true. It's even more of an 'umbrella term' than Paganism is, although in a more 'fringe-ey' or 'out-there'-ish way....lol.

[Rain Gnosis]

Uh, I would just stop talking to them if I were you. Obviously they're refusing to stop bickering with you and actually discuss things maturely. You don't need to waste your time with people like that.

And that said, Otherkin are people who identify as partially non-human. They may consider themselves therianthropes, part fairy, vampires, etc. There's a thread on this somewhere here at MW, if you search for "therian" I think you might find it. Also check out http://www.otherkin.net/

And I really wouldn't call an Asatruar an Otherkin, were I you :)

[SacredWithin]

Thanks people for the clear-up on the "Otherkin". I feel a littel stupid, but all is good right? :fpeace: :lol:

[Crystal_Raye]

Uh, I would just stop talking to them if I were you. Obviously they're refusing to stop bickering with you and actually discuss things maturely. You don't need to waste your time with people like that.

And thats just what I think I'm going to do. They're obviously confused individuals (and probably fluffies to boot).

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

No, 'otherkin' is more of a lifestyle than a religion....kind of like a Pagan version of Buddhism - - - not in terms of beliefs but in the pervasiveness of how they live what they believe. 'Otherkin' are those who have been to Science Fiction Conventions and decided that the community feeling at cons and the apparent reality there is what they prefer to mundane reality, so they choose a variety they like, whether that be portraying themselves as demigods, Klingons, Wookies, Jedi-s, or whatever, and do their best to transform their entire lives into supporting and living that reality as if it were true. It's even more of an 'umbrella term' than Paganism is, although in a more 'fringe-ey' or 'out-there'-ish way....lol.
you're right that being otherkin (http://www.otherkin.net) is not a religion...

It's something you are. Has nothing to do w/ religion at all. You can be of any religion and be 'kin or therian.

But otherkin is simply a feeling that one's soul is not human, but something else; usually a type of mythical being. No that does not include Jedi..as Jedi are a sect of force sentative warriors that may be of any alien race :p and from what i've seen it has incredibly little to do with science fiction, and everything to do with mythology and high fantasy. personally, i've never met a 'kin who claimed to be a klingon or anything like that. Otherkin-ness is also similar, or a subcatagory of, theriantropy, therians however generally believe their soul to be that of an animal. they are also sometimes called were's.

While it's true that i'm sure some 'kin may try to transform their lives, as you put it, certainly not all of them do. Most otherkin live perfectly normal, productive lives, seeking only to better understand their souls, and what they once were.

[elfmage]

you're right that being otherkin (http://www.otherkin.net) is not a religion...

It's something you are. Has nothing to do w/ religion at all. You can be of any religion and be 'kin or therian.

But otherkin is simply a feeling that one's soul is not human, but something else; usually a type of mythical being. No that does not include Jedi..as Jedi are a sect of force sentative warriors that may be of any alien race :p and from what i've seen it has incredibly little to do with science fiction, and everything to do with mythology and high fantasy. personally, i've never met a 'kin who claimed to be a klingon or anything like that. Otherkin-ness is also similar, or a subcatagory of, theriantropy, therians however generally believe their soul to be that of an animal. they are also sometimes called were's.

While it's true that i'm sure some 'kin may try to transform their lives, as you put it, certainly not all of them do. Most otherkin live perfectly normal, productive lives, seeking only to better understand their souls, and what they once were.


Yep.

Also, it sounds to me that these people are arguing using different definitions, which is,of course, a great way to lose an arguement. Get them to give you THEIR definition of Pagan. Better yet, make them tell you precisely in what way Paganism is nto a religion, because it would appear that they are simply making claims without backing them up. So challenge them on it.

When it is all said and done, however, do you really want to waste your energy arguing with these people, when they are obviously not going to listen to you properly anyway?

[Carickah]

Yep.

Also, it sounds to me that these people are arguing using different definitions, which is,of course, a great way to lose an arguement. Get them to give you THEIR definition of Pagan. Better yet, make them tell you precisely in what way Paganism is nto a religion, because it would appear that they are simply making claims without backing them up. So challenge them on it.

:kooky: :bigblue: :achug:
Hmmmm, this sounds familiar....



k

[AlAskendir]

you're right that being otherkin (http://www.otherkin.net) is not a religion...

It's something you are. Has nothing to do w/ religion at all. You can be of any religion and be 'kin or therian.

But otherkin is simply a feeling that one's soul is not human, but something else; usually a type of mythical being. No that does not include Jedi..as Jedi are a sect of force sentative warriors that may be of any alien race :p and from what i've seen it has incredibly little to do with science fiction, and everything to do with mythology and high fantasy. personally, i've never met a 'kin who claimed to be a klingon or anything like that. Otherkin-ness is also similar, or a subcatagory of, theriantropy, therians however generally believe their soul to be that of an animal. they are also sometimes called were's.

While it's true that i'm sure some 'kin may try to transform their lives, as you put it, certainly not all of them do. Most otherkin live perfectly normal, productive lives, seeking only to better understand their souls, and what they once were.


Again, I am limited by the ones I have met and interacted with, but I'm not sure how else I should proceed. The ones I have met are (in order) 1 = a guy who is focusing his life on going to Burning Man each year, and considers himself an "Otherkin Yeti"; and 2 = a SF Con ex-fandom fanatic, who has decided that she is an "Otherkin Wookie" (but who knows and often speaks of fandom/ furry/ Otherkin cross-overs, one of whom is a Klingon).

[wakywitch]

......OR you could just direct them to Mystic Wicks.

[Lunacie]

I read a few pages and they just seem... young, to me. So one person strongly disagreed with you, and one person agreed with that one. Big deal, there was another person who backed you up in your definition. Some people are just ignorant and choose to stay that way. You can't convince people like that of anything.

But you never know how many lurkers read your explanation and learned something, eh? ;)

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

I didn't read the thread, so I'm not taking sides here. =)

I wouldn't call Paganism 'a' religion. That seems kinda like calling someone Judeo-Christian... religions that are of a pagan persuasion are similar, but they all have wildly varying ethics and views of the divine. But that's just my opinion... tum te tum...

[Draco Celtae]

Whether they are right or wrong (im inclinded to say their position is horribly tunnel-visioned)...those people were very rude in jumping down your throat like that.
Heres what you do, being the freindly, loving pagan im sure you are...
Take the dictionary to them...open it to "pagan"...and bludgeon them over the head repeatedly.
...or just let them remain in their diluted fantasy world...either way its all good.