Celtic Resource

[MagickalSummer]

Hi All-

I am looking for a good, reliable, and informative resource for the Celtic Pantheon. I have Celtic Myth and Magick by Edain McCoy. I was just wondering if that is a good one, or if there is something better out there. Thanks!

~Summer

[Morgandria]

YMMV - but I wouldn't recommend Edain McCoy's celtic stuff to anyone - she fails the Potato Test.

Also, there is no one "Celtic" pantheon - there were 6 Celtic Nations, each with their own pantheon. It's easiest to find the Irish and Welsh pantheons, and you'll also find some Gaulish and Scottish deities listed in some places. You'll be able to look up "Celtic Gods and Goddesses" on Google, tho, and you'll find listings of them - but they'll be all jumbled up, not sorted by pantheon.

Good luck!

[MagickalSummer]

OK...now that I sound like a complete jerk...and feel really stupid... _inabox_

I guess I might as well keep asking dumb questions...

~What is the "potato test"

~I realized that "celtic" was made up of many different cultures, but not that each was its own pantheon, so I have learned something already.

I am thinking I would like to start with the Irish pantheon. So if anyone has any good resources I would appreciate you sharing. I don't trust a google search...

Thanks.

~Summer

[LittleRhiannon]

OK...now that I sound like a complete jerk...and feel really stupid... _inabox_

I guess I might as well keep asking dumb questions...

~What is the "potato test"



If anyone claims that the Irish worshipped a potato goddess, or otherwise engaged in activities involving potatos before the 1700s, they have failed the potato test. Potatos came from the New World.

For Ireland, I would reccomend "The Tain" translated by Thomas Kinsella. After that, the Lady Gregory books "Gods and Fighting Men" and "Cuchulain of Muirthemne".

[MagickalSummer]

Thanks so much for the explaination and recommendations. Off to see if I can get info on the books. I am looking to absorb as much info as possible!

~Summer

[Seren_]

~I realized that "celtic" was made up of many different cultures, but not that each was its own pantheon, so I have learned something already.

Many cultures, and many languages too...Although they're all "Celtic", they also have very different mythologies and gods, and different histories too. There are similarities between them all, but it helps to look at the differences too.

Anyway, mythology is a good place to start if you want to know more about a pantheon. Especially for the Irish side of things, Mary Jones (http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/irish.html) is an excellent resource for mythology. The Mythological Cycle (which involves the Tuatha De Danaan, probably what you're most interested in) and the Ulster Cycle (where the TDD occasionally crop up, and also encompasses the Tain Bo Cualigne (http://vassun.vassar.edu/~sttaylor/Cooley/) story) will probably be of most interest to you, but the Historical Cycle is also interesting too.

She also has an encyclopedia which is OK...one of the more reliable sources of information available on the web...but it's worth investing in some books if you're really interested.

I would recommend Miranda Green as a good author on the subject from a more academic point of view, and she's an easy read so it's not too dry and academic; McCoy and Conway (for example) are very prolific pagan authors, but they aren't very good at research or history. While they can provide a more accessible way of finding your path from a pagan perspective, they do write a lot of crap on occasion...like the ancient Irish worshipping a potato goddess (well, one of them wrote it, anyway). So it's good to get a broader perspective at least.

[-Sky-]

Hi All-

I am looking for a good, reliable, and informative resource for the Celtic Pantheon. I have Celtic Myth and Magick by Edain McCoy. I was just wondering if that is a good one, or if there is something better out there. Thanks!

~Summer

Merry Meet,
I'm really interested in celtic resources too and thanks everybody for the suggestions!
But I disagree about "Celtic Myth and Magic" by Eddain McCoy.I own the book too and I love it!It might be that I am not fully experienced and although she is definately wrong about the potatoe thing(lol it's so funny) she might have to offer valuable information concerning the Craft.In her book I've found some very helpful rituals which include my dieties.
I believe that our wisdom concerning the Craft comes from within and although someone may offer historically inacurrate info,she might be able to help someone develop spiritually.In this book I love the wide dictionary of Gods and Goddesses because she includes info on heroes like Arthur too and she also notes the magical uses and correspondences for every deity.
I also feel connected to Eddain McCoy because she mentiones in her book the Queen Maeve is one of her patron deities and Maeve is also one of my Goddesses.
Finally,the author includes some really interesting pathworkings in her book.And I've learned to read everything before I decide for it so I will read it through and see what I can learn.
I also have "Clan of the Goddess" by Brondwin but haven't started this one yet.
There is also another veeery good book about Celtic Women called "The Silver Wheel" which talks about the four phases a woman passes by.I highly recommend it.

Blessed Be,
~Anna

[Morgandria]

My feelings on people who write books using poor research and ignoring factual history while alking about historical goddesses is simple - they shouldn't. If you can't get your facts straight, it really lowers your credibility. I'm not interested in the opinion or the unsubstantiated personal gnosis of a woman who decided it was appropriate to publish that the Irish worshipped poatoes or carved pumpkins or harvested mistletoe in their early history! It's misleading, and there are less educated readers out there who are going to read this, not know or care about actual fact, and continue spreading misinformation.

They don't let teachers in classrooms full of young impressionable minds teach that there was no holocaust, because that's their personal belief and it might help others out there have a spiritual growth moment in believing that to. People get into lots of trouble for that.

It should work the same way with authors who spread personal opinion or revisionist history as truth, but there's no way to really get someone into trouble as an author of such things. So what can we do? Not recommend the author's books, tell people what's wrong with them. That's all we can do. Not everyone is gonna agree, obviously...but that's the joy of opinion. We don't have to agree. We should acknowledge, tho, that the books themselves are flawed.

If the authors of these books would put in, right at the start that this is their opinions, and might be different from historical fact, I'd feel a little better about it. But they don't, and then you have people (people who aren't reading critically, mind you) who believe that their word IS fact, and there was an ancient Irish Potato Goddess, and that everything the author says is HOW WICCA IS.

Plainly put, it's irresponsible.

So I don't read, or recommend authors with poor research or revisionist history.
-M.

[skilly-nilly]

I like Miranda Green too :D

I am an Irish Traditionalist (sort of a Re-Constructionist), and my advice is to read lots and lots of folk-lore. IMO, just knowing the names and 'attributes' of a list of Gods/Goddesses/Heros doesn't really allow you to communicate with them. I think it's necessary to understand the World-View that those figures and the people who venerated them lived inside of, and folklore assists that.

Here are a few sources:
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/corpus/Carmina/

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/celtic/articles.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7326/celtic.html

http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/foamycustard/index.htm

The Carmina Gadelica is, of course, Catholic; but my belief is that when Ireland converted many of the Druids went into the Culdee Church's monasteries or became holy hermits.

Some of the other sources are not strictly 'Celtic' but you can browse around and pick what appeals.

Although I would never say that one shouldn't read the Tain, the 3 sad stories, the Ulster cycle, the Red Branch stories; I feel just as strongly that the 'feel' of the people is also expressed in the stories of the common people---if you go to the library there will be numerous books of folklore. Some is profound and some is just a bunch of extended jokes---but I don't think that even the White-Robed Druids were serious all the time.

"Celtic' (I can only speak with confidence about the Irish, but I think that other Celtic Nations have some similarities here) religious thought is fairly different from Wicca---Honor and Loyalty are vital elements, Harming none and Niceness are not. Personal opinion and argumentation are encouraged, but tribal concerns outweigh personal ones. Irish mysticism places great emphasis on trance and personal communication, and Deities are perceived as immanent and the real world as largely animistic.

Happy perusing _catroll_ , skily-nilly

[Seren_]

The Carmina Gadelica is, of course, Catholic;

And Scottish, rather than Irish... ;) Though originating from the Highlands and Islands, it's probably safe to say "a law unto themselves", more than anything else.

But I disagree about "Celtic Myth and Magic" by Eddain McCoy.I own the book too and I love it!It might be that I am not fully experienced and although she is definately wrong about the potatoe thing(lol it's so funny) she might have to offer valuable information concerning the Craft.In her book I've found some very helpful rituals which include my dieties.

I would point out that she is wrong on more than just the issue of the potato goddess, in a historical/"academic" sense - much more; and to my mind, this must surely raise questions about her rituals and beliefs...From a purely personal point of view, I would add.

"Celtic" implies cultural, and then the whole thing gets very complicated. In all my time looking into the various paths, I don't think any other "label" has incited the passion and enthusiasm that anything "Celtic" has. It has been taken up by so many different kinds of people, and the very current politics and cultural/religious issues involved also help to make it all a bit of a hot "potato" (sorry).

Personally, I would agree with Morgandria on this one. UPG is one thing, writing a book based on UPG as fact is another. My problem with books like McCoy is that she has a tendency to state things as "true fact" when they aren't necessarily so. Some things like potato goddesses are easy to spot, but what else is there?

[MagickalSummer]

I am learning so much just from this thread. Thanks so much everyone, this is very interesting. I am soaking it all in...

~Summer

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

If anyone claims that the Irish worshipped a potato goddess, or otherwise engaged in activities involving potatos before the 1700s, they have failed the potato test. Potatos came from the New World.

For Ireland, I would reccomend "The Tain" translated by Thomas Kinsella. After that, the Lady Gregory books "Gods and Fighting Men" and "Cuchulain of Muirthemne".

You can find Táin Bó Cúalnge and the Cath Maige Tuired (Second Battle of Mag Tuired) as well as Lady Gregory's books online at Sacred Texts (http://www.sacred-texts.com).

I'm with the people who will tell you to stay away from such authors as Edain McCoy, DJ Conway, and Douglas Munroe. They are unscruplous authors who obviously haven't bothered to do their research and are just out to make a buck in my opinion. If they can't get something as easily researched and discovered as history right, who knows what else is wrong with their books. I certainly wouldn't put my religion and spirituality in the hands of people like that. :thumbsdow

[nia]

oooof, so much valuable info contained within such a small space. this is the first time in ages that ive been reading through and actually shouting at the screen - generally good stuff, i hasten to add.
i would get so confused trying to make the pooter quote all the relevant passages, and accredit the authors - you know who you are, and im not interntionally being mena. i just cant work the evil machines very well.

i consider myself to be partially celt, due to blood, and the fact that i live in wales, and work with celtic deities.

a couple of monir points to kick off:
miranda green does seem to know her stuff, and she also seems to speak from experience as well as academic research.
dj conway has something to offer, but i wouldnt recommend reading it until you have a reasonable background in the subject, and have the ability to sift the difference between fact and opinion. the mix is complex and subtle.

'silver wheel' was mentioned. just as something to note, the direct translation from welsh of the name arianrhod is silver wheel.

and the relationship between wicca and the celts. hmmmm. i am not wiccan, and so cannot claim any deep understanding of the belief structure or morals that accompany it. but the rule of thumb of 'and it harm none' seems to have precious little to do with the celts. home family, loyalty, honour, revenge, justice, all seem to be very evident in the everyday lifestyle. i know very little about the irish, but the scottsh clan wars are legendary (litterally in some cases). and alsthough he was only 1000 yrs ago, and the film is fantastically historically inaccurate, everyone knows the story of william wallace (braveheart, mel gibson). not a sweet, fluffy man. oh no. and it harm none? blow that. i want scotland. i am going to have scotland. and the english are going to know about it. and if they resist, more fool them. boudicca and the romans is another example, a little earlier but not really in the time of mythology. what a woman.

and for a good source of welsh myth, read the mabinogion. there are some good english translations around. it is THE book of welsh mythology.

[MagickalSummer]

Thank you all! So much knowledge. I have a lot of these books on my Yule list :)

~Summer

[Morgaine_cla]

Greetings!

What an interesting thread...

I am particularly interested in the idea of using modern academic material as a tool for learning about the Gods and I'd like to make a couple of comments on this, if I may...

The more I learn about history, the more difficult I find making a true assessment of what is or is not historically accurate. For instance, there is a growing awareness in modern archaeology that most of the history taught in American schools and colleges is incorrect and unsupported by the evidence we now have ("now" being a key concept here). However, mounting evidence has not persuaded old-school US Archaeologists who have committed themselves in writing to specific theories as 'fact', and thus have a vested interest in preserving erroneous ideas. Nor is there a whisper of change in what is taught in American schools. Because most of the general public does not read archaeological journals they remain in blissful ignorance and, were you to confront them with the truth, most would consider you a crackpot who doesn't know (or willfully ignores) 'the facts'.

Every government since Rome (if not before) has changed history to forward and justify its own agenda, facilitate the conquering of new lands, and to ease its own conscience. In my own lifetime, the histories of Native Americans, Suffragettes, and People of Color have been changed several times. Therefore, at the risk of being stoned, I would suggest that it is probable that we are taught very little real history and cannot 'know' what actually happened unless we were there to witness it ourselves, from all perspectives. But this does not mean we cannot discover it...

Some people argue that "we have to believe something and historians are the authorities". I would disagree. Who validates the historians' authority if not the State, the very source of propaganda? Do we not have our own minds? Our own spiritual and blood ancestors? If we can suspend our need to arrive at a specific conclusion, we can discover the truth for ourselves -- much as the archaeologists did, but being Druids we have a tremendous advantage. If we truly believe as we say, we can ask the ancestors and then look at the evidence and see what it supports and what it does not support. The more of us that independently 'see' the same thing, and the more verification we find, the liklier it is to have a basis in truth. Needless to say, this also means putting aside 'absolute answers' and be willing to embrace an ever evolving truth to accommodate our ever-increasing knowledge. That is the path I suggest we take in discovering what history has to tell us.

That said, I do not think there is any book by anyone, anywhere that one can just pick up and absorb as the "absolute fact" or authority about anything. Especially not about the Gods, and especially not if the author has never consciously encountered such a being. In the form of Druidry I follow the Gods are not "aspects" of anything, nor are they unchanging, nor immortal. (If they were, they would be unnatural!) So for me at least, the situation is rather more complex than it might appear at the outset. It would be almost impossible to put the truth into a book and have anyone who had not already experienced it understand it. Not to mention there are all sorts of beings out there who are not 'Gods', so how is a seeker to tell one from the other? This is what makes real mentors and Groves so valuable.

I think we've grown far too reliant on the written word and 'ultimate authorities', personally. Looking back, I could have read all the books in the world on the Tradition I follow (if they existed) and I wouldn't have got one jot closer to understanding its real essence. In the end, I had to come face to face with living mentors and immerse in authentic experiences of my path before I really could know and feel its unique energies. Now that I am myself a mentor I spend half of my time trying to persuade seekers to let go of what they think they know from books; because if they do not they will see not the Tradition I am teaching, but only their own reinvention of it as what they already 'know' (which is why the books I write are for those whom I know are working face to face with mentors).

All of which may sound very discouraging (and possibly self-serving). I intend neither... Books can have a limited value. If you want to know the Gods read not the opinions of modern authors, but the oldest versions of the myths you can find, translated as closely to the source texts as possible (the Jones brothers' translation of the Mab being one example). When you have read them with modern eyes, try to see them through the eyes of the people who made them. Exploring the cultures from which the 'original' stories arose will help you to do this. Remember that the further away you get from the story's culture of origin, the more likely that the telling has been reshaped to another purpose that obscures the story's original intention. This is true even of the source texts, so your search for historical truth through reading will resemble the peeling of an onion: each peeling reveals another layer of truth, yet one may see the onion itself only by seeing all the layers overlaid one upon the other.

Once you are familiar with the myths and the basics of their originating culture(s), find a good mentor or a Grove near you where you might have a first-hand experience of them, or start your own learning circle. Return to work with the same group, but also explore different groups. Notice how the same Gods feel slightly different from group to group... and ask yourself why this might be?

With this question comes the beginning of understanding.

So these are my thoughts and suggestions. May you find them helpful, and thank you all for your wisdom sharing.

Bendithion

[Nitefalle]

I would also like to note that an issue that I have faced personally in researching "Celtic" deities is the issue of widely-known versus local/tribal deities. I often run across a tiny footnote or obscure reference that names a god of great interest to me, and there is no info whatsoever out there on it. It doesn't mean the god didn't exist, but that perhaps only one tribe worshipped said deity, or that the deity was tied to a specific location and later fell out of worship. That is when I whip out the UPG and try and meditate with them directly, so don't be discouraged! Follow what interests you and, when in doubt, experiment for yourself.

PS - Someone mentioned CC Brondwin in here earlier...I own one of her books and, while I personally enjoy it due to the guided meditations in there, I wouldn't exactly call it "celtic" or historically accurate in any sense of the word. Take what you will from it.

[Fiamma]

Hi All-

I am looking for a good, reliable, and informative resource for the Celtic Pantheon. I have Celtic Myth and Magick by Edain McCoy. I was just wondering if that is a good one, or if there is something better out there. Thanks!

~Summer

Here's a list of recommended primary source material that I got from http://www.adf.org

some of the texts are available here:
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/

Lebor Gabala Erren: Book of Invasions (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1870166442/arndraiocfeinadr/) (out of print; web (http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/lebor.htm))
The Second Battle of Mag Tuired (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1419181777/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Elizabeth A. Gray, trans. (web1 (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/irish/2nd_moytura.html), web2 (http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~dc920/tured.html), web3 (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T300010/index.html))
Book of the Dun Cow (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1855001578/arndraiocfeinadr/) - R.I. Best, Osborn Bergin, trans. (out of print; web (http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/lu.html))
The Tain (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0192803735/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Thomas Kinsella, Louis Le Brocquy, trans.
Early Irish Myths and Sagas (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140443975/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Jeffrey Gantz, trans.
A Celtic Miscellany (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140442472/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Kenneth Hurlstone Jackson, ed.
The Voyage of Bran (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1897853203/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Kuno Meyer, trans. (out of print; web1 (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/branvoyage.html), web2 (http://celt.net/celtic/myths/bran.html))
Old Celtic Romances: Tales from Irish Mythology (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486416097/arndraiocfeinadr/) - P. W. Joyce, trans.
The Feast Of Bricriu (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/141916208X/arndraiocfeinadr/) - George Henderson, trans.
Fianaigecht: Finn and His Fiana (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1855001721/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Kuno Meyer, trans. (out of print)
Acallam Na Senorach: Tales of the Elders of Ireland (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0192839187/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Ann Dooley, Harry Roe, trans.
The Four Ancient Books of Wales (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0404175848/arndraiocfeinadr/) - William F. Skene, trans. (out of print; web (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/fab/index.htm))
Buile Suibhne: The Frenzy of Suibhne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1855000261/arndraiocfeinadr/) - J.G. O'Keefe, trans. (out of print; web (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T302018/index.html))
The Celtic Heroic Age (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1891271091/arndraiocfeinadr/) - John T. Koch, John Carey, eds.
Ancient Irish Tales (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0389202541/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Tom Peete Cross, Clark Harris Slover, eds. (out of print)
The Mabinogi, and Other Medieval Welsh Tales (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520034147/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Patrick K. Ford, trans.
Trioedd Ynys Prydein: The Welsh Triads (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/070830690X/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Rachel Bromwich, ed. (out of print; web (http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/triads1.html))
Carmina Gadelica (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0863155200/arndraiocfeinadr/) - Alexander Carmichael (out of print; web (http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/corpus/Carmina/))

[Fiamma]

Merry Meet,
I'm really interested in celtic resources too and thanks everybody for the suggestions!
But I disagree about "Celtic Myth and Magic" by Eddain McCoy.I own the book too and I love it!It might be that I am not fully experienced and although she is definately wrong about the potatoe thing(lol it's so funny) she might have to offer valuable information concerning the Craft.In her book I've found some very helpful rituals which include my dieties.
I believe that our wisdom concerning the Craft comes from within and although someone may offer historically inacurrate info,she might be able to help someone develop spiritually.In this book I love the wide dictionary of Gods and Goddesses because she includes info on heroes like Arthur too and she also notes the magical uses and correspondences for every deity.
I also feel connected to Eddain McCoy because she mentiones in her book the Queen Maeve is one of her patron deities and Maeve is also one of my Goddesses.
Finally,the author includes some really interesting pathworkings in her book.And I've learned to read everything before I decide for it so I will read it through and see what I can learn.
I also have "Clan of the Goddess" by Brondwin but haven't started this one yet.
There is also another veeery good book about Celtic Women called "The Silver Wheel" which talks about the four phases a woman passes by.I highly recommend it.

Blessed Be,
~Anna


magical uses for deities? See...that's something that a lot of people have problems with. The gods are not for our "use".

[Darbla]

Irish Literature, Mythology, Folklore and Drama
http://www.luminarium.org/mythology/ireland/


Irish Witchcraft From An Irish Witch by Lora o'Brien
http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Witchcraft-Witch-Lora-OBrien/dp/1564147592/sr=1-1/qid=1166921193/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0368459-2382572?ie=UTF8&s=books


Lora O'Brien's site http://www.irishwitchcraft.com/

Darbla

[Morr]

Merry Meet,
I'm really interested in celtic resources too and thanks everybody for the suggestions!
But I disagree about "Celtic Myth and Magic" by Eddain McCoy.I own the book too and I love it!It might be that I am not fully experienced and although she is definately wrong about the potatoe thing(lol it's so funny) she might have to offer valuable information concerning the Craft.In her book I've found some very helpful rituals which include my dieties.
I believe that our wisdom concerning the Craft comes from within and although someone may offer historically inacurrate info,she might be able to help someone develop spiritually.In this book I love the wide dictionary of Gods and Goddesses because she includes info on heroes like Arthur too and she also notes the magical uses and correspondences for every deity.
I also feel connected to Eddain McCoy because she mentiones in her book the Queen Maeve is one of her patron deities and Maeve is also one of my Goddesses.
Finally,the author includes some really interesting pathworkings in her book.And I've learned to read everything before I decide for it so I will read it through and see what I can learn.
I also have "Clan of the Goddess" by Brondwin but haven't started this one yet.
There is also another veeery good book about Celtic Women called "The Silver Wheel" which talks about the four phases a woman passes by.I highly recommend it.

Blessed Be,
~Anna



Attributes, uses, corrospondences -- All Wiccan.

Celtic culture -- Irish, Scottish, Welsh, etc -- Have NOTHING to do with Wiccan or (modern) Witchcraft.

Celts had no ""four corners"", they didnt use the Gods and Goddesses for spells of any sort.

The Gods are exactly it -- Gods.
They are Divine beings, Ancestors, Land Spirits worshipped in awe and respect, honored and celebrated in many ways.

The Druids of the Ancient Celts used deeper ways of ""magic"", if you will, than today's popular spells, corners, corrospondences, etc. They trained for years to no end before they earned the title of Druid. Not to mention, they werent only the Priests of the Tuath/clan, they were very scholarly and educated.

In my humble opinion, even if you are not a Celtic Recon, but follow a more modern path (such as Wicca) yet have Celtic influences -- Research the Ancient Celtic Culture AND Religion before you go ahead and worship Gods, Goddesses and a culture in a disrespectful way.