The issue with minors and Pagan Education

[MorningDove030202]

I guess this is a rant....


As you all probably know, I'm a huge fan of www.wiccaforbeginners, and all the other educational stuff the Dragon Tradition of Wicca provides online..... I'm just frustrated that they put the 18 and older "test" on all their materials. I mean is Wicca realy something we need to keep kids away from? I know many groups don't let in anyone under 18 without parent's permission and in a group that makes sence, but shouldn't online information be free and available to anyone of any age? Why do some people act like we shouldn't help Wiccan Teens, like there is something dangerous about it. Other religions don't protect their info from minors! LOL Why should we? It seams like a double standard to me!

What are your thoughts about this? Check out the link if you don't understand what I mean!

Dove

[Sasha318]

Wicca isn't something that I keep my kids from, so I agree with you in principle. I'm sure it's a CYA type of thing, to keep from the charge that Wicca and Harry Potter are degrading the nation's children to a bunch of sniveling, goat-butchering hedonists (not that there's anything completely wrong with hedonism, but ykwim).

It's kind of like when certain family members find out that we're Wiccan and say, "Surely you're still raising the kids in church, though, right? It's one thing to play around with magic and another to chance their ETERNAL SALVATION!"

So I think it's silly, but typical.

[banondraig]

they, or the people who run their servers, are trying to avoid getting sued, kind of like that crap in the '80s where some parents tried to sue Ozzy Osbourne because their kid tried to commit suicide after listening to the song "Suicide Solution". the song was against killing yourself, and really about how drinking will kill you, but there are a lot of stupid people out there.

[MorningDove030202]

Do you think it's wrong if I tell minors interested in Wicca to go ahead and look at the site? Essentialy I'd be telling them to lie. As it is now, I suggest to minors that they look at the site with their parents, or with their permission.

Dove

[kiara]

Do you think it's wrong if I tell minors interested in Wicca to go ahead and look at the site? Essentialy I'd be telling them to lie. As it is now, I suggest to minors that they look at the site with their parents, or with their permission.

Dove


Well, since they give the disclaimer, they are covered. Nothing they can do if people ignore their warnings. But, really, a disclaimer for a Wicca site? That's a bit amusing and sad. I haven't seen a warning on a Christian or Buddhist or Hinduism site. I think some people look for reasons to get in a snit.

[MorningDove030202]

Well, since they give the disclaimer, they are covered. Nothing they can do if people ignore their warnings. But, really, a disclaimer for a Wicca site? That's a bit amusing and sad. I haven't seen a warning on a Christian or Buddhist or Hinduism site. I think some people look for reasons to get in a snit.


That's exactly my point!!

Dove

[Lunamoth]

I haven't seen a warning on a Christian or Buddhist or Hinduism site. I think some people look for reasons to get in a snit.

That's such a good point and I never thought about it that way before. What's good for the goose and all that...

Wow. It kind of puts some things into perspective. Not that what I'm seeing is all that heartening, but yeah.

Can it in some way, inadvertantly, suggest that what is on the site is inappriate for kids under 18, putting that disclaimer on there? In a way, work against its own intention? What would be the consequence of simply having the information available without regard for age constraints? Many sites don't bother with the age thing, after all.

[MorningDove030202]

Personaly I think misinformation is more dangerous than the good information.... I think it does suggest that we have something to hide, which we really don't. The information is good, and not dangerous. It doesn't even realy teach anything about how to be Wiccan, just what Wicca is. I know alot of places have a disclaimer like "This site is about witchcraft, which may not be your thing, so don't look at it if you might find it offensive." But to have the pasword thingy...that's going a bit far.

Dove

[bshore]

Well, we all know how teens are: tell them they're too young to see/do something, and they just want it more. I think that there should be good information available to anyone whose curious. If some 14 year old asks an experienced practicer of magic (Wiccan or not) and they refuse to tell them anything, but the unscrupulous weirdo down the street thinks nothing of misinforming a willing mind, which is more dangerous? I think we're being too careful. How will these beautiful traditions continue to grow if young, curious minds are turned away?

[Tullip Troll]

As a parent I do not mind my kids learning Wicca or pagan ways...I do worry about them hanging out with strangers or getting bad info. If my child came home and told me he/she was invited to hang out with some adults to learn ritual ... I would have issues...as they are just learning I would hate to think someone might talk them into doing things they think might be part of the norm...ie Three fold kiss etc...nope that would be wrong...also as an adult I don't want every teenager calling me and asking me to do ritual or hanging out at my place, only to have their parents freak on me in ignorance that I am trying to take their child into satans fold...

It would be nice if the was a pagan sunday school so to speak...but there isn't.

Again it's the strangers I worry about and I myself have met some pretty strange pagans...but then Ive met some pretty crazy Christians...

Mhera

[Pandoras]

I mean is Wicca realy something we need to keep kids away from? I know many groups don't let in anyone under 18 without parent's permission and in a group that makes sence, but shouldn't online information be free and available to anyone of any age? Why do some people act like we shouldn't help Wiccan Teens, like there is something dangerous about it. Other religions don't protect their info from minors! LOL Why should we? It seams like a double standard to me!
I agree with you completely. Not only do other religions NOT turn away teens, but they welcome them. They understand the importance of passing on traditions to future generations. I think it's a bit silly for the websites to try to impose these restrictions (especially since they're not really enforceable), but it's a sad necessity for covens and other groups.

[Ailinea]

This is an interesting issue. On one hand, I definitely agree that we (speaking as a Wiccan, since that is a Wiccan site) have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. We're not doing anything wrong or illegal, so it would be great to pass what we know on to younger generations. However, I also understand that webmasters may feel the need to cover their butts when it comes to minors accessing their sites when parents may disapprove.

As far as the Wicca For Beginners site goes, my thought is that putting a password and making people jump through hoops to access the information (I haven't really looked at it, so I don't know how big or numerous those hoops are) is a bit extreme. I agree that what they should do instead is put a disclaimer on the site. One that you have to "read" (because we ALL read the licensing agreements and readme files and terms of service ALL the time, right? ;) ) before you can enter the main part of the site. I hate flash pages (you know, the pretty doorway with an image and a "click here to enter") on websites because I'm impatient and don't want to have to click on an extra page to get to the content of a site. But, having an index page with information about the site, then a disclaimer page you have to go through to get to the main portion, THEN the real table of contents--well, that would be hoops enough for me, plus it would give the webmasters a potential butt-covering from irate parents. Then stick a cookie on there that once a person has clicked "I Agree," they don't have to "read" it again.

And what would such a disclaimer say? Something along the lines of, "I understand that I am about to access a site on Wicca, a Neo-Pagan religion that is often associated with Witchcraft. I do so of my own free will, and do hereby claim responsibility for what I learn and my actions hereafter." You know, the basic agreement schpiel, putting the responsibility on the reader.

After all, that's the main lesson I think people should learn (and many tend to skip over) when they decide they want to become Wiccan: taking responsibility for their own actions.

[MorningDove030202]

It would be nice if the was a pagan sunday school so to speak...but there isn't.
Mhera


I strongly feel that covens should start providing Pagan sunday school for their members kids....but that's just me expecting groups to be profestional!

Dove

[Jenett]

This is one of the places where the gap between the goals of older forms (particualarly British Traditional Wicca) and eclectic Wiccan practices show up.

As far as 'other religions don't keep stuff from teens' - well, sometimes they do. A lot of stuff Catholic priests learn in seminary isn't very available to teens or even adult Catholics without quite a bit of work. Some of this is specific to pastoral ministry (counselling, etc.) but some of it has to do with theology, doctrinal interpretation, ritual, and other stuff. (The same is true of other religious traditions, too.)

A number of trad forms are limited to adults for a variety of reasons. Some involve stuff that can get into serious legal issues for minors (nudity, as well as binding and scourging in some cases). Some include fairly blunt discussion of issues relating to sexuality. (I'm not talking explicit stuff here, as much as an assumption that people have had sex, maybe experimented a bit, and have those experiences to draw on.)

Anyway, some of the trads in question also have as part of their goal triggering a specific kind of initiatory experience. This is, for a lot of people, *distracting* for at least a month or two, while they sort out what it means to them. For a lot of people, stuff may shift in their relationships, their priorities, things like that.

This is often tied in with significant commitments or oaths (something we generally don't ask minors to take). That's why I mention the distinction with Catholics and priests in seminary above. But this kind of experience can also provide a big bump in stuff teenagers should be focusing on (school, sorting out their lives in various ways so they have good options open to them for future education, jobs, whatever.)

One bad semester in high school can have a lot of effect on your options for post-high-school. (Especially if there isn't a socially accepted and explainable reason for it: people make allowances for 'my father died' or 'my parents were in the middle of a messy divorce',and you can explain those things quickly and clearly to all sorts of people - guidance counsellor, interviewer, on a college app, whatever. It's much harder to explain an initatory experience in a religion that many people aren't very familiar with.)

These methods also often include some kinds of abstract thought and interaction that not all teens are ready for yet: this has to do with psychological development. Part of this has to do with *interest* (you're not likely to want to spend a lot of time on something that doesn't mean much to you), part of it has to do with how you approach the topic.

Most of these traditions are also designed to teach adults - and teaching adults, and teaching teenagers is different. They have some different priorities. They've got some different kinds of flexibility about how they approach a subject.

And finally, they're designed for close, personal, ongoing interaction in a setting where people can deal with their own shadow, personal bugbears and such. Much stuff in these traditions is passed orally, not through written text, but by experience and talking and trying stuff out under the teacher's guidance. This makes them difficult to impossible to teach at a distance.

So, a number of older established trads don't teach online.

This means that the online schools tend to offer a combination of things:

* They often don't include stuff that's specifically problematic for teens (plus, reading about something briefly that may be part of a tradition isn't a problem in most cases: it's directly experiencing it or being around it (i.e. nudity) that is often the legal issue.)

* They're limited to what can be taught, experienced, and evaluated online: talented teachers who are extremely comfortable online can do a lot, but there are a number of things in some paths that require or are *much* easier with face-to-face interaction. Plus, not everyone has the skills to be a capable online teacher, even for fairly straightforward material.

* It's often a one-to-many teaching approach, rather than the more common one in small coven groups, of either one-to-one or few-to-few (few teachers working with roughly the same number of students.) This also changes some things in how you teach and evaluate what someone's learned.

(Be honest here: when you've been in school, how easy was it to coast in a larger class, if something was hard or boring to you? If you've ever been in a private lesson or very small (2-5 person) class, it was probably a lot harder to get away with not knowing something, not having done homework fully, etc.)

Given all of this, it's quite clear to me that the end goals are somewhat different, and the methods are *very* different.

I think a lot of the online schools don't necessarily need to have the same restrictions on teens (they're usually not teaching stuff where there are specific other issues), *except* for the aspect of providing religious instruction without parental consent.

Laws on this one vary, people's willingness to take a chance on it varies too. If you're comfortable assisting teens (and are aware of the legal situation in your state, the content you're recommending, etc.) then that's your choice to make.

*However*, I think it's also important to remember that the online schools are teaching something that often doesn't bear a lot of resemblence to British Traditional Wicca. This isn't always a bad thing, but it's good to compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

Take it (and recommend it) for what it is. Why is someone teaching something? What are their goals? How has their system or teaching worked over time? How will it benefit the student? Will learning something this way make it harder to reach other goals down the road? Is it suited to a specific person's circumstances and needs?

[PoisonIvy]

Well,young children go to church and are taught the ways of the catholics,methodists,baptist,mormon,jew,etc.... and that's ok right? So why not pagan? I was brought up in a christian household but was taught things,little by little,that were not "church" related. For example,they didn't teach me in sunday school how to tell when it's gonna rain,the best time for planting(according to the weather and the moon),how to make my own home remedies,and so on and so on. My aunt raises cows and she will not let the bulls be castrated without saying a prayer over them because she's afraid that if she doesn't the meat will go bad.
Sorry! My point is....The reason(most of us) left mother England in the first place was to be able to practice whatever religion we wanted,right? So why is it ok to raise your child in any religion you want except any religion that is not accepted? BTW witchcraft is now officially accepted by the courts in the U.S. as a religion.
Blessed Be!

[MorningDove030202]

I understand that religious educational materials need to be "age apropreate" and the web site I used www.wiccaforbeginners.com isn't realy an "online school". It doesn't even teach how to be Wiccan, it describes what Wicca is. I just feel that any Witch Tradition should have some basic level of information (Wicca 101 or less) available to teens without the hastle of "oh minors we can't help out". Also there should be something available to parents who are members of a tradition for their kids to do, learn, earn, participate in, etc....like a Jr First Degree or something like that.

Dove

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Actually it is illegal to teach any religion to a minor without parental consent. So personaly I think it's great that they do have the it set up so that you must be 18 to enter (I'm assuming that it can be waived if a parent contacts the site owner and gives permission for their child to access the site). Regardless of the religion I would have problems with someone teaching my child a religion, or even providing information to them about a religion, without my permission. I understand kids are curious and will want to get into that sort of thing by themselves or don't think they're parents will understand/be receptive, but it is not the responsability of strangers to teach my children about religion.

[FlyingBear]

In the covens I've been a HP for, when the question of minors came up we would usually send out a permission slip for a parent(s) to sign. We always met the parents in person and/or over the phone and would answer questions. The parents were welcome to come and particpate in circle if they were curious to what we did. It also helped us weed out those who were trying to shock and offend their authority figures, which spared us a lot of grief in the long run.

I agree that's it's sad that steps like that need to be taken, but until we're taken seriously a little prevention can go a long way.


:tub:

[MorningDove030202]

But don't kids deserve freedom of religion? We arn't talking about targeting kids, I'm talking about teens who are looking for info on Pagan religions. And those laws about teaching kids about religion were probably written before the internet. If I put up a site on Wicca without a 18 or older tests, how am I responsible for a teen looking at it? I didn't make them look at it, or hand it out to them..... Honestly, I wish the 18+ test wasn't necessary. If parents don't want their kids looking at wiccan websites, they should using filtering software, or watch their kids more cloesly online, check the history, etc! A Wiccan website shouldn't feel like they could get in legal trouble for this kind of thing.
Dove


Actually it is illegal to teach any religion to a minor without parental consent. So personaly I think it's great that they do have the it set up so that you must be 18 to enter (I'm assuming that it can be waived if a parent contacts the site owner and gives permission for their child to access the site). Regardless of the religion I would have problems with someone teaching my child a religion, or even providing information to them about a religion, without my permission. I understand kids are curious and will want to get into that sort of thing by themselves or don't think they're parents will understand/be receptive, but it is not the responsability of strangers to teach my children about religion.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

You make it sound like I think children shouldn't be allowed to basic rights. That's not at all what I'm saying. Yes they should have the freedom to follow a religion that makes them happy and fulfills them spiritually, but as the parent their education is my responsability. I don't care what the topic is. I won't send my children to school that is heavy on for example revisionist history (something we're seeing a lot of these days in public schools) or allow them to go to sex-ed classes that the school sponsors. So why then should I leave their religious education up to people or organizations that I know nothing about or may not agree with? I'm not saying they don't have the right to learn about Wicca, just that it needs to be done responsably and I don't find learning religion on the internet, especially one as misunderstood as Wicca, to be such. Religion has to be experienced, not just read about in an abstract manner.

Now I realize that most parents aren't as open as I am about religion, but if a child of mine were interested in Wicca then I would find out where an open circle was taking place nearby, talk to the people sponsoring it first to get a feel for them and then take my child to the circle. If they were interested in Judaism or Catholocism (gods forbid - there was a geasa placed on my family that none will ever be Catholic...to do so is to break the geasa and invite trouble, even possible death) I would do the same thing, by taking them to a service.

For those whose parents aren't open, well then I do feel that they should wait until there parents are no longer legally responsible for them. Some people may disagree with me, but I feel very strongly about this. I would have problems with people educating my child in manners I wouldn't approve, as would many other parents.

[MorningDove030202]

Ok I see your point from the Parent's perspecitive, but I'm looking at it from the Website Author's prospective. Why is it the website author's responsibility to protect their religious info from teens? Why should the author feel they need to make sure they don't get sued by parents who weren't watching what their kids were looking at online? Did you check the site I gave as an example? Why should they have to have that 18+ password test? There isn't any nudity, no profanity, nothing that isn't G rated, and not even info on how to be Wiccan, just what Wicca is. It's silly that they could get in trouble over a kid reading the site. I feel having that 18+ pasword test makes it look like there is something about Wicca that isn't apropreate for teens, like we have something to hide!
Dove

[FlyingBear]

Ok I see your point from the Parent's perspecitive, but I'm looking at it from the Website Author's prospective. Why is it the website author's responsibility to protect their religious info from teens? Why should the author feel they need to make sure they don't get sued by parents who weren't watching what their kids were looking at online? Did you check the site I gave as an example? Why should they have to have that 18+ password test? There isn't any nudity, no profanity, nothing that isn't G rated, and not even info on how to be Wiccan, just what Wicca is. It's silly that they could get in trouble over a kid reading the site. I feel having that 18+ pasword test makes it look like there is something about Wicca that isn't apropreate for teens, like we have something to hide!
Dove


I can tell you from personal experience that if there's a chance for a unfit parent to target you or your beliefs for their lack of communication and bad parenting skills with their minor, they will. I've had death threats from several unbalanced folks who were convinced that I was trying to brainwash their precious minor. I can bet that the author doesn't want to deal with that and I can't blame her/him.

I know there are a lot of mature, ready to learn kids out there but until they become legally responsible for themselves, the parents call the shots. Luckily there are some homes that have open, honest relationships between parent and child, but that's still seems to be the exception.

[~Elise~]

BUT--it is illegal to teach minor children without permission...that has been stated. Why WOULDN'T a website protect themselves? Why take the chance of getting sued and shut down and not be able to help ANYONE.

I do teach minor children, BUT ONLY with a signed permission slip and a face-to-face meeting with a parent and I discuss everything in advance, as someone else said that they do, as well.

Just because you feel that is wrong doesn't make it right to go out and disperse the information. You are running a big chance of a lawsuit with your pagan orphan list being open to minors without parental permission to join. But that is YOUR choice. This sent chills down my spine when I saw your very first mention of it on another thread, but I wasn't going to say anything. But since you brought up this thread...I'm giving MY opinion and MY opinion only.

NOW, that said, do I agree with the law? NO, I do not...but it is my DUTY to respect and abide by it. I think teens should be able to get the info they need. But--parents do have the right to say what knowledge their children do and do not have until they are 18, esp. when it applies to alternative religions.

Elise

[MorningDove030202]

How do you define teaching aimed at minors? I mean Christian web sites don't have a disclaimer that you have to be 18 to read their Christian materials! www.wiccaforbeginners.com doens't have anything there that looks like it's trying to atract minors, even if it didn't have the 18+ pasword thingy. How do you diferentiate between teaching to anyone and teaching to minors?

As far as my Orphans list goes, I clearly state that parents are welcome to join and that I will remove members from my list at the request of a parent. I think that's good enough.

Dove

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

How do you define teaching aimed at minors? I mean Christian web sites don't have a disclaimer that you have to be 18 to read their Christian materials! www.wiccaforbeginners.com doens't have anything there that looks like it's trying to atract minors, even if it didn't have the 18+ pasword thingy. How do you diferentiate between teaching to anyone and teaching to minors?

As far as my Orphans list goes, I clearly state that parents are welcome to join and that I will remove members from my list at the request of a parent. I think that's good enough.

Dove

I think all religious websites should have disclaimer and protected access. If the information is open for all to access that includes minors, regardless of who the information is directed it can still be used to teach minors. So I don't differentiate between the two. Minors are included in anyone.

[MorningDove030202]

I think all religious websites should have disclaimer and protected access. If the information is open for all to access that includes minors, regardless of who the information is directed it can still be used to teach minors. So I don't differentiate between the two. Minors are included in anyone.

1)The illegal part is "Teaching religion to a minor with out parent's permission" Which I argue a web site like www.wiccaforbeginners isn't doing. It's not targeting minors at alll, it shouldn't have to cover its but legaly.
2)The law was written before the internet and doesn't take into account the fact that someone can post public information that in order to read one has to seek it out for themselves.
3) My Pagan Orphans elist is targeting Wiccan teens and I would be willing to take their right to freedom of religion to court. I also feel that ultimatly the lack of info is worse than the information I provide at Pagan Orphans. And I can also site Tempest Smith as an example of why I rune Pagan Orphans! Maybe if she had a suport group, she wouldn't have comitted suicide! Ultimatly, I feel there is a big difference between inperson teaching and proviiding info online, when it comes to minors.

Dove

[Pandoras]

Can anyone point me to this law that states that teaching religion to minors without parental notification is illegal. I'd like to read it for myself. I've yet to see police officers standing outside churches or synagogues making sure that all the kids that enter have permission to do so.

People make it sound like if a kid shows interest in Wicca, the next day he/she is going to be dancing naked under the full moon with a coven. We're talking about basic information, which includes what Wiccans believe, what they do, and what they don't do. Information about religions - Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and even Wicca - can be found anywhere, from the internet, to a public library, to your local Barnes & Noble.

It's understood that a parent has the right to know and make decisions regarding the education of their children. That's not even an issue. I mean, who would disagree with that? I think the point that MorningDove is trying to make (and correct me if I'm wrong) is there is a double standard when it comes to "teaching" religion. It's acceptable to teach certain religions all over the internet and even in schools without any disclaimers or legal questions, but Wicca is seen as deviant and dangerous and as a result, children must be shielded from it.

[MorningDove030202]

Yes, that's my point. It's a double standard and my other point is that because we put disclaimers and 18+ rules on our information it makes it look like we are an inapropreate or dangerous religion for minors, it makes us look like we have something to hide, and we realy don't!

Dove

[Jenett]

Churches have been prosecuted for teaching religion to students without parental permission. (to varying degrees). There've been a couple of cases in the last few years (incidentally involving Christian churches.) I'm not finding stuff this morning for some reason, but it's out there.

I believe the relevant laws are usually at the state level, not federal. This is harder to search for, obviously, but it may give you somewhere to get started.

One reason many Pagans are very cautious is that they're much more vulnerable if someone does sue. People do still sometimes lose their jobs (or are made miserable at them) in some places if someone finds out they're Pagan. An individual doesn't have the financial resources of a larger church or denomination if someone presses suit. One charge, even if the person is eventually proven inncocent, can take a *lot* of money and time.

There's also the issue,as I pointed out, that traditional Wicca doesn't lend itself very well to the kind of 'information but not instruction' model. Some kinds of eclectic Wicca find this easier, others don't.

There's also a clause in a lot of the 'talking about religious stuff in public schools' that says that information should be 'generally agreed upon'. Since Wicca is not a religion with standard dogma, this part gets trickier as well. (Quite possibly there are some ways around it, but it depends on the approach.)

Different traditions have their own reasons for the Sabbats, their own view of cycles, their own ritual requirements. You can boil down to some general concepts (circles, quarters, 8 Sabbats, that certain tools are common) - but get much beyond that, and you start seeing a *lot* of variation that often can't be explained unless you get into why these things are there, and what they're designed to do.

That's no big deal if someone is interested in religious instruction. But it makes providing religious *information* much more complex.

[MorningDove030202]

What's the difference between instruction and information? I feel that www.wiccaforbeginners.com is information and my Pagan Orphans elist is instruction. Is this how others see it?

Honestly, I'm not doing much instruction at Pagan Orphans, just having some discussion questions, and point people to certian web sites and asking them to talk about it, and being suportive of teens who feel like they have no one to talk to about pagan stuff and might need to vent about the lack of religious tolerance in their family.
There is probably more instruction going on in our Circle of Teaching here at MW. Do we alowe teens to participate in that?

Dove

[Pandoras]

One reason many Pagans are very cautious is that they're much more vulnerable if someone does sue. People do still sometimes lose their jobs (or are made miserable at them) in some places if someone finds out they're Pagan. An individual doesn't have the financial resources of a larger church or denomination if someone presses suit. One charge, even if the person is eventually proven inncocent, can take a *lot* of money and time.
Well, can't argue with you there; you're right.

MorningDove, when it comes to the argument of what is information, what is instruction, and what's the difference between them, this is how I see it...Information is knowledge derived from study, experience, or instruction. But I define instructions as detailed directions on procedure. So it's possible to explain to someone what a circle is without having to teach or show a person how to do it. It's the difference between the theory and the practice. IMO.

[MorningDove030202]

Well, can't argue with you there; you're right.

MorningDove, when it comes to the argument of what is information, what is instruction, and what's the difference between them, this is how I see it...Information is knowledge derived from study, experience, or instruction. But I define instructions as detailed directions on procedure. So it's possible to explain to someone what a circle is without having to teach or show a person how to do it. It's the difference between the theory and the practice. IMO.

I agree....information like you find at www.wiccaforbeginners.com doesn't teach you how to be Wiccan, it just explains what it IS. That shouldn't require the 18+ pasword thingy, IMHO.

Dove

[Lunamoth]

Can anyone point me to this law that states that teaching religion to minors without parental notification is illegal. I'd like to read it for myself. I've yet to see police officers standing outside churches or synagogues making sure that all the kids that enter have permission to do so.

I don't think the law states "you can't teach kids under 18 religion without parents' permission. What it's really saying is that parents have the right to decide what religion they're taught until the child reaches the age of majority or is emancipated. And unfortunately, people pretty much assume that if a youth is walking into a church or synagogue, they probably had their parents' permission. And if they didn't and the parent has a problem with it, they usually take it up with their kid, not the church.

This article (http://www.witchvox.com/basics/teachers2.html) on Witchvox has collected the ages of majority for various states.

[~Elise~]

I don't think the law states "you can't teach kids under 18 religion without parents' permission. What it's really saying is that parents have the right to decide what religion they're taught until the child reaches the age of majority or is emancipated. And unfortunately, people pretty much assume that if a youth is walking into a church or synagogue, they probably had their parents' permission. And if they didn't and the parent has a problem with it, they usually take it up with their kid, not the church.

This article (http://www.witchvox.com/basics/teachers2.html) on Witchvox has collected the ages of majority for various states.

That is a GREAT articleon Teacher & Minor Ethics and Expectations. Thanks for the link. It will be VERY handy in the future.

Elise

[DragonsChest]

I agree with you completely. Not only do other religions NOT turn away teens, but they welcome them. They understand the importance of passing on traditions to future generations.


Okay, this is something I've wondered about for a long time, but didn't have the courage to bring up (afraid people would bash me). But I'm taking the plunge now.

Background: raised Methodist, very boring, very "safe". Confirmed at 13 in the church, interesting classes. Allowed into all church activities, from itty bitty baby till adult. Nothing was forbidden or too adult for the kids. The little kids were welcome to stay in during service or go to sunday school if they couldn't sit still and quiet. But it wasn't because there was anything in the service that they couldn't hear or see.

So why is it that there are things in Wicca that are not for children? Why aren't they allowed in all the circles? What goes on in some of the rituals that children would be harmed by seeing or participating in?

Please don't take my questions wrong... I wouldn't be on this site if my mind wasn't open, but I just don't understand.

[~Elise~]

Okay, this is something I've wondered about for a long time, but didn't have the courage to bring up (afraid people would bash me). But I'm taking the plunge now.

Background: raised Methodist, very boring, very "safe". Confirmed at 13 in the church, interesting classes. Allowed into all church activities, from itty bitty baby till adult. Nothing was forbidden or too adult for the kids. The little kids were welcome to stay in during service or go to sunday school if they couldn't sit still and quiet. But it wasn't because there was anything in the service that they couldn't hear or see.

So why is it that there are things in Wicca that are not for children? Why aren't they allowed in all the circles? What goes on in some of the rituals that children would be harmed by seeing or participating in?

Please don't take my questions wrong... I wouldn't be on this site if my mind wasn't open, but I just don't understand.

There is nothing in it USUALLY that children would not be harmed by. However, there are some times where the ritual content may be too intense for children, (Samhain comes to mind), I don't allow children under a certain age to attend even with their parents.

Beltane--Spring -- Fertility -- sometimes the content may be of an adult nature...but there are also Children circles that can be done. Spiral Round by Starhawk is an excellent resource for children's activities.

Elise

[MorningDove030202]

Assuming you are speaking of children who are being raised Pagan...

I think your questions are totaly valid, however easier to respond to when you take the age of a child into consideration. My toddler would totaly mess up a ritual! LOL He thinks candles are for blowing out (ie birthday candles). I think it's a question of when can a youth participate and that often depends on the individual maturity of the youth. One reason I haven't persued joining the tradition of Wicca near me is because they don't provide anything for kids to do. I think covens should have a "Pagan sunday school" if there are parents in the group. In fact I wrote an article in Pagan Net News with ideas and suggestions on how covens can be more child and parent friendly. How hard would it be to have a toy box and a baby gate? LOL When I had my son, I felt totaly abandoned by my pagan community which I had been a part of before I was pregnant. It was like...."Well, we arn't baby safe, why cant he stay home with dad? Oh your brest feeding, darn, see you when you ween him." I could realy get into a good bitchy rant about this, but I think I'll stop here......

Dove

[DragonsChest]

There is nothing in it USUALLY that children would not be harmed by. However, there are some times where the ritual content may be too intense for children, (Samhain comes to mind), I don't allow children under a certain age to attend even with their parents.

Beltane--Spring -- Fertility -- sometimes the content may be of an adult nature...but there are also Children circles that can be done. Spiral Round by Starhawk is an excellent resource for children's activities.

Elise

But see, that's just what I mean. There's nothing in a church service or activities that are too intense for children. That may be what gives paganism a bad image at times with the christian community. (Maybe I'm giving most christians too much credit though, for even knowing that there are some rituals for kids and some not. That would indicate an actual learning process on their part, and I have to admit, that most don't know enough to make an educated decision on paganism. They immediately go into "ACK" mode.)

But back to topic. There's this "scary OO-OOO" appearance to it all, if it isn't okay for the kids to see. Parents are going to be saying "I'm not letting my child learn about it - have you heard what their rites are like?"

I don't know. I'm a bit confused. Here I am actively getting my daughter books on this subject, and still have my own questions. I'm a mess, it would seem. :smile:

[~Elise~]

I would design a ritual different if I knew there were children in attendance. Because I know it is all adult then I don't take children POV into account.

Christian Church services know that there are going to be children there, so it is designed to be acceptable to all ages. Think about that.

There are Catholic things, I know, that can't be found out about until they are adult or in the priesthood.

All religions have things, I'm sure, that are not appropriate to children...just as Wicca and other pagan groups do.

It is nothing to be scared of. JMO and YMMV,


Elise

[DragonsChest]

Christian Church services know that there are going to be children there, so it is designed to be acceptable to all ages. Think about that. VERY good point. Now that I hadn't thought of.

There are Catholic things, I know, that can't be found out about until they are adult or in the priesthood. Can't speak to this, as I'm not catholic, nor a priest. :abanana: I'll take ya at your word, gf. But now my curiosity is kindled, what things? :hmmmmm:

All religions have things, I'm sure, that are not appropriate to children...just as Wicca and other pagan groups do.

It is nothing to be scared of. JMO and YMMV,


Elise LOL, I'm not scared, just a gal with questions. Such as, what does YMMV mean? *studies hard* :reading:

[aerialla]

Some Pentacostal church services do get pretty intense, especially when they do a laying of the hands.

I'm at a point that's really sticky. My family on all sides is Christian. (I'm the very odd duck. Yeah Me). I would love to be able to teach my children just the basic little things. But I have eyes all around and heaven forbid that they would say anything in front of the wrong family member.

I have already had the police called to my door for child abuse because I was a witch. That did not sit very well with me.

So I do little things to involve my daughters like during the summer we wouild sit outside and watch the stars and the moon and we always make a point to say goodnight. Just little things like letting my 2.5 year old plays with mommy's crystals because she likes them and thinks they're prettty.

I've decide with my children that when they get old enough (late teens) and want to know why mommy is different I will share my faith with them. But I want to do it when they are at an age where they can choose which faith they are going to follow. It's going to be tough because my oldest spouts off her memorized sunday school verses and the youngest wants to play with all of mommy's magical things.

So to make a long point. I feel that when children are of an age where they are mature enough to make a decision then they should be taught. The age is going to be different kids based on maturity. Some are mature at 13 some never.

[Willow_starr]

[B][U]NOW, that said, do I agree with the law? NO, I do not...but it is my DUTY to respect and abide by it. I think teens should be able to get the info they need. But--parents do have the right to say what knowledge their children do and do not have until they are 18, esp. when it applies to alternative religions.

Elise

I disagree with your strongly here. I like the Thoreau quote: "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." You can choose to abide by a law because challenging it would take resources you don't have access to but I cannot agree that following the law simply because it is the law is the right thing to do. Challenging a law we believe to be wrong is the only way to change it.

As to wiccaforbeginners.com, I wrote to Simon, the author, asking his reasoning which I think will be quite enlightning. I also think that the disclaimer for site of a purely informational nature shouldn't be restricted for anyone and I think it does perpetuate the idea that there is something "dangerous" about Wicca. If parents have a problem with their children accessing information of any variety it is up to them to deal with it, not an author. However, I do agree with classes, circles and coven being closed to minors without parental consent for many reasons.

[Willow_starr]

My E-mail:
Hello,

I just wanted to say I really enjoyed you page "Wicca for Beginners". I am not a new Wiccan myself but I love finding good Pagan resources on-line. However, I just wanted to ask: what's up with the disclaimer and password on your front page? I understand that there are some laws around proselytizating to minors but you make it very clear that that is not what your site is about. I find it troubling because of the message that it sends that learning about Wicca is somehow not appropriate for young people. I cannot think of any other religious site dealing with only basic information about their faith with such a disclaimer. I first found Wicca as a teenager and could have really benefited from the information on your page. Could you please give more insight into your reasoning?

Cheers,
Alissa

Reply"
Sure can... a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm ordained clergy and
head of a national Wiccan church organization, which leaves me rather
exposed for liability issues.

The laws on proselytization and minor contact by clergy are diverse, poorly
written, randomly enforced and could easily be used as a weapon by a hate
group trying to make an example of me... That's something I'd like to avoid.

We live in a screwed up society where a Christian minister can walk up to a
12 year old boy on the street, hand him a tract, and tell him that his
parents are going to hell for not being church-goers, but a well intentioned
non-invasive publication from a Wiccan priest could be seen as corrupting
the morals of a youth... a crime with a potential 5 year jail term.

Rather than allowing this to silence me, counsel writes a `contract'
entrance and with a little luck I don't get arrested :-)

In light of your e-mail, I agree that the entrance could be seen as implying
the contents (or Wicca in general) are somehow unfit for minors. I should
work on that. I'm open to suggestions.

Thank-you for the feedback, and I respect your concern for the image
portrayed.

Best Wishes,

Simon

[Invidosa]

My E-mail:

The laws on proselytization and minor contact by clergy are diverse, poorly
written, randomly enforced and could easily be used as a weapon by a hate
group trying to make an example of me... That's something I'd like to avoid.

We live in a screwed up society where a Christian minister can walk up to a
12 year old boy on the street, hand him a tract, and tell him that his
parents are going to hell for not being church-goers, but a well intentioned
non-invasive publication from a Wiccan priest could be seen as corrupting
the morals of a youth... a crime with a potential 5 year jail term.



And this my friends is the crux of the problem. Unfortunately, despite Wicca being recognized as an American religion, despite the constitutional protection of our right to choose our own faith, pagans are still one of the few groups that it is ok to be prejudicial against. So, while I absolutely agree that the idea is ridiculous and unfair to prosecute Wiccans and Pagans for teaching to minors, I absolutely refuse to do it. I have many times had my sisters friends (she is a freshman in highschool, 10 years my junior) ask me about my beliefs, and while I will happily explain the very very very basic ideas, I won't say anymore. Sadly enough, there are still folks out there that think we sign our names in blood in the devil's book. I mean, I personally have had too many negative reactions without teaching anyone anything, I don't think I will invite the hate mail thank you very much. Is it sad? Without a doubt, But is it neccessary? sadly yes.

[MorningDove030202]

Very cool email! I'm glad he acknowledges that the pasword thing makes the page look liike it's a danger to minors, and I'm glad he is open to suggestions. On the main page, I would state what he has stated in his letter, that he doesn't want to be a target for a lawsuit, and that there is nothing inherintly dangerous about Wicca for minors. I truely apreciate you writing to him about it!
Dove

My E-mail:
Hello,

I just wanted to say I really enjoyed you page "Wicca for Beginners". I am not a new Wiccan myself but I love finding good Pagan resources on-line. However, I just wanted to ask: what's up with the disclaimer and password on your front page? I understand that there are some laws around proselytizating to minors but you make it very clear that that is not what your site is about. I find it troubling because of the message that it sends that learning about Wicca is somehow not appropriate for young people. I cannot think of any other religious site dealing with only basic information about their faith with such a disclaimer. I first found Wicca as a teenager and could have really benefited from the information on your page. Could you please give more insight into your reasoning?

Cheers,
Alissa

Reply"
Sure can... a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm ordained clergy and
head of a national Wiccan church organization, which leaves me rather
exposed for liability issues.

The laws on proselytization and minor contact by clergy are diverse, poorly
written, randomly enforced and could easily be used as a weapon by a hate
group trying to make an example of me... That's something I'd like to avoid.

We live in a screwed up society where a Christian minister can walk up to a
12 year old boy on the street, hand him a tract, and tell him that his
parents are going to hell for not being church-goers, but a well intentioned
non-invasive publication from a Wiccan priest could be seen as corrupting
the morals of a youth... a crime with a potential 5 year jail term.

Rather than allowing this to silence me, counsel writes a `contract'
entrance and with a little luck I don't get arrested :-)

In light of your e-mail, I agree that the entrance could be seen as implying
the contents (or Wicca in general) are somehow unfit for minors. I should
work on that. I'm open to suggestions.

Thank-you for the feedback, and I respect your concern for the image
portrayed.

Best Wishes,

Simon

[AlAskendir]

It is dangerous!
Other religions don't have the Patriarchs watching them like Hawks, ready to sue, arrest, take kids away 'for their own good', and destroy lives.
So, I have no problem with teens joining the UU-s and getting their religious education there, then coming to circles when they are adults, should they want to.
Why would that be a probelm?

[Dawa Lhamo]

1)The illegal part is "Teaching religion to a minor with out parent's permission" Which I argue a web site like www.wiccaforbeginners isn't doing. It's not targeting minors at alll, it shouldn't have to cover its but legaly.
2)The law was written before the internet and doesn't take into account the fact that someone can post public information that in order to read one has to seek it out for themselves.
3) My Pagan Orphans elist is targeting Wiccan teens and I would be willing to take their right to freedom of religion to court. I also feel that ultimatly the lack of info is worse than the information I provide at Pagan Orphans. And I can also site Tempest Smith as an example of why I rune Pagan Orphans! Maybe if she had a suport group, she wouldn't have comitted suicide! Ultimatly, I feel there is a big difference between inperson teaching and proviiding info online, when it comes to minors.

DoveI think that prosecuting someone for a wicca website that is available to minors is like prosecuting someone for writing a book about wicca because it is available for minors to check out from a library.

There is also the difference between teaching religion and teaching about religion. It is illegal to teach religion to a minor. It is not illegal to teach ABOUT religion. There is a big difference here. An informational site about practices, beliefs, etc is not teaching religion. My religious studies prof. always makes that disclaimer at the start of a new class. ^_^

I have a mailing list attached to the campus pagan group at my school. We do not discriminate against minors. Honestly, if you are 16 or 17 in college, you have as much rights to access the group as anyone. We don't teach; we aren't a coven; we discuss and support and yes, we do have festivals, but we don't teach people how to be pagan, we show them what some of us do as pagans. There are people here that don't feel comfortable coming to meetings (fear of persecution/parents) or whatever who still draw support from the fact that the group exists and that they *could* attend if they needed to.

As far as the sunday school idea, I don't know. My first festival I was a few weeks old. Our group runs this way: if you'll behave, then you can be in most circles. Obviously I didn't attend other people's initiations or anything. I'm sure we sometimes caused a bit of disturbance now and then, but a stern look from mom or dad soon silenced that. ^_^ I mean, I was allowed to take part in invocations probably when I was seven or eight (maybe even six), and call quarters when I was 11 or 12. These were regular esbats and sabbats. I'm sure if anything heavy-duty was done, I wasn't a part of it; we were watched by someone. I wasn't allowed to go to Heartland Pagan festival til I was 12, either. I suppose it really depends on what your group does and how they run things. And it's really up to the parents and the HP/S (if they are different) to decide.

I know my future kids are going to explore their own religions. All I can do is see that they're incredibly informed on how to discern what is ok and not ok (what makes them feel uncomfortable is not ok). I will supervise until they reach an age where I'm sure that they can tell these things, but frankly, I can't make their decisions for them. Teens and young adults make mistakes. These are important for their personal growth. At some point, I have to say, ok, I've taught them morals, how to avoid cultish/dangerous behaviour, and what to do if things go wrong. At some point they're going to have to use this on their own. It'll depend on the kids what age this occurs, but almost definitely before they're 18. High school is nearly as much a time of exploration as college (or college-age).

These are my thoughts on this.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[~Elise~]

YMMV means Your Milage May Vary -

[~Elise~]

I disagree with your strongly here. I like the Thoreau quote: "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." You can choose to abide by a law because challenging it would take resources you don't have access to but I cannot agree that following the law simply because it is the law is the right thing to do. Challenging a law we believe to be wrong is the only way to change it.

As to wiccaforbeginners.com, I wrote to Simon, the author, asking his reasoning which I think will be quite enlightning. I also think that the disclaimer for site of a purely informational nature shouldn't be restricted for anyone and I think it does perpetuate the idea that there is something "dangerous" about Wicca. If parents have a problem with their children accessing information of any variety it is up to them to deal with it, not an author. However, I do agree with classes, circles and coven being closed to minors without parental consent for many reasons.

Okay--this reply has nothing to do with the website under part of this discussion... I have no problem with the disclaimer. The man is protecting himself, nothing wrong with that.

Parents should HAVE a right to say what their kids are learning...if that means that I can't teach them teach my path even if the child wants to know about it, then so be it... I do NOT want that right taken away. I don't want someone to be able to teach my child about creationism, so I'll take a bit of control over things...so I do consider it my duty to follow that guideline.

This goes two ways so everyone needs to think about that. What do you want them teaching your kids, even if your kids want to know about it?

Elise

[Jenett]

Dragonschest:

**So why is it that there are things in Wicca that are not for children? Why aren't they allowed in all the circles? What goes on in some of the rituals that children would be harmed by seeing or participating in?**

Ok, first, we need to make a distincation clear: people often use the word Wicca for a wide spectrum of paths. There's British Traditional Wicca (a collection of traditions with similar origins, which are generally seen as a initiatory mystery priesthood tradition) Often referred to as BTW for brevity. There's eclectic Wicca, where often a great deal has been edited, and there's often a lot less focus on the mysteries in BTW paths. And then there's a bunch of paths in between: often structured traditions with similarities to BTW paths, some differences, but often with a focus on at least some of the same general mysteries. My training's in a structured eclectic trad, I've done a lot of seeker-level discussion with people in BTW trads.

Things that may be included more towards the BTW end of the scale include (not all groups do all these things, and many don't do them at every ritual):

1) explicit sexuality (usually intercourse is private between the High Priest and High Priestess, generally only if they've got a relationship that allows for that, and often the coven will go out before they start, and come back when they're done.)

But the Great Rite in symbol - a symbolic joining of male and female - is a core ritual piece in many Wiccan traditions. It's all about sex. It's about other stuff, too, but if you take the sex part entirely out of the discussion, it's hard to talk about.

2) Nudity: Some traditions - mostly in the BTW side - work skyclad or nude. This is done for reasons important to those traditions (relating to vulnerability, equality within circle, some kinds of energy theory, among others), not just because they like seeing people naked. However, nude adults around minor children has all sorts of obvious issues.

3) Methods of raising power: not everyone (or every tradition) works with all of these, but binding, scourging, sexual energy, and the use of drugs are all methods of directing energy: again, not stuff suitable for children for one reason or another . Another form used is trance or meditation, which isn't necessarily bad for kids, but most of them don't have the attention span for it yet, and it's one of those things you need to want to learn to get far with it. (The other common ones include dancing, chanting/mantras, and ritual as a tool in and of itself: these are much more accessible to children/teens.)

4) A possessory religion: where a deity speaks through the mouth of the priestess or priest. If this person is the child's parent, it can be scary or unsettling. Even if the child's not related, this is a somewhat finicky process: distractions (even from relatively well-behaved children) can make it *much* harder on the priest or priestess, including a much longer recovery time, or less information/time with the group.

5) Many groups include longer meditations or quiet times in their ritual: this often isn't suited to younger children, and again, even with older folks, it needs to be something you want to do to get much out of it.

6) The Sabbats have some fun aspects, but also some very hard, complex, or adult ones: death, the sacrifice of the God, sex, etc.

In addition, more traditional forms of Wicca are designed for small, intimate group work. People may not feel comfortable opening up or being vulnerable around people they don't feel are their peers (they may not want to burden minors with hard stuff in their lives, or may feel uncomfortable talking through issues like past abuse, the love/hate relationship many adults go through with their parents for at least a while, complex problems in a marriage, etc.) At that same time, it's exactly that intimacy that builds a strong group that can work effective magic together on a regular basis.

Now....

Many of these issues don't exist or are handled differently in larger groups aimed at mid-to-large group rituals. They often avoid the stuff that's problematic for kids (at least some or most of the time), or work out ways to keep the kids busy while the adults do something else.

One thing that sticks in my mind, though, is a conversation Judy Harrow recounts in her book _Wicca Covens_ - she was talking to someone who'd been a child in a coven that did children's classes/rituals for the kids of the people in the coven. The person said it didn't do any harm, but it didn't really seem to do much *good*, either, especially given the amount of time and energy it took for everyone to come up with and run two sets of training material.

Basically, it's different goals. If you think as BTW and related trads more along the lines of a priesthood or monastary, rather than a mainstream congregation, you may see some of the other issues, too. It's not that either one is good or bad, but they've got very different focuses and goals and often methods.

[MorningDove030202]

I would just like to mention that because of this thread, and after talking about it with the other moderator that is part of Pagan Orphans, I've made some chainges that make it more inline with "information" and not "instruction" .

Dove

[DragonsChest]

YMMV means Your Milage May Vary -


*snork* Cute! :bouncysmi

[DragonsChest]

Jenett,

First off, wow! You put an amazing amount of time and effort into that post. Thank you very much for doing all that work. I have read and reread it, and I'm still digesting it. Again, thank you for the info.

:hugz:

[WingedTigerChild]

Do you think it's wrong if I tell minors interested in Wicca to go ahead and look at the site? Essentialy I'd be telling them to lie. As it is now, I suggest to minors that they look at the site with their parents, or with their permission.

Dove
No. But then, I'm against most forms of censorship anyway. There's nothing on that site that anyone 13 and under shouldn't see. (Though I firmly believe that maturity varies from individual to individual).

Personaly I think misinformation is more dangerous than the good information...I think it does suggest that we have something to hide, which we really don't.
My thoughts as well.

Actually it is illegal to teach any religion to a minor without parental consent. So personaly I think it's great that they do have the it set up so that you must be 18 to enter (I'm assuming that it can be waived if a parent contacts the site owner and gives permission for their child to access the site). Regardless of the religion I would have problems with someone teaching my child a religion, or even providing information to them about a religion, without my permission. I understand kids are curious and will want to get into that sort of thing by themselves or don't think they're parents will understand/be receptive, but it is not the responsability of strangers to teach my children about religion.
If you look at things that way, then this very site is doing something very much illegal by allowing 13 to 17-year-olds post here. I don't imagine everyone's parents approve here. So personally, I think that the law should either be done away with completely, or lowered in age. (Perhaps 12 and under?) If a child is curious, he or she will find a way to information irregardless of what mum or dad says.

I disagree with your strongly here. I like the Thoreau quote: "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." You can choose to abide by a law because challenging it would take resources you don't have access to but I cannot agree that following the law simply because it is the law is the right thing to do. Challenging a law we believe to be wrong is the only way to change it.
Amen to that.

[Pandoras]

I agree that some aspects of Wiccan rituals may not be suitable for children and teens, but Wicca is about more than just rituals. There are beliefs involved and a certain worldview that often accompanies those beliefs. For instance, reverence for nature and harmony with it rather than dominion over it, reverence for a female deity as well as a male one, balance and equality between male and female rather than oppression and subjugation of the female, that sex isn't something to feel guilt or shame over. These are things that should be stressed as well (especially with curious teens). It isn't just about circles and spells. A kid can learn about the love (and sex, when mature enough) between the Goddess and the God without witnessing the Great Rite. Remember that most children learn something is "wrong" because we (as parents, relatives, teachers, and other figures of authority, as well as society at large) have taught them that it's wrong.

Not only does excluding our children from Wicca (or worse, hiding it from them) reinforce the idea that we're doing something wrong, it means we leave them exposed to learn the view of the world and our place in it from the dominant faith that saturates American culture - Christianity. And since Christianity, in my opinion, holds opposite views, it's crucial for me raise my kids Pagan from day one. Whether they remain Pagan or not is another story, of course. After all, I started as a Christian and look at me now.

Oh and by the way, there's things in Christianity which I don't think are appropriate for children. When I was a kid in catechism, I was given a little book of children's Bible stories and teachings. There was one image that has always stayed with me - naked bodies painfully burning in Hell. Yeah, that's a great image for little kids. And the image of the suffering Jesus on the cross is another.

[DragonsChest]

There was one image that has always stayed with me - naked bodies painfully burning in Hell. Yeah, that's a great image for little kids. And the image of the suffering Jesus on the cross is another.

You know, I never thought about that as inappropriate, because I was brought up with that. It was just a "oh look, bad people burning in Hell, isn't that sad.... Oh look! a butterfly!" It just never meant much to me.

Good point, Pandoras!

[Dawa Lhamo]

I agree that some aspects of Wiccan rituals may not be suitable for children and teens, but Wicca is about more than just rituals. There are beliefs involved and a certain worldview that often accompanies those beliefs. For instance, reverence for nature and harmony with it rather than dominion over it, reverence for a female deity as well as a male one, balance and equality between male and female rather than oppression and subjugation of the female, that sex isn't something to feel guilt or shame over. These are things that should be stressed as well (especially with curious teens). It isn't just about circles and spells. A kid can learn about the love (and sex, when mature enough) between the Goddess and the God without witnessing the Great Rite. Remember that most children learn something is "wrong" because we (as parents, relatives, teachers, and other figures of authority, as well as society at large) have taught them that it's wrong.

Not only does excluding our children from Wicca (or worse, hiding it from them) reinforce the idea that we're doing something wrong, it means we leave them exposed to learn the view of the world and our place in it from the dominant faith that saturates American culture - Christianity. And since Christianity, in my opinion, holds opposite views, it's crucial for me raise my kids Pagan from day one. Whether they remain Pagan or not is another story, of course. After all, I started as a Christian and look at me now.

Oh and by the way, there's things in Christianity which I don't think are appropriate for children. When I was a kid in catechism, I was given a little book of children's Bible stories and teachings. There was one image that has always stayed with me - naked bodies painfully burning in Hell. Yeah, that's a great image for little kids. And the image of the suffering Jesus on the cross is another.

Wow, that's a lot different than the Precious Moments Children's Bible my grandma gave me. I tried reading that so many times... ^_^ The scariest image from my childhood is from an astronomy book of the sun boiling the earth in so many millions of years from now. Like this:
sun boiling earth image (http://www.cosmographica.com/gallery/portfolio/portfolio151/pages/172-RedGiantSun.htm)

Anyway, I agree with what you said. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

If you look at things that way, then this very site is doing something very much illegal by allowing 13 to 17-year-olds post here. I don't imagine everyone's parents approve here. So personally, I think that the law should either be done away with completely, or lowered in age. (Perhaps 12 and under?) If a child is curious, he or she will find a way to information irregardless of what mum or dad says.

As I voiced in the this thread, I think ALL religious websites should have the same sort of 18 and older or permission of parent access only. That includes MW. Just because the law is not enforced evenly doesn't mean we should do away with it. It just means it should be enforced. Like I've said before I would have HUGE issues with anyone besides myself or my husband teaching religion to my child, especially at a place like this, because of the amount of misinformation that gets spread intentionally or unintentionally, unless I gave my permission.

[arctic splash]

My friend in Scotland says that the pagan society at her university is always apologising to the Christian group for their very existence. That's sad. No one should have to apologise for their religious beliefs.

I get the same sort of feeling from this site. It's as though they are ashamed on some level, and thus, think the information isn't appropriate for younger people. (I think that's also part of the reason we're so careful about sex with younger people -- we're ashamed and want to keep them 'pure'). There should be no shame in being Wiccan, and there should be no shame in *loving* sexual intercourse. Again, I find it sad. Even if this isn't their intention, it's definitely how it comes off...

Young people would do well to read a *good* website on Wicca. I cannot understand this...

[Dawa Lhamo]

As I voiced in the this thread, I think ALL religious websites should have the same sort of 18 and older or permission of parent access only. That includes MW. Just because the law is not enforced evenly doesn't mean we should do away with it. It just means it should be enforced. Like I've said before I would have HUGE issues with anyone besides myself or my husband teaching religion to my child, especially at a place like this, because of the amount of misinformation that gets spread intentionally or unintentionally, unless I gave my permission.I'll have to respectfully disagree. When my father first became interested in witchcraft (in his early teens), he got some books on Tarot. When his parents found out, they freaked. They made him burn his books in the driveway, and get down on his knees in the gravel and pray over them for his soul. If the internet had existed, he most certainly would not have been allowed to look up anything but about Missouri Synod Lutheranism. It's helpful to learn about a breadth of religions, and if your(nonspecific) parents are intolerant of everything else, then are you supposed to wait until after your developing years are over to be able to find out anything about anything other than your parents' particular view?

For my part, my parents enabled me to pick out the good from the bad, and how to tell when something's fake or unhealthy. In short, they gave me a BS-meter. ^_^ And it's worked pretty well. (of all my paternal cousins, my brothers and I are the most balanced, well-mannered, and productive citizens. We were raised tolerant/informed of other views, our cousins were not.) I understand what you're saying, though, in that I've seen what having just a little information can do--when my friends first saw the Craft and wanted to become witches like them:geez:. The problem is when people, esp. children/teens take one thing and treat it as truth, rather than looking at from a number of different angles and deciding for themselves.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

As parents are legally responsible for their children's education and have that control over their children, and if they aren't open-minded enough to expose their children to a variety of religions, then yes I do think the minor should wait until they have reached their majority. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I really don't care about how popular my thoughts are. I don't think it's censorship for a parent to have control over their child's education. I think it's only right and proper.

There is absolutely no reason anyone besides me should EVER be teaching my child about religion without my express permission. Then again, I feel that way about all types of education. I have huge issues with what is taught in a lot of public schools nowdays too. One of my biggest pet peeves is that sex ed is taught in school. When I went I know they still had to get parental permission, and if they still do I can assure you that permission will not be given. Again that's my job. There is also a lot of revisionist history being taught, which I disagree with as well. If I get my way, my son will be home-schooled so that I am in control of what he's being taught and how. However that is currently a big argument between hubby and I. He really dislikes the idea of home-schooling. At the worst I will work on sending him to a private or charter school which I can scrutinize myself to determine if they are up to my standards.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. When my father first became interested in witchcraft (in his early teens), he got some books on Tarot. When his parents found out, they freaked. They made him burn his books in the driveway, and get down on his knees in the gravel and pray over them for his soul. If the internet had existed, he most certainly would not have been allowed to look up anything but about Missouri Synod Lutheranism. It's helpful to learn about a breadth of religions, and if your(nonspecific) parents are intolerant of everything else, then are you supposed to wait until after your developing years are over to be able to find out anything about anything other than your parents' particular view?

For my part, my parents enabled me to pick out the good from the bad, and how to tell when something's fake or unhealthy. In short, they gave me a BS-meter. ^_^ And it's worked pretty well. (of all my paternal cousins, my brothers and I are the most balanced, well-mannered, and productive citizens. We were raised tolerant/informed of other views, our cousins were not.) I understand what you're saying, though, in that I've seen what having just a little information can do--when my friends first saw the Craft and wanted to become witches like them:geez:. The problem is when people, esp. children/teens take one thing and treat it as truth, rather than looking at from a number of different angles and deciding for themselves.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[arctic splash]

As parents are legally responsible for their children's education and have that control over their children

This simply isn't true in a lot of places. It's the government that has control over the education of children. In the United States, it differs from state to state, but in some places... Germany, for example... homeschooling is practically illegal. I don't know if you're saying that parents *are* or *should be* legally responsible... but in many places, right now, they certainly aren't.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

In the United States parents are legally responsible for their minors, and they are legally responsible to make sure they get an education whether its homeschooling, private or charterschooling, or public government run schools. That's what I was referring to. They are also legally responsible for everything related to their children, that includes whether or not they receive religious training. But the fact of the matter is, it is up to the parent and the parents can and have filed suit if someone is providing religious instruction to their chldren without their permission. That is why I think all religious websites should have the over 18 or parental permission gateways. It's CYA.

Edit to add: When I speak of legalities I always am referring to US laws as I'm an American and don't know how the laws work in other countries.

[MorningDove030202]

In the United States parents are legally responsible for their minors, and they are legally responsible to make sure they get an education whether its homeschooling, private or charterschooling, or public government run schools. That's what I was referring to. They are also legally responsible for everything related to their children, that includes whether or not they receive religious training. But the fact of the matter is, it is up to the parent and the parents can and have filed suit if someone is providing religious instruction to their chldren without their permission. That is why I think all religious websites should have the over 18 or parental permission gateways. It's CYA.

Edit to add: When I speak of legalities I always am referring to US laws as I'm an American and don't know how the laws work in other countries.


I agree, but disagreee. I think a parent does have the right to censor the info a child gets, but I don't think it's the web site's reponsibility to do the censoring. If a parent want's the web sensored, then they should have the filtering software, or watch their children on the net. A web sites isn't responsable for the child or anyone else who read the site. It's information that is accessed by someone who wants is looking for it, it's not teaching.

Dove

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Oh certainly, the parents should be watching their child more closely. However, I don't think it's a bad idea to CYA as www.wiccaforbeginners.com is doing. It protects them and if a parent files suit they can prove that they weren't "out to get young, impressionable children."

[MorningDove030202]

Oh certainly, the parents should be watching their child more closely. However, I don't think it's a bad idea to CYA as www.wiccaforbeginners.com is doing. It protects them and if a parent files suit they can prove that they weren't "out to get young, impressionable children."

I think that the fact that we "CYA" as you put it, and others don't make us look suspicious. I think a simple statement that says, "Please get your parent's permission to look at our site." with out the password thingy would be better. It says, we want you to honor your parents and Wicca is ok for kids, it's not dangerous.

Dove

[greenview]

There are disclaimers for every thing out there now days.

Since when did a teenager listen to what adults had to say about something. Kids are coming to things on their own. Most of the time they dont feel the supported for independant thought. They are looked down on things we thought about or did when we were their age.
Do we live in a society that supports wiccans with out a second thought?

For all the strides we have made you still cant expect to be a woman making the same amount of money as the man next to you in the office with the same qualifications. So in a country that is still sue happy cause money solves all, what do you expect.

The next time you wonder why someone might not want to give out knowledge to all the questions thought of think of this: What happens when someone new and young comes in to chat asking for the knowledge of all right here and now? Are they not questioned? Are they judged for wanting to know? Not every enthusiastic youth has come to this place asking questions that didnt make someone worry but how do you know who is worthy and who isnt. Time can only tell.

We are such a society of instant gradification. Even with the knowledge not everyone has the answers to life. Not everything is fair but if its that important to them they will reach their goals with or without someones permission. Sometimes the journey makes the knowledge so much sweeter. I hope i dont offend anyone. Just a thought or two is all.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I think that the fact that we "CYA" as you put it, and others don't make us look suspicious. I think a simple statement that says, "Please get your parent's permission to look at our site." with out the password thingy would be better. It says, we want you to honor your parents and Wicca is ok for kids, it's not dangerous.

Dove

~shrugs~ Like I said, I think all religious websites should have limited access. Since I'm really not contributing much to the discussion other than repetition, I'm just going to bow out now. But it was an interesting point that brings up some controversial/thought-provoking discussion.

[WingedTigerChild]

As I voiced in the this thread, I think ALL religious websites should have the same sort of 18 and older or permission of parent access only. That includes MW. Just because the law is not enforced evenly doesn't mean we should do away with it. It just means it should be enforced. Like I've said before I would have HUGE issues with anyone besides myself or my husband teaching religion to my child, especially at a place like this, because of the amount of misinformation that gets spread intentionally or unintentionally, unless I gave my permission.
Ok, so put yourself in the position of someone under age who's looking into Wicca, but doesn't have parental permission because their parents would never approve. Are you honestly suggesting they remain naive little drones until they turn 18 and/or move out? Children are not things to be controlled, they are human beings who need guidance here and there. If someone teaches your child about a religion, ask your child about it, relay your feelings and/or beliefs, and ask them to do the same. I don't know about you, or the government, but I'm not silly enough to believe that all children believe whatever they're told. If they do, then that says more about the parents, really. If you've taught your child right, he or she should be able to think through what others are telling/teaching them and come to their own conclusions (with an open mind). I think part of the problem is that parents (and maybe yourself?) are so scared that their children might not believe exactly like them. It's sad, really.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I really don't need to be accused of anything. I explained several times why I feel the way I do. If you don't like it that's fine, but leave off with the veiled insults and accusations.

I've no problem with my child learning about religion or anything else for that matter, but I do have issue with OTHER people teaching him about it because there are way too many people about spreading all sorts of misinformation (my religion and that of my ancestors has been butchered by the likes of Wiccans and other Neo-Pagans, I certainly don't find most of these types to be reliable sources for information) as well as others out there just to take advantage of young kids. If he's interested in a religion I don't know anything about then I will gladly research it with him, but I will not allow someone who I have not talked to and checked out teach him ANYTHING. It has nothing to do with him being an ignorant drone, it has everything to do with the all the problems in the rest of the world and my protecting him. I think that if more parents were doing their jobs and took responsability for their child's education, religious and otherwise, instead of leaving it to others, we'd all be a hell of a lot better off.



Ok, so put yourself in the position of someone under age who's looking into Wicca, but doesn't have parental permission because their parents would never approve. Are you honestly suggesting they remain naive little drones until they turn 18 and/or move out? Children are not things to be controlled, they are human beings who need guidance here and there. If someone teaches your child about a religion, ask your child about it, relay your feelings and/or beliefs, and ask them to do the same. I don't know about you, or the government, but I'm not silly enough to believe that all children believe whatever they're told. If they do, then that says more about the parents, really. If you've taught your child right, he or she should be able to think through what others are telling/teaching them and come to their own conclusions (with an open mind). I think part of the problem is that parents (and maybe yourself?) are so scared that their children might not believe exactly like them. It's sad, really.

[Ron]

I really don't need to be accused of anything. I explained several times why I feel the way I do. If you don't like it that's fine, but leave off with the veiled insults and accusations.

I've no problem with my child learning about religion or anything else for that matter, but I do have issue with OTHER people teaching him about it because there are way too many people about spreading all sorts of misinformation (my religion and that of my ancestors has been butchered by the likes of Wiccans and other Neo-Pagans, I certainly don't find most of these types to be reliable sources for information) as well as others out there just to take advantage of young kids. If he's interested in a religion I don't know anything about then I will gladly research it with him, but I will not allow someone who I have not talked to and checked out teach him ANYTHING. It has nothing to do with him being an ignorant drone, it has everything to do with the all the problems in the rest of the world and my protecting him. I think that if more parents were doing their jobs and took responsability for their child's education, religious and otherwise, instead of leaving it to others, we'd all be a hell of a lot better off.

I, in the spirit of the Solstice and Xmas too, agree with Mòrag.

[MorningDove030202]

Well, I think it's unrealistic to expect all religious web sites to have a password thingy. I mean if a kid uses spray pain to tag a building, is it the spray pain maker's fault? Same argument here, if a kid reads about Wicca online and becomes Wiccan, is it the web site author's fault? No, he didn't make the kid read the site, the kid chose to, and parents weren't watching.

Dove

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

I can't get over my disgust for peoples ignorant take on witchcraft. I find much worse in the Christian faith than in any form of Paganism. In particular the whole "bad people will go to Hell and suffer forever" pile of sh*t. I simply cannot accept such a black and white view of humanity, and for many years I had struggled to rid myself of this horrid belief, telling myself that nobody is black and white. Many evil people have a good side thats either ignored or never mentioned at all. No one is completely good or bad, so why should such a sick, twisted belief be taught to poor little kids who will believe most likely without much thought. In some ways I consider that a form of child abuse since kids are of course more vulnerable to such extravagant ideas, and adults know this, so such education (brainwashing) comes early on. And for what? To preserve more intolerance and so called "morals" in our society.

So maybe we should put up a sign on church doors saying something about how "Christianity contains scary and terrible ideas about suffering in fire for all eternity if you do bad stuff blah blah blah and so on and so forth". It would never fly, right? In fact just because the majority rules, they would never even come close to having such a thing happen.

And to anyone who holds Christian beliefs, I am in no way trying to offend you. Sorry if I do. I just feel the Hell thing is one of the worst parts of the whole religion.

[WingedTigerChild]

*Shrugs* I just don't see what the big deal is. There will always be misinformation out there.

[Selene Starshadow]

I have been practicing wicca since i was 12....back then, i remember having to hide it from both my parents becasue my dad is a strong christian..and my mom thinks she is. I'm 16 now, and me and my mom practice together....i think it'sstupid that websites say "18 and older" they should just have a warning to kids not to meddle in anything they don't understand. Wicca is for everyone

[~Elise~]

I have been practicing wicca since i was 12....back then, i remember having to hide it from both my parents becasue my dad is a strong christian..and my mom thinks she is. I'm 16 now, and me and my mom practice together....i think it'sstupid that websites say "18 and older" they should just have a warning to kids not to meddle in anything they don't understand. Wicca is for everyone

You know--you had me up until you said Wicca is for everyone.

I'm sorry but I disagree strongly with that one statement. Wicca is not for everyone. I'm a Witch, I'm not Wiccan, (at least not the way the majority practice it). What about Asatru? What about Druids? What about all the other spiritual paths out there...Wicca is not for everyone. I do not believe in the Rede, in the concept of Karma as put out by some Wiccans. There are lots of people who feel similar to this.

It is great you are practicing with your Mom now...more families should practice together. My kids were doing rituals with me from the time they were very young, but they also went to Christian church--all different demoninations, as well. They make their own minds up, but we discuss it.

Also, I wouldn't want some teenager running around casting spells on everyone, threatening them--playacting--because they found a bit of info on the web. It has happened right here in Tulsa, so I know it happens. (probably more than we are aware of, too). So yes, under 18 should not be able to access info without parental permission on ANY religion--be it wicca, witchcraft, islam, jewish or christian.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

[MorningDove030202]

I don't think that what she ment. I think she means that it's safe for everyone of any age, race, nationality, gender and sexual orientation.

Dove

You know--you had me up until you said Wicca is for everyone.

I'm sorry but I disagree strongly with that one statement. Wicca is not for everyone. I'm a Witch, I'm not Wiccan, (at least not the way the majority practice it). What about Asatru? What about Druids? What about all the other spiritual paths out there...Wicca is not for everyone. I do not believe in the Rede, in the concept of Karma as put out by some Wiccans. There are lots of people who feel similar to this.

It is great you are practicing with your Mom now...more families should practice together. My kids were doing rituals with me from the time they were very young, but they also went to Christian church--all different demoninations, as well. They make their own minds up, but we discuss it.

Also, I wouldn't want some teenager running around casting spells on everyone, threatening them--playacting--because they found a bit of info on the web. It has happened right here in Tulsa, so I know it happens. (probably more than we are aware of, too). So yes, under 18 should not be able to access info without parental permission on ANY religion--be it wicca, witchcraft, islam, jewish or christian.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

[~Elise~]

I agree more with the statement then if that was what she meant--however there are some unstable types out there that NO magical system is safe for. So, it isn't safe for everyone, but I can go with the spirit of the meaning.

Didn't mean to sound like I was taking her to task, but broad sweeping statements like that need to be qualified.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

[~AradianMoon~]

Im a 14 year old and its devistating to hear people saying that either younger practitioners are too immuture to take it seriouasly or that we need protection or parental guidance to such sights! Its more offensive acctually, :fpompoms i LOVE my religion and i want to learn (as most all pagans do) as much as i possibly can, i can easily see porn on the internet, ok mabey parental guidance should come with that and im sure the time a 40 year old tired to hoom up with me online could have used a warning but even at my age i know how to handle these things ( yes i realize some may not but 18 seems a little extreme). But i mean come on am i supposed to be protected form tree hugging,Goddess worshipping and drinking alot of tea! I know wicca is alot more than that but how can they even compare sights like that to some i mentioned above!!! And knowing from personal experiance with other young wiccans, iv been BLOWN AWAY with 2 12 year old girls madly in love with the religion and craft, not in lust with the no strings attached magick some people seem to be more attrackted to that really dosnt exist and i always find those people tend to abandon practice in a short period of time.

HOW CAN U PUT AN AGE LIMIT ON RELIGIOUS SIGHTS!!!! :awilly:

bex

[Ron]

Im a 14 year old and its devistating to hear people saying that either younger practitioners are too immuture to take it seriouasly or that we need protection or parental guidance to such sights! Its more offensive acctually, :fpompoms i LOVE my religion and i want to learn (as most all pagans do) as much as i possibly can, i can easily see porn on the internet, ok mabey parental guidance should come with that and im sure the time a 40 year old tired to hoom up with me online could have used a warning but even at my age i know how to handle these things ( yes i realize some may not but 18 seems a little extreme). But i mean come on am i supposed to be protected form tree hugging,Goddess worshipping and drinking alot of tea! I know wicca is alot more than that but how can they even compare sights like that to some i mentioned above!!! And knowing from personal experiance with other young wiccans, iv been BLOWN AWAY with 2 12 year old girls madly in love with the religion and craft, not in lust with the no strings attached magick some people seem to be more attrackted to that really dosnt exist and i always find those people tend to abandon practice in a short period of time.

HOW CAN U PUT AN AGE LIMIT ON RELIGIOUS SIGHTS!!!! :awilly:

bex
Hey Becca. Young people are impressionable. :) Like the way you believed Wicca is "the old religion" until Toby and I explained to you that it was not.

If your parents were there, they would have see the lies that people presented, saying Wicca is "the old religion" and you would not have spent so much time in such a lie. :)

:cheers:

[Pandoras]

Hey Becca. Young people are impressionable. :) Like the way you believed Wicca is "the old religion" until Toby and I explained to you that it was not.

If your parents were there, they would have see the lies that people presented, saying Wicca is "the old religion" and you would not have spent so much time in such a lie. :)

:cheers:

I tend to be contradictory on this issue because I believe in respecting the rights of parents and I also believe that all seekers should have access to good information, regardless of age. You make a really good point, Rhys, about children being impressionable, but perhaps if Becca had had easy access to current, solid information, she wouldn't have had that idea of Wicca. On other hand (see what I mean about my being contradictory), it's easy to find solid information about Wicca that is freely given without restrictions or disclaimers, not just on the web, but any Borders or Barnes & Noble has a "New Age" section that's bound to have the basics.