I need help understanding!

[MoonMoth]

As I sit here in my apartment on Long Island crying for the victims of yesterday's terrorist attacks, worrying about business acquaintances, and wondering "why??", I can honestly say I am torn with conflicting emotions.

I am angry, no doubt about it.

I am also confused as to the reason why horrendous things like this happen. Is it really necessary for those involved (and we really are all involved) to learn their lessons in this life in this particular way? Some paths teach there is no absolute evil, as there is no absolute good. The people who are responsible for this certainly seem to be abosolutely evil to me. Yet we all practice tolerance for different religions, and it seems terrorists (all terrorists it seems) believe they will be rewarded by their gods, or are acting on behalf of their God. Their beliefs are as strong as ours.

But I am so angry, and want revenge so badly!! But I also want to understand, accept and forgive....I am so confused!

)0(
MoonMoth

[Illuminatus]

No reason. That's just how it is.

Really, I find it silly the way people tend to read meanings into things that aren't there, in some frantic attempt to "make sense" of an event. Go to the "Just Talk" thread, and read the "omen" thread... some guy finds a white feather, and gets a funny feeling. He thinks for some reason, this is related to the bombings the next day. Really. Dude. You found a feather on the ground. It's unrelated to the muslim jihad against the west.

The moral of my little rant is that you can't just arbitrarily assign meanings to some things just because you FEEL THEY SHOULD. Like, one type of rock means Healing and another means Balance. ???? cmon. They're different because of their chemical structures, their environmental exposure (how the pressure of the earth has affected them), and their material grain patterns, and for some, the cooling rate and crystalization structure (the two are very closely related).

Senseless acts occur. It's instinctive for us as humans to try to understand them, to somehow wrap up these horrifying events in an Reason, like a big ribbon, so that we would no longer have to be afraid of them. But more often than not, the ribbon doesn't fit, or the ribbon we find does not reassure us. If you sit on the floor and tell yourself that lighting a candle will help guide the spirits of the dead home, well, this may be comforting to you, and by all means light all the candles you want. However, I think such an act is really more about You than those you are honoring.

In this case, a group of men from the middle east, who think that the US is corrupting the world through its domination of entertainment, commerce and good old-fashioned western ideas got together and decided to try to stop it. They were conditioned by their familes from birth that if they lost their lives fighting the western devils, they would go to Paradise. And that's it. WHY do such twisted individuals exist? Again, go to the top - no reason.

- Ill

[MistOfTheSea86]

So basically what you are saying is that we should just take things how they are and not have any spirtuality whatsoever, forgive me If I am wrong I can hardly think that teling someone that they are silly just becausethey have spirituality and believe in signs is not only very rude, but alos very inconsiderate to their beliefs...

Just my two cents

[loopy]

<OT>I don't think Illuminatus was condemning anyone's spirituality. The question asked was "Why did this happen?" and he was just sharing his take on it. It is okay for everyone to have an opinion, even if it's not agreed with.</OT>

I agree on this one-- there was no reason. At least, no justifiable one in this case. The most we can do is jut accept that it DID happen and do our best to help ease our own and others' minds in whatever way we can.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Yeah I know loopy, it just seemed a bit different like he was saying that People with spirituality were foolish... Probably just me...

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by MistOfTheSea86
Yeah I know loopy, it just seemed a bit different like he was saying that People with spirituality were foolish... Probably just me...

People with spirituality are not foolish.

What IS foolish is this -- in not finding the answer to a question one is looking for, just making one up and settling the issue, instead of continuing to seek it. That's foolish.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Illuminatus


People with spirituality are not foolish.

What IS foolish is this -- in not finding the answer to a question one is looking for, just making one up and settling the issue, instead of continuing to seek it. That's foolish.

Ah I see... Yes many times we do need to look harder. But sometimes things can be viwed as signs... But others we need to look... Thank you for claryfying:)

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by MistOfTheSea86


Ah I see... Yes many times we do need to look harder. But sometimes things can be viwed as signs... But others we need to look... Thank you for claryfying:)

Yeah. I read a quote once that said "Religion stops a thinking mind." Now, it's not true in every case, in fact, it would better read "Unquestioned Organized Religion stops a thinking mind."

The point is, if you allow yourself to be spoon-fed answers from a man in your robe, your mind is growing stagnant. Question everything! Look for your own answers, question the ones you find, even the ones you discover yourself! The day you stop questioning and say "Ok okay that's enough" is the day you stop learning and growing.

Maybe we won't understand these recent events any time soon, or even at all, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying. Even if I can't find the pattern yet and personally assume that there is No Pattern, I'm still ready to revise my initial take on the universe.

- Ill

[mol]

I once heard..

Believe Nothing. Know Everything.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by mol
I once heard..

Believe Nothing. Know Everything.

Oh, I do! But nobody believes me :crylaugh:

[QueendeQrash]

There are so many things to consider in order to try to understand what happened. I will agree with Illuminatus, that they were raised (most likely) in there thoughts of other peoples cultures. But I feel that it goes back generations upon generations. One can say that one does not care for a people to their kid, just because that person ran over their pet hamsters when they were younger. Over the generations, the story becomes exaggerated to the point inwhich that person went on a drivin' death spree and ran over more than half a town.
In large, to even get an idea of what might have been the reason, one would have to do alot of research into cultures, religion, politics ect. and that is just the socially based stuff, next you have to look at the person. In the end, most of the time you are left with the same question...why?
Some people do find satisfaction with the why or question, when they ask themselves, what would cause them their selves to do such an act... or just how far will they go for what is most important to them ( their believes ect.). But, I have heard (read) that the trick to that, is that you must be totally honest with yourself.

IMO, in the end.

[slvr_phoenix]

Hmm... The best answer I can come up with for why it happened is this:

Some (in my opinion) sick individual(s) decided one day that they wanted it to happen, and so they put energy (and time and money) into it to make it happen.

So why did it happen? Because some people in the world are (to me) sick and twisted freaks. There's no supernatural, "God wanted them to die.", or predestined, "Because that was the path these people's lives were meant to take.", or karmatical, "Because the people in that tower were money-grubbing amoral monsters.", or chaosatical, "Because <explitive deleted> happens."

It happened because some people had unique (if not disgusting to the majority) morals. (Or a lack thereof.) And because they acted on them.

Such is life. On this Earth there will always be people with unique morals (or a lack of morals). They do stuff. That's what we have police and prisons for. These people just went to an all new level of extreme. There's still no better answer though than simply, "Because they could, and they wanted to. So they did. Now we pay for it."

[talamh]

i think to say the people who were responsible for the terrorist attacks were simply mentally ill or, even more simplistically, bad is too narrow an explanation.

Someone said earlier in this thread that to begin to understand, one would need to understand the culture, religion and history and politics of every country involved. i think unless one at least tries to have some of the background, any attempt to understand will only result in reinforcing one's own cultural views.

What happened is utterly horrific... but for people to have gone to all the energy and effort to do it means they were highly motivated. Why?

i don't mean to attack American forign policy or the American way of life, but i have been astonished over the past few weeks at how a lot of people in the US.. and a lot of other western countries... don't know much 20th century world history or specifically the role played by the United States and it's allies (including Canada) in the last 50 years.

America is a great country... but a lot of people (like myself) who admire so much about your country also have been upset at some of the trade practices, some of the repressive regeimes the US government has supported, some of the arms deals made, some of the armed conflicts engaged in.... and we're your friends. Imagine how your enemies feel?

i am not suggesting in anyway that your country "deserved" what happened. No one ever "deserves" such horrific death and violence.

But it was done by people who were seeking revenge on America for actions taken by your country that they very strongly disagree with.

That is why it happened. Until you understand the specifics of what they are upset about, you can't begin to solve the larger problems. This is not to say they are right and you are wrong.. just that that is the way they percieve and so that is their motivation.

No one wants to starve or live without hope or watch their children die from war, poverty and disease. Many ordinary people believe those sorts of things are happening in their lives as a direct result of American actions... so they are open to supporting fanatics who say they will destroy the source of the problem... i.e. the United States.

i think part of the answer is to begin by sending massive aid to the people of Afghanistan who are fleeing to border countries. Show them and the world that the United States is not the evil monster their leaders are telling them it is. People aren't stupid. And then help people find a way to support themselves.... micro loans, tax breaks, co-operatives.

Yes, terrorism must be stopped.... but unless western countries can do something about the conditions of poverty and political repression (often supported by the USA), the conditions that breed terrorism will continue to exist and so will the threat of terrorist attack. Food not bombs. Trade not Aid. Killing for peace is like giving up civil liberties in the name of freedom.

Now.. maybe this post should be over in Political Pagan... but i find that the larger questions aren't being asked over there as they are in this thread. Theology and politics are frequently inseperable for people on both sides of a conflict. So i feel any attempt to understand one without understanding the other will only result in a partial understanding.

God and Goddess bless America.. and the rest of the world as well. Right now, we all really need it. bb talamh