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Earth Walker
September 12th, 2001, 03:33 PM
We should say it loud and clear so that Dubya understands!
Let Interpol track down and arrest Osama bin Laden, and
put him on trial, and lock him up and throw away the key!

If Dubya sends the military into any country that harbours
bin Laden....Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Pakistan, Libya,
etc., it will touch off a Middle East War, and escalate into WW3.
Also remember that Israel is a nuclear hotbed.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/627028.asp?pne=msn

Powell: U.S. on war footing

http://www.msnbc.com/news/627086.asp?pne=msn

Nato mulls joint action.

Let's say no to joint military action, and pressure Interpol to
hunt down and arrest bin Laden.

Daniel
September 12th, 2001, 04:07 PM
If Dubya sends the military into any country that harbours bin Laden....Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Pakistan, Libya, etc., it will touch off a Middle East War, and escalate into WW3. Also remember that Israel is a nuclear hotbedPerhaps.

Meanwhile, if we don't inialate people who harbor and sponsor terrorists, they will continue to kill innocent, unsuspecting people.

This IS war. It's war with the victims of terrorism on one side, and the perpetrators and sponsors on the other side. The victims have every right to persue and inialate every single one of the people who would randomly disrupt their days with death and carnage and destruction. It's called self-defense.

Frankly, Interpol can go piss in the lake for all I care. If terrorists are going to come after us and kill tens of thousands of innocent sisters, brothers, mothers, fathers, sons and daughters in one stroke like this, they will have to be made to understand that we will not sit by and wait for others to track them down.

If you kill our loved ones, we will hunt you down. We will capture you. We will torture you. We will execute you. We will broadcast the footage worldwide to your buddies, and then we'll go after the people who harbored and sponsored you.

To hell with the terrorists, and to hell with anybody who has a problem with the United States defending itself. We, frankly, could give two squirts about what you think.

Earth Walker
September 12th, 2001, 04:15 PM
I'll say it again. Let Interpol track down bin Laden and arrest
him. Keep the military out of it!

Daniel
September 12th, 2001, 04:16 PM
I'll say it again. To hell with the terrorists, and to hell with anybody who has a problem with the United States defending itself. We, frankly, could give two squirts about what you think.

Spirahl
September 12th, 2001, 04:56 PM
I'm sure most people, I can anyway, understand both points of view? There is no winner and no right decision in times like this. Really, i'm torn...war- yes is damned scary...defense is also justified.

Earth Walker
September 12th, 2001, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Spirahl
I'm sure most people, I can anyway, understand both points of view? There is no winner and no right decision in times like this. Really, i'm torn...war- yes is damned scary...defense is also justified.

Yes, defense is justified, but not by military means of starting
a war.
Let Interpol track down bin Laden, arrest him, and extradite
him for trial....that's what they are there to do.

Daniel
September 12th, 2001, 05:11 PM
If it turns out we're dealing with state-sponsored terrorism, which it likely will, Interpol won't be able to do squat. Interpol is police, designed to handle individuals and individual crimes. Interpol is not equipped to apprehend or punish an entire government.

That is what military might is for.

Illuminatus
September 12th, 2001, 05:27 PM
Interpol. Pfft. Yeah, whatever Mystique. Real effective. Hey while we're at it, let's send a bunch of those canadian police on the horses, with the red uniforms. Those guys are BAD-ASS. I wonder how long would they last in the desert caves of Afghanistan?

- Ill

Spirahl
September 12th, 2001, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus
, let's send a bunch of those canadian police on the horses, with the red uniforms. Those guys are BAD-ASS. I wonder how long would they last in the desert caves of Afghanistan?

- Ill
Ill... that comment made me ill...
Canada has done nothing but support the US, as we always have, always will...
If the RCMP did go to Afghanistan, I'm sure they would do a tremendous job (although I doubt that they'd be wearing their dress uniforms... )
I've always tolerated your posts, although they can often be biting and sarcastic, you are often well-informed. However this time, you were not, or well-intentioned.
Way over the line.
Do not insult my country.

Illuminatus
September 12th, 2001, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Spirahl

Ill... that comment made me ill...
Canada has done nothing but support the US, as we always have, always will...
If the RCMP did go to Afghanistan, I'm sure they would do a tremendous job (although I doubt that they'd be wearing their dress uniforms... )
I've always tolerated your posts, although they can often be biting and sarcastic, you are often well-informed. However this time, you were not, or well-intentioned.
Way over the line.
Do not insult my country.

What, it's ok to Bash the US government and police organizations till the cows come home, but mention the canadian police and all of a sudden it's Big, Red Angry Words. Uh huh.

How about a compromise. How about: I'll say exactly whatever the hell I want about the RCMP, and you'll LIKE IT!!!!!! :) <-- (smiley indicates that I am joking!)

- Ill

Earth Walker
September 12th, 2001, 06:35 PM
I should join the Mounties. That way, I'll always be sure to get
my Woman/Women! hehehehe :mmm: :lol:

Spirahl
September 12th, 2001, 06:41 PM
I've never made a post to insult the US government...
but I'll start if you like...and you too will like it!
:p Joking smiley...
All governments suck...:eek: Not joking smiley.

loopy
September 12th, 2001, 08:24 PM
I can see both sides as well... not starting a war would be ideal, but at this point I just want something done. If it takes war to show those [expletive deleted] that we mean business, I say go for it. It might not be the best solution, but it's something.

Actually. They killed thousands of Americans in one day with no mercy. I'm not sure I'd care if we were to reciprocate.

EasternPriest
September 12th, 2001, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Mystique
I'll say it again. Let Interpol track down bin Laden and arrest
him. Keep the military out of it!

And I'll say it again. It's not Interpols business. It is not Vancouver or Canada that was attacked, it was the United States.

The US has every right to engage with a military reponse, if that is deemed the best way to go about it.

Myst
September 12th, 2001, 10:19 PM
Not to mention that he's commited such acts before and the US has asked Afghanistan to extradite him on numerous occasions and they would not. So, I'm sure you'll find lots of people who think they can go screw themselves.

And I have the same feeling right now as loopy.

Maybe it'd be better if we got one of the millionaires from our country to organize terrorist attacks against them - we'll get old Bill to load up some planes, maybe use some sort of Windows software to control the plane... it'll be great.... (and THAT was a joke too folks)

Skye
September 12th, 2001, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by EasternPriest


And I'll say it again. It's not Interpols business. It is not Vancouver or Canada that was attacked, it was the United States.

The US has every right to engage with a military reponse, if that is deemed the best way to go about it.

Well said,
I do not believe this was an individual terrorist atack, one that could be punichable in a criminal court.

Althought I did not vote for President Bush, I as a proud American, stand behind any decisions he may have to make.

That includes a full scale military atack on any country that is involved in what I consider An Act of WAR against the USA.

I know, most citizens in the USA apprieciate the enormous help of the Canadian government and its people, I don't think the Canadian government or its people have the right to downgrade our government for its consorted efforts of self defense, no matter what that defense maybe.

Myst
September 13th, 2001, 12:17 AM
I don't think what's been said here should be interpreted as Canada trying to take over. However, it's well known that Canada stands behind the U.S. fully and completely. I don't think anyone has suggested we are trying to say that the U.S. needs our help, just that our help is there if it IS wanted. Both countries are like one.

Incidentally, everyone keeps asking if this is the start of a war. Well, according to Bush's statement, we weren't the ones who commited the first act of war. Hopefully this war can be ended quickly and completely without loss of more lives.

Earth Walker
September 13th, 2001, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by Willow Raven
I don't think what's been said here should be interpreted as Canada trying to take over. However, it's well known that Canada stands behind the U.S. fully and completely. I don't think anyone has suggested we are trying to say that the U.S. needs our help, just that our help is there if it IS wanted. Both countries are like one.

Incidentally, everyone keeps asking if this is the start of a war. Well, according to Bush's statement, we weren't the ones who commited the first act of war. Hopefully this war can be ended quickly and completely without loss of more lives.

If Dubya starts a war, it won't just be soldiers being killed.
Just like every other war, it is the non-combatant civilans
who get it the worst...women, children and men.
I am not saying that bin Laden shouldn't be punished, by all
means he should...but starting a war is not the way to do it;
because that would only further inflame Islamists, and escalate
the war, more acts of "retaliation", etc.....and yes, my feelings
would be the same if it had been Canada instead of the U.S.

EasternPriest
September 13th, 2001, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by Mystique


If Dubya starts a war, it won't just be soldiers being killed.
Just like every other war, it is the non-combatant civilans
who get it the worst...women, children and men.
I am not saying that bin Laden shouldn't be punished, by all
means he should...but starting a war is not the way to do it;
because that would only further inflame Islamists, and escalate
the war, more acts of "retaliation", etc.....and yes, my feelings
would be the same if it had been Canada instead of the U.S.

"Dubya" wouldn't start a war, however president Bush may respond to the war that has already started.

Skye
September 13th, 2001, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by EasternPriest


"Dubya" wouldn't start a war, however president Bush may respond to the war that has already started.

My thoughts as well.

Myst
September 13th, 2001, 12:46 AM
I know what you mean Mystique and agree with you. Goddess knows we don't need another war.

For EP and Skye though, I also agree Bush hasn't started a war, most people believe the terrorists and the people who have harboured them for years did. Hopefully Bush can let that war end where it has begun and deal with the rest in a more peaceful way.

I think they are just trying to prove if bin Laden did it, and if he did, they will ask Afghanistan to hand him over or at least let them go in and find him. If he did do it, and Afghanistan won't comply, who's perpetuated the war - the U.S., or Afghanistan? After all, the guy has already commited terrorist crimes and they should've given him up in the first place.

Let's just hope that the perpetrators can be found and brought to justice without more explosives...

loopy
September 13th, 2001, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by EasternPriest


"Dubya" wouldn't start a war, however president Bush may respond to the war that has already started.

I agree. And I for one would stand behind him in that decision.

We all want to avoid a war, but if another country wants to start it, I think it would be counterproductive to sit on our hands and play the peacemakers. Edited because I agree that more peaceful measures should be taken first, but if that doesn't work, then I'm all for more violent means.

Any more lives, be they from whatever country, would be best preserved. However, responding to the war statement may be for the Greater Good. If other countries see that they can attack us and just get a slap on the wrist and jailtime... I don't see what would be stopping them from attacking us too.

Myst
September 13th, 2001, 01:02 AM
Does anyone else want to know where those explosions in Afghanistan came from..?

feywytch
September 13th, 2001, 01:22 AM
No I do not want war.....
Yes I want to see Justice...

And yes we never learn.
Each time crisis occur USA states unequivically what they have learned etc etc.....then apathy sets in and it is business as usual and the memory fades so that when it occurs next ( a crisis) we are caught with our proverbial asses hanging....and the vicitms the price. I have watched this happen time and time again.....and it will happen again......because time will fade it for those who could make a difference in policies, in security measures, etc....

Do I really want to get into an argument about where we need to look...No. As of yet I have heard all the speculations.....but not one statement that beyond all doubt it was this person or that person......find the bastard..the right one, not a guess, not a scapegoat and then decide the best steps.....do what must be done.

Do I think any more deaths will make a difference ..no, it will not bring back what was.....merely give those who lost a sense of closure a sense of justice.

We have to reassess the very things that make us America..and what lessons must not be forgotten.

But .... and this has been on my mind ALOT.......... what if..........
what if this is not outside influences alone..................WHAT IF there was some homegrown terrorist involvement.........and gods I feel this strongly.....ho wmany thought oklahoma was iranian terrorists for a bit.....and lo and behold it was on eof our citizens..............it is entirely possible............


WHAT IF war must be declared from within......

Myst
September 13th, 2001, 03:15 AM
Sen. Lott - "We are at war whether we declare it or not!"

Twilight Garden
September 13th, 2001, 03:51 AM
I'm of sorta mixed opinion on this...

I don't remember quite what Ghandi said, but it was something like: An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. I agree.

If there was a way to take care of the leader (and if it would actually take care of the problem) then I'd be all for that. After all, the Gods don't help those who don't help themselves.

I've never really approved of all out battling war. But sometimes it seems there's no other way. See what I mean.. mixed opinion.

Illuminatus
September 13th, 2001, 10:50 AM
But it won't BE a war. Not even close. It will be an all-out massacre, like the Gulf "War". How many US soldiers were lost in that "War", like a hundred or so, including pilots? Compared to, oh say about a hundred thousand iraquis killed or captured??

When you get right down to it, an Act of War has to punish not only the individual who directly commits the act.... it has to punish his entire support system. The individuals who housed, fed, and trained him. The individuals who equipped him. The individuals who transported him. Hell, even the guy two nations over who sold him a gun, you need to get them too. And most important, the one who ordered the attack from his safe little bunker half a world over. THAT is why the Vietnam and Korean wars never really ended, both sides had support from a parent nation, and neither side had even a CHANCE of destroying the other's support system.

When the US destroyed the last Japaneese carrier group, did they all just say to themselves 'OK, JOB'S DONE, LET'S GO THE HELL HOME'. No. Because the job wasn't done. The entire support system had to be uprooted, or the whole damn plant would grow back. These are the elements that must be annahilated. Throw in any civillian foolish enough to stand in your way, and that's the job that's on Bush's table right now.

- Ill

Swanspirit
September 13th, 2001, 02:04 PM
But if I am not mistaken ....Ghandi had his faults too and he practiced sexual abuse on young women .........
I think this is not an AMERICAN PROBLEM.
The entire world knows that we cannot be held hostage by these killers using religion as an excuse for mass murder. THE WORLD knows they ALL have tall buildings and airplanes full of fuel, and we HAVE NO CHOICE but to stop them.
Love and light
Swannie

Danustouch
September 13th, 2001, 02:13 PM
evidence about this sexual abuse allegation toward Ghandi, Swan???????? I revere the man..and NEVER amongst all of my research have I heard these accusations. I would like documentation about that, and will of course, examine the source. It is indeed possible that those accusations were made by people who disagreed with his philosophies, afterall. His philosophies stand as a gem in a world of coal. And I for one, will not believe this of him, until I see the source, and research it for myself.

Swanspirit
September 13th, 2001, 02:17 PM
he practiced celibacy ........ with his wife but he "tested himself" with young women not his wife and "failed" .........
It is documented........
He still accomplished a great deal but has serioulsy fallen in my eyes as a "hero" he is just a man and one with serious failings.
Love and light
Swannie

Danustouch
September 13th, 2001, 02:19 PM
So in other words..you can't provide the documentation, or the evidence???????????And yet you openly post the "Accusation"..hmmmm...not good to leave us hanging, swan.

Swanspirit
September 13th, 2001, 02:23 PM
sorry but you dont have to take my word for it at all .........---heroes and "saints" come down hard..........just a private thing with me about "saints" I think that when you elevate them above us it takes away from their humanity
but this totally off topic another time ......
Love and light
Swannie-

Twilight Garden
September 13th, 2001, 03:31 PM
I don't follow anyone whole heartedly, no matter how they are looked upon. I just follow my heart and my own mind. When someone says something I agree with, the thought sticks with me. Bin Laden himself could have said it and I'd still attempt to quote. It's the simple thought behind the words that I utilize. This is why I don't idolize 'people'.

On the other hand karmic reprecution?sp? is a form of "eye for an eye". And I do believe in that.

Illuminatus
September 13th, 2001, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by LunarMist
I don't follow anyone whole heartedly, no matter how they are looked upon. I just follow my heart and my own mind. When someone says something I agree with, the thought sticks with me. Bin Laden himself could have said it and I'd still attempt to quote. It's the simple thought behind the words that I utilize. This is why I don't idolize 'people'.

On the other hand karmic reprecution?sp? is a form of "eye for an eye". And I do believe in that.

Isn't it supposed to be threefold? But how do you poke out three eyes, when nobody has more than two? confused....

IOLO
September 13th, 2001, 04:09 PM
I know this is a bit off the "thread"...but it has been brought up in the thread....and seems to be recurrent throughout the neo-pagan, wiccan, etc. dogma.....but when and where did Karma, a tenet of Hinduism and Indian Buddhism become a tenet of neo-paganism, wicca, etc.??

It certainly is NOT a western European doctrine or belief, and it does not naturally devolve from a belief in re-incarnation. ( although many who believe in reincarnation may also believe in Karma...the two are not necessarily linked)

Karma is not simple cause and effect, eye for an eye....it is much more involved than that....and cannot be considered without simultaneously considering dharma. (But not Gregg...haha)...

In reading a lot of postings I notice a lot of things like that which seem to be "accepted"--almost "axiomatic" in the neo-pagan thought.....which have absolutelty no connection with western European..(.and most certainly no connection with Celtic)....origin.....and yet now seemed to have taken on an almost dogmatic orthodoxy......It's really odd to hear someone claiming to practice "ancient Irish witchcraft" or whatever and then spout far eastern philosophy....

So who can 'xplain???

IOLO

Twilight Garden
September 13th, 2001, 04:26 PM
I said "a form of" which to me means that it is similar to, not an exact replica of.

I think whoever is behind this tragedy or took any part of it will have their karma do what it will. However, I was wondering what you think the karma might be like for a person who has intentionally killed thousands of people. How could it possibly make up for what has been done? Will it go on for many of his/their lives?

Also, what are your thoughts on this: A friend of mine said that revenge is human's inability to let karma do it's job, feeling the need to see for themselves that justice is done. I don't know i'm still pondering it.

Personally, I'm confused as to what *I* feel is really the best decision for retaliation. (Can you tell?)

IOLO
September 13th, 2001, 05:05 PM
..well I am not a good one to answer that....perhaps someone who is a Hindu could....I have read Indian philosophy but would never claim to be anything near an expert in it....

I would say however that it is hard to judge someone elses karma for him or her....as you also have to know the dharma under which the person is operating...

I think we in the west have a very simplistic view of what karma is all about.....it's certainly more complex than "eye for an eye", or "what you give out you get back"....

I don't know what to tell you about the fate of nurderers such as those....I would like to believe that eventually they will reap their "spiritual" rewards for suffering they have caused others....but I don't know if you or I can say if that will be or not....

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful....

IOLO

Mythrel
September 13th, 2001, 05:12 PM
Gunner posted this under the gun laws post awhile back. I truly believe this says it all!!!

Originally posted by gunner
"Never initiate force against another. That should be the underlying principle of your life. But should someone do violence to you, retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, without quarter, until you are sure that he will never wish to harm -- or never be capable of harming -- you or yours again."

We need swift and decisive action against all terrorism and any country that allows terrorist groups to work within there countries. I don't think we should just go after Bin Laden and his people. I think we should just start with him, then take out Afghanistan, and continue with all the other terrorist groups in the world as well as the countries harboring them!!

I am also including an editorial from a Canadian newspaper here as well for your reading. I love what this says....

____________________________________________________


TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
> >
> > This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth
> > sharing. America: The Good Neighbor.
> >
> > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for
> > the Americans as the most generous and possibly
> > the least appreciated people on all the earth.
> > Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain
> > and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by
> > the Americans who poured in billions of dollars
> > and forgave other billions in debts. None of
> > these countries is today paying even the interest
> > on its remaining debts to the United States.
> >
> > When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
> > it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
> > reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
> > streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
> >
> > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
> > United States that hurries in to help. This
> > spring, 59 American communities were flattened by
> > tornadoes. Nobody helped.
> >
> > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
> > billions of dollars into discouraged countries.
> > Now newspapers in those countries are writing
> > about the decadent, war-mongering Americans.
> >
> > I'd like to see just one of those countries that
> > is gloating over the erosion of the United States
> > dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
> > country in the world have a plane to equal the
> > Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the
> > Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
> > do all the International lines except Russia fly
> > American Planes?
> >
> > Why does no other land on earth even consider
> > putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk
> > about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.
> > You talk about German technocracy, and you get
> > automobiles.
> >
> > You talk about American technocracy, and you find
> > men on the moon - not once, but several times -
> > and safely home again.
> >
> > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put
> > theirs right in the store window for everybody to
> > look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
> > and hounded. They are here on our streets, and
> > most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian
> > laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa
> > at home to spend here.
> >
> > When the railways of France, Germany and India
> > were breaking down through age, it was the
> > Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania
> > Railroad and the New York Central went broke,
> > nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are
> > still broke.
> >
> > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans
> > raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can
> > you name me even one time when someone else raced
> > to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there
> > was outside help even during the San Francisco
> > earthquake.
> >
> > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
> > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
> > kicked around. They will come out of this thing
> > with their flag high. And when they do, they are
> > entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that
> > are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
> > Canada is not one of those."
> >
> > Stand proud, America!
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > This is one of the best editorials that I have
> > ever read regarding the United States. It is nice
> > that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
> > rest of the world would realize it. We are always
> > blamed for everything, and never even get a thank
> > you for the things we do.
> >
> > I would hope that each of you would send this to
> > as many people as you can and emphasize that they
> > should send it to as many of their friends until
> > this letter is sent to every person on the web. I
> > am just a single American that has read this, I
> > SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.

Emerald Sky
September 13th, 2001, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus


Isn't it supposed to be threefold? But how do you poke out three eyes, when nobody has more than two? confused....

Hey, don't forget that third eye in the middle of your forehead... :)

Emerald Sky
September 13th, 2001, 05:34 PM
I agree with what you said. I, too, have wondered about the possibility that this could've been done by a fellow-American. <<shudder>>

This is really a difficult decision to make - as to retaliate or not. (Just glad the decision isn't mine to make.) Many good points have been made on both sides of the debate.

Yes, we are somewhat "forced" to retaliate in some way to show the world and other terrorist that the US does not and will not tolerate any form of terrorism. As others have said, you can't just sit by and let someone slap you in the face over and over and do nothing about it... that is being a passive doormat. I think the whole world is enraged and disgusted by what has happened. I think we have many allies behind us, supporting our decision to retaliate.

However, I for one, don't want to see anymore violence, sorrow or bloodshed. Am I the only one who doesn't seek revenge? I know it's not a very popular opinion, and no, I don't expect the US to ignore what has happened, but it's who I am - I don't believe in revenge. I don't think it puts closure on the situation. I don't think it makes anyone truly feel better. It doesn't undo the carnage and desolation. It doesn't bring back the dead. I just think it is a waste of energy and lives. (My opinion - you can disagree if you wish.)

Yes, the people responsible need to be stopped from doing this again. Yes, they even need to be punished, but punished WHY? Because we're angry and want to see the b@st@rd suffer? IMO, that's the wrong reason... that's revenge, and as I stated above, I don't think any good comes from revenge.

Maybe I'm just too much of a fluffy-bunny (I admit it), but I know that decisions made out of anger and emotion are usually not wise decisions. Most of the world is angry and emotional right now. Let's just pray to our gods that they give the president and those who help him make decisions, strength and wisdom to do what will resolve this mess in the most peaceful manner.

Illuminatus
September 13th, 2001, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by LunarMist
Also, what are your thoughts on this: A friend of mine said that revenge is human's inability to let karma do it's job, feeling the need to see for themselves that justice is done. I don't know i'm still pondering it.

You have it backwards. Karma is human's inability (or rather, unwillingness) to see justice done in this life. Instead of punishing terrorists, a buddist monk would say "don't worry about it. They will pay for their crimes next time around." Whereas, all the non-buddist monks in this world, like me, believe in justice with a faster turnaround.

- Ill

Twilight Garden
September 13th, 2001, 06:55 PM
You people are so smart:) Anyway- I had a new thought come to me about the whole Karma/Dharma thing... I was not seeing as big a picture as I could. (I realize the karma of the terrorist is none of my business. I'm just a curious soul.) "The Terrorist(s)" could end up coming back in the next life as a great inventor and invent a cure for aids or something, save millions of lives. {Kill, kill, kill. Let him go on to his next life. JUST KIDDING:)}
Who knows... I just know that I'm starting to lean towards: Let us fight for our defense. I (like ES) am glad this isn't a decision I have to make. I'm glad the Pres is taking the time to sort out the facts. (He still is, isn't he?)

Myst
September 13th, 2001, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus
But it won't BE a war. Not even close. It will be an all-out massacre, like the Gulf "War".

My fiance's response was "War? What war? If they don't hand whoever's responsible over the U.S. will just blow their country off the face of the earth. Not much of a war, is it?". You have, what, all of NATO (19 countries) against Afghanistan, and maybe Iraq and Palestine will back them up...? Just a thought.

As far as karma.... I know karma exists. I also know it doesn't necessarily return in the person's current lifetime, nor does it necessarily show itself as karma for what they did. That's the difference between karma and justice - justice seeks to provide punishment appropriate for the crime and to show the person they were wrong. Do you believe the people involved believe in karma? I think first and foremost they should realized that their heinous crimes won't go unpunished, and it should be made very obvious and clear to them.

http://msnbc.com/news/627028_asp.htm

Illuminatus
September 14th, 2001, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Willow Raven
As far as karma.... I know karma exists. I also know it doesn't necessarily return in the person's current lifetime, nor does it necessarily show itself as karma for what they did. That's the difference between karma and justice - justice seeks to provide punishment appropriate for the crime and to show the person they were wrong. Do you believe the people involved believe in karma? I think first and foremost they should realized that their heinous crimes won't go unpunished, and it should be made very obvious and clear to them.

A big question about Karma is not so much WHETHER it exists, but HOW. A woman gets raped in Vietnam. Happened a lot a few decades ago I understand. Now, typical Buddist teachings explain this atrocity like so: "It must be payback for something you did in a past life. Perhaps YOU were the rapist then, and this experience serves to temper you and teach you from that experience."

Which brings up the question of the Rapist - now, is he serving the interest of Karma by committing the rape? Is he merely a Tool of Karma? If he is, then is he bad, or good? Or is he acting of his own accord, and if he hadn't paid the woman back, she would be paid back in a different manner, like a natural disaster. Or rather, is he just another spoke on the wheel, of these people going around hurting each other of their own free will, with Karma just setting them up in positions where they will be hurt or harmed based on their previous actions.

I find this theory a bit flawed, as the traditional interpretation punishs/rewards individuals in their current life for deeds done in the past. I don't like the thought of me being held responsible for something my soul might have done a few hundred years back.
Sort of gives you a sense of morbid hoplessness. A bit like the concept of Original Sin -- the minute you are born, you are already knee deep in sin, inhereted from your parents.

Additionally, anyone seeking to make justice in THIS life, well they get negative karma that gets paid back to them in the NEXT life! If I kill a terrorist, instead of letting karma take care of him in it's own sweet time, well, then is this an act that *I* will someday pay for?

- Ill

Myst
September 14th, 2001, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus
I don't like the thought of me being held responsible for something my soul might have done a few hundred years back.


Oh and if the answers were so easy to find. If it were that easy and obvious why would we spend so many years hanging around trying to live life to figure it out? Perhaps both the rapist and the raped person were in that situation due to karma. Perhaps the rapist will receive his own karma in the future. Perhaps the raped person needed to learn some sort of lesson (ie. not taking a sip out of a drink you've received from a stranger)... Who knows? The answers just aren't that simple.

And I think the point of it was to give a sense *of* control. No having to worry about how some guy in the sky is going to judge you. You just damn well hope you were a good boy in the past life, or be a good one now so karma will favour you in the future. Maybe if you were a bad boy you had to learn a lesson of punishment or needed to change....

Well, I don't know anything, and I'm just a wee bit off topic, so I'll shut up now :)

Illuminatus
September 14th, 2001, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Willow Raven
Oh and if the answers were so easy to find. If it were that easy and obvious why would we spend so many years hanging around trying to live life to figure it out? Perhaps both the rapist and the raped person were in that situation due to karma. Perhaps the rapist will receive his own karma in the future. Perhaps the raped person needed to learn some sort of lesson (ie. not taking a sip out of a drink you've received from a stranger)... Who knows? The answers just aren't that simple.

Well I don't care if they are complicated.. so long as they are consistent. But it's a moot point, since we can't know either way!


And I think the point of it was to give a sense *of* control. No having to worry about how some guy in the sky is going to judge you. You just damn well hope you were a good boy in the past life, or be a good one now so karma will favour you in the future. Maybe if you were a bad boy you had to learn a lesson of punishment or needed to change....


Eh. I sort of like the Guy-In-The-Sky system a little better. Because, well, what about the vast majority of people who DON'T REMEMBER their past lives. If I'm going to get payback next month for being hitler last time around, well, I don't think it's kewl to be punished for something i don't remember doing. That's totally bogus. Even if I'm the same guy I was last time, well, whose to say I haven't ALREADY learned in the 24 years I've been in this brand spankin new body.

So since nobody else is repsonding I take it that you're the only one who hasn't put me on Ignore Willow! :) :eyebrow:

- Illuminatus

Spirahl
September 14th, 2001, 08:07 PM
You aren't on ignore here either...:cool:
I don't see karma as punishment/reward,
I see it as lessons to learn/lessons to teach...
that's entirely my own take on it, I don't know if others would agree with it or not. But I don't like the idea of blaming victims.
A child is born with Down's, are they being punished?...
I think not...
yep, it's complicated!

Sleeping Ghost
September 14th, 2001, 10:14 PM
i personally belive that war would be the best thing right now... whether that is my anger talking.. i dunno...
we CANNOT sit around here twidling our thumbs while Interpol tries to find Osama
now i realize as soon as we declare war, we're gonna have every muslim country crawlin up our ass... but i think we can handle them...

everyone at my school thinks we should nuke em.... no that would be stupid...

everyone at my school is worried kuz pakistan has nukes.... don't worry.. the don't even have an ICBM powerful enough to get it halfway across the ocean...

IM thinking we go all out, send everyone over there and just wait for osama to stick his head out. and then unload on 'em. we got alot of europe, and maybe even russia might decide to jump in with us so they can get the afghans back for the loss russia suffered at their hands. I know this is an ogreish way to look at it, but ah well

raevyncigany
September 14th, 2001, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus
Interpol. Pfft. Yeah, whatever Mystique. Real effective. Hey while we're at it, let's send a bunch of those canadian police on the horses, with the red uniforms. Those guys are BAD-ASS. I wonder how long would they last in the desert caves of Afghanistan?

- Ill


JUMP UP MY ASS, ILL!! :razz::razz::razz:

Can't do any worse, now could they??

For your information, the RCMP is responsible for saving countless lives, and whether you believe it or not (and frankly, I don't CARE if you do) it's the peacemakers that have the most effect on the world, NOT the warmongers (but Goddess forbid that I 'accuse' anyone of being 'for the war', so just strike that statement, okay?). My father was an Ontario Provincial Police officer for 20 years and a naval sonar officer for 7 years before that. EFFECTIVE, as you put it, means something completely different to me, and that is that he was always there when he was needed....ALWAYS...I think that goes for anyone else who has the guts and the LOVE for their country to try and help to rectify or at least ease the global pain caused by these horrible acts....Interpol, the RCMP, the Bobbies of London, hell, even the KGB for Gaea's sake...if we all pull together, we can send terrorism packing....

GROW UP

BB

Rae )0(

Laiste
September 14th, 2001, 11:22 PM
We are not waging war against anyone!!! They have waged war against us!!! If wish everything were that simple and we could just simply go and arrest one man and there would be peace in the world...I think there is a misconception about terrorists. They are not controlled by one person. There are many groups out there who hate, whether it be because of religion, race or another riduiculous reason. The big problem is most of these groups have been raised with this hate and have also been raised in war torn countries. As an American I cannot relate to thier world. But, as an American I cannot sit by and say, oh well, they killed thousands of people in my country in one day. I am a peacful person but these people need to be stopped!! Not to mention the fact that if we sit back and do nothing this can happen again and it could be a lot worse!! Scary thought, huh!


On another note...I don't understand why our government is not providing all that is need to the thousands of people working on the recovery in NYC. I just heard on the news that they need 200 masks for the wokers by tomorrow morning. What could they averge person do about that??!! I have set up a pennies fund at my sons school for the red cross. My family and friends all chipped in and bought clothes and other things that they need. We brought them to our local fire dept. I just don't understand why other important things are not being provided. Does anybody know whats up with that?

EasternPriest
September 15th, 2001, 12:02 AM
War has been declared on the United States by an organized malitia from the Middle East. What remains to be decided is the tone and timing of the response, not that somehow the US military shouldn't be involved.

AS far as letting Interpol handle bin Laden, he's been on the top 10 list for 10 years now. Interpol obviously isn't up to it.

raevyncigany
September 15th, 2001, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Laiste
We are not waging war against anyone!!! They have waged war against us!!!

I didn't say you were, Laiste, and if my statements somehow implied that, then I apologize profusely. I agree that we cannot just sit back and turn the other cheek. What scares me the most is that the decision to do anything or nothing about it is a double-edged sword. The retaliation could very well be worse than the original act (although at this point in time, I cannot even fathom HOW...my mind is still reeling from pictures of some of the victims that were on those planes...a two and a half year old little girl...my daughter is that age...that could have been her *sob*). And even if they do take bin Laden (or whoever is responsible) to trial and punish him, he is already a hero in someone's eyes...and if he or someone else dies for this heinous crime, in someone's eyes they will have died a martyr. Just burns my butt to NO end...

Once again, I apologize if my words offended, or offend now...I weep for the World...we need to come together as ONE to save ourselves from self-annihilation

BB

Rae )0(

Laiste
September 15th, 2001, 12:38 AM
Raevyn,

Sorry for the confusion. My comments were not directed at you or anyone else for that matter. My post just happened to follow yours. I was Just stating my feelings on the subject. I can understand the other side of this matter as well. I certanly have been personally touched by this tradgedy. My brother in law, my friends husband and another friends husband are all there right now working on the recovery.

Up until recently I lived about 30 minutes from NYC. We frequently visited there with our son. He is devestated by what has happened. NYC is the place he always chose to go when it was his turn to pick. Now he has haunting memories everywhere he looks. His bedroom wall with the NYC skyline pictures our photo albums with pics of our jaunts there. His playroom covered with his scetches of NYC. His collection of NYC miniature building models. His T-shirts, even his bath robe depict NYC buildings.

We recently lost my Grandmother and had to travel down to Yonkers (about 15 miles from NYC) for the funeral on Tuesday morning. We had no clue what had happened and found out while traveling in the car from the radio. We were all horrified and debated turnig around and going home. All the while we were traveling there were jet fighters fliying overhead and emergency vehicles passing us. When we finally arrived in Yonkers we could see the smoke billowing up into the sky and even smell it burning. During the funeral we could hear the fighter planes flying overhead and everyone was so scared and would just look up and wonder if it would happen again. I fear for everyone in the world right now. I hope we can find a way out of with without going to war. That fear I've been feeling could get a lot worse! I will pray for peace.

Sorry for the ramble. I needed to rant about it.

Blessings to everyone.

Xois
September 15th, 2001, 07:55 AM
Wow

We really are all being wagged...Just what bush needed for to boost is lagging approval rating...

*sigh*

Sorry, I love conspiracy theories...and I put nothing past the Bush regime

Myst
September 15th, 2001, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Spirahl
I don't see karma as punishment/reward,
I see it as lessons to learn/lessons to teach...
that's entirely my own take on it, I don't know if others would agree with it or not. But I don't like the idea of blaming victims.
A child is born with Down's, are they being punished?...
I think not...
yep, it's complicated!

Very complicated, and I agree with you on what you said.

And for the record, as a Canadian, I tool Illy's comment on the RCMP as a joke - I'm pretty sure that's what it was meant as ;)

Earth Walker
September 15th, 2001, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Xois
Wow

We really are all being wagged...Just what bush needed for to boost is lagging approval rating...

*sigh*

Sorry, I love conspiracy theories...and I put nothing past the Bush regime

I agree 100% :)

Myst
September 15th, 2001, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Mystique


I agree 100% :)

And I think you're both nuts. :D

Daniel
September 15th, 2001, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Xois
Wow

We really are all being wagged...Just what bush needed for to boost is lagging approval rating...

*sigh*

Sorry, I love conspiracy theories...and I put nothing past the Bush regime Ah, yes, why didn't I see it before?

Bush hijacks the election with the help of the Supreme Court and Florida's 25 electoral votes, despite rippling legal battles. Despite the best efforts of his cabinet (which is collectively the real power behind the throne) leaks regarding Cheney's outright blackmailing of the Justices (in election matters) gets out to a few people. As people talk behind closed doors, the truth slowly begins to get out.

The Bush Administration orchistrates a brilliant plan: kill those in the know, and make it look like a terrorist attack, so that nobody (except brilliant minds like Xios and Mystique) would ever suspect the President. They hijack four planes, aim two of them at the twin towers of the World Trade Center (apparently a hotbed of truth-talking), one at the White House (for authenticity), and one more for good measure.

The two targeted at the WTC hit right on the mark, killing thousands (including those who knew the truth). The one aimed at the White House is diverted at the last moment when Bush remembers that he forgot to pack up his bottle collection and move it to Camp David for safe keeping, and it winds up plowing into the nearby Pentagon building. The fourth one, no longer required, is simply ditched in Pensylvania, and that one is publicly attributed to an attempted passenger takeover.

Success! All the dangerous citizens, legally engaging in intellectual discourse about the hijacking of the election, are killed in a blaze of glory! Bush gets to jump into action and look like he's the man for the job after all, talking to rescue workers and landing billions in Federal aid for New York City! Pataki, unpopular with his own party at present, gets to ride this wave of political heroism, possibly into reelection! Annoyingly uncooperative Islamic states are obliterated in a hail of righteous indignation, otherwise known as American nuclear weapons! Muslims are randomly kicked around and otherwise harassed in America, making all non-muslims feel like the US of A really is the greatest country on Earth!

And smart cookies like Xois and Mystique know enough to keep their mouths shut, lest a 747 come along delivering a personal message from President Bush.

Gosh, why didn't I see it before? You guys are just so smart.

Shy Hawk
September 15th, 2001, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Mystique


I agree 100% :)

Mystique, Xois, you know I love y'all....but I couldn't disagree more.

I just can't stand all of this demonizing of GWB. Even if we don't agree with his politics (and often times I don't...more often than not actually)....it's hard to hate a person that you don't really even know. We only know the face that we see on the news. Maybe George, the guy, the person, the dude (heh...) is a fun loving, caring, decent person that we just don't know well enough.

Xois
September 15th, 2001, 06:54 PM
Hey Daniel and Shy

Switch to decaf! ;)

hehehe

Xois
September 15th, 2001, 07:00 PM
Maybe George, the guy, the person, the dude (heh...) is a fun loving, caring, decent person that we just don't know well enough.

And if we were both just oridanry citizens hanging out at the mall, I'd care if he was a fun loving, caring, decent person...but all I care about are his policies...he has demonized himself through those...he needs to help from me! :D

Xois

Tigerwallah
September 15th, 2001, 09:49 PM
This "War" has been many many years in the making.

President Clinton had Osama bin Laden's location in December, but amidst much contraversy, he decided not to act because of the criticism that would follow. He held meetings with Congress. They discussed possible military actions, but, in the end, he just couldn't take any more hounding from the press, and the right wing, and those who killed the sailors of the USS Cole were not brought to justice, and lived to attack again. At least one of the hyjackers were involved with the bombing of the Cole.

Many countries give aid and backing to bin Laden. The United States is evil to many of the Islamic nations. We represent capitalism and greed. They hate that women like me walk around in pants, are sexually independant, and are free individuals. They hate our way of life. They hate us because we are free.
They celebrated in the streets as the symbols of American capitalism fell. As the Great City of New York burned, and as her children died, they cheered.

They are calling for a "Holy War." They will not stop at these killings, and why should they? They believe that killing us gives them a free ticket into heaven. This is how they have so many willing to die. They have killed before this. What would stop them from killing after this? WE WILL!

One of my goddesses is the great goddess of strength and war, Sekhemet. There is a time for the gentle Isis, but there is a time for the fierce warrior. Now is that time. This is not about revenge. It is about justice, and it is about keeping our freedom and regaining our security. They destroyed more than the WTC. They killed more than 5,000 people. They destroyed our ability to walk into a national monument or a skyscraper or onto a plane without wondering if we will ever see our families again. I will not live in terror. I will fight for freedom.

There is a time for Peace. This is not that time.

Twilight Garden
September 15th, 2001, 10:02 PM
I'd like to believe that most people are fun loving, decent people but that doesn't mean I want them running my country. Still he's already here and we as Americans have to accept it. We don't have to like it.

(My love's little girl doesn't like going to bed. She can go to bed kicking and screaming and tire herself out that way. Or she can crawl into bed and lay there, in which case she's usually asleep within 10 minutes. Wish it was that easy for me.)

We can use our strengths to come up with conspiricy theories and the like or we can deal with the problem at hand. We've been attacked. How Bush got his Presidency is no longer relevent. Unless ,of course, you think you're going to impeach the President. Which seems to me like a really bad idea with what is going on.

*I hope I don't sound like I'm giving a lecture. This is just my take on what's going on around me.

Shy Hawk
September 15th, 2001, 10:17 PM
Plus, it'd be hard to make a case right now. He hasn't done much impeachable yet.

I don't think I'd want a leader who I didn't think was a good person. :smash: And, I was just saying that it's easy to judge someone that you don't really know. That's all.

----------> Shy is allergic to caffeine anyhow. :nyah:

Sleeping Ghost
September 15th, 2001, 11:37 PM
i think my father and i have analized this enough.. and figured out a solution.

first, we identify the enemy- if we attack afghanistan the rest of the muslim nations will crawl right up our ass... the good thing is the only people that will actually fight us willingly are the fanatics.. and there aren't enough for us to worry about... pakistan, maybe egypt, uzbekistan, and all those people will fight us. China should be considered, since china deals the afghans weapons, but i think china realizes that we pretty much ARE their economy and we are a source of many jobs for them.

second we identify our forces/ allies-
America- Marines, the marine special forces, Navy, Navy seals, Army, Delta Force, Air force, air force special forces.
Britain- their army and the special forces (SAS)
Germany- army and their special forces (GGS)
France- army and their special forces (GIGN)
the rest of europe- their armies
I belive Russia might help us out too, if not for revenge on afghanistan, then for the reclimation of the lands the lost (uzbekistan, etc.). if we let them have their lands back they'll join up.

third- infighting- Iran and Iraq HATE each other. the will not be able to stay allied for very long so we will have the advantage in that area

we now identify the threat of nuclear warfare-
as far as im concerned, the threat of nukes actually being used is a slim one... the world knows the effects of radioactive fallout and they probably won't risk it.

tactics- i say we wait about a year... right now, those people are quivering in their boots waiting for us to attack... they "know" we will, the just dont know when... so we let them boil in their own juices for about a year, while the CIA and our other agencies gather info about populations, strategic positions, key places, etc... then after the data is collected and analized... we can plan out our attack to the maximum effectiveness...

i think if we plan this out right.. we can cut through them like a hot knife through butter... i hate war to be the only alternative... but it is necessary

- the ghost never sleeps

cydira
September 15th, 2001, 11:58 PM
I think my attitudes on warfare are fairly clear. If they're not, you can easily find them described in the discussions over in Just Talk.

I have to say, however, that y'all are seriously unjustified in your attitudes towards the President of the United States in the light of what has occured.

Yes, there is disagreement as to if the way he entered office is legitamate or not. Yes, there is disagreement as to his policies. I'll say nothing to begrudge your disagreements. It's through disagreements that we eventually find common ground.

There is one important fact here that is getting lost in the carnage of the argument. George W. Bush is President of the United States of America. Not Al Gore, not Bill Clinton. Not even the guy down the street, but George W. Bush. Please, don't call him Bush Jr. because his name is not the same as his father. He is not a puppet of his father, otherwise we'd probably be marching to war right now. Fmr. President Bush is livid, as are many, many other Americans.

We don't have to like the President. We don't have to dislike him either. We do have to respect him. As the President of the United States of America, Mr. Bush has alot of pressures that many of us can not comprehend, let alone imagine. We should respect his efforts to work with Congress to steer a reasonably safe path for the United States.

Now I have noticed that many of the people with an argument against my current President are Canadian. I have one question for you, when was the last time that the United States told you who you should have as Prime Minister?

Yes, the United States plays a major role in the international scene. We, as a nation, carry a good deal of responcibility as a result of this. As a nation, however, we are responcible to ourselves in how we govern ourselves. We are responcible to ourselves in the people *we* choose to govern us. As a citizen of the United States, I am offended that another nation would have the audacity to tell us how to govern ourselves.

The United States is a soverign nation. We are not a part of a larger body of any sort. It is by treaties and alliances that we are tied to other nations. Those treaties and alliances can easily be broken and the United States will remain. We can be terrorized and we will remain. Do not presume to know how we should be governed, or what our needs as a nation are.

With that said, I will now return to the sidelines and watch the debate.

Earth Walker
September 16th, 2001, 12:44 AM
quote:

I have one question for you, when was the last time that the United States told you who you should have as Prime Minister?

When U.S. Corporations & the U.S. Government spent millions
to promote Brian Mulroney as leader of the Progressive Conservative Party,to be their puppet, to get Canada to sign GATT, NAFTA, WTO.
They worked to get rid of Joe Clark, who was opposed to NAFTA,
etc.
They also used middle men from Europe. and this was exposed
later, on W5.
Canadian Corporations are just as guilty, but it was the U.S.
pulling the strings.

Their attitude: Okay, we got found out...but so what? We got
what we wanted...and public opinion is irrelevant anyway.

Tigerwallah
September 16th, 2001, 08:21 AM
President Bush was doing a bang up job of destroying the envioronment before this happened. I am a fair person. I could have rallied behind the man if he has shown any wisdom in leadership. Instead, I fear, that gone unchecked, the man would turn the entire country into the Love Canal of the sixties and seventies for personal profit. Rember, he is an oil man first and a president second, or at least that is what it appears from his agenda thus far.

A terrorist attack on this country does not, can not, change my opinion of the president. Thus far, no actions have been taken in order to judge him by in this situation. And, believe me, when that does happen it will be Colin Powell running the show, not Shrubby.

Make no mistake about it, he is planning a war. He has said so. In this microwave age of instant gratification we all expect that it should have happened on Wednesday last week. A war has to be planned, though. We are busy preparing for it. The Gulf War was a year in the planning. Bases need to be set up close to the invasion site, treaties need to be signed, supplies need to be moved, the military needs to strategize, and troops need to be mobilized. All of this takes time. Do not kid yourself into thinking Shrub is a kinder gentler Bush. They are cut from the same cloth.

I have sympathy for the job that lies ahead for Bush. One catastrophic event does not immediately make him a good president, however. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around him hunting threatened, young lions in cages. For me, that has shown me clearly what kind of man he is, and I have no respect for that man.

Xois
September 16th, 2001, 08:56 AM
Tiger

WORD!

Tigerwallah
September 16th, 2001, 09:14 AM
;)

Myst
September 16th, 2001, 10:20 AM
btw, the topic of the thread is not "why is Bush an incompetent president", or "how has the US screwed Canada over" but "'Acts of War,' president declares.". Good to know that in the light of thousands of death and carnage as well as a high possibility of world war, we can still make the time to argue over whether Bush knows his head from his @$$ instead of uniting and sharing information about this war that has started.

Gee I'm glad we're not making it even harder for a man who got what, 51% of the vote (allegedly) to pull the U.S., hell, the world, back together and find the answer to what happened. As Pagans I think we'd be doing a much better thing by sending thoughts and energy to him that he find the right answers and that his country support him in executing those best answers, instead of STILL sitting here bickering about whether he was truly elected or not.

Then again, what do I know. :)

Lilu
September 16th, 2001, 10:38 AM
I agree Willow.

And PEOPLE if you spent HALF AS MUCH time as you doing b***hing and moaning about Bush into sending healing energy and loving thoughts to the people who are suffering right now, the world would probably be a much better place. I for one am sick to death of hearing about how much people hate Bush (granted, I don't agree with his policies either, but do you see me b**ching and moaning EVERY DAY about it?!?!). GET OVER IT! He's here to stay for the next 4 years, and that's all there is to it. There are much more worthwhile things to direct our energies toward.

Lilu

Swanspirit
September 16th, 2001, 12:56 PM
This is a fair discussion , the kind that brings out pertinent knowledge... and expresses real feelings ..... and I dont think someone telling everyone to essentially just shut up is appropriate , or sensitive...... therapists are RECOMMENDING talking as a way to get out frustrations . The implication that the people in this discussion are not sending healing is completely unfair as well.... and doesnt help either .......some have given blood and I see where you hold yourself as some kind of "example" of non bitching .....
I have no response to that except , excuse me, but do you have anything constructive to offer to this discussion besides taking some kind of holier than thou moral stance?? It certainly isnt very "healing" to the people in this thread.
I am behind MY PRESIDENT as an American 100% in this crisis BUT I do not give him carte blanche to do what ever he likes . and CONGRESS didnt either , in the bil they drafted to empower him they gave him nowhere near the authority that was handed to LBJ for Vietnam..... and I for one am grateful for that.
I dont trust him completely ........ and I am glad that he has good advisors.....this is going to be a long haul and many carefully thought out decisions will need to be made .
Afghanistan doesnt have nuclear capability , but PAKISTAN DOES and their current government is fragile ........ and supporting the United States is not a popular stance in Pakistan ......... if we send soldiers over there we would spend as much time protecting our soldiers as we would fighting Afghanistan .
There are 1500 miles of Pakistan ----Afghan border, mountainous passes and those terrorist groups are NOMADS constantly on the move......and they have been using those passes for thousands of years......
So do I trust GEORGE BUSH to handle this entire situation .......no , and I need commentary to keep me appraised of the situation......., and my candles are burning are on my alters my money is sent and I will be giving blood as well............
so please dont tell me to stop what you call bitching and moaning, it IS MY COUNRTY !!!!!!!!!!!! AND AS FAR AS I CAN SEE ...... STILL A FREE COUNRTY ........
Love and Light
Swannie

Myst
September 16th, 2001, 01:08 PM
Excuse me? I don't see anywhere in those two posts the words "shut up". Just personal responses to personal responses, and ALL OF THEM are equally valid and allowed here at MW and in this "free country". Nowhere in there did Lilu or myself force others to shut up, but shared our responses to what was said. Whether you think any are holier then thou or not we are ALL free to share our responses.

Swanspirit
September 16th, 2001, 01:32 PM
I think that if we had more confidence in Bush , we wouldnt be having this discussion in the first place........I have very serious reservations about decisions being made down the road and anyone "not questioning" anyones course of action .
I deeply wish I had more confidence in him as a president..... and I think he is copmpletely correct in seeing the attack as an act of War , as much as I dont like him , I am seeing some of what he is doing in a new light .
Someone said that he is doing "what any president would" but I disagree, and I give him credit personally for what he has done thus far, but in my estimation he BEARS WATCHING, and he needs to hear from the American people what they think of what he is doing . We dont give any president that much power even in WAR ......
which I am totally saddened to admit that this is .......... and I wish with all my heart that it wasnt.
Love and Light
Swannie
ps....
And when someone says "GET OVER IT " they are in essence trying to control someone elses feelings ...and saying what to think ,what to say ,and how to act, and essentially saying SHUT UP and acting holier than thou ......IMHO

Xois
September 16th, 2001, 02:23 PM
And PEOPLE if you spent HALF AS MUCH time as you doing b***hing and moaning about Bush into sending healing energy and loving thoughts to the people who are suffering right now, the world would probably be a much better place.

No it would be the same place!

I will NOT blindly rally behind Bush SIMPLY becuase he is president! NO NOT EVER!

Because I truly believe that I will make the world a better place by working to REPLACE him in the next election with someone who cares about somthing other than his God and his money! That is what is going to make the world a better place...not falling in lockstep!

I will say again, I am very sad and I stand behind america...BUT I will not blindly fall in line becuase of what has happened.

I will continue to voice my disgust over his policies and his shadey election...

Just becuase our courntry is in greif, doesn't mean I have to forget how to think for myself!

The man is an idiot when it comes to his policies! This does not change in the face of a tragedy!

Cheers
Xois

Myst
September 16th, 2001, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Xois
Because I truly believe that I will make the world a better place by working to REPLACE him in the next election with someone who cares about somthing other than his God and his money! That is what is going to make the world a better place...not falling in lockstep!

Maybe working to replace him would work better when the election actually comes up, while working to help him find answers would work better when answers need to be found - not just for the thousands who died, but for the billions who could be next.

No one suggests you should follow him blindly, but I think there are more constructive things to do right now. Have you sent positive energy that the best answers will come to him? That his reactions will be with careful consideration, and that they'll reach the most effective ends? If you continue to bash him and hate him right now it won't help these problems be solved. If you're so damn certain he'll screw up then all you're doing is sending energy to make him screw up. As Pagans we know our thoughts become reality. If you ask that the answers be clear to him he might find the better answers and make better choices.

If you want him out of office concentrate on that when the next election comes up. Right now it's doing a lot more harm then good. Try to think of the greater good at this time. There is a time and place for everything. Look beyond your feelings on his policies, because at this time they mean little compared to solving this war before our Mother Earth is destroyed.

Swanspirit
September 16th, 2001, 03:32 PM
that someones feelings ever mean little
as quoted here
"Look beyond your feelings on his policies,
because at this time they mean little compared to solving this war
before our Mother Earth is destroyed."
Everyones feelings are part of their own sacred process, and infinitely valuable. If we take that away there is nothing left to defend.....
It is the actions based on feelings that must be taken into account...and that we are responsible for ........
And if someone anyone needs to express doubts about the president then that is their right ........
I agree that we cannot follow blindly and I want my feelings regarding Bush right there for me to remember when I am being impelled along in waves of patriotism, because those feelings might help save this Mother Earth as well......... because he may not have that priority..... he didnt before....
I know this is incredible optimism right now ,,,, BUT I am hoping that one of the long term outcomes of this military action is a complete focus on using alternative fuel sources , and I would like to continue to keep that thought ,
no matter what the president does, or no matter how many people say "get over it " about whatever THEY THINK I SHOULD BE GETTING OVER or what ever else someone tells me to do , think ,or say.
I dont think any of us are "getting over it" anytime soon
Love and light
Swannie

Myst
September 16th, 2001, 03:40 PM
This isn't a question of your feelings, mine, or if any of them are valid.

It isn't about who can tell who what to think.

It's not about rules, beliefs, or principles.

It's about the possibility that our world could erupt tomorrow and we could all die, and you can either spend all day arguing whether you can have your beliefs or you can work towards peace.

It's about looking beyond your own personal needs and rights and working towards the greater good. If you think obsessing over yourself, your right to having feelings, and your right to hate is more important, that's your prerogative. Spend the rest of the day arguing over whether someone said you should shut up or not, go ahead. I just hope I won't get to thank you in the Summerlands for it any time soon.

We are individuals with our beliefs, but most of all we are passengers on Earth, and I think we should look beyond ourselves and our right to having feelings to Her safety. Because if we don't, we might very well lose our right to having feelings as well as to living. An argument over whether someone told someone to shut up will have very little meaning if we're all dead.

If the hate continues then we won't be around to dispute his policies or get him out of office. There is a greater need right now - greater then me or anyone else out there.

If you've taken this as a heartfelt request, not a demand or a rule or an argument that you shouldn't have feelings, then you're on the right track. If you can't see beyond yourself and your rights to see *that*, then Goddess help us.

Swanspirit
September 16th, 2001, 03:54 PM
as obsessing or arguing , when I am freely expressing my own feelings ; is really your own personal issue, and I would hope you read the healing and restoration thread I started ...... if you think this is all I have to do, or say on the matter. This is large multidimensional issue , and much more than can be expressed in this little thread to hope that I meet or not meet anyone in summerland over .
Love and light
Swannie
and NO WHERE did I imply the right to hate ........ that belongs to you .... and you alone

Myst
September 16th, 2001, 03:55 PM
Yup, thought so. Now looking forward to seeing other comments and ideas. :)

Swanspirit
September 16th, 2001, 04:05 PM
I hope you find some relief because I think you are seeing what you want to see and believeing what yuo want to believe and not reading what I have written at all
because I stand my ground and wont be told what to think you translate that as hating I am sorry for you ......but I think it is TOTALLY out of line......to put hate ( YOUR WORD not mine) on someone ........ for simply answering a post .
Love and light
Swannie

Dellit Tandannon
September 16th, 2001, 04:10 PM
Topic: "Acts of War," president declares.

guess what?!?! it was an act of war! i don't see how anyone could not possibly see it as that. my country was attacked and a multitude of innocent people were killed. that is asking for war!

Myst
September 16th, 2001, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Dellit Tandannon
Topic: "Acts of War," president declares.

guess what?!?! it was an act of war! i don't see how anyone could not possibly see it as that. my country was attacked and a multitude of innocent people were killed. that is asking for war!

Thanks for bringing it right back to topic, Dellit. I think it's not so much asking for war as declaring it! But I agree totally with you.

"Why, no, George, we were just having kamikazi practice."

Xois
September 16th, 2001, 05:34 PM
Try to think of the greater good at this time

LOL, I am! :D

We all have a different process and a different way to greive...

I will rally behind our troops, I will rally behind ccongress and the senate...but I REFUSE to roll over an say..."Thanks George, may I have another"

What is wrong with that?

Am I less of an American because of it...maybe to you...and thats fine...At least I haven't lost the ability to see beyond the present greif and stress! To forget that he as pulled out of ever international treaty, stopped funding birth control clinics abroad that councle abortion, is a complete religious fundamentalists, thinks I don't practice a "real religion" that deserves protection, shall I go on? Or doesn't it matter just because our nation has had a tradgy...what if there was a massive hurrican, and thousands died...should I forget about his policies then to?

:)

I want no fight...I have no quarall with anyone on this board (except, Maybe EP *wink*, Just kidding!)

I reject (with all due respect) you advice on what will make the world a better place, and what the "greater good" is.

Thats all...lets not start world war III, here on this board!

(trying to stay OT :) )

It is possible that the war being planned isn't moral or ethical etiher...

American's have a nasty habit of believing that our way is the right way...that everyone, once given a taste, would opt for our way of life and our moral ethic...

Maybe that is what the war is about...maybe the world is rejecting our reality of the social order...and that is why this is so upsetting (the carnage aside, for the moment)...

How can I know...I have done lots of spell work and shrine work for the past several days...Sending clarity to our leaders so that they make a good strong decision--and asking for my own clarity...

And I have mediatted on how I should feel...and these are the conclusions I have come too

As for working
when the election actually comes up , It has! There have already been several testing the water in Iowa...make no mistake, the elcetion has already begun

Also, watch how Bush will use THIS horrible tradgey in that election...

I am thining of the greater good...

Cheers
Xois

Semele
September 16th, 2001, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Mystique


If Dubya starts a war, it won't just be soldiers being killed.
Just like every other war, it is the non-combatant civilans
who get it the worst...women, children and men.
I am not saying that bin Laden shouldn't be punished, by all
means he should...but starting a war is not the way to do it;
because that would only further inflame Islamists, and escalate
the war, more acts of "retaliation", etc.....and yes, my feelings
would be the same if it had been Canada instead of the U.S.

Actually whoever did this started the war by killing thousands of noncombatant citizens in the first place. I don't like the idea of war either Mystique, but I have a sinking feeling it is the only alternative. These people who did this are not concerned with life as a prescious commodity, either ours or theirs. If Bin laden was taken into custody, he would likely have more power there than he has now. He has tons of followers who will absolutely avenge his capture or death. It is not as simple as taking one person. this is a whole group of terrorists from all over the world.

Semele
September 16th, 2001, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Emerald Sky
I agree with what you said. I, too, have wondered about the possibility that this could've been done by a fellow-American. <<shudder>>

This is really a difficult decision to make - as to retaliate or not. (Just glad the decision isn't mine to make.) Many good points have been made on both sides of the debate.

Yes, we are somewhat "forced" to retaliate in some way to show the world and other terrorist that the US does not and will not tolerate any form of terrorism. As others have said, you can't just sit by and let someone slap you in the face over and over and do nothing about it... that is being a passive doormat. I think the whole world is enraged and disgusted by what has happened. I think we have many allies behind us, supporting our decision to retaliate.

However, I for one, don't want to see anymore violence, sorrow or bloodshed. Am I the only one who doesn't seek revenge? I know it's not a very popular opinion, and no, I don't expect the US to ignore what has happened, but it's who I am - I don't believe in revenge. I don't think it puts closure on the situation. I don't think it makes anyone truly feel better. It doesn't undo the carnage and desolation. It doesn't bring back the dead. I just think it is a waste of energy and lives. (My opinion - you can disagree if you wish.)

Yes, the people responsible need to be stopped from doing this again. Yes, they even need to be punished, but punished WHY? Because we're angry and want to see the b@st@rd suffer? IMO, that's the wrong reason... that's revenge, and as I stated above, I don't think any good comes from revenge.

Maybe I'm just too much of a fluffy-bunny (I admit it), but I know that decisions made out of anger and emotion are usually not wise decisions. Most of the world is angry and emotional right now. Let's just pray to our gods that they give the president and those who help him make decisions, strength and wisdom to do what will resolve this mess in the most peaceful manner.

Nope Emerald you are not the only one. I feel the same way you do about revenge...on any and all levels.

Swanspirit
September 16th, 2001, 06:21 PM
"if Bin laden was taken
into custody, he would likely have more power there than he has
now. He has tons of followers who will absolutely avenge his
capture or death. It is not as simple as taking one person. this is a
whole group of terrorists from all over the world."

I said this in another thread..... he is as dangerous in prison or possibly even more dangerous because his followers would be seeking his release........taking hostages ...... as was done in the Iranian Embassy siege ,twenty years ago .... which lasted 444 days ....... we HAVE to think AHEAD and of the consequences of what we do in any military acts of reprisal , whether we call them war or not.
I think the word "WAR" is a catchall for fearladen doomsday ideas, and that it frightens everyone .....myself included.
I think we have tried many times over and for many years to deal with terrorism and this is the absolute worst event we have ever had to deal with . I think the terrorists themselves have given us no choice but to do what we can, but we have to continue to act with thought and respect for the individual.
I have no quarrel with anyone either but I have my own opinions as well as anyone else , and I have the right to express them fully and freely ...
I also respect anyones opinion of what is the greater good but I reserve the right to have my own .
Love and light
Swannie

Myst
September 16th, 2001, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Xois

Am I less of an American because of it...maybe to you...and thats fine...
...
I reject (with all due respect) you advice on what will make the world a better place, and what the "greater good" is.
...
How can I know...I have done lots of spell work and shrine work for the past several days...Sending clarity to our leaders so that they make a good strong decision--and asking for my own clarity...


I dunno, I'm not an American, so it's not about being an American or what it has to do with the election for me. I don't give a darn how he uses it in the next election, being as policies there are half the reason I never plan to move there. That's why I live in Canada. You might consider moving here too if you hate him that much :)

My point again was not to follow him blindly or stop fighting against his policies, just that we should send clarity and positive energy instead of just complaining, as I see you've done already. My greater good isn't Bush, it's working towards reaching clarity and peace for the world. See? You've already taken my advice and worked towards that. Sheesh. :rolleyes: :D

Semele and Emerald - if the decisions were made out of anger without careful thought and consideration then they would've been made already - as in Afghanistan would've gotten blown off the earth Tuesday afternoon. It's been almost a week now, so I'm sure we can hope for a better answer. I disagree on the revenge thing tho, but then again, after you spend time with Lilith, Hecate, the Morrigan, et cetera you see it differently I imagine (or at least I do) :)

Tigerwallah
September 16th, 2001, 10:36 PM
What I was saying was simply that I was unhappy with the job the man was doing on Monday. Why would that change after he shed a tear for the terror of Tuesday? He has not changed. Only our need to cling to a leader has. I choose Powell. I like that Bronx boy. He's real, and he's got game.

Yes, I agree that imprisioning bin Laden would be a mistake. His entire operation needs to be taken down. We need to take down every last member of his army, every last one of those who give him financial aid, or get financial aid from him. We need to decimate his entire minion, and strike fear in the hearts of potential terrorists everywhere, and the governments who would support them.

I heard someone say on a radio show. " Ever heard of a Japanese terrorist?" Perhaps what we did to Japan was extream, but we have not had reason to be affraid of Japan since.

As Pagans we also know that there is a light and dark side to everything. Now is the dark time. We must embrace the dark as we embrace the light. We accept goddesses such as Kali and the Morrigan. Therefor, we accept a need for those goddesses. We accept gods such as Vishnu, Thor, and Saturn. Therefor, we accept that there is a place for these gods.

The world is not a perfect one. Our neighbor is not always kind. Sometimes we need to stand up for ourselves and use a show of might to ensure future peace. In this instance, we can no longer turn the other cheek. Bin Laden was responsible for thousands of deaths before this latest attack. Do we wait for the body count to rise? Or do we raise our voices in the cry of battle?

BrightStar
September 17th, 2001, 04:31 AM
Hi,
I've been lighting candles,hangin' at my altar a lot the last few days.Sending positive energy to our leaders,whether I like them or not,so they make good decisions.Asking the Goddess for justice.Sending healing energy out for all the hurt people,here and abroad.To the person in Afghanistan or a Palestinian camp,to firefighters as well as Israel.It's all so interconnected,and a bit overwhelming.
An Act of War?Most certainly.I just wish I could be sure who committed it.As far as I know,no one has said "I did it".No one has told us that they did it because of a certain policy of our government.
It's so rough not being sure who done it.Who do we attack?I'd love to see someone's head on a pike paraded around our national squares.But I want the right head,or heads.
And no,just because we're bombed doesn't make the President a Saint.He's still the same guy I disliked last week.I'll keep fighting all his policies I dislike.Here,in OK,I was always being told to respect the office,even if I hate the man,during the Reagan and Bush 1 years.But I never heard the argument for Carter or Clinton.Does it depend on his party?I will criticize this guy when I see a screw up.
From what I understand about bin Laden(if he did it) and his organization is it's not a single headed thing.People come from all different Muslim nations.We could bomb afghanistan back to the stone age,but they're already there.The Russians and 22 years of civil war took care of that.He's a Saudi,and some Saudis give these groups lots of money.Do we bomb the Saudis?A lot of members come from Yemen,invade them too?Lots of Palestinians in terrorist groups,do we annihilate the Palestinians?(BTW,I've heard the footage of Palestinians celebrating was old footage from '91,anyone else heard this?)
Pakistan leaders are going to have such a hard time if we send troops there.Most of their people won't want us there,and they may topple the current government.
Most of the Muslim nations have half of their population under age 15.A huge group in each Arab country sees this guy and other groups like his as heroic.So do we just take out all Muslim countries?They're beating up Arab students in Norman,Oklahoma.Do we join in?
If we screw up,killing innocent civilians,such as the Airbus accident during the Iraq war,we're giving the terrorists ammo.
How do we fight this war?
We need to be very careful.Do this right,and not create a World War.A Christian v Muslim world crusade.Sure someone declared war on the US,but it's hard to actually know who it was.Is it one terrorist/freedom fighter group,or many?
As you see,I have lots of questions,and not enough answers right now.I'm sure others feel the same here,or at least I think some of us do.
Peace and Love
BrightStar

Xois
September 17th, 2001, 06:23 AM
BrightStar

Word!

Myst
September 17th, 2001, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by Xois
BrightStar

Word!

Ditto.

Tigerwallah
September 17th, 2001, 08:08 AM
:thumbsup:

Tigerwallah
September 17th, 2001, 08:27 AM
is a clear cut enemy. We asked them after the bombing of the U.S. embasies in Tanzania and Kenya (both bombed within hours of eachother as was the WTC and Pentagon) to hand over bin Laden. They refused. We asked them to hand him over after the bombing of the USS Cole a year ago. They did not. We told them that they would have to contend with us if he was responsible for any more attacks on American citizens. We all know that to be taken seriously there has to be follow through. The Taliban even expects it. They are fleeing Kabul.

For the last two days, the President, Vice President and Colin Powell have been saying in politico speak that they know that bin Laden is responsible. He won't admit to it now because he told us he was going to do it. It's his MO. He made a video tape a few months ago saying that something like this was going to occur on US soil. He always sends out a video to advertise his up coming assaults, and he doesn't confess later. I saw a special on CNN about it two days ago. A relative of bin Laden was detained and then arrested on Thursday in Kennedy airport. He was carrying a falsified pilot's license. Coincidence? I don't really believe in coincedence. I also doubt it was coincidence that bin Laden owned stock in a reinsurance company that had a policy on one of the insurance co.s of the WTC, and that he traded those stocks mere weeks ago. He made a fortune to finance his next projects.

The enemy we don't know here are his terrorist groups stationed around the world, even here in the U.S., and the countries, besides Afghanastan, who support and finance him.

Myst
September 17th, 2001, 08:29 AM
Mm hm, point? Since you're certain they did it, what do you propose be done?

Tigerwallah
September 17th, 2001, 08:48 AM
We are making plans right now to attack Afghanastan. My point is that it is justified. This is a unique war. Not only miliary, but local law enforcement and intelligence is neccessary to fight it. On one hand it will be war on the countries whose gov'ts have aided bin Laden. On the other hand it will be man-hunts and the legal system for those terrorists who are covertly living in countries who do not support them.

What needs to be done? What will be done.

Myst
September 17th, 2001, 09:03 AM
Hm, I was half watching some news channel a few minutes ago wherein I *heard* that the Taliban had been given something like 72 hours to hand bin Laden over (not sure if I heard right and I don't feel like finding it online, so if I'm wrong I'm wrong :)).... and I know some of the people of Afghanistan have left or have been leaving since last week... so maybe we can hope the people involved will be handed over - not sure if anyone else is involved who isn't already dead... hard to tell isn't it, especially since we're not politicians, etc.

I think there's a need for judicious deities in the matter anyway...

Tigerwallah
September 17th, 2001, 09:26 AM
They gave them the ultimatum yesterday, but have little hope of compliance. Apparantly, they've given them this ultimatum in the past, but never followed up.

Myst
September 17th, 2001, 09:31 AM
In that case, I agree with you. We can only hope they hand him over, and if not...

Dellit Tandannon
September 17th, 2001, 05:18 PM
...... BANG BANG BANG BANG
*BOOM*

BrightStar
September 18th, 2001, 01:06 AM
Hi,
I mentioned in an earlier post that there was a rumor that the footage of Palestinians dancing in the street was old footage.It WAS just a rumor.The footage is the real deal.
Just in case anyone was interested:rolleyes:
Peace and Love
BrightStar

Myst
September 18th, 2001, 08:16 AM
Declared but not formally - the final decision is up to a council who are set to meet later this week - http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010918/ts/attack_afghan_holywar_dc_3.html

RavenSunshine
September 18th, 2001, 09:44 AM
There are so many thoughts that I want to comment on....

Does anyone else want to know where those explosions in Afghanistan came from..?....

It was said that an anti-taliban group did the bombings in Kabul.

Conspirasy Theories......I am not going to even comment on this one.

America at War..... America has seen more terrorist acts on itself or symbols in the last 5 years than at any other time. We have not retailitated even though many American have already been killed. We waited. Now that this recent tragedy has occured , Americans are mad not only has our military or government been hit, innocents have been lost. Not only American but 64 other countries has lost lives in the attack.

Bush and his advisor are right and just is waiting to attack. Yes we have declared war... but it will not be a traditional war. It will not even be another Gulf War. It will have similarities of each. We will send in our military and we will bomb. We have given warnings to the "innocents" of the Middle East. We will not attack without warning like the terrorist. We will send our troops in to seek out terrorist cells and military personalle will be lost. But we will also block the terrorist economically. The US has the backing of many many other nations. We have every right to raid Bin Ladens banks and stocks. Terrorist can not work without money. Mercenaries do not work for a cause but for money. Guns can not be bought without money.

Yes more lives will be lost by the time this is over but we can not sit and wait for it to happen again. As Americans, we have and will continue to loss our given "rights" due to the act of war by these terrorism. We are no longer free to travel without restrictions. This will continue to happen until we show that we will not stand for these actions.

On a more personal note...last year my husband decided to leave the US Army for several reasons...in May he decided that he wanted to go back into the military. Since then we have been waiting for word about going into the Airforce. Now, his resolve to back into the military has changed from one of personal intentions for our family to one of our nation. I am proud of him and will support him and others in the US military for they will give up their lives for Our Nation.

I feel a great loss for ALL who are affected by the happenings of last Tuesday and I will be forever changed by them also. But we must show these terrorists that they have not won...

My prayers and engery goes out to the President and his Adivors for the job ahead of them, for the families affected by this recent tragedy, and for those who will be loss in the future.

We are united, not just the UNITED States but an United World....

Many Blessings......

Myst
September 18th, 2001, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by RavenSunshine
Does anyone else want to know where those explosions in Afghanistan came from..?....


Actually it's also been noted that there's a civil war within Afghanistan (ie. north vs south) and while one end was celebrating the goings on in the U.S. the other end decided to attack them.

I haven't verified this, but that's what I was told by a friend of mine who keeps eye on such things.

Xois
September 18th, 2001, 10:35 AM
I watched the attack on CNN and they did infact, say it was part of the internal civil war..
although nothing was mentioned about celebrations

RavenSunshine
September 18th, 2001, 12:26 PM
When I commented on the bombings in Afghanistan I was from others comments early on in the thread.

As with most nations in the area, there is internal striff. Civil war is a common site. The Taliban who are the ruling party only took over 5-6 years ago.... there are other factions just as militant as the Taliban but they are not in power.

Earth Walker
September 19th, 2001, 06:59 PM
With everything that has happened, and is happening, I am
reminded of the song, "Wooden Ships".....from the album:
Crosby,Stills&Nash

Jefferson Airplane did a cover of the song, it's on their album:
Volunteers.

How prophetic....how true....:(

Earth Walker
September 19th, 2001, 09:08 PM
The most shocking realization about the attacks is that most
Americans don't even realize why they were targeted for such
a horrific tragedy.
They seem to be readily eating up the spin their government is
feeding them, that this was an attack on freedom and democracy.
But, whatever Middle Eastern interests have been behind this
massacre, the retaliation was most likely a reply to the same kind
of heinous attacks Americans have been carrying out on Arabs
for decades.
Americans are never shown the incessant carnage on Arab
families by U.S. missiles fired by Israeli batteries, as they are
when Israelis are attacked.
They are never told of the inhumane grip that U.S. foreign policy
has on people who want only to improve the Arabs' local control
of their land and resources.
If the Americans truly want to prevent further bloodshed on their
soil, they must look at their own actions around the world,
swallow their pride, silence their guns and begin to act with a
clear conscience in ALL their foreign affairs.
It is distressing to see so many otherwise respected writers and
commentators, most of them too old to fight, turning overnight
into war mongers, advocating retaliation, bombing or invasion,
thumping their chest and blowing smoke.
No doubt the perpetrators of this tragedy should be hunted down
and brought to justice, but it should be remembered that the
safety of Canada rests largely on its being perceived as an
independent force for peace, rather than a servant of the U.S.
It is woth noting that, over the last 50 years, all the great
military powers, (the U.S., the Soviet Union, France, Great Britain),
have utterly failed to impose their will on underdeveloped
countries by conventional military means (think of Algeria,
Vietnam, Cuba, Colombia, Guatemala, etc., the Gulf War,
Afghanistan, Chechnya).
It is unfortunate that fighting the root causes of terrorism, such
as ignorance, poverty and oppression is not as exciting as
blowing things/people up.

Daniel
September 20th, 2001, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by Mystique

Americans are never shown the incessant carnage on Arab
families by U.S. missiles fired by Israeli batteries, as they are
when Israelis are attacked.
Are the Palestinians any less responsible for their forigen policy than we are for ours? Why is it that you blame the carnage on the firing of U.S.-made missiles, rather than on the Palestinian campaign of sniper fire and repeated suicide bomber attacks on innocent Israeli civilians?


They are never told of the inhumane grip that U.S. foreign policy has on people who want only to improve the Arabs' local control of their land and resources.This is a little unclear to me. I need you to be a little more specific about what you're talking about.


If the Americans truly want to prevent further bloodshed on their soil, they must look at their own actions around the world, swallow their pride, silence their guns and begin to act with a clear conscience in ALL their foreign affairs.Not a single one of the Americans killed in last week's terrorist attack has any say in America's forigen policy, or her military comittments across the globe. None of the Americans affected by that act of mass-murder can do anything more than wail in pain, recover, and move on with their relatively average existances.

Perhaps, rather than telling America what it must do, you should consider that none of those killed could have done a single thing to change the governmental policies that you claim got them killed in the first place.


It is distressing to see so many otherwise respected writers and commentators, most of them too old to fight, turning overnight into war mongers, advocating retaliation, bombing or invasion, thumping their chest and blowing smoke.That's what happens when your beloved homeland is attacked, your innocent breathren executed with extreme prejudice. You should try it some time, and then see if you have the urge to say that again.


No doubt the perpetrators of this tragedy should be hunted down and brought to justice, but it should be remembered that the safety of Canada rests largely on its being perceived as an independent force for peace, rather than a servant of the U.S.I don't recall a single time when Canada was referred to as anything approaching a servent to the United States. In fact, I don't really remember Canada being mentioned in the wire reports I've heard over the radio, although they may have recieved some momentary mention for a show of support or some such thing.

Besides, I really hate to tell you this, but Canada's not safe. As far as the Islamic Fundamentalists are concerned, anybody who isn't an enemy of the Great Satan is his ally. The only way you're going to avoid being showered with Arabian C4 is if your government declares war on America, at which point being 'an independant force for peace' will be the least of Canada's troubles.


It is woth noting that, over the last 50 years, all the great
military powers, (the U.S., the Soviet Union, France, Great Britain),
have utterly failed to impose their will on underdeveloped
countries by conventional military means (think of Algeria,
Vietnam, Cuba, Colombia, Guatemala, etc., the Gulf War,
Afghanistan, Chechnya).We aren't going to force our will on Afghanistan. We're just going to blow the bastards who attacked our brethren to kingdom come. If, in the process, they come around to our point of view, so much the better.


It is unfortunate that fighting the root causes of terrorism, such as ignorance, poverty and oppression is not as exciting as blowing things/people up.Yes, well. Lybia's government seemed to enjoy sponsoring terrorist organizations until Ronald Regan had them bombed back into the stone age. They changed their minds. If the governments harboring our enemies don't, then they will be destroyed, and the terrorists will have nobody to buy their explosives.

Sounds like an effective strike against the root source of terrorism's power to me.

Tigerwallah
September 20th, 2001, 08:35 AM
Yes, our foreign policy might seem opressive to some, but to other's it is much needed financial support and aid.

American weapons are not exclusively owned by Israel. In fact, we have been cyclically giving weapons and aid out all over the Middle East. We did it with Iran and Iraq. Yes, we really screwed that one up. My boss tells a story of how they were happy (as happy as one can be with a head of state) with the Shah, and that Carter deposed the Shah, and put the Iatolah Khomeni in power. When this happened, Iranians lost all of their freedoms, and were under strict religious rule once again. The hardest hit were the women who were gaining an identity under the Shah.

When, in protest, young Iranian students took Americans hostage in the late 70's, we were there giving weapons to Iraq. Reagan made a deal with Iran, the hostages were let go, and boom, we were now giving Iran weapons to battle Iraq.

The major problem with our foreign policy is inconsistancy. It changes with every president. I have always believed that we should just keep our noses out of it, but that might leave us more vulnerable. Fact remains that we are the Super Power. There will always be those who love us, and those who don't.

I can not give any legitamacy to the actions of the terrorists. I am an American, and as such, it is my duty, my deep held belief to defend my country and myself. Growing up, the NY skyline was always a part of my life. My father worked on the electrical plans for the WTC. I had Christmas parties at Windows on the World, the famous WTC restaurant. I was born close to the site where the WTC would later be built. That was my home that was attacked. I will always defend my home.

Xois
September 20th, 2001, 08:51 AM
I will always defend my home

that is exactally what the Palistinians are saying!




Palestinian campaign of sniper fire and repeated suicide bomber attacks on innocent Israeli civilians?

According to international law, Isreal is an occupying force, that makes things different

Under international law, they have a moral right to resist the occupation

Illuminatus
September 20th, 2001, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Xois
According to international law, Isreal is an occupying force, that makes things different

Under international law, they have a moral right to resist the occupation

Are you sure about that?

Israel is recognized by most nations (except a few arab holdouts), and I'm pretty sure they enjoy UN representation. Internationally, Israel has been sovereign since it's inception fiftysome years back, not an occupation.

- Ill

Xois
September 20th, 2001, 11:03 AM
yes according to International law (including the UN) any land taken during a war MUST be given back after that war is done

which is not to say that the world has made Isreal an exception...

RavenSunshine
September 20th, 2001, 11:23 AM
Daniel you are right on the target......

Xois.... I would like to see which set of "international Laws" you are reading. Israel has been "Israel" for thousands and thousands of years just under different names. Actually the Palestinines were a migrant people so they settled into the area after the "jews" do. But that is not the point.....Everyone has taken land for the original inhabitants....Even Canada!

Illuminatus
September 20th, 2001, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Xois
yes according to International law (including the UN) any land taken during a war MUST be given back after that war is done

which is not to say that the world has made Isreal an exception...

WTF? What Israel are YOU talking about? The one that captured most of the Siani penninsula back in 1967 when Egypt tried to invade them, and GAVE IT ALL BACK just a few years later???? The same Israel that not even one year ago, withdrew from a buffer zone they had occupied after their war with Lebanon, only to find their northern settlements harried by hellozabah geurillis sporting rocket launchers? Israel's given back MAD LAND, YO. It doesn't appease anyone. And they don't have much left to give.

- Ill

Illuminatus
September 20th, 2001, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by RavenSunshine
Daniel you are right on the target......

Xois.... I would like to see which set of "international Laws" you are reading. Israel has been "Israel" for thousands and thousands of years just under different names. Actually the Palestinines were a migrant people so they settled into the area after the "jews" do. But that is not the point.....Everyone has taken land for the original inhabitants....Even Canada!

Ravensunshine,

WORD!!!!!

Xois
September 20th, 2001, 02:10 PM
specifically, I am talking about the settlements and east Jeresleum

RavenSunshine
September 21st, 2001, 08:32 AM
If we are talking about spiols of war..... To the winer goes the prizes!

I have never heard that the land has to be given back after the war is over..... maybe for the loser of that war.

Xois
September 21st, 2001, 12:06 PM
I will research and post the law here! :)

Tigerwallah
September 23rd, 2001, 10:34 AM
Palestine is not neccisarily part of this. Thus far, I have seen no proof to link Palestine with what happened on Sept. 11. We only see that terrorist groups that are motivated by religious extreamism were responsible for the attack.

I, mostly, side with Palestine. Yes, they have every right to defend their homeland. Fact is, that the Israelites bought the land from Palestinians. With that said, I don't believe that they had any right to declare themselves a sovereign country. It would be like Italian residents of "Little Italy" in New York declaring the region to be part of Italy because it was owned by Italians. It just doesn't jive.

Daniel
September 23rd, 2001, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Tigerwallah

With that said, I don't believe that they had any right to declare themselves a sovereign country. It would be like Italian residents of "Little Italy" in New York declaring the region to be part of Italy because it was owned by Italians. It just doesn't jive.Little Italy has every right to seceed from the Union and become part of Italy. It will, however, face a certain set of burdens before it is allowed to do so. It would have to:

1. Convince Italy to buy off the American government.
2. Assume its portion of the National Debt.
3. Establish their own governing body.
4. Protect its own borders and citizens through the efforts of their own military.

They would, additionally, be responsible for educating their own children, managing their own welfare state, maintaining their own roads, and so on. Also, since they're not self-sufficient, they'd have to work out trade agreements with their neighbors that allowed them to import food and purchase the utilities that they used to share with New York without a second thought.

They're more than welcome to seceed. They'd collapse in less than a week and beg for readmittance, but they're more than welcome to give it a try.

Funny. Seems like Israel's handled all of these issues rather nicely.

Myst
September 24th, 2001, 01:15 PM
The comments on Little Italy have put me in mind partially of Quebec in Canada. :)

Xois
September 24th, 2001, 03:43 PM
Little Italy has every right to seceed from the Union

Isn't it in the constitution that once you enter into the US, YOU CAN NOT secceed?

Tigerwallah
September 25th, 2001, 07:10 AM
Yes, it is.

RavenSunshine
September 25th, 2001, 08:00 AM
There is nothing in the US Constitution that says that a group and/or state can not secede from the union. It does say though that no new state can be formed out of one or several states already in the Union.

For more facts, see http://www.constitutionfacts.com/

Anyway, to get back to the thread... we are talking about Acts of War and not US Constitution or US Policy vs Canadian Views..

Illuminatus
September 25th, 2001, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Daniel
Little Italy has every right to seceed from the Union and become part of Italy. It will, however, face a certain set of burdens before it is allowed to do so. It would have to:

1. Convince Italy to buy off the American government.
2. Assume its portion of the National Debt.
3. Establish their own governing body.
4. Protect its own borders and citizens through the efforts of their own military.

They would, additionally, be responsible for educating their own children, managing their own welfare state, maintaining their own roads, and so on. Also, since they're not self-sufficient, they'd have to work out trade agreements with their neighbors that allowed them to import food and purchase the utilities that they used to share with New York without a second thought.

They're more than welcome to seceed. They'd collapse in less than a week and beg for readmittance, but they're more than welcome to give it a try.

Funny. Seems like Israel's handled all of these issues rather nicely.



Hee hee, well that all may be true IF Little Italy has Italy's co-operation. If it doesn't, well.... you saw what happened to states that seceeded from the Union back in 1865.

Anyway, if they make Little Italy a Reservation and not an independant nation they get all the food, welfare and money for schools they want, no cost to themselves. What a deal!

- Ill

Shy Hawk
September 26th, 2001, 09:21 AM
Hmm....methinks the conditions in a lot of reservations are not as good as all that.

Illuminatus
September 26th, 2001, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Shy Hawk
Hmm....methinks the conditions in a lot of reservations are not as good as all that.

I never said that they were!

Still the aid rolls in...

GoddessofWisdom
October 2nd, 2001, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by Mystique


If Dubya starts a war, it won't just be soldiers being killed.
Just like every other war, it is the non-combatant civilans
who get it the worst...women, children and men.
I am not saying that bin Laden shouldn't be punished, by all
means he should...but starting a war is not the way to do it;
because that would only further inflame Islamists, and escalate
the war, more acts of "retaliation", etc.....and yes, my feelings
would be the same if it had been Canada instead of the U.S.


I have a hard time seeing this situation as Bush starting the war.................I do think that flying 2 airplanes into the Twin towers, one into the Pentagon and they only know where the 4th plane was headed......is a defintite sign that bin Laden wants to start the new Jihad. The war was declared by bin Laden. Plain and simple. And guess what......according to your wonderful CNN Afgafistan military is already evacuating the women and children to neighboring Pakistan.

He IS NOT going to surrender himself and in such a mountainous region , its not like we can look around and say"oo ooo There he is !!!"

Xander67
October 2nd, 2001, 01:59 PM
he is probably well on his way to some tropical Island hideing out.. Let's see... well his uncle lives in the BOSTON METRO area, and he disowned Bin Laden long before this happened.....Um yeah uh huh, SUURRRRRE there is no connection to his uncle, after all the planes only originated from boston and Newark, makes you think.....

second, his mom comes out with this crapola that he called her and told her something was gonna happen and he had to go away...and she suposedly disowned him too, did anyone look in her basement or in her closets???

Xander

Dria El
October 2nd, 2001, 03:26 PM
Actually, from what I hear, the government moved all of his family in the States somewhere safe (I assume, I don't remember the whole of the story).

Illuminatus
October 2nd, 2001, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Dria El
Actually, from what I hear, the government moved all of his family in the States somewhere safe (I assume, I don't remember the whole of the story).

Remember what happened to the Japaneese Americans when WWII started? They all got put somewhere REAL safe.

Yvonne Belisle
October 2nd, 2001, 06:27 PM
Yup American consentration camps for thier own good and safty according to our government at the time which took thier personal belongings including houses without due process to pay for thier illegal incarseration.

Dria El
October 6th, 2001, 03:33 AM
Could be I suppose.. but that's not the impression I remember. I think it was an out of the country type of thing. But again, I'm not sure.