Is murder ever justified?

[Laisrean]

Yesterday on Oprah (I don't normally watch it, but I was channel surfing and it caught my attention) they were talking about a woman who shot her stepfather because she was abused and molested by him all her life and he abused her mother and her mother was sick and dying and he still abused her and he even started abusing/molesting the woman's daughter so she took a gun and killed him.

I personally don't feel bad about what she did and no one who knew her and her stepfather blamed her for what she did, but nonetheless she got 7 years in prison. I'm just wondering what you all think about this and if you think in certain circumstances such as this murder is justified.

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

We actually just had a similar discussion in my English class. Personally, I don't think we can ever know, because unless you're completely omniscient you can't know the entire situation and we don't have the capabilities to weigh the value of someone's life. The molestor was probably abused in his life, so is it fair to kill someone that never knew how to love or how to be selfless? (I'm not saying this is the case of course; but how are we to know is all I'm trying to get at)

[misschief]

absolutely!! this will probably lead to lots of people thinking i'm a maniac... but i don't care.....

my ex was horribly abusive. only to me verbally for a few years, which i tolerated because i was stupid... eventually it came to us physically fighting, later on it came to him hitting the kids while i was at work, eventually it came down to me in a court room charged with attempted murder. i stabbed him repeatedly and broke several of his facial bones with my foot... when he called 911 i pushed him out a second story window. at that time my son drake was one year and 13 days old, i came home from work and found drake with a fractured skull, then i got hit for inquiring. i feel that would have been a justified murder.

edit: although i didn't end up going to prison, i was prepared to do so and thought it fair and worth it because he tried... and almost did kill my children

[~SleepyWillow~]

I don't know if you can call it justified so much as maybe 'Understood' I caught that show as well and I have to say that after hearing her story I completely understood why she did what she did as well as why her family supported her through it. Is it right? No. Simply put you cannot murder someone because they hurt you and not pay the consequences. If you could we would have a world full of people killing each other ALL THE TIME. In a case of self defence where you are fighting for your life you do what you need to do...what she did was calculated and at that particular time physically unprovoked. Now that I say it it sounds so cold. I completely sympathize with her though she has been incredibly damaged and if this brings her closure then so be it. Im sure the judge was sympathetic as well...she was only sentenced to 7 years rather then life.

[Rudas Starblaze]

it sickens me at how twisted mans laws are. she killed the guy, not murderd, big difference. murder is aborting the life of your own kind with out moral or religious reasoning. that man deserved to die.

[Ahautenites]

**hugs for LadyLeo** I'm glad you did that to him, chica. He fully deserved it. And I'm glad you're not in jail for it. Is Drake okay now?

[Laisrean]

absolutely!! this will probably lead to lots of people thinking i'm a maniac... but i don't care.....

my ex was horribly abusive. only to me verbally for a few years, which i tolerated because i was stupid... eventually it came to us physically fighting, later on it came to him hitting the kids while i was at work, eventually it came down to me in a court room charged with attempted murder. i stabbed him repeatedly and broke several of his facial bones with my foot... when he called 911 i pushed him out a second story window. at that time my son drake was one year and 13 days old, i came home from work and found drake with a fractured skull, then i got hit for inquiring. i feel that would have been a justified murder.

edit: although i didn't end up going to prison, i was prepared to do so and thought it fair and worth it because he tried... and almost did kill my children

Wow. :yikes:

I don't think you are a maniac; I think you did the right thing. Is your son alright? and what happened to the *censored*?

[misschief]

oh yeah, he's fine, happy and normal now. but to be honest... if i saw my ex walking on the street today, i'd kill him with my bare hands. no questions asked. he's white trash in need of recycling.

before anyone starts thinking i'm a homicidal maniac... it's highly unlikely for me to even lay eyes on him... so simma down :D

to answer laisrean... he got one year of probation. can you believe that! he was advised by the local police, after they attempted to have my martial arts belts taken away, that he should leave town and not come back. and he did. he moved about 3 hours away from me, and won't even show for court dates. but... i'm glad he finally realizes that i am a danger to his life, and i hope he lives in fear. nothing would make me happier.

[Nighthawk]

Well, I do not advocate violence. That being said.. Lady Leo is one case, just like the first one mentioned, where 'murder' would not be the correct term. It would more be self defense.

[~SleepyWillow~]

In your case Lady I would consider that self defence as well..your son couldn't protect himself like you could protect him. A mother's instinct is strong and when her child is in dager she goes into fight mode. What happened to you and your family is terrible and I hope you never have to live through anything like that again! Props to you for being strong!!

[Laisrean]

oh yeah, he's fine, happy and normal now. but to be honest... if i saw my ex walking on the street today, i'd kill him with my bare hands. no questions asked. he's white trash in need of recycling.

before anyone starts thinking i'm a homicidal maniac... it's highly unlikely for me to even lay eyes on him... so simma down :D

to answer laisrean... he got one year of probation. can you believe that! he was advised by the local police, after they attempted to have my martial arts belts taken away, that he should leave town and not come back. and he did. he moved about 3 hours away from me, and won't even show for court dates. but... i'm glad he finally realizes that i am a danger to his life, and i hope he lives in fear. nothing would make me happier.

Well, I'm proud of you. You've done what alot of others could/would not have and that is worthy of admiration. But I have to say, as sick and twisted as this may sound, that it would probably have been better if you actually did kill him. I hate to think that he may be somewhere hurting others out there.

[misschief]

Well, I'm proud of you. You've done what alot of others could/would not have and that is worthy of admiration. But I have to say, as sick and twisted as this may sound, that it would probably have been better if you actually did kill him. I hate to think that he may be somewhere hurting others out there.right this second he is in south-eastern ohio attempting to get custody of a small child. he had a girlfriend, she died of a heroin overdose, she left behind a son.. and he is trying to get custody. thanks to the slack prosecution of him on my case, there is nothing i can do to stop it.. because they made me into the criminal instead of him. *shrug* yep.. gotta love it.

anyway.. i think my original point was... basically... no one can make the call for anyone else, there are times when murder is justified. as much as some of you would like to ignore it, there are people living in this world who really don't deserve to be here.

[Druchii]

It all depends on the situation.
But yes, at times I do believe it can be justified.

[~~Vampy's~~Boo~~]

it matters not why a person molests and abuses it does not matter what happened to them as a child if they take away another persons dignity or whatever if they have no regard and they use their past as an excuse to do unto others what was done to them its still not an excuse in my opinion if u were treated that way (molested abused whatever) then that is even more reason why u shouldnt do it to others (speaking from experience here) and if u do not have the ability to know that it is wrong well maybe u shouldnt be in society at all
and also maybe that girl or others who have taken matters into their own hands in that situation maybe they snapped we all have a breakin point should u pay for the rest of ur life no i think not
and now i must ramble i just woke up from a dream where this guy was in my mom's house and he had a shot gun and was gonna kill her and i woke up, went got my coffee sat down here and read this thread so maybe i went off a lil bit because i was just thinkin 5 mins ago that i would kill that bastard in heart beat given the opportunity
isnt that ironic :fpeek:

[Infinite Grey]

Morally yes, there is most definitely times when murder is justified. But! The law can not afford to accept any justification, murder is murder, regardless how justified. Where do you draw the line? Laws must bind everyone or they aren't laws at all.

[~SleepyWillow~]

right this second he is in south-eastern ohio attempting to get custody of a small child. he had a girlfriend, she died of a heroin overdose, she left behind a son.. and he is trying to get custody. thanks to the slack prosecution of him on my case, there is nothing i can do to stop it.. because they made me into the criminal instead of him. *shrug* yep.. gotta love it.

anyway.. i think my original point was... basically... no one can make the call for anyone else, there are times when murder is justified. as much as some of you would like to ignore it, there are people living in this world who really don't deserve to be here.

I almost agree with that. You are right nobody can make the call for anyone else but that also applies to the person being killed I think. Who decides that someone doesnt have a right to be here? And then how do you come to that decision? I'm not sure I could live with the fact that I killed someone intentionally no matter the reason.

[Feyfaerie]

right this second he is in south-eastern ohio attempting to get custody of a small child. he had a girlfriend, she died of a heroin overdose, she left behind a son.. and he is trying to get custody. thanks to the slack prosecution of him on my case, there is nothing i can do to stop it.. because they made me into the criminal instead of him. *shrug* yep.. gotta love it.

anyway.. i think my original point was... basically... no one can make the call for anyone else, there are times when murder is justified. as much as some of you would like to ignore it, there are people living in this world who really don't deserve to be here.

I myself was in a situation where, if I hadn't have gotten out, there could have easily been horrible consequences. The man was steadily becoming more abusive, and insane.I could very easily have done the exact same thing to him if he had hurt one of my kids. It was one thing for him to hurt me, but, not my kids.so, I sympathise with you. I'm so glad that your son is ok. What a horrible piece of work you had to deal with. I feel for you and hope that life brings you happiness here forth.

[Aelfoak]

In my opinion, i would love to see Paedophiles get blown away, murdering these disgusting scum is wholey justified. If the government paid me to hunt everyone of them down then i'd be glad enough to do it!

[misschief]

I'm not sure I could live with the fact that I killed someone intentionally no matter the reason.*shrug* i could.

[Kaylara]

I almost agree with that. You are right nobody can make the call for anyone else but that also applies to the person being killed I think. Who decides that someone doesnt have a right to be here? And then how do you come to that decision? I'm not sure I could live with the fact that I killed someone intentionally no matter the reason.
You go after my kids or someone in my family and I would have no problem with killing you if I had to, to protect them from harm. And no, I wouldn't feel guilty in the least about it.

[Darakash]

First of all, as many have said before me, I do not think that killing someone and murder are necessarily the same thing. In the case of what happened to lady leo and (it sounds like) this oprah guest, they did what was necessary to protect themselves/loved ones. The fact is that restraining orders are only as good as the paper they are written on most of the time and hiding doesnt always work and why the hell should a victim of such violence be the one who has to hide?

There may be Kemetics who will disagree with me, but I believe that it is TOTALLY in keeping with ma'at to kill a monster of this magnitude. A person who would fracture a child's skull is an instrument of isfet (destructive chaos) and eradicating their presence is a gift to the universe. THERE LADY LEO, now they will think I am the homicidle maniac! I would not hunt people down, but OH YEAH if this happened in my home, I would most definitely act with EXTREME prejudice to protect my own and myself. The funny think is, that before I had a child I used to think that I could probably never kill anyone even if they were harming me or a loved one....strange how that has changed!
DK

[Aidron]

Justified? Who can say.

I think murder can be performed in self-defense, and thus murder with the definition it conveys is not the most accurate term for the situation. If there is someone who is dealing out borderline fatal harm I would have no hesistation about destroying them to protect myself and those I care about.

If someone broke into our house and attempted to rob us, all bets are off. You gave up your right to live and breathe freely I feel when you entered our domain and terrorized us. Besides, if they survive it's my word against their word and that could spell out more trouble for me legally. If you come into this house unwelcome and behave in such a manner you will be leaving in a body bag if I have my way.

I cannot say that I would be willing to kill another person except in self-defense, whether the situation was prolonged as with abused children or instantaneous as with someone breaking into our home.

Of course, it takes a lot to push me to a breaking point, but if you do there's no telling what will happen to you.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Yesterday on Oprah (I don't normally watch it, but I was channel surfing and it caught my attention) they were talking about a woman who shot her stepfather because she was abused and molested by him all her life and he abused her mother and her mother was sick and dying and he still abused her and he even started abusing/molesting the woman's daughter so she took a gun and killed him.

I personally don't feel bad about what she did and no one who knew her and her stepfather blamed her for what she did, but nonetheless she got 7 years in prison. I'm just wondering what you all think about this and if you think in certain circumstances such as this murder is justified.
To echo what others have said, of course murder is justified in situations like this. Moreso in cases of self defense.

I think that the reason why this particular woman was sent to jail was because the murder was premeditated. Knowing what he'd done to her and her family, she decided with a clear head to take a gun and kill him. That's first degree murder, justified or not, and carries a prison sentence (7 years is actually a very small amount of time for such a crime). With 20-20 hindsight, she could have called the cops on the stepfather, but I certainly don't fault her for dealing with the situation the way she did.

[Laisrean]

To echo what others have said, of course murder is justified in situations like this. Moreso in cases of self defense.

I think that the reason why this particular woman was sent to jail was because the murder was premeditated. Knowing what he'd done to her and her family, she decided with a clear head to take a gun and kill him. That's first degree murder, justified or not, and carries a prison sentence (7 years is actually a very small amount of time for such a crime). With 20-20 hindsight, she could have called the cops on the stepfather, but I certainly don't fault her for dealing with the situation the way she did.


She did call the cops once but they didn't do much. The law failed her so she took the law in her own hands. It was pre-meditated, but she was convicted only of manslaughter. Remember that the abuse was still continuing so it's not like she did it for revenge only.

[Silver_FireStar]

Sometimes murder is justified, afterall the death sentance is simply murder under another name. I don't like murder but I will say something. In a scenario where you fear for your saftey and there are no other options left open to you then yes I would say as a last resort it is condoneable, not acceptable, not right, but condonable.

[Dashifen]

I guess I'm a middle of the road kinda guy. I think murder is almost always justifiable, but I don't necessarily think it's always pardonable. I'm not a big fan of vigilantism and I think it would lead to a general breakdown of what most laughingly refert to as our culture. But, that being said, there are an infinite number of situations where I wouldn't hesitate to kill if necessary and be willing to accept, though not necessarily enjoy or agree with, the ruling of my peers as to the punishment that I face as a result of those actions.

[~SleepyWillow~]

Sometimes murder is justified, afterall the death sentance is simply murder under another name. I don't like murder but I will say something. In a scenario where you fear for your saftey and there are no other options left open to you then yes I would say as a last resort it is condoneable, not acceptable, not right, but condonable.

My sentiments exactly

[Faerwolf]

after being sent through court systems a couple of time (not for murder) i released that legal systems are all about politics, money, and fame. There is little care, be those in the system, to those who go through the system. How many people do you think get away with murder every year because the payed, did favors, or publicized for the benifit of others? How many people do you think are wrongfully accused? I think murder is a very personal thing, i know this might sound psycho but, killing someone is a decision, a choice, sometimes its survival. I'm not advocating killing another human being but there are factors that are beyond "societies" comprehension as a whole that individuals must make, for whatever reason they feel neccessary. There are some sick folks in this world, but nobody can say that they have never wished or thought any one dead before. Life promises death and i think there is a natural cylce that usually is followed. But everyones path isn't the same.

[zakzekezedd]

I think that there are times when murder may well be justified. That doesn't mean though that the murderer is above the law. The woman got 7 years, not 25 to life like she might have. Even if the end does justify the means, that doesn't always make it the legal thing to do, or maybe even the "right" thing to do...just the least of all possible evils.

[piglet]

The episode yesterday on Oprah was a re-run and it was the second time I had seen it. The woman, her sisters and her mother had been physically and sexually abused starting something like 50 years ago, her brothers had also been physically abused by the father. When she found out that he had been molesting her daughter, she called the police and he was detained OVERNIGHT(!!!). If the laws will not protect and innocent child - and this is not an isolated case - sexual offenders consistently get off with extremely lenient sentences, then I believe it is the duty of the parent to protect her.

Also, who are the victems in this situation? Every member of this man's family was "not suprised" that someone had finally shot him, they were relieved that he was finally dead, and could for once in their lives sleep at night.

I am sad that this woman has to spend so long in jail, but I'm sure she doesn't care because she knows her family is finally safe.

-piglet

[Aleigh]

I think in some cases "murder" is the wrong word for it. Self defense...getting rid of garbage...that's more like it. :p

Good for you LadyLeo! :hugz:

[Ron]

In short, no - not in my opinion. Life is G-d given and is for G-d and G-d alone to take away. (Accidental ... etc) In LadyLeo's situation, I cannot say that she was mudering him - she was defending herself and others - doing what was nessescary : : Bless her for that!

Love and Peace.

[sari0009]

Yesterday on Oprah ... a woman who shot her stepfather because she was abused and molested by him all her life and he abused her mother and her mother was sick and dying and he still abused her and he even started abusing/molesting the woman's daughter so she took a gun and killed him.

...she got 7 years in prison. I'm just wondering what you all think about this and if you think in certain circumstances such as this murder is justified.


Hi,

It depends on the situation. It helps to better know the particulars (of the above case or any other).

The instances in which there really are no other options and that one must kill in order to defend oneself are quite rare--rarer than actually perceived.

Ah, that's the trick isn't it? Perception! Knowledge.

Speaking as a former victim of some pretty horrendous abuse, I now see abuse is anti-magical (one could say a healthy and purposeful life is essentially a magical one). Knowledge...In abuse, we get cut off of better knowing ourselves (even our intuition), the facts, and imagining or creating viable options.

Couldn't the woman have reported the abuse regarding her mother and her kids? Did she? I could sit and make a list of options and then write pro and cons of each, check resources in her area at the time and so on. Did she? Did she network and prompt others for possibilities and resources that might have better helped her? Victims of chronic abuse often seem unable to do such basic logical things. Shattered, victims often are not a good knit of intellect and what little emotional intelligence they have managed to develop, which is usually initially (and sometimes permanently) considerably less if raised in abuse.

Imagination and sense of reality/perception are key yet these are the very things abusive situations put a stranglehold on--victims are (directly and/or by being worn down) taught to feel hopeless, helpless, and isolated (alone in the abuse) by their abusers. Further crimes of passion (violence) become more likely because not much may function in times of outrage and need.

There is a dance between the abused and the abuser, so to speak, and each of them often play pretty predictable narrowly defined roles, often seemingly locked into this dance of pain and destruction. As far as I'm concerned, if an abuser has worn (especially damaging if done in the formative years, and he did abuse her as a child) down his victims and affected their abilities to perceive, imagine, create and function as a healthier human being, then that abuser risks bringing their own destruction upon themselves, and in this case it happened to be murder.

The abusive step-father is dead and the woman who murdered unnecessarily (?) complicated her own life as well as her kids'.

I will say that co-destruction seems to be yet another form of codependent behavior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-dependency).

I'm not against destruction (ceasing/destroying bad situations), for I love the idea of Kali (not the "demonized" misogynistic versions of her but rather earlier ones) as an Earth Mother who has use for cycles of destruction and birth.


I am for well chosen useful and purposeful destruction [B]that can give rise/birth to increasingly better choices and a better life.

Looking at it as only one choice of many possible choices, murdering the abuser seems to be one of the trickier (if not nearly impossible) ways to destroy the abusive situation in order to make way for a healthier safer life and protect oneself and kids. Instead of crawling out from under a lifetime of abuse, murder creates a whole load more and is far more likely to create a destructive downward spiral instead of a purposeful balance between destruction and creation.


By the way, historically speaking, women who murder abusers, even in actual life or death situations, are often given harsher penalties and longer sentences than abusers who succeed in murdering their victims.

I will say that murdering an abuser is a wise option in very rare cases I doubt this is one of them though (not enough information but many questions). For instance, if she was old enough to have kids, question is, was she old enough to live elsewhere and stay away from a known (?) abuser. There are safehouses, shelters, and so on to prod for advice and/or help leave and stay out of abusive situations. I know. I've unfortunately had to use them years ago.

As for her dying mother, whom he was also abusing, I bet one could get a list of organizations one could turn to in such a situation, although I will admit that people often do turn a blind eye to such abuse. (For instance, when working as a nurse's aide 20 + years ago, I witnessed abuse between spouses. The wife was completely bedridden and helpless, the husband in a wheelchair, he'd inch his stiff legs and make his way over to her to beat her with his cane if he could, yet family and staff kept them in the same room even though they knew about the abuse.) Still, it all usually turns out better if one exhausts less potentially damaging options.

Abuse is often hard to prove, hard to solve, and when you do report it it often doesn't get properly resolved ... though sometimes it is resolved beautifully. It gets tricky and there are no guarantees. Even so, murder often turns out to be a poorer choice ... and it's not the only choice.

[Marchosias]

In short, no - not in my opinion. Life is G-d given and is for G-d and G-d alone to take away.

If that were the case, and this is assuming the existance of some creator, then would we be instilled with the ability?

I haven't seen many beams of Ye Olde Holy Light arcing from the sky to strike down the wicked in comparison to the chaos and death of everyday life.

[SilentDreams]

absolutely!! this will probably lead to lots of people thinking i'm a maniac... but i don't care.....

my ex was horribly abusive. only to me verbally for a few years, which i tolerated because i was stupid... eventually it came to us physically fighting, later on it came to him hitting the kids while i was at work, eventually it came down to me in a court room charged with attempted murder. i stabbed him repeatedly and broke several of his facial bones with my foot... when he called 911 i pushed him out a second story window. at that time my son drake was one year and 13 days old, i came home from work and found drake with a fractured skull, then i got hit for inquiring. i feel that would have been a justified murder.

edit: although i didn't end up going to prison, i was prepared to do so and thought it fair and worth it because he tried... and almost did kill my children


See that and the one on oprah. I say they are both justified. Yes when it comes to the law niether are but sometimes in flights of anger the law isn't good enough. I think in situations like this it should all be dropped and forgotten.

[morrigan]

i know if anyone touched my kids there would be no place on the face of the earth where they would be safe.. imo anyone who molests kids should have the most evil and painful things anyone could think of done to them and kept alive so they can endure them for the same amount of time they subjected the kids to it for then they should be done away with.. sometimes death would be the kinder option..

[soilsigh aingeal]

If some jerkoff molested my kid, plain and simple I would murder them and it would be justified in my eyes and that's all that I would care about. I'd serve my time with pride.

[soilsigh aingeal]

i know if anyone touched my kids there would be no place on the face of the earth where they would be safe.. imo anyone who molests kids should have the most evil and painful things anyone could think of done to them and kept alive so they can endure them for the same amount of time they subjected the kids to it for then they should be done away with.. sometimes death would be the kinder option.. I totally agree with you... or I would, if I thought for a second that anyone like that would even be bothered by someone torchering them. Maybe chop of body parts or things that cause pain, but I really don't believe that they would feel bad (for lack of a better word) if someone did similar acts to them... at least in a lot of cases.

[Mister Sandman]

What exactly does 'justified' mean, anyway?

That some universal law of 'justice' has calculated all the variables and decreed action X as the 'right' course? But it doesn't work like that. Law is about social order: legal 'rights' and 'wrongs' are concerned only with maintaining the structure of society, hence many of us feel we cannot afford to overlook punishment of any killing, lest attitudes toward this act start to become more casual - however much human cultures may have tried to lend their rules greater authority by proclaiming them divinely ordained. But whether the law should punish is a quite different question to whether the act was 'right.' I suppose it depends on your beliefs, but to hold to a religious view of right and wrong is really just to suppose 'God' has its own book of laws that supervene upon all human ones. If our worldview is not one of God-the-legislator-king, then what we seem to be left with is not a question of whether the act is 'right' or 'wrong' as though those are distinct and opposing essences, but one of action and consequence, cause and effect. Killing the nasty piece of work may have the consequence of removing one unpleasant influence upon the world's constitution, but it also impacts upon your own nature and the kind of person you shape yourself to being, and upon the nature of the world of which you are part. Then there is the matter of what reaction you will meet with from the legal system, from the rest of society, etc... In the end, though, it is a decision. We all free, decision-making creatures: but we must be aware that no action can be taken without consequence, and we must be certain those consequences are truly what we desire.

[donatello51]

Sometimes you have to kill the bear or it kills you. If you can not get out of the situation. If it will eventually end in your losing your own life. If that person was abused as a child it does NOT give them the right to pass on their pain to you. If they can not straighten out their life then you have to do that for them. If that means forcing then into their next life ahead of time... SO BE IT! Your giving then relief from their life of pain. A kind of euthaniasia... which I am in favor of. You should not be forced to live your life in pain against your will.

[trippingdaisy]

this subject is so sad. I believe that self defence is no offence.

[Teresa]

This is a tough question to answer.When I was faced with a possible him or me situation I did not think I could do it.I do have a very strong will to live but I also have something within me that won't allow me to take anothers life.I am thankful that I made it thru a tough time and still have my life.

[SIthErAc]

i think of murder like this if iam in a situation where its kill or be killed i will be the one killing because thats the way i feel, no one can tell me if someone was coming at you with the intent of murder you wouldnt try and defend yourself. but this is an odd topic as i watched a movie with an interesting plot a while ago.
the question behind the plot prety much was does murder prove your freedom as you are free enough to take a life? definetly a weird movie !but unfortunaley I cant for the life of me remember the name.
thats all i gots to say about that



:fpipesmok

[Suzy-Anne]

Even in the oddest of circumstances I believe that murder is never the answer. However, I do not have anything against people like the girl in that case mentioned. But luckily she only got seven years. Even for one murder people could get charged with life in prision or a death sentence... Uh, that was my silver lining. Wait... Was she charged with murder or man-slaughter? Man-slaughter would be the more appropriate accusation. Because it was out of emotional... rage, plus, I doubt she planned it all out.

[Mindflayer]

Personally, the only time I could ever justify killing someone is if there was NO other way to stop them from killing myself or someone else.

I have said, if there are 100 possible ways for me to end a conflict, killing someone will be possibility #101.


This is my personal views though, and I feel it would be much more satisfying to beat someone to a pulp then watch them rot in jail...

[butterflydreams]

I think there are times when a killing of a person is justified. From personal experience, I know that police do not always serve and protect. Putting a violent, abusive, or molester away over night, if even that, is not protecting anyone. From what I understand she did try that route and those were the results she got. It's easy to see how some could perceive that they have no way out of the abuse except for killing the abuser. It does then become self-defense - whether the system recognizes it as such or not.

I also agree with the thought that the death penalty is murder with another name. In my twisted opinion, the death penalty is worse that killing someone who has abused you, even if the killing of the person (like on Oprah) was premeditated. I was raised Catholic so I know the bible says an eye for an eye. Well, I can see no other real reason for the Death penatly. It doesn't so much for taxes since so many stay on death row for decades. Then when it does happen, the lethal injection or what not is done by some state appointed person who was never directly involved anyway. I think if we are going to have a Death penalty, the person or family of someone who was killed, raped, molested, should be the one to deal the final "blow". If someone hurt, abused, or molested my child, I would want to be the one to make sure they pay for it. Legally or not.

In the end, justice would be met by the person who is being abused killing the abuser. Not only that, but that would save us tax money for having to put that person on trial, house, them, feed them. We could be using that for the good of others who deserve that kind of help. And well for the many people that continue to molest, beat others without being caught, killing them is justified because it protects others from meeting the same fate as a victim. Someone who molests and beats someone else and takes their "normal" expected life away from them should not expect to have a safe, happy, long life. It should (in my ideal world) be understood that when you hurt others, your leave yourself open to being hurt, abused, in any way others see fit. The punishing the person who was and still is being abused needs to end.

I'm an idealist but I wish that we could look at things more as shades of grey, rather than the same rules apply to everyone regardless of the situation. That woman should not have done any time.

Okay enough of my long ramble.

[WingedTigerChild]

I think it's only justified in cases of self defense. If this man wasn't physically attacking her, her mom or whoever when she killed him, then no, she wasn't really justified, and deserves her prison sentence. Don't get me wrong, I can most certainly understand her motives, but that, by no means, makes her actions more or less justified.

[Flar's Freyja]

I think in some cases "murder" is the wrong word for it. Self defense...getting rid of garbage...that's more like it. :p

Good for you LadyLeo! :hugz:

I agree and like the way you put it. I am upset by some of the sentences imposed on battered women when even juries admit that they understand what drove the woman to kill her abuser. IMHO, living with what they had to do is punishment enough. >sigh< I suppose if there were no danger of consequences, some may be more likely to murder their husbands with premeditation, which is different than snapping from battered women's syndrome and is wrong.

I am very familiar with battered women's syndrome. Once, I was tempted to kill my ex after he'd beat the shit out of me and then passed out on the bed, drunk. We were way out in the country and no one would have heard a thing. My only obstacle was that he weighed 250 lbs and I had no idea how I'd get rid of the body!

But a few years later, it was worse. I literally spent several weeks entertaining ways to poison him and make it look like an accident, or imagined bashing his head in while he slept. I kept a 20 lb. mallet under the bed to protect myself from the next attack - and would have used it. This was the one thing that finally got me to leave for good. He was and never will be worth going to jail for.

If I had not left home right after high school, I may very well have done the same to my father, who was far worse than my ex in that on top of physical abuse, he had molested me, was actively molesting my baby sister and my mother refused to listen.

I'm also not sure that "justified" is the right word. In cases where someone has been repeatedly abused and finally driven to murder by the emotional and psychological damage - I want to know why some intervention wasn't made to prevent the person getting to that point :( In my case, it was my own psychological intervention, but had there been a crisis situation, who knows what I would have done.

[Pagan Taoist]

LadyLeo, you are absolutely amazing! I am a 3rd degree black belt in Taekwondo, I've studied Hapkido, Tai Chi, and Bagua as well (no ranks in any of those, after a while the belt loses it's meaning). Anyhow, I just LOVE to hear stories about women using martial arts to thump on an abuser.

I have a close friend who is very petite, but she rose to about 2nd degree black belt in our system before she quit. She dated a guy who got physical with her. He picked her up and slammed her against the wall so hard it fractured her sternum (did I spell that right??). Anyhow, she came off the wall and slam her fist into his face and broke his nose. He left town before we got wind of it (we being me, her brother, and our instructor).

As for the murder thing ... murder is defined as "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice." If self-defense can be proven and premeditation cannot then it doesn't qualify as murder. As for my stance on it? Yes there is absolute justification in it under the right circumstances. I'm guardian and godfather of two beautiful girls and I fear what I would do if I came home and one of them had a fractured skull or had been abused in some way.

[butterflydreams]

I look at it like this. The person may not be attacking her at the moment. However, there is a constant threat when there is a pattern of abuse like in that case. Just because the attacker my not be doing harm at that specific time, it was reasonable on the part of the woman that killed him to assume that it was only a matter of time and opportunity for this person to hurt her and her family again. If she just waited for him to start it "again" she may not be able to defend herself as well and he coult hurt / kill her, her mother, daughter, or someone else. That's why I think it was self-defense.

Even revenge in a case like that - would be justified in my opinion. It would benefit more rather than hurt more people.

[moria636]

I feel like alot of you... that murder and self defense are two differ'nt things...murder is something the charles manson clain committed and that is not justified..only sick!!!.... but if your life or the life of anyone else is in danger and the only way to stop it is by killing the threat it is not murder... and is most definatly justified...

[BlueTicona]

"murder" is to kill for a 'morally wrong' reason.
"killing" is open-ended for a person to decide if it goes to the degree of a classification of 'murder'

[Exloration_La]

The molestor was probably abused in his life, so is it fair to kill someone that never knew how to love or how to be selfless? (I'm not saying this is the case of course; but how are we to know is all I'm trying to get at)

The bottom line is WE ALL go through challenges in life and we all have and will be challenged with difficult and abusive people, but ultimately it is OUR responsibility on how we conduct ourselves. NO EXCUSESES. Allot of people are trying hard to exceed responsibility, putting their head in the sand, oh it’s genetics, or a disorder, everyone else is doing it. Zero responsibility.

The way I see it in life we should always deal as nicely and fairly with people but if they REFUSE to reason and insist upon infringing or in any way trying to molest our lives that is grounds to resolve that matter with whatever means necessary. You may think its okay to excuse someone that hasn’t dealt with their issues to victimize other and spread their disease and hurt around the world to get back at the harm that has been done to them, but I don’t’ excuse it. If you let it slide will you feel any guilt that you didn’t’ stop it when you could when the next person is victimized or a little girl is raped?

I don’t care what the law says.. I violent rape is most definitely punishable by death in my hook. If there is absolute 200% proof that it was a violent rape // not just where the girl feels and afterwards of she was being drunk and stupid then the rapist should be hung.. Probably publicly to make good example put of him, and send a message to other rapist..

Makes me wonder why anyone would sympathize with such inexcusable behavior… if my GF or family members or raped.. I don’t’ care what they went through and I don’t’ want anyone else to go through the same thing… A bullet is one sure way they wont’ victimize someone else. I believe it’s our duty to help keep this planed safe. Live and let life.. Rape heavily violated that!!!

[Exloration_La]

absolutely!! this will probably lead to lots of people thinking i'm a maniac... but i don't care.....

my ex was horribly abusive. only to me verbally for a few years, which i tolerated because i was stupid... eventually it came to us physically fighting, later on it came to him hitting the kids while i was at work, eventually it came down to me in a court room charged with attempted murder. i stabbed him repeatedly and broke several of his facial bones with my foot... when he called 911 i pushed him out a second story window. at that time my son drake was one year and 13 days old, i came home from work and found drake with a fractured skull, then i got hit for inquiring. i feel that would have been a justified murder.

edit: although i didn't end up going to prison, i was prepared to do so and thought it fair and worth it because he tried... and almost did kill my children

Good for you!! it's only our corrupt justice system who wouldn’t' stand behind you. What kind of sick perverts would stand behind such abuse? I think those who would sympathize with such a man probably has some similar traits to a person who would commit such horrible acts.

[Chesna]

Speaking as someone who has had a family member murdered..or killed...the taking of another life IS NEVER justified. Like someone said earlier (sorry can't remember) one may be able to understand. I am not fit either morally, psychologically or spiritually able to determine who has the right to live and die. All life is precious..just because someone did something wrong to another andother wrong doesn't make it right. Now I don't condone that man who abused his family members..that was 100% COMPLETELY IN THE WRONG..but that person was not responsible for ending his life. Now I know that the justice system is GREATLY FLAWED!!! And we may never find the justice that a person deserves..but if we were set on this earth to destroy life just because we thought they deserved it..we would hardly have a human population. Noe some may ask..if my family was jeopardy...would I do the same?? I don't know..but I do know what it feels like to lose someone at the hands of someone else and I don't think I could be responsible for that. Because..that life I may take..may or will be missed by someone..there is a family and loved ones behind that family...
Just as an FYI- here is Dictionary.com version of what murder is:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=murder


Chesna

[soulforged]

I, too, am one to say that there is a difference between killing and murder.

I also believe that there are times when killing is justified. If the choice is between taking someone's life and losing my own because they are intent on doing me harm, my choice is clear, I will do what is necessary to preserve my life, as well as the lives of others.

Just as the attacker does not consider or respect my right to exist, or the rights of any other innocents that the attacker considers prey, I shall not consider the attacker's. That right becomes negated to me.

Self-defense, the extinguishing of a threat such as a cruel abuser of innocents, that is justified in my view.

[Exloration_La]

I think that there are times when murder may well be justified. That doesn't mean though that the murderer is above the law. The woman got 7 years, not 25 to life like she might have. Even if the end does justify the means, that doesn't always make it the legal thing to do, or maybe even the "right" thing to do...just the least of all possible evils.

I see some of you making less of this.. ONLY 7 years of her life stolen!!!!. You know I ANYTHIGN she should get a reward or a golden medal for COMMUNITY SERVICE. NOT PUNISHMENT!!!

[Cain]

How are we defining murder, exactly? Are we talking about killing people who aren't an immediate threat? Sometimes I can see that being necessary, but very rarely and usually against the sort of monster whom little else would stop. I can think of one man I know who would come close to that description, but fortunately they seem to be the rare type, or end up on the wrong end of law enforcement anyway. If they don't, then...perhaps I can see it being permissible.

[HeavensHope]

I dont think it's justified to take matters into your own hands, there are always other ways to deal with things. I'm not saying I feel bad for the guy because I dont.

If it was in self defense then it's not actually murder, well not 1st degree murder at least.

If its pre-meditated murder (1st or 2nd degree),for whatever reasons (even if it's a good one) that person will be punished for it, first degree murder is normally a life or death sentence. It might be justified and that person can maybe serve less then a life time...but that depends on the judge and jury.

If it's in self defense (voluntary manslaughter)then you wouldnt get punish for it or not as severly..NORMALLY, there have been many cases where someone has been locked up for life (that's just messed up).

What people dont understand is that yes, everyone may think it's justified and it probably is, but at the same time it's a moral issue. Morals normally are in relation to religion it's not up to the court system and Judges to decide what is 'moral' their job is to 'weight' evidence and give out sentences accordingly. You're being tried in court not in a church people. Dont get me wrong, I dont think that what she did was wrong but that's just how the court system works.

[Exloration_La]

For you who really actually sympathize with rapist and pedophiles and such… well first of all I really wonder about you.. Wheatear you have a perverted uncle you really love? Or somehow you could see yourself doing such acts and don’t’ think it’s that bad.. I’m not sure but I kind of boggles my mind..

Either way I believe people that think forced violent rape and breaking the skull of a young child is not punishable by death then I see you as part of the medium that allows such things to exist. You are the kind of people or at lest to a degree or another who give these sickest a slap on the wrist for rapping young women, and allow them to re-offend , and spread their disease around the world… Strongly allot of little boys that are raped in cases where no justice was taken latter think that behavior was okay.. If their rapists is publicly hung or flogged before his death I guarantee you that boy will KNOW it is NOT okay. This behavior needs to be nipped in the bud.

FOR THE WORLDS WELL BEING ALL THOSE WHO BELIVE SICKOS WHO RAPE AND MOLESTING KIDS is not punishable my death then I wish upon you understanding. This understanding needs to come to you by any means necessary!! Maybe you need to be brutally raped tortured carped and pissed on? Whatever extremes you sympathizers of abuses need I wish it upon you that you may come to a point of understanding as NOT to act as a medium for criminals to commit such acts.

Imagine now these horrendous crimes being committed against you and your family. If that is not enough you may eventually find the world giving you circumstances to give you a clear understanding however extreme they need to be. And after that I doubt you will be talking so riotously about how wrong it is to take a pedophile like.. If you are a molester yourself then you will probably be to twisted to ever understand.

some of you are on the right track and I applaud you.. however I am APPALLED that some of you think killing is NEVER a justifiable means for self defense especially if your own children where being brutally beaten or molested... If you are a woman could you rally imagine a man that loved you saying .. hey don’t do that to my wife that is not nice... or if you are a man your mom sister or lover being raped... or what about small children... I am shocked that some of you would sympathize with such a rapist.. I would think this would be unanimous in support of the person defending themselves... I guess you can’t really trust this world to offer you justice or our legal system with sympathizers of such people.

[Lunar Raven]

Rape, murder, abuse I've heard it all. Seen some of it, sadly. I can see why someone would WANT the person who wronged them or someone else dead, but it fixes nothing (unless it's your only way to safety). I don't think planned murder is justifiable, because in this day and age you can do something about it in other ways.

Killing is wrong, end of story.

In general, I see 'murder' as obviously wrong. Even the death penalty, I disagree with. The death penalty in itself is quite a moronic idea. As much as many of the criminals out there in prison probably deserve what they get..I simply don't see the logic in killing people for killing. What message is that sending out? That murder is okay as long as you're getting back at someone who did the same? They label it as a "justice" but we all know it's nothing more than revenge. I'm not sure what the answer is...or know of an alternative solution, but murder is murder. I personally don't feel sorry for anyone who get's the death penalty...because they did something horrible to get there...but the fact that we disaprove of murder, while making it okay to kill people for acts that they commited, and call it "justice" is ludicrous.

..but that's really another topic, because this thread seems mainly about someone taking 'justice' into their own hands and killing someone.

As someone said above, killing and murder are slightly different. I myself, see KILLING only apropriate if it's the only way for survival *you or your family*. This does not include plannining out, going to where the person is, and killing them because they had wronged your or your loved ones.

There's also a difference between justification and understanding. I can UNDERSTAND why someone would murder an abuser, but I don't think it's justified.



FOR THE WORLDS WELL BEING ALL THOSE WHO BELIVE SICKOS WHO RAPE AND MOLESTING KIDS is not punishable my death then I wish upon you understanding. This understanding needs to come to you by any means necessary!! Maybe you need to be brutally raped tortured carped and pissed on? Whatever extremes you sympathizers of abuses need I wish it upon you that you may come to a point of understanding as NOT to act as a medium for criminals to commit such acts.


No offense, but I see you as lacking 'understanding'. I by no means sympathize with abusers. My father abused my mother for years when I was a kid. I watched it all, and even got some of it. Once she FINALLY left him, I hated him. Sometimes, I wished he'd get what he deserved, but never once did find myself plotting a way to go back and get 'revenge'..or should we say 'justice'. It would make me just as bad as him.

The people that say things like 'the molester who was abusing these children was probably molested himself' are probably right. That doesn't justify the abuser, but just killing him off is senseless. In my honest opinion, I think that understanding is the key to prevention. Violence does not get rid of violence. Obviously.

[CoolJ]

My personal definition of murder is unjustified killing.

[Exloration_La]

I don't think planned murder is justifiable, because in this day and age you can do something about it in other ways.
APARENTLY MANY SEX ABUSERS CARY AIDS AND STDS and you are going to stand up and say not only should he not be killed but have the opportunity to victimize another child and take their life with AIDS and plague them with lifelong STDS. That is MOST definitely punishable by death! Sex is a sacred thing you share with someone you love.. For someone to steal that form a person by force is sick beyond words and immediate killing of that person should be applied either right away or after our justice system only gave him ONLY a slap on the wrist. YES EVEN premeditated killing as That may be the only way to save another child!!

If you go to our legal system and they get a slap on the wrist then the perpetrator is given the message that it is okay, and that is the problem and reason we have so man repeat offenders out there. Someone who commits such acts needs to be prevented form committing those kind of acts in the future, and there is only one sure fire way that he wont' victimize someone else’s kids. It' not just about YOURSELF it's about others futures who might be put in harms way of such people.

The person who gets away with such acts demonstrates to the public that it is okay.

We have petty wars fought over petty stupid stuff and over greed for power, and yet someone is spared that molests a child!!! Makes me sick!!!

[HeavensHope]

APARENTLY MANY SEX ABUSERS CARY AIDS AND STDS and you are going to stand up and say not only should he not be killed but have the opportunity to victimize another child and take their life with AIDS and plague them with lifelong STDS. That is MOST definitely punishable by death! Sex is a sacred thing you share with someone you love.. For someone to steal that form a person by force is sick beyond words and immediate killing of that person should be applied either right away or after our justice system only gave him ONLY a slap on the wrist. YES EVEN premeditated killing as That may be the only way to save another child!!

If you go to our legal system and they get a slap on the wrist then the perpetrator is given the message that it is okay, and that is the problem and reason we have so man repeat offenders out there. Someone who commits such acts needs to be prevented form committing those kind of acts in the future, and there is only one sure fire way that he wont' victimize someone else’s kids. It' not just about YOURSELF it's about others futures who might be put in harms way of such people.

The person who gets away with such acts demonstrates to the public that it is okay.

We have petty wars fought over petty stupid stuff and over greed for power, and yet someone is spared that molests a child!!! Makes me sick!!!

Uh..yeah, I'm pretty sure just because he doesnt believe that premeditated murder is justified doesnt mean he thinks it's okay for them to go free and unpunished either. Dont take things out of context.

I'm positive that people like that dont get away with just a slap on the wrist from our court system (at least the majority of them dont). Some people see an eye for an eye...but others see a life locked up in prison a much harsher punishment than death. Once you kill someone that's it, but if you lock them up for however long they have to live, to suffer and think about what they did in a cement cell surrounded by other criminals who might just put them through the same hell they did to their victims, that to me is a harsher punishment.

If we all started taking matters into our own hands then who's to say what is justifable and what's not?

FYI: I've gone through this and was lucky enough to get away untouched but I have close friends who werent as fortunate. So I'm not speaking out as a bystander trying to put myself into her situation...I've lived it and I've known many people who've gone through the same thing 10 times over.

[AutumnRain]

Speaking as someone who has had a family member murdered..or killed...the taking of another life IS NEVER justified. Like someone said earlier (sorry can't remember) one may be able to understand. I am not fit either morally, psychologically or spiritually able to determine who has the right to live and die. All life is precious..just because someone did something wrong to another andother wrong doesn't make it right. Now I don't condone that man who abused his family members..that was 100% COMPLETELY IN THE WRONG..but that person was not responsible for ending his life. Now I know that the justice system is GREATLY FLAWED!!! And we may never find the justice that a person deserves..but if we were set on this earth to destroy life just because we thought they deserved it..we would hardly have a human population. Noe some may ask..if my family was jeopardy...would I do the same?? I don't know..but I do know what it feels like to lose someone at the hands of someone else and I don't think I could be responsible for that. Because..that life I may take..may or will be missed by someone..there is a family and loved ones behind that family...

Chesna



:uhhuhuh: Amen to that!

Love and Light,
Autumn

[Athena-Nadine]

Murder is never justified. Killing, however, sometimes is not only justified, but is also the right thing to do.

[Cynyr]

Yesterday on Oprah (I don't normally watch it, but I was channel surfing and it caught my attention) they were talking about a woman who shot her stepfather because she was abused and molested by him all her life and he abused her mother and her mother was sick and dying and he still abused her and he even started abusing/molesting the woman's daughter so she took a gun and killed him.

I personally don't feel bad about what she did and no one who knew her and her stepfather blamed her for what she did, but nonetheless she got 7 years in prison. I'm just wondering what you all think about this and if you think in certain circumstances such as this murder is justified.

In this particular case I wouldn't call it 'murder' since that word implies wanton, senseless act. I would call it 'justifiable homicide'. I would try to put myself in this person's shoes ~~ been molested and abused all my life by a certain person who also abused my mother who was sick and dying and then the bastard begins same with my child ~~ To me this is an easy call. Take him out - his life serves no purpose but to harm and damage others - he's a worthless, vile human being. I'm assuming the local constablery did nothing about this(?)

Yes, I would go to prison and some may think I would even deserve it, others not. You gotta try to imagine what living her life was like. Did she, her mother and her child deserve what they got from this perverted, violent freak? I will never presume to be so puritan as to tout that all life is sacred because I simply do not believe that. Now, one or many will inevitably ask, "So what is your criterion Cynyr? How can you be the judge? What gives you the right?" and on, and on, and on... If the above doesn't help to lay down some criteria for worthwhile people and worthless people to any of you at all, then you will only sit back and judge me to condemnation for my opinion.

Tell me. What should be my punishment for having this viewpoint?

[semi]

I have read only the first post and Athena-Nadine's perfect post above me here, none of the others.

There is a big difference between murder and killing. Murder is wrong, in my opinion. It is the taking of innocent life. Killing is what is done to murderers, who, by the act of murder (be it rape, child abuse, or any other form of murder) forfeit their right to live.

[Lunar Raven]

APARENTLY MANY SEX ABUSERS CARY AIDS AND STDS and you are going to stand up and say not only should he not be killed but have the opportunity to victimize another child and take their life with AIDS and plague them with lifelong STDS. That is MOST definitely punishable by death! Sex is a sacred thing you share with someone you love.. For someone to steal that form a person by force is sick beyond words and immediate killing of that person should be applied either right away or after our justice system only gave him ONLY a slap on the wrist. YES EVEN premeditated killing as That may be the only way to save another child!!

If you go to our legal system and they get a slap on the wrist then the perpetrator is given the message that it is okay, and that is the problem and reason we have so man repeat offenders out there. Someone who commits such acts needs to be prevented form committing those kind of acts in the future, and there is only one sure fire way that he wont' victimize someone else’s kids. It' not just about YOURSELF it's about others futures who might be put in harms way of such people.

The person who gets away with such acts demonstrates to the public that it is okay.

We have petty wars fought over petty stupid stuff and over greed for power, and yet someone is spared that molests a child!!! Makes me sick!!!

Err..you obviously don't get it. I don't think that child molesters should be slapped and let out to go to frollick around in their local McDonalds looking for their next victim. Not at all. I just don't think that violence solves violence. Understand? It's a stupid concept. If anything, we should be studying these people, and trying to understand WHY they do what they do, how they think...and what makes them tick. Simply killing them is a temporary fix to a much larger problem. We will never cleanse the world of sickos, but if we ignorantly try to just 'rid' ourselves of them, the problem will never improve. How are we suppose to try to prevent people from becoming child molesters and such, without even attempting to understand the child molester? It just makes no sense to me.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Err..you obviously don't get it. I don't think that child molesters should be slapped and let out to go to frollick around in their local McDonalds looking for their next victim. Not at all. I just don't think that violence solves violence. Understand? It's a stupid concept. If anything, we should be studying these people, and trying to understand WHY they do what they do, how they think...and what makes them tick. Simply killing them is a temporary fix to a much larger problem. We will never cleanse the world of sickos, but if we ignorantly try to just 'rid' ourselves of them, the problem will never improve. How are we suppose to try to prevent people from becoming child molesters and such, without even attempting to understand the child molester? It just makes no sense to me.

So, would you aprove of comming up with some sort of "solution" like in A Clockwork Orange, that would stop these people from committing terrible crimes? If not, then what would you propose? Studying can only go so far. You can kill them and be done with it, keep everyone impisoned and make the taxpayers pay for scum, or "fix" people like in A Clockwork Orange and strip away their ability of free will.

AA,
Prefers eye for an eye himself.

[HeavensHope]

So, would you aprove of comming up with some sort of "solution" like in A Clockwork Orange, that would stop these people from committing terrible crimes? If not, then what would you propose? Studying can only go so far. You can kill them and be done with it, keep everyone impisoned and make the taxpayers pay for scum, or "fix" people like in A Clockwork Orange and strip away their ability of free will.

AA,
Prefers eye for an eye himself.

Actually it cost more for execution then it would to keep them locked up (I thought it would be the other way around but turns out not). There's also that chance that if the prisoner survives the execution he's basically off the hook and set free. You only get one chance to get it right, if the person is in the electric chair and something happens to the power during the ordeal and the prisoner survives..tough, no do-overs, he's free.

[Lunar Raven]

So, would you aprove of comming up with some sort of "solution" like in A Clockwork Orange, that would stop these people from committing terrible crimes? If not, then what would you propose? Studying can only go so far. You can kill them and be done with it, keep everyone impisoned and make the taxpayers pay for scum, or "fix" people like in A Clockwork Orange and strip away their ability of free will.

AA,
Prefers eye for an eye himself.

I don't know about that, sadly I've not seen the movie. Lol. I should eh? I don't have a solution, really. I just don't think that killing off people is the answer.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Actually it cost more for execution then it would to keep them locked up (I thought it would be the other way around but turns out not). There's also that chance that if the prisoner survives the execution he's basically off the hook and set free. You only get one chance to get it right, if the person is in the electric chair and something happens to the power during the ordeal and the prisoner survives..tough, no do-overs, he's free.

Do you have any evidence to back up that one execution is more expensive than a lifetime imprisonment? Also, what are the percentages of people surviving their execution? I never hear about it. Plus, with lethal injection, it's probably done until their heart stops beating anyways. *shrugs*

[Akhkharu Asgard]

I don't know about that, sadly I've not seen the movie. Lol. I should eh? I don't have a solution, really. I just don't think that killing off people is the answer.

Just a quick summary. The main character commits terrible crimes (rapes and murders) and is caught and imprisoned. There is a new way to "cure" people like him so they will never commit crimes. When he feels like he wants to do something bad, he gets sick. And he no longer has a choice in his life, nor can he even defend himself from the attacks of others. That's sort of what it's about.

AA,
Knows freewill is important to humans.

[Fire's Shadow]

Do you have any evidence to back up that one execution is more expensive than a lifetime imprisonment?

It doesn't sound right, but it's actually true. I know this because I used to write papers on this sort of thing all the time.


According to Richard Dieter, Executive Director of the Death Penalty Information Center in Washington, D.C., the most comprehensive cost study was published by Duke University researchers in 1993. This two-year study determined North Carolina's capital cases cost at least an extra $2.16 million per execution, compared to what taxpayers would have spent if defendants were tried without the death penalty and sentenced to life in prison.
Source: http://www.fguide.org/Bulletin/cappun.htm

Also, here is a breakdown of studies in several other states:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7

Every time, execution costed more than life imprisonment.

[Little Billy]

Yes.

[Lunar Raven]

Short and sweet. You make my long answers look inferior =(.

[HeavensHope]

Do you have any evidence to back up that one execution is more expensive than a lifetime imprisonment? Also, what are the percentages of people surviving their execution? I never hear about it. Plus, with lethal injection, it's probably done until their heart stops beating anyways. *shrugs*

I know this because it was something I learned from one of my political science classes, you can always just google it. I dont know the percentages..i'm sure it isnt high, it's not exactly something that happens often. But if they have that rule it probably means that it's happened before. I didnt pull this stuff out of my ass...I'm just stating what I've learned.

I have a different reason for not believing in the death penalty..it has nothing to do with what this thread is about. There have been people who have been executed and with later evidence found innocent, too little too late for that person.

here's a link if you wanna check it out: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?&did=1708

That's just one of many.

[HeavensHope]

It doesn't sound right, but it's actually true. I know this because I used to write papers on this sort of thing all the time.


Source: http://www.fguide.org/Bulletin/cappun.htm

Also, here is a breakdown of studies in several other states:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7

Every time, execution costed more than life imprisonment.

ha! I know what I'm talking about.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

It doesn't sound right, but it's actually true. I know this because I used to write papers on this sort of thing all the time.


Source: http://www.fguide.org/Bulletin/cappun.htm

Also, here is a breakdown of studies in several other states:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7

Every time, execution costed more than life imprisonment.

Okay, thanks for that. It sure doesn't sound right. But oh well. That doesn't really change my personal views on the whole thing. I still believe some people deserve to be executed. *shrugs*

[Fire's Shadow]

Some people should get executed. Quite frankly, I can't wait for the day until we capture Osama and watch him hang. I'm not against it completely, but the death penalty in the U.S. does has it's problems, it's not exactly foolproof. There are botched executions, innocent people put on death row, inconsistency between states, and racism seems to be playing a factor into who gets the chair and who doesn't.

They tried to fix it several years ago, but they didn't really get the kinks out.

But where I stand on this whole issue: long story short, murder can be justified.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Quite frankly, I can't wait for the day until we capture Osama and watch him hang.

Don't hold your breath.

[Eldric_Dragonsblood]

Some folks just need killin'.

I'm not going to get into my reasonings for if/when I would kill, but suffice it to say, I would kill and not have remorse if needed.

[Ramases1]

Yesterday on Oprah (I don't normally watch it, but I was channel surfing and it caught my attention) they were talking about a woman who shot her stepfather because she was abused and molested by him all her life and he abused her mother and her mother was sick and dying and he still abused her and he even started abusing/molesting the woman's daughter so she took a gun and killed him.

I personally don't feel bad about what she did and no one who knew her and her stepfather blamed her for what she did, but nonetheless she got 7 years in prison. I'm just wondering what you all think about this and if you think in certain circumstances such as this murder is justified.

If its in the intrests of the greater good, yes. take said woman, she killed a man who was sick, who hurt his family in the worst ways, if he did that to his closest and dearest, what was he capable of doing to others? death is not the end, and if someone needs killing a few times to teach them a lesson, so be it. such people will always exist, there will allways be evil in the world. without it the cosmos would die, there must allways be a balance, we will all live as evil at least once in our many lives, for we must expereience everything before regoining divinity.

[Kalika]

Justified... yes.

But whether it is or not, you'll still be punished... that's the way our laws work.

[Cynyr]

Actually it cost more for execution then it would to keep them locked up (I thought it would be the other way around but turns out not). There's also that chance that if the prisoner survives the execution he's basically off the hook and set free. You only get one chance to get it right, if the person is in the electric chair and something happens to the power during the ordeal and the prisoner survives..tough, no do-overs, he's free.

I've never seen anyone produce any realiable stats on this - although it is much touted without question. :noway: :goodgrief

[Cynyr]

All life is precious..just because someone did something wrong to another andother wrong doesn't make it right.


Chesna


Why Not?

[Meadhbh]

I think it is. Sometimes it is the only way to end something. If your in the situation where its either you or them not a lot of people are going to set there and let themselves get killed. Thats not the way people are wired, I think its wrong to go out and kill some random person because you feel like killing some one, but in the right situation I can see how it needs to be done or why some would do it.

[Eldric_Dragonsblood]

I've never seen anyone produce any realiable stats on this - although it is much touted without question. :noway: :goodgrief

It's actually incorrect. It is a misrepresentation of the facts.

Trial and appeals of Death Penalty cases cost more than life sentances. (average about $15,000 more for death penalty)

Total costs (trial, imprisionment, and execution) is significantly less. (Average savings of execution v. life imprisionment: $680,549. Execution v. Life with no parole: $773,726)

Source: Tenessee's Death Penalty: Cost and Consequences. Dated 2004 (http://www.comptroller.state.tn.us/orea/reports/deathpenalty.pdf)

People who are against the death penalty try to use the arguement of cost, without mentioning the actual cost of imprisonment, as it would be proven to be FAR cheaper to execute.

[Philosophia]

I'm against the death penalty (unless in extreme circumstances) for a number of reasons.
However, murder can be justified in a number of etreme occasions, i.e. rape, selfd-defense, etc..

[Cynyr]

It's actually incorrect. It is a misrepresentation of the facts.

Trial and appeals of Death Penalty cases cost more than life sentances. (average about $15,000 more for death penalty)

Total costs (trial, imprisionment, and execution) is significantly less. (Average savings of execution v. life imprisionment: $680,549. Execution v. Life with no parole: $773,726)

Source: Tenessee's Death Penalty: Cost and Consequences. Dated 2004 (http://www.comptroller.state.tn.us/orea/reports/deathpenalty.pdf)

People who are against the death penalty try to use the arguement of cost, without mentioning the actual cost of imprisonment, as it would be proven to be FAR cheaper to execute.


Ahh, I figured... Thank you for the believable and more logical stats.

[Fire's Shadow]

It's actually incorrect. It is a misrepresentation of the facts.

Trial and appeals of Death Penalty cases cost more than life sentances. (average about $15,000 more for death penalty)

Total costs (trial, imprisionment, and execution) is significantly less. (Average savings of execution v. life imprisionment: $680,549. Execution v. Life with no parole: $773,726)

Source: Tenessee's Death Penalty: Cost and Consequences. Dated 2004 (http://www.comptroller.state.tn.us/orea/reports/deathpenalty.pdf)

People who are against the death penalty try to use the arguement of cost, without mentioning the actual cost of imprisonment, as it would be proven to be FAR cheaper to execute.

I've looked into it because I'm doing a paper on it as we speak. This is not the case in other states.

Look other states for instance:


The average cost for each execution in Florida (the sum of the charges for the byzantine legal wranglings that preceded it) has been found to be about $3m; in Texas, $2.3m. For the same money, three prisoners could be kept in a high-security jail for 40 years.
Source: "DOES DEATH WORK?" Economist, 12/10/94, Vol. 333, Issue 7893

Plus, look at how bad California is with it:


The cost of the death penalty is also a growing concern. For example, in California, maintaining the capital punishment system costs taxpayers approximately $114 million a year--more than keeping offenders behind bars for life, according to state and federal records obtained by the Los Angeles Times. Recent studies of death penalty costs also illustrate that capital punishment trials are longer and more expensive at every stage of the process than other murder trials. The state currently has 640 people on death row, which is 20 percent of the nation's total. California, however, only accounts for 1 percent of the nation's total executions. Since 1978, 11 people have been executed in California.
Source: "Questioning Capital Punishment" State Legislatures, Sep2005, Vol. 31, Issue 8

Unless I'm just not seeing something here, I believe the costs of death penalties in these states are much higher than the one in Tennessee.

I'm scanning EBSCO and Academic Search Premier electronic libraries for examples that the death penalty doesn't cost more than life inprisonment... but I'm not finding any.

[AussiePagan]

Yes, under certain circumstances.

If you attack me, or one of my mates or a member of my family, and I don't think you intend to kill, then I would try to only use enough force to drop you to the ground.

If you try to kill us, I'm going for the throat. Basic survival instinct.

However that does not mean people should be killed in revenge or in the name of justice. In the heat of the moment to defend your own, absolutely. In revenge, or capital punishment, no.

[Pagan Mantis]

Murder will never be justified in the public eye, nor by the justice system. It is so hard to put a jury in the place of a rape victim, or John Wayne Bobbit, or the parent of a child hit by a drunk driver. This is really a question that has no actual answer. Hell yes; I'd kill any person who would enter my home, without explicit invitation at 2 in the morning. I'd also either take the life, or end my own if my genitalia were removed, I wouldn't rape anyone, but at the same instance, sex is so freely offered nowadays, and then taken to court, I can see where the controversy may be raised in this case. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR DRIVING DRUNK, so, there's no argument there.

[Amythyst]

Maybe in some cases of self-defense.

However, as an example, let's say you shot someone attempting to break into your home. When you shot him, let's say he was outside the house on the front porch, and that's where the police find his body.

Did you know that, even though this person was in the process of breaking into your house, he was not actually inside your home. Therefore, even though you were the victim, you could be in big trouble.

On the other hand, if you had waited for him to enter the house and then shot him, the law would be on your side.

This is a bit of wisdom from my mother. She worked in law enforcement.

[Malcolm]

I can think of a few people the world would be better off without. So yes. Murder is justifiable sometimes.