Jesus as Horus

[Kheti]

Jesus AS Horus (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen046.html)
Very strange article,Has any one ever heard of or read this before?

[~Anamorata~]

Once or twice...it's odd how the Bible refers to us as bad, then uses are Deities in conjunction with theirs...Jesus as Horus? I can see the connection....

[Leighla]

I haven't seen that one. That was interesting. I have seen Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth (http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/getting_started_pocm.html) .

[Queenorivers]

our religion is very like christianity, i.e. yule

[Ahautenites]

Christianity "borrowed" a lot from ancient Egypt. It's not surprising that someone would try to draw a correlation between the divine child Heru-sa-aset and the divine child Jesus. However, Kevin Williams (the author) is trying bend ancient Egyptian myths and legends in a way that supports his theory and he's relying on the reader's lack of knowledge of Egypt to make his claims stick.

Identical Life Experiences
(1) It is written that both Horus and Jesus existed before their incarnations.
Only if you don't into account that there are a BUNCH of Horuses. This one leads you to believe that Horus the Elder and Horus, the Son of Isis are the same Name of Netjer. They're not. (The One and The Many means that all gods are individuals as well as facets of the great divinity known as Netjer, but in this particular case, we're dealing with individuals.)

(2) Horus was born of the virgin Isis on December 25th in a cave/manger.
Um.... while Aset and Isis aren't the same, I doubt very much that the author knows the difference between the two. And if we take Aset to be Who he means when he says "Isis," then he's wrong again. Aset breathed life into her dead husband's member and had sex with him. So, while Her husband did die before Their marriage was consummated, She was not a virgin when She gave birth to Heru.

Also (I forgot to add this earlier), but there's no way of saying for sure if Heru and Jesus were both born on the 25th of December for two reasons. First off, people aren't sure if Jesus was born on December 25th or January 6th (aka Little Christmas), and second, the Egyptian calendar was nowhere near as static as the current calendar. It depended on the flooding of the Nile, and on whether the calendar was accurate or way off at the time. The ancient Egyptians didn't have leap years, so eventually, their calendar did get off schedule by quite a bit before they reordered the calendar.

(3) Horus' birth was announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

I've never heard of this. As far as I knew, Aset gave birth in secret. There was no one present at the birth (except for maybe Her sister Nebt-Het, in some versions).

(4) The infant Horus was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of Typhon.

Nope. Set is a very different god than Typhon, even though Kevin is insisting that They are the same.

And not a blesséd drop of any of these next five numbers applies to any of the Names of Netjer that go by the name Heru (Horus). It's all Christian stuff.

(5) He was a child teacher in the temple and was baptized by “Anup the Baptizer” when he was thirty years old.

Ancient Egyptians didn't baptize their children or their adults.

(6) He had twelve disciples and performed miracles such as feeding bread to the multitude and walking on water.

Heru (all of Them) is a god. He could do whatever He wanted. He had followers, but not disciples. He didn't perform miracles. He just did what a god can do when a god wants to because He is a god. And He didn't really care that much about feeding the multitude with bread. He would have imparted strength and knowledge and tenacity to His people in order to help them make their own grain and bread. Egyptian gods don't generally give free handouts because it weakens Their people. And as to walking on water: I don't recall reading that he walked on it. I do recall that He changed Himself into a hippo to fight Set *in* the water, but not on top of the water's surface. (But again, He's a god. He can do whatever the hell He wants.)

(7) He raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.

Nope. Once an ancient Egyptian human died (unlike what could happen with gods), they were dead for good. Wesir (Osiris) would have been major-league ticked off if His son tried to remove any of His subjects from His domain.

(8) He transfigured on a mount.

Again with the "He's a god, so He can do whatever He wants" answer. I'd have thought transfiguring *Himself* into anything ELSE He wanted to would be more impressive, but hey, whatever floats your boat. For the record, I know of no transfigured mounts in ancient Egyptian myth and legend. (Doesn't mean there aren't any. It just means I haven't read about them.)

(9) He also had titles such as the "way, the truth, the light, the Messiah, God's anointed Son, the Son of Man, the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the Word, the Morning Star, the light of the world.”

Heru is a war & strategies kind of god. He ain't a shepherd in any sense of the word, and He most definitely would be a lion, not a lamb.

(10) He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the lamb, lion and fish ("Ichthys").

Fish are completely abhorent to the Names of Netjer, particularly to Aset, Heru-sa-Aset and Wesir, on account of Wesir's member having gotten EATEN by a fish. I seriously doubt that any ancient Egyptian would ever have referred to Heru as a Fisher because it would be a grievous insult to Him.

He was called the Harpooner, yes, but that was because He harpooned Set while that one was in the form of a hippo or a croccodile. He wasn't harpooning whales or fish. (Unless the fish was also a transfigured Set.)

(11) Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father."

**rolls eyes** Twit. This statement confuses Heru the Elder and Heru-sa-Aset. Heru-sa-aset has the personal epithet of "Iusa," but He is the son of Wesir, NOT the son of Ptah. Heru the Elder is not called "Iusa" and I don't recall if He is the son of Ptah.

(12) Horus was called "KRST," or "Anointed One.”

Wanna bet? The only wording I can find that even remotely resembles this is "Heru-pa-khered," which means "Horus-the-child."

(13) He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.

Crucifixion was a Roman thing. The Romans didn't come to Egypt until about 4000 years after Heru-sa-Aset had already been born. The only ones Who were buried in a tomb (kind of) and resurrected were Wesir and Sokar.

(14) The adoration of the Virgin and Child is connected with both the adoration of Isis and the infant Horus and the adoration of Mary and infant Jesus. In the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis, the original "Madonna and Child."

Yes. As I said, ancient Christians did "borrow" many notions from ancient Egypt. (If anyone doubts me, then ask yourself why prayers are ended with "amen," which is the name of one of the Egyptian gods.)

(15) Concerning the writing of the Gnostics, C. W. King, a noted English author, says: "To this period belongs a beautiful sard in my collection, representing Serapis,...whilst before him stands Isis, holding in one hand the sistrum, in the other a wheatsheaf, with the legend: 'Immaculate is our lady Isis,' the very term applied afterwards to that personage who succeeded to her form, her symbols, rites, and ceremonies" (Gnostics and Their Remains, p. 71).

Gnosticism didn't exist 6000 years ago. Sorry to disappoint you, Kevin.

(16) Osiris, Isis, and Horus are the principal trinity of the Egyptian religions. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Christian trinity. Dr. Inman affirms the Egyptian roots of the Christian trinity "The Christian trinity is of Egyptian origin, and is as surely a pagan doctrine as the belief in heaven and hell, the existence of a devil, of archangels, angels, spirits and saints, martyrs and virgins, intercessors in heaven, gods and demigods, and other forms of faith which deface the greater part of modern religions" (Ancient Pagan and Modem Christian Symbolism, p. 13).

<sarcasm>Yes, because no *other* religious structures ever had trinities. </sarcasm> There is no heaven and hell in ancient Egyptian belief. There is just heaven (and getting to it can be quite a terrible adventure) and being eaten by Ammit. There is no devil, there are no angelic beings, no saints or martyrs, no perpetually virginal goddesses and no demigods in ancient Egyptian religion.

(17) Dr. Draper says: "For thirty centuries the Egyptians had been familiar with the conception of a triune God. There was hardly a city of any note without its particular triads. Here it was Amum, Maut, and Khonso; there Osiris, Isis, and Horus" (Intellectual Development, Vol. I, p. 191).

That would be Amun, Mut, and Khonsu. Couldn't you at least spell Their names properly? The ancient Egyptians were familiar with the trinity concept for more than just 3000 years.

(18) Dr. Draper stated: "Views of the Trinity, in accordance with Egyptian tradition, were established. Not only was the adoration of Isis under a new name restored, but even her image standing on the crescent moon reappeared. The well-known effigy of that goddess, with the infant Horus in her arms, has descended to our days in the beautiful artistic creations of the Madonna and Child." (Conflict, p. 48).

Say what? What do you mean She got a new name? Mary and Aset are soooo not the same person. Aset is a mighty goddess. Mary was a human woman elevated to near godhood. While They both love Their children, that's where the similarity ends. Aset would kick the arse of anyone who crossed Her. Somehow, I don't see Mary doing that.

(19) Mrs. Besant believes that Christianity has its main roots in Egypt: "It grew out of Egypt; its gospels came from thence [Alexandria]; its ceremonies were learned there; its Virgin is Isis; its Christ, Osiris and Horus."

Yes. "Borrowing." But then the Christians made all the changes necessary to make their religion its own completely different entity.

(20) There are two stories connected with Horus that is analogous to stories found in the Old Testament. The hiding of the infant Horus in a marsh by his mother undoubtedly parallels the story of the hiding of the infant Moses in a marsh by his mother. When Horus died, Isis implored Ra, the sun, to restore him to life. Ra stopped his ship in mid-heaven and sent down Thoth, the moon, to bring him back to life. The stopping of the sun and moon by Isis recalls the myth of the stopping of the sun and moon by Joshua.

Yes. More "borrowing." It happens.

All in all, Jesus and Heru are *nothing* alike. But thank you, Kevin, for playing our game. DeeDee, tell him what he's won.....

[~Anamorata~]

I see the connection, only in that the Christians have made that connection...just like everything else, they've 'borrowed', and I use that term loosely, and turned to fit their own purposes. One second, they're complaining about being in bondage to the Egyptians, and then, the next second, they're compairing Jesus and Horus...why not? The entire religion is based on 'borrowing, stealing and manipulation.' It's okay to borrow something, as long as you give the credit, where the credit is due...and since it's paganism they've borrowed from, that credit, is long overdue.

And thanks, NeferSesemet...you summed it up quite nicely!!!! :fpraiseyo

[Ahautenites]

**takes a theatrical bow and grins** Thank you. I was bored and I have no life. :p

[~Anamorata~]

**takes a theatrical bow and grins** Thank you. I was bored and I have no life. :p

You're welcome!!! :heartthro :heartthro :hugz:

[Gareth]

Jesus as Horus?
:geez:
I care not to comment due to the one rule MW has.

[lightdragon]

I forgot where i read it .Since it was many years ago. But i thought Horus was in relation to the archangel Michael. Wonder if that is a better relation.

Anyhow NeferSesemet you gave a good argument.

[Ahautenites]

**nods** In temperment, Michael would definitely be a better one to compare with any of the Heru Names.

[Kheti]

Christianity "borrowed" a lot from ancient Egypt. It's not surprising that someone would try to draw a correlation between the divine child Heru-sa-aset and the divine child Jesus. However, Kevin Williams (the author) is trying bend ancient Egyptian myths and legends in a way that supports his theory and he's relying on the reader's lack of knowledge of Egypt to make his claims stick.

Identical Life Experiences

Only if you don't into account that there are a BUNCH of Horuses. This one leads you to believe that Horus the Elder and Horus, the Son of Isis are the same Name of Netjer. They're not. (The One and The Many means that all gods are individuals as well as facets of the great divinity known as Netjer, but in this particular case, we're dealing with individuals.)


Um.... while Aset and Isis aren't the same, I doubt very much that the author knows the difference between the two. And if we take Aset to be Who he means when he says "Isis," then he's wrong again. Aset breathed life into her dead husband's member and had sex with him. So, while Her husband did die before Their marriage was consummated, She was not a virgin when She gave birth to Heru.

Also (I forgot to add this earlier), but there's no way of saying for sure if Heru and Jesus were both born on the 25th of December for two reasons. First off, people aren't sure if Jesus was born on December 25th or January 6th (aka Little Christmas), and second, the Egyptian calendar was nowhere near as static as the current calendar. It depended on the flooding of the Nile, and on whether the calendar was accurate or way off at the time. The ancient Egyptians didn't have leap years, so eventually, their calendar did get off schedule by quite a bit before they reordered the calendar.



I've never heard of this. As far as I knew, Aset gave birth in secret. There was no one present at the birth (except for maybe Her sister Nebt-Het, in some versions).



Nope. Set is a very different god than Typhon, even though Kevin is insisting that They are the same.

And not a blesséd drop of any of these next five numbers applies to any of the Names of Netjer that go by the name Heru (Horus). It's all Christian stuff.



Ancient Egyptians didn't baptize their children or their adults.



Heru (all of Them) is a god. He could do whatever He wanted. He had followers, but not disciples. He didn't perform miracles. He just did what a god can do when a god wants to because He is a god. And He didn't really care that much about feeding the multitude with bread. He would have imparted strength and knowledge and tenacity to His people in order to help them make their own grain and bread. Egyptian gods don't generally give free handouts because it weakens Their people. And as to walking on water: I don't recall reading that he walked on it. I do recall that He changed Himself into a hippo to fight Set *in* the water, but not on top of the water's surface. (But again, He's a god. He can do whatever the hell He wants.)



Nope. Once an ancient Egyptian human died (unlike what could happen with gods), they were dead for good. Wesir (Osiris) would have been major-league ticked off if His son tried to remove any of His subjects from His domain.



Again with the "He's a god, so He can do whatever He wants" answer. I'd have thought transfiguring *Himself* into anything ELSE He wanted to would be more impressive, but hey, whatever floats your boat. For the record, I know of no transfigured mounts in ancient Egyptian myth and legend. (Doesn't mean there aren't any. It just means I haven't read about them.)



Heru is a war & strategies kind of god. He ain't a shepherd in any sense of the word, and He most definitely would be a lion, not a lamb.



Fish are completely abhorent to the Names of Netjer, particularly to Aset, Heru-sa-Aset and Wesir, on account of Wesir's member having gotten EATEN by a fish. I seriously doubt that any ancient Egyptian would ever have referred to Heru as a Fisher because it would be a grievous insult to Him.

He was called the Harpooner, yes, but that was because He harpooned Set while that one was in the form of a hippo or a croccodile. He wasn't harpooning whales or fish. (Unless the fish was also a transfigured Set.)



**rolls eyes** Twit. This statement confuses Heru the Elder and Heru-sa-Aset. Heru-sa-aset has the personal epithet of "Iusa," but He is the son of Wesir, NOT the son of Ptah. Heru the Elder is not called "Iusa" and I don't recall if He is the son of Ptah.



Wanna bet? The only wording I can find that even remotely resembles this is "Heru-pa-khered," which means "Horus-the-child."



Crucifixion was a Roman thing. The Romans didn't come to Egypt until about 4000 years after Heru-sa-Aset had already been born. The only ones Who were buried in a tomb (kind of) and resurrected were Wesir and Sokar.



Yes. As I said, ancient Christians did "borrow" many notions from ancient Egypt. (If anyone doubts me, then ask yourself why prayers are ended with "amen," which is the name of one of the Egyptian gods.)



Gnosticism didn't exist 6000 years ago. Sorry to disappoint you, Kevin.



<sarcasm>Yes, because no *other* religious structures ever had trinities. </sarcasm> There is no heaven and hell in ancient Egyptian belief. There is just heaven (and getting to it can be quite a terrible adventure) and being eaten by Ammit. There is no devil, there are no angelic beings, no saints or martyrs, no perpetually virginal goddesses and no demigods in ancient Egyptian religion.



That would be Amun, Mut, and Khonsu. Couldn't you at least spell Their names properly? The ancient Egyptians were familiar with the trinity concept for more than just 3000 years.



Say what? What do you mean She got a new name? Mary and Aset are soooo not the same person. Aset is a mighty goddess. Mary was a human woman elevated to near godhood. While They both love Their children, that's where the similarity ends. Aset would kick the arse of anyone who crossed Her. Somehow, I don't see Mary doing that.



Yes. "Borrowing." But then the Christians made all the changes necessary to make their religion its own completely different entity.



Yes. More "borrowing." It happens.

All in all, Jesus and Heru are *nothing* alike. But thank you, Kevin, for playing our game. DeeDee, tell him what he's won.....

Em Hotep !
Thanks for pointing out the differences.And I agree they are not anything alike.I just thought it was a wierd article.And wanted to see what others had to say!
Senebty!
Kheti

[Yesod]

Once or twice...it's odd how the Bible refers to us as bad, then uses are Deities in conjunction with theirs...Jesus as Horus? I can see the connection....

But you have to remember, the Bible was written by many people over thousands of years.

Of course there will be conflicts.

[khin666]

Jesus AS Horus (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen046.html)
Very strange article,Has any one ever heard of or read this before?

Yes I have heard of this before. I've also heard that there is a book called the Book of Vivifying the Soul Forever which contains the full story of Horus. I've never been able to obtain a copy either online or offline so the existence of the book is either total b.s. or a heavily guarded occult treasure...........If anyone knows of where to get it be sure to let me know?

_catroll_

[LadyCelt]

I have heard of things being compared and I've seen artowrk parallel each other, more so with older christian icons and artwork. I do not think they are the same deity but it is interesting because Jesus is the son as is Horus and there is one female (Isis/Mary) and Osiris was revived for Horus to be conceived (thinking of Godde as not human but a force/entity I guess.)

[Ninjakitten]

I had this one sent to me recently.

http://www.trueworldcare.com/behonest.htm

It does look very interesting. I don't know enough about the Egyptian gods to know just how connected they are to the Judeo-Christian god(s) or the concept of Jesus (I do believe Jesus actually existed, though). I've also heard parallels between Isis and Sophia.

After having this link sent to me, I had the idea of Horus getting frustrated and saying "okay, people, I'm going to try this again in more modern times, and let's see if you can figure it out this time!" Who knows? Is it possible that the beliefs held in Ancient Egypt were predictions of future events? Maybe the background of Horus wasn't talking about anything seperate at all as to the concept of Jesus coming here and doing his thing, and was a prophecy by the Egyptians? I don't see only one culture having the one and only ultimate truth, which itself holds many truths.

[Ahautenites]

You can think that, if you want. It won't be right (the belief that Heru is Jesus or predicted Jesus), but it's your prerogative. All of the Heru gods (because you people seem to keep missing the fact that there were more than one) seem to be quite happy with Their people, the ancient ones as well as the modern ones.

[ancestral_lee]

Jesus was born in march iirc, for shepherds to be out with thier flocks and have the angel drop in for a cuppa, the sheep had to have been out - which they wouldnt have been were it december. christmas was moved to december by the early church - pope somebody or other did it.

lee

[LadyCelt]

^^^^^^^^ I hvae heard it theorized Jesus was born in Spring, so this really helps to know.

[aluokaloo]

I can understand how it might apply if someone believed that all Gods are one God and all Goddesses are one Goddess, or if someone bvelieved that the true power is nameless genderless, and that humans give the true power names faces and genders. But being a hard polytheists myself, i would say no Horus and Jesus are not the same, and neither is Isis or Aset the same as Virgin Mary. Plus the myths are all mangled. This article is a bunch of crap.

[Ninjakitten]

You can think that, if you want. It won't be right (the belief that Heru is Jesus or predicted Jesus), but it's your prerogative. All of the Heru gods (because you people seem to keep missing the fact that there were more than one) seem to be quite happy with Their people, the ancient ones as well as the modern ones.


It was just a thought, not really a belief or anything.

[Ahautenites]

:)

[LadyCelt]

someone said Isis's favorite flower is the rose in another thread, so now I think of roses and rosaries with the virgin mary interesting

[TarotCanada]

Thomas Harpurs' book "The Pagan Christ" draws 180 parallels between the Mary/Jesus and Isis/Horus stories. Well worth a read and a more scholarly work.

Cheryl

[Heart of Isis]

Ok, I have seen and heard this sort of thing before. (The whole Horus/Isis Mother and Jesus/Mary Mother thing.

The article recently posted is crap as well. It's just another attempt to turn everything into a Christian fundementalist view. Same people that try to claim all music is of the devil unless it comes from some Calvary Church or something. (They even attack Bach whom wrote music for the church that they still play and sing today).

I reject totally the notion of any connection between the Egyptian deities and the xtain diety.
Just look at the picture of who is who.
Horus=innocent, loving child of Isis, representative of peace and respectful of his dad, was rightously vengful in the story of his battle with Seth.etc.
Jesus=bible in one hand, machine gun in the other, jealous, vengful in the vain sense constantly, demanding of his way only,etc.

That's my view and I choose Horus/Isis period, end of story. (I was a fundamental xtian for nearly 8 years and lay-clergy level. Then I woke up one day and saw how much hurt I was causing in the world).

Heart of Isis

[TarotCanada]

I believe if you read my post properly that I used the word "parallels" - there are also other cultures that have similar stories that have similar parallels. Thomas Harpur is an excellent writer - he is packing Christian churches of all denominations over this very book and is a good lecturer as well. Some people do try to build bridges of understanding - it is a rare quality.

Cheryl

[Ninjakitten]

Someone hasn't read much about Jesus, yet claims to be an authority. I used to be like that by only looking at the church and her followers, then I realized how bigoted and self righteous I was by doing that. Most of what Christians do 1) have little to do with the spirit of anything Christ did, and 2) a lot of what Christ was reported to have done has been manipulated by Christians to justify their own hate and actions. Let's not try to repeat history by throwing about stereotypes and coming to uneducated conclusions.

[Heart of Isis]

Someone hasn't read much about Jesus, yet claims to be an authority. I used to be like that by only looking at the church and her followers, then I realized how bigoted and self righteous I was by doing that. Most of what Christians do 1) have little to do with the spirit of anything Christ did, and 2) a lot of what Christ was reported to have done has been manipulated by Christians to justify their own hate and actions. Let's not try to repeat history by throwing about stereotypes and coming to uneducated conclusions.
I see you didn't care for my post. However, I think personal flaming was uncalled for so I will give you this one time. Don't let it happen again. (I've been in wars before and I don't fight fair, but at the same time I really don't care for wars thank you. I much prefer peace and some sort of harmonious co-existence. So let's takes steps to avoid that please).

I already stated that it was my view based on experience. I have the right to my opinion as much as you do.

Sorry, I'm well aware of whom Jesus is supposed to be and I know the xtian fundies don't follow that even remotely. I'm a lot more educated than I care to reveal. I just choose to not see Jesus being who the xtians claim he was and they say he was a spiritual man of peace and the son of their god. (I was kicked out of churches for believing and trying to follow the supposed teachings of peace, kindness, wisdom and compassion of the jesus).

I will never agree to equate the likes of him with anyone from my pantheon.
Period, end of story.

Heart of Isis

[Ninjakitten]

I see you didn't care for my post. However, I think personal flaming was uncalled for so I will give you this one time. Don't let it happen again. (I've been in wars before and I don't fight fair, but at the same time I really don't care for wars thank you. I much prefer peace and some sort of harmonious co-existence. So let's takes steps to avoid that please).

I already stated that it was my view based on experience. I have the right to my opinion as much as you do.

Sorry, I'm well aware of whom Jesus is supposed to be and I know the xtian fundies don't follow that even remotely. I'm a lot more educated than I care to reveal. I just choose to not see Jesus being who the xtians claim he was and they say he was a spiritual man of peace and the son of their god. (I was kicked out of churches for believing and trying to follow the supposed teachings of peace, kindness, wisdom and compassion of the jesus).

I will never agree to equate the likes of him with anyone from my pantheon.
Period, end of story.

Heart of Isis


Given what you just said, and I hope you take no offense in this, but it sounds almost contradictory. I understand you not wanting to equate anything Christian with your pantheon. But you just admitted that you were taught the good things about Jesus and the church didn't care for that. You started to flame the Christ, and, no, I didn't appreciate that. But please don't base the Christ on the idiocy of the Christians of the past (I do sincerely understand why you would, though, because Christians have and do act atrociously at times). They did not represent him, in fact they soiled his name and deeds more than most pagans care to admit that they themselves do.

Oh, and looking at my post, I guess that was kind of personal, and I do apologize for the slightly emotional outburst that became something of a flame, but don't think a threat is something that would cause the apology. I don't care for flame wars either, and prefer this to both say civil and respectful, and I simply found your previous post disrespectful, hence the slight emotion.

[Adam213]

Crucifixion was a Roman thing. The Romans didn't come to Egypt until about 4000 years after Heru-sa-Aset had already been born. The only ones Who were buried in a tomb (kind of) and resurrected were Wesir and Sokar.



That is actually wrong. Crucifixion was a practice thar originated in Persia, and traveled to Rome through Mesopotamia. Although it is unlikely the the Egyptians knew about it before the Persian invasion.

[Heart of Isis]

Given what you just said, and I hope you take no offense in this, but it sounds almost contradictory. I understand you not wanting to equate anything Christian with your pantheon. But you just admitted that you were taught the good things about Jesus and the church didn't care for that. You started to flame the Christ, and, no, I didn't appreciate that. But please don't base the Christ on the idiocy of the Christians of the past (I do sincerely understand why you would, though, because Christians have and do act atrociously at times). They did not represent him, in fact they soiled his name and deeds more than most pagans care to admit that they themselves do.

Oh, and looking at my post, I guess that was kind of personal, and I do apologize for the slightly emotional outburst that became something of a flame, but don't think a threat is something that would cause the apology. I don't care for flame wars either, and prefer this to both say civil and respectful, and I simply found your previous post disrespectful, hence the slight emotion.
There is no contradiction I can see. Seeing as how I taught myself the "good things" about "the christ". The church never taught me those things. They may have glossed over it a time or two and I caught it and persued it deeper. This is what led to me finally being kicked out after I already decided to leave anyway. (There was something that happened just before I decided to leave and got kicked out that had to do with saving someone's life in the literal sense. That event changed my life completely). I guess it was because I never agreed to be labodomised to turn off my brain and let them wash it completely. It was clear that the leadership didn't dig that about me and finally got fed up with me.
Your right about me starting to flame the christ. We really never got on. Even though I was doing his type of work as you and others claim to be what he was really about. I guess I just could never work with him. He was a walking contradiction to me, but that is in part due to what I consistantly saw his so-called followers do and say. (I was always doing damage control trying to clean up their messes). As I really don't get on with the christ I will tend to flame him any chance I get. It's true that I feel the need to do so for the reasons you stated or were thinking. I admit that freely.
Yes, I know other pagans who do respect the christ. I just can't bring myself to do that even today what ever I may know. That being said, I was not threatening you, but I know how you could have perceived it that way. So I do apologize for that bit of it since we both want the same thing ultimately. So in future I will try to word my distaste a little better should the need to do so arise again.
Also, I will do this. Can you point me to any evidence not based on any faith that the christ is whom you (and others) claim him to be. (Books, scientific articles, what have you). If you can do that I will look at it. I always follow through on that. Perhaps it will ease my sensitivity to taking offense myself or what have you. At the least perhaps it may allow me to let those whom choose to believe that he was whom you say he was have their belief without me feeling like they are trying to push him into my life or something. I know the bit about how he was born around March or June (the jury still seems to be out on those two times). Though I also hear quite a bit about how the christ supposedly traveled to India and instead of trying to christianize everyone actually took to learning there and tried to pass that education on back at his home town and what have you. I'd like to read up on any evidence of that.

Heart of Isis

[Cynyr]

Horus=innocent, loving child of Isis, representative of peace and respectful of his dad, was rightously vengful in the story of his battle with Seth.etc.
Jesus=bible in one hand, machine gun in the other, jealous, vengful in the vain sense constantly, demanding of his way only,etc.

That's my view and I choose Horus/Isis period, end of story. (I was a fundamental xtian for nearly 8 years and lay-clergy level. Then I woke up one day and saw how much hurt I was causing in the world).

Heart of Isis

Dude!! The Jesus description you just hotly pecked into here is totally the description of the jealous and vengeful "Yahweh" of the Old Testament not Jesus of the New T. at all. Jesus did not hold a Bible - he was a Jew who abided by the Law. How can you honestly say Jesus was "vengful (sic) in the vain sense constantly..."? There's no way you could possibly back this statement up.
:graduate:

[Heart of Isis]

Old testament or New testament, it doesn't matter. That has almost nothing to do with it.
Just look at the teachings of the average fundie churches actions and words and of his followers from any and all walks of life and you tell me.
(True, mostly based on my experience and sight from within that realm back in the day. Nothing has changed for the better sadly).
I will look into whatever I wish on my terms. I just got through asking Ninjakitten for references and materials and I will follow through.

We both have the right to our freedom of speech and beliefs. So let's agree to disagree and you go on believing what you believe and I will go on believing what I believe. With neither personal truth being any better then or above the other. Agreed?

HOI

[Ninjakitten]

Unfortunately, I can only point you towards the Bible (which I know was corrupted by Christians throughout history) and that there were some contradictions in a few things he did and said that just don't jive with the majority of what's written in there as to what he did and said. I am also looking into the Apocrypha right now, which, of course, are early Christian writings that were condemned by the church. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with Christianity and Christians, and at this point I'm just going to go with the "agree to disagree" philosophy as well. Rest assured that I would not flame any of your gods or those who speak on their behalf. I can only talk about my personal encounters with Christ and the Diety, and they were good and, at least for now, pointed me in the direction of the Christ, and that I see good things come from people who actually have the Christ in their hearts. I'm sorry I can't give you more right now, as it's hard to give you any scientific evidence (like I normally would) on things I believe in. It's nearly impossible to do with things of faith, which is why they call it faith. The things I experienced turned me overnight turned me in the direction of Christianity, and this is from being staunchly opposed to Christianity and Christians to a point of contempt, and I know it was from the Diety and it told me to "look into the one place I was unwilling to look" for spirituality.

[Heart of Isis]

Unfortunately, I can only point you towards the Bible (which I know was corrupted by Christians throughout history) and that there were some contradictions in a few things he did and said that just don't jive with the majority of what's written in there as to what he did and said. I am also looking into the Apocrypha right now, which, of course, are early Christian writings that were condemned by the church. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with Christianity and Christians, and at this point I'm just going to go with the "agree to disagree" philosophy as well. Rest assured that I would not flame any of your gods or those who speak on their behalf. I can only talk about my personal encounters with Christ and the Diety, and they were good and, at least for now, pointed me in the direction of the Christ, and that I see good things come from people who actually have the Christ in their hearts. I'm sorry I can't give you more right now, as it's hard to give you any scientific evidence (like I normally would) on things I believe in. It's nearly impossible to do with things of faith, which is why they call it faith. The things I experienced turned me overnight turned me in the direction of Christianity, and this is from being staunchly opposed to Christianity and Christians to a point of contempt, and I know it was from the Diety and it told me to "look into the one place I was unwilling to look" for spirituality.
Ok, understood and agreed. Yes, being the flawed book or source that the bible is, it wouldn't be my first choice either. Thank you for acknowledging that. That speaks well of you.
Hmm, the apocrypha does sound interesting.

Yeah, I guess we do come from different sides of the planet. Our experiences are different.
Thank you for understanding what you do and for being frank and intellectually honest. I do appreciate it.
I guess the one thing I can say is that I can be somewhat thankful for my experience (bad as it was), because it led me (albeit mysteriously) to my current path which is without any doubt the right path for me as I feel a true and long time connection with my chosen deities. (I even felt this while I was a fundie christian, but was afraid to acknowledge it.....gee, I think that was obvious). I can almost laugh at that.

Perhaps we may chat again as you get into the Apocrypha. I'd be interested to learn about it even if just to see what it was that made the church so upset.

HOI

[LadyCelt]

no offense but u yeah machine guns weren't around over 2,000 years ago that I know of ;)


vain, jealous, etc, um is that what you call dying through crucifixtion? which is not exactly an easy, fun way to die.


sad to see attacks on a deity and faith like this here. part of why I like this board is the void of this. that's why I don't like the Christian (not xtian by the way, I do find that disrespectful of Christ) boards I am on anymore.

I feel we should respect one another and faiths here.

[Ahautenites]

I agree. And I've sent a Report to that effect. Play nicely, children, or the Site God will part the orange-y/brown sea and drown us all.

[Heart of Isis]

Ok, Come on folks, this is so over.

HOI

[Cynyr]

Old testament or New testament, it doesn't matter. That has almost nothing to do with it.
Just look at the teachings of the average fundie churches actions and words and of his followers from any and all walks of life and you tell me.
(True, mostly based on my experience and sight from within that realm back in the day. Nothing has changed for the better sadly).
I will look into whatever I wish on my terms. I just got through asking Ninjakitten for references and materials and I will follow through.

We both have the right to our freedom of speech and beliefs. So let's agree to disagree and you go on believing what you believe and I will go on believing what I believe. With neither personal truth being any better then or above the other. Agreed?

HOI

HOI,

Does freedom of speech not come with some responsibility for accuracy though? Does freedom of speech mean you can say just any damn thing you want to and it ought to be taken as truth just because you have this freedom to spout off as you please. How about responsibility with this "Freedom" I find so tiresome being reminded of it constantly.

All I sense from you is an extreme and irrational bitterness based on B.S. and it is fallacious and delusive - Jesus' followers are dogmatic ass-holes so therefore, Jesus is a dogmatic ass-hole too! You say you have been in clergy for 7 years. I was in it for over 20. And while I have my doubts as to who Jesus Christ was according to what has been taught 'of' him; if one just reads what he supposedly said, how can anyone find him a despot or a radical? Sure, according to the established Law of the day Jesus was a radical, but if his teachings were followed, there would indeed be more love, more tolerance of mankind by mankind - if his teachings were followed - I re-iterate.

The ones you have to look out for are those little Ceasars behind the podium elected to lead the flock that almost always cast dispersions on anyone that does not follow their dogma, as you know. These little Ceasars are also very politically minded and can use any verse out of context to establish an ideal.

The flock is taught, not by the words of Jesus, but mostly by the writings of Paul, to have nothing to do with anyone who does not believe that Jesus is Lord. And, in addition to that, the flock of the church is kept subjugated and in bond and fear by a superstitious belief in eternal hell - as you know.

Your comparison of the O.T. and the N.T. as not mattering and having nothing to do with it is just plain wrong. Of course it matters a lot. You have the old covenant of judgement and damnation - then you have the new covenant of forgiveness by grace. The two are diametrically opposed and is the most important tenant of Christianity.

I left the path of Christianity because it was no longer enough for me to have faith and believe. I need to 'know', not 'believe'. There is a difference. I also left it because I was not being true to myself. There was no way I could live up to the sanctimonious teachings of the "Church" and walk the path of righteousness without being judgemental and also a hypocrit. (please note: I said teachings of the 'church' and not teachings of Jesus) But that is my evaluation of me, not others. Another reason is I learned over the years that much of the lore surrounding Jesus is borrowed from old Pagan mythology. There are several parrallels in Pagan mythology with Christian mythology.

If you want a debate at least keep it honest and not get so emotionally charged because coming off like a hateful hot-head will only serve to kill your credibility and no one will take you seriously and evenutally just put you in their ignore list as a flamer.

Live long and prosper HOI. :graduate:

[LadyCelt]

^^^^^^^^ well said. And, not all of us are dogmatic bwords or aholes. I don't really like dogma, thought he ovie looks good :)


Jesus was a radical, a rebel, but for good reasons. Martin Luther King Jr was a radical and rebel, but he was very important and had good things to say.

There are many things in the "church" I do not agree with, but they do not reflect Jesus or the Lord to me. I don't consider dying by curcifixion selfish or being a jerk.

I would like to say don't confuse Christianity with Christ. They are not always the same.

[Heart of Isis]

It's a risk I'm willing to take. However, I found a rather profound statement in your recent post. That was the bit about how or why you left the church for reason of not only the little Cesars....but,
"I left the path of Christianity because it was no longer enough for me to have faith and believe. I need to 'know', not 'believe'. There is a difference. I also left it because I was not being true to myself. There was no way I could live up to the sanctimonious teachings of the "Church" and walk the path of righteousness without being judgemental and also a hypocrit."

What gave me pause is that these are part of the same decisive factors that led me to leave (and susiquintly be ex-communicated....so what). Of course, it was deeper than that for me personally. I also felt like a fish out of water. I was raised Lutheran then went fundamental after a long hiatus. (Undoubtedly my first mistake. Any belief system gone fundie is not good).
I'm told by me mum who is now a fundie (sadly), that when I was very young I had a "fascination" with the Egyptian dieties. (In her words "false gods").
I would only find out later after going through the afore mentioned religions and a period of agnositicism and atheism that I was presented with irrefutable evidence of my true path. So it was right back to Egypt for me, if you will. (Funny how things like that happen).

(please note: I said teachings of the 'church' and not teachings of Jesus) But that is my evaluation of me, not others. Another reason is I learned over the years that much of the lore surrounding Jesus is borrowed from old Pagan mythology. There are several parrallels in Pagan mythology with Christian mythology.

I've heard this before. While I would not agree that there are parrallels in Pagan mythology with Christian mythology. I would say that there are things the the Christians stole or borrowed from Pagan mythology and twisted to mean the opposite and/or to advance and force thier own agenda. Thus leading to the "parrallels" one may seem to draw today in certain areas. The reason I say all that is because "parrallels" suggest co-evolvement (evolving at the same time), were as everybody knows that Christianity is a fairly new religion/mythology by scientific standards compared to Pagan mythology. So I just wanted to point that out. (Doesn't change much in this context, but it's worth noting).
I do hear about the Jesus/India/Hindu/whatever connection now and again and I would be interested in looking at that if I knew where the credible resources on that were. (That may lead to some new thoughts for all of us).

I do have a hard time with Christianity these days, I admit that. It is undoubtedly at least in part to the fact that I was severly hurt by the people whom profess belief in it which in turn gave it a very bad name to me as you have correctly surmised. (I was even physcally beat up once by church-going people for saving a person's life because she was not a Christian and I was at the time. This happened a week after the following incident. I saw this girl getting beat on and kicked by some church people and I couldn't take it, so like a fool I dove in to get her away to safety and succeeded. Took her to a friend's apartment, she was pretty beat up and I tended her wounds then took her to her home. I'll never forget that day. In fact, it so happened that she was a Wiccan as I later found out. We ended up becoming friends for a time even though we didn't share anything in common. It was soon after that when I got as far away from the church/Christianity as possible).

As far as my crediblity is concerned: I don't care that much about it seeing as how my family ruined it for me early on anyway. (I know that sounds strange and it's not that I am shirking off my responsibilities, but they did stuff and attached me to it while I knew nothing about it. So I found myself apologizing in front of large numbers of people for stuff that was not mine to own. That's a lot to carry along with one's own stuff. Thus ever since I have always had the need to prove myself over and over. I have finally gotten tired of that, so I no longer care that much about my credibility for now).

I don't take offense at most of what you said so it's ok. I hope you now know more of where I'm coming from and I think you do. While we will never agree, as I stated earlier in future I will choose the words I use to describe my distaste more carefully. Who knows, it may yet lead to interesting conversation anyway.

HOI

Ok, I've got to go on to other things now. Spent far too much time on this.

[LadyCelt]

I don't get excommunication, unless really bad things that truly are evil happens But, still I always found christ and Christianity to be about forgiveness if a person is truly sorry, so excommunication makes no sense. I was always into fairytales growing up, so maybe I did have a fascination with witches lol.


I find Pandora's box to paraellel Adam and Eve and "the fall" espeically with blaing the lady.

[Ninjakitten]

Guys, leave Heart of Isis alone, please! I think Heart explained himself sufficiently, and has issues he "needs" to solve in his own time. I don't see a need to persue this any more. Let's get back on topic because I really don't want to see this thread closed over something he already said that we wanted to drop!

Now back on topic:

Tell the truth, this thread makes me wish I was able to finish the religions class I started. It was going through the "evolution" if you will of the various religions and where various concepts came from. I wouldn't be suprised if the ancient Hebrews "learned something" from the Egyptians during their slavery, and that some Egyptian things carried over at least to Judaism, even if it wasn't much. Since Christianity (early on) was influenced by Judaism, it makes me wonder how much the Egyptians influenced the Hebrews. I am skeptical of the Jesus/Horus connection, but I am still curious to see the real scholarship behind it.

[Heart of Isis]

Guys, leave Heart of Isis alone, please! I think Heart explained himself sufficiently, and has issues he "needs" to solve in his own time. I don't see a need to persue this any more. Let's get back on topic because I really don't want to see this thread closed over something he already said that we wanted to drop!

Now back on topic:

Tell the truth, this thread makes me wish I was able to finish the religions class I started. It was going through the "evolution" if you will of the various religions and where various concepts came from. I wouldn't be suprised if the ancient Hebrews "learned something" from the Egyptians during their slavery, and that some Egyptian things carried over at least to Judaism, even if it wasn't much. Since Christianity (early on) was influenced by Judaism, it makes me wonder how much the Egyptians influenced the Hebrews. I am skeptical of the Jesus/Horus connection, but I am still curious to see the real scholarship behind it.
Thank you Ninjakitten. I truely appreciated that. While I wouldn't say "needs" to resolve, but I might "want" to resolve. It's entirely up to me, is it not?
Yes, it's very important that I work things out in my own way, at my own pace, in my own time just as with every one of us humans.

By the by, not to open up another can of worms, but I just thought to mention it. Did you know that they have recently uncovered evidence that the Hebrews "may" not have been slaves of the Egyptians for the most part as we have once believed?
I have seen several recent articles (wish I kept them so you could look at them for your interest, but I didn't) and a few recent documentaries with a world renouned archeologist/Egyptologist that addresses this issue.
I found it very interesting myself.

Thanks again Ninjakitten

Peace,

Heart of Isis

[Ninjakitten]

Thank you Ninjakitten. I truely appreciated that. While I wouldn't say "needs" to resolve, but I might "want" to resolve. It's entirely up to me, is it not?
Yes, it's very important that I work things out in my own way, at my own pace, in my own time just as with every one of us humans.

By the by, not to open up another can of worms, but I just thought to mention it. Did you know that they have recently uncovered evidence that the Hebrews "may" not have been slaves of the Egyptians for the most part as we have once believed?
I have seen several recent articles (wish I kept them so you could look at them for your interest, but I didn't) and a few recent documentaries with a world renouned archeologist/Egyptologist that addresses this issue.
I found it very interesting myself.

Thanks again Ninjakitten

Peace,

Heart of Isis


Really?! I'll have to look into that. That's really interesting.

Oh, and I put "needs" in quotes because I couldn't really figure out the best word to put there. :)