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Kaylara
March 6th, 2001, 12:13 PM
Coercive patriotism

http://www.jewishworldreview.com -- PATRIOTISM is the last refuge of the scoundrel, it has been said, and never was that more true than when politicians intrude. Even the most genuine love of country is perverted by government attempts to force unwilling citizens to engage in public displays of national affection.


Virginia's Fairfax County, home to many federal employees, has long featured a moderate Republicanism at odds with the more conservative variant dominant farther south. But it is a Fairfax Republican, state Sen. Warren Barry, who has embarked on a crusade to make Virginia schoolchildren spout the Pledge of Allegiance - or else.


Barry has proposed to mandate that kids say the Pledge of Allegiance, and suspend those who refuse. He would allow an exception for students with specific philosophical or religious objections. But, then, he has no alternative, since the First Amendment of the Constitution requires no less.


Barry says he wants to hit students who "just don't feel like saying it." They offend his sense of right and wrong, he told the Washington Times.


The Pledge has long been a favorite patriotic symbol. And, state and local governments were not always sensitive to minority sentiments.


For instance, Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted even though their faith forbids them to say the pledge; the U.S. Supreme Court first dismissed their pleas for relief. Only in a second case did the Court finally decide that a free society could not properly require a free people to verbalize a belief they did not share.


Still, then-Vice President George Bush used the issue in 1988 to help defeat Massachusetts Gov. Michael Dukakis. No one could seriously argue that Dukakis wasn't patriotic, but the fact that he didn't want to force his state's teachers to say the pledge was viewed as somehow suspect.


Similar in nature are concerns about flag burning. A cretin occasionally destroys a flag and politicians promise to make it illegal. After the Supreme Court ruled that flag burning was political speech protected by the First Amendment, legislators rushed to propose amending the Constitution.


They have failed to do so only because some conservatives, such as Kentucky's Republican Sen. Mitch McConnell, put fidelity to the Constitution and its principles ahead of political expediency. And, because the American people have sensibly decided that flag burning is a nonissue.


Such common sense hasn't worked its way down to Barry in Richmond, however. The Senate quickly passed his bill, though it then ran into some resistance in the Statehouse.


Barry wanted to prescribe the punishment of students who refused to do as told. When the House Education Committee voted to let local school boards decide how to enforce the law, Barry temporarily withdrew his bill.


Why, he raged, his legislation had been watered down by a committee of "spineless pinkos." To let communities set the standards would mean "the school board would immediately have parents at their doorstep asking them to water it down." So much for the idea of local autonomy.


Heck, if saying the Pledge of Allegiance is so important, why just suspend students if they don't join in? Kick 'em out of school. Fine them. Toss them in jail for a few days.


The question is, what is so important about the pledge?


Barry says, "There are certain principles like patriotism that I don't think there is any way to compromise." True enough, but that argues for serious, thoughtful, well-argued efforts to foster genuine patriotism. Not punishments designed to elicit empty, formalist proclamations of patriotism.


Indeed, presumably for Barry's purposes, it isn't enough to simply say the Pledge of Allegiance. One should say it with feeling and emotion. The words should burst forth. A hand should be over the heart - or perhaps raised in adoration toward the flag.


Thus, if Barry is serious, he should propose a range of offenses and punishments. Failure to say the Pledge of Allegiance with appropriate hand motions: warning letter. Failure to say the pledge with enthusiasm: suspension. Failure to say the pledge: expulsion. Mocking those who say the pledge: jail. The best argument for saying the Pledge of Allegiance comes from the freedom not to do so. What makes America great is not a willingness to demand obedience to every arbitrary dictate advanced by one government official or another. What makes America great is the recognition that the most fundamental values of faith and patriotism cannot and must not be coerced.


There's good reason for Americans to be patriotic. There's good reason to transmit that value to young people. But forcing students to say the Pledge of Allegiance, or engage in any other such formalistic expression, is an insult to the patriots who have fought so long and so hard to keep America free.

From: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/bandow.html

Kaylara

Lilu
March 6th, 2001, 01:41 PM
I've been having a BAD DAY! **L** So this has my goat going Kaylara, hehehe. Thanks for the posting, interesting!

What my question is, what about children who are not *wholly* American?

Most of you probably will have figured out by now, that I'm an Australian, married to an American. We live in America, but by LAW any child of ours will have dual citizenship to both countries.

Now, I believe (not sure) that when a child reaches the age of 18, Australia requires you to choose your citizenship. So I can't imagine that "demanding" patriotism is going to make my child any more likely to choose America over Australia hehhee

But anyway, what I want to know is if there are provisions by this Barry guy to have dual citizens say BOTH pledges of allegience if they want to? *grin* I know, I'm a shit-stirrer, but it's very important to me that my children be raised BOTH American and Australian, so saying one pledge of allegience (or country's national anthem) over the other doesn't seem too fair. You know?

hehehehe I'm ranting. It's just a subject that gets to me. In my opinion, one shouldn't have to be FORCED to pledge allegiance to a country they don't respect, or simply don't want to.

(Not that I'm implying that people who don't say it don't respect their country, but you know what I mean... I hope LOL)

Lilu

Niamh
March 6th, 2001, 03:22 PM
Crazy. It reminds me of an incident at a graduation at a Maryland high school in 1999. The Lord's Prayer was written into the program for the graduation, and a student protested this, rightly so according to law. He was told that the prayer would not be said, although the entire school (principal, teachers included) decided that they would just get up and say it anyhow!
The studen, enraged at this, got up and walked out of the ceremony. He was not allowed back in and was taken away in a police car! Imagine that!
I should go dig up a copy of the article so I get my facts straight... I wouldn't want to be unpatriotic!

Yvonne Belisle
March 6th, 2001, 04:08 PM
For a very long time I would not say the pledge because it said "one nation under God" If you think about it requiring people to say the pledge is a violation of the Constitution on 3 levels. Church and state, and freedom of speech, freedom of religion as well. It needs to come from the heart not be something that is forced. I joined the Military at 17 because I believe in this country and what it stands for but you can't force that. I feel that if you force people to say it then it will loose it's meaning but that's just my opinion.

richardcranium
March 6th, 2001, 04:15 PM
If the pledge did not have such religious undertones I would have no problem saying it. I love my country but I hate the way my country tries to force it's religions on me. Maybe it should be rewritten to not have any type of god involved.

BrightStar
March 6th, 2001, 06:15 PM
Hi all!
The "One nation under God" part of the pledge was a later addition,I think it was added during Eisenhower's terms,1950s.Forced shows of patriotism really put me off.
Here in Oklahoma,there always throwing in stuff like that.Public prayers are a big thing,and they try to put one in whenever people aren't looking.I've never put up with it.I tend to fidget,or just go on talking to a friend.People give you really awful looks,but I don't want to pray to their God at a football game.
I also sit during The Star Spangled Banner.I just don't like the song and I won't do a public show of patriotism just to go along.I do love this country,but I'm not very nationalistic.The Star Spangled Banner,to me,is just too warlike.I've always thought they should use America The Beautiful,it does mention God,but it's more in tune with what I like about my country.Spacious skies,amber grain,purple mountains,the plains,brotherhood(well sisterhood would work too),shining seas.I do get attacked as a pinko occasionally.But I just tell 'em I'm a Red,kinda throws them.
Peace and Love
BrightStar

Lady Tana
March 6th, 2001, 07:41 PM
ahh... the 'one nation under God' thing

my childrens teachers and i have had many conferences about this....

they both say it 'one nation under the Gods' and it drives them nuts!!
i have been told to 'teach them the correct way to say it' with my answer being that that is the 'correct' way for me and my children... but to no avail... new teacher every year... same fight every year...

Niamh
March 7th, 2001, 05:02 PM
I find it hard to believe that teachers in a metro area in this day in age would be so small minded! But I really shouldn't. That was my initial reaction. People are like that everywhere, and I don't have children, but I can only imagine what things will be like when I do. I have many teachers in my family and, sadly, I think they would all react as the teachers of Lady Tana's children. Wow, what a slap in the face! Although there was that one time at some sort of family function when an Irish Blessing was being said and I inserted "Lady" for "lord" and "her" for "his." My mother gave me a sideways glance but didn't say anything. Some of you might know it:
"May the road rise up to meet you,
the wind be always at your back
the sun shine warm upon your face
the rains fall soft upon your fields
And, until we meet again,
May the Lady (Lord) always hold you
in the hollow of Her (His) hand.
I like the sentiment. I just changs things to suit me!

Lilu
March 8th, 2001, 09:09 PM
I like that Irish blessing too Niamh.

I have used the "amended" version too.

Another one I tend to change about is the "Footprints" story, you probably know it ... walking along the beach with God/dess... one set of footprints... God/dess carrying you. hehehe I LOVE that passage, but I like to change it around to the pagan undertones...

BB
Lilu

Niamh
March 8th, 2001, 09:37 PM
Footprints IS one of my favorites, Lilu! I've used the ammended version as well. I just wish they'd print those pretty blank journals with the ammended version! :)

gunner
March 8th, 2001, 10:11 PM
while i am a republican (i did warn you i was a strange cat for this group, didn't i?) i disagree most strongly with mr. barry. patriotism is not something that can be created by legislative fiat and if there is no feeling there then all the mumbled rituals and incantations in the world will not make it exist. we know about rituals and incantations i'm certain. i salute the flag but that salute is voluntary on my part, in respect for the ideals it stands for however flawed the men who claim to carry out those ideals. if some "super patriot" tells me i "had better" salute the flag he risks a full set of lumps. (for that matter when in canada i salute their flag as a matter of respect, as a guest in their country.) mr. barry needs to learn that real patriotism grows from the heart and to earn it a country must be worthy of its people.
"gunner"

Yvonne Belisle
March 10th, 2001, 12:07 AM
Very well said Gunner!

eaglewolf
March 11th, 2001, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by BrightStar
...I also sit during The Star Spangled Banner.I just don't like the song and I won't do a public show of patriotism just to go along.I do love this country,but I'm not very nationalistic.The Star Spangled Banner,to me,is just too warlike...

I see it more as a memorial for those who died for this country, as needless as it may have been, to give us the freedom, as limited as it may be, which we have today.

I stand for the Star Spangled Banner out of respect for those who gave all. But that's just me...

~ew, super-patriot~

;)

bluecat
March 11th, 2001, 11:41 PM
During one of my re-enlistments someone actually paid attention when I said "affirm" instead of swearing to god. The person who did the re-enlistment was my OIC at the time, she was aware of my beliefs (she was a former Nun, nice Irish-Catholic Lass) and respected me for what I believed. The Capt and I would often have little talks in her office over coffee, because she knew I was against many of the things that we prosecuted people for. During one of those conversations I told her that as long as these folks sign on the line they are subject to the code; but it was up to us as to how we enforced the code, by the letter of the law or the spirit of the law.

But yes, I did and still do love my country and know that through time we have had good and bad folks at the top, as well as many who get mixed reviews. I have many friends who shed their blood so we can sit here and do this.

I bent many, many rules while carrying out my job as an NCO and "Officer of the Court." The "Officer of the Court" thing is what many folks in my position were, regardless of our rank. Yes, for all of you military types, I was a Legal-Beagle (Paralegal ... had to go to a special school beyond the normal Army legal clerk school and stuff for that ) and before that I was a Spook and before that a Grunt (81mm "Plumber").

So much for nostalgia.

BlueCat

eaglewolf
March 11th, 2001, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by bluecat
Yes, for all of you military types, I was a Legal-Beagle (Paralegal)

LoL, I have not heard that term for some time.

I was an MP and dealt with "that type" about once per week (at least whenever my name came up on the docket)...

...not really topic related, just reminiscing...

~ew

bluecat
March 11th, 2001, 11:59 PM
Then you know what someone like me may have been doing with JDST folks, I was a non-weaponed team member/advisor (but I did wear a VEST!)

BlueCat

eaglewolf
March 12th, 2001, 12:39 AM
That whole ACTD thing was after my time...

...but the Joint Decision folks I have met since then do not appear to need advisors, at least that is what they seem to think... ;)

~ew

eaglewolf
March 12th, 2001, 12:57 AM
Well, now that I know you were talking about Drug Surpression and not Joint Decision Support, it makes more sense... ;)

~ew