Eeeek! I'm confused! Do I have to take them literally?

[SnowWhite]

Hi all,

I've been Pagan for a while now and am still working on finding my own path, though I am leaning towards Wicca.

My problem with this is the God and Goddess. Now, you see, I have always been a very rational person. There has to be very good, solid reasoning behind something for me to believe it. Henceforth, my rejection of Christianity. I know my statement sounds a bit contradictory, but the ideas of Paganism really work for me.

So, my question is, do I have to take the God and Goddess literally to be Wiccan? Do they have to be all knowing, omnipotent beings? Must I actually chose one with a name?? I really respect nature, and mother Earth, kind of a goddess in herself, and the universe and the cosmos as a sort of God. Does that work?

Please help~! :foh:
Sophia

[Suzy-Anne]

In my opinion you shouldn't have to take them literally. One of my friends found them to be the parents of the gods. So thats up to you. Some others may disagree with you on that though.

[Toby Stimpson]

One of the greater things about Paganism is it's versatility. Paganism does not necessairly have to accept a God/Goddess archetype. There are traditions in the east that accept moral and natural laws over sp[ecific details of Gods. Wicca however, in my opinion however, seems to have created an egotistic view that it is the in all and end all. Rememebr, Wicca is primarily reconstructionalist...it tends to distort things soemtimes and to oversimplify things inorder to gain followers (some traditions, not all). Paganism as a whole is more fluidic, spirituality is much more fluidic. An example, Buddhism is athiestic...it honours no major deities as being supreme...and yet it is one of the most psiritual religions on the earth right now. You do not need to accept a God if you do not need one right now...the majority of us who do accept Gods still need to learn lessons or worldviews through that God. Perhaps you are now entering your atheistic life? It has been a thought of mine that all souls must live through several forms of lives: religious, athiest, violent, peaceful...etc,. in order to learn lessons the other lifestyles would not show. Accept whjat you wish, but! a warning, respect all things you accept, and do not mesh things that normally would not go together...in case you make a mistake. I wish you blessings! Namaste

Tobias

[Phaedra B]

So, my question is, do I have to take the God and Goddess literally to be Wiccan? Do they have to be all knowing, omnipotent beings? Must I actually chose one with a name?? I really respect nature, and mother Earth, kind of a goddess in herself, and the universe and the cosmos as a sort of God. Does that work? An old sweetie of mine used to say :

It is all true
It is all metaphor
There is always more.

(He may still say it. I wouldn't know; he isn't speaking to me these days.)

You don't have to decide what the Gods are. You can "believe" in them -- sometimes -- or think they are metaphors, sometimes. Just get your head in an appropriate space at the appropriate time. Crowley used to say (I know he doesn't say it any more; he's dead) one could be a skeptic outside the circle, but one should be a believer within it.

Do they have to be all knowing, omnipotent beings? By the Gods, NO!

Pagan Deities are not omni anything. They're more like specialists -- Gods of light, Gods of Dark, Goddesses of Earth, of Sea, etc.

[Pure Ahimsa]

Well, the Old Ones knew that their was a one supreme force which is everything. They also saw opposites. They saw a hill then a valley, they saw light and dark, they saw male and female, but they also saw that things could not be TOTAL opposites, that everybody has "some of each thing". So they told that the Final Force had two sides, opposites yet not complete opposites, which act as Yin and Yang.
So you could say a Hill represents the Horned One and a valley as the Goddess, in a way.
Also, they said that all Goddesses were one Goddess and all Gods were one God, so everything is interconnected and everything is one. That Goddesses and Gods just represneted different aspects of existence. Like a God of Rain IS rain, a Goddess of Cats IS the whole of cats. So you do not have to take it literally, in a way.
Blessed Be
Yannai
tigerlad

[Phaedra B]

So you could say a Hill represents the Horned One and a valley as the Goddess, in a way. <snip>
That Goddesses and Gods just represneted different aspects of existence. Like a God of Rain IS rain, a Goddess of Cats IS the whole of cats. So you do not have to take it literally, in a way. A reasonable way to look at it. One could say, for example, that we anthropomorphise the consellation of energy representing wine and revelry and name it Bacchus.

Well, the Old Ones knew that their was a one supreme force which is everything. They also saw opposites. They saw a hill then a valley, they saw light and dark, they saw male and female, but they also saw that things could not be TOTAL opposites, that everybody has "some of each thing". So they told that the Final Force had two sides, opposites yet not complete opposites, which act as Yin and Yang.<snip>

Also, they said that all Goddesses were one Goddess and all Gods were one God, so everything is interconnected and everything is one. "They"? "Old Ones"? To whom exactly are you refering? Our paleopagan ancestors were far from uniform in their perceptions of the Gods.

The only primary example that comes to mind of a "one Goddess all Goddesses" would be the late Greco-Egyptian cult of Isis, which was a very syncretic mix of religious ideas from all over the Classical world. In the 19th and 20th century, the idea was picked up by the Theosophists, and later popularized by the influential occult writer Dion Fortune. This most certainly influenced Gerald Gardner and other founders of modern Wicca.

It's good you're taking time to think about these things.

[Pure Ahimsa]

The Old Ones as in the Druids of the Celtic Society, my ancestors of my moms side, they did look at things as one whole, though most people did concentrate on the Gods as individual powers.

[misschief]

if you need a 'good, solid reason' for things... anything magical probably isn't for you.

[Phaedra B]

The Old Ones as in the Druids of the Celtic Society, my ancestors of my moms side, they did look at things as one whole, though most people did concentrate on the Gods as individual powers. Well, seeing as the Archdruid of North America :fpraise: (hi, Isaac!) is sitting across the room at the other computer, I asked him about this.

The idea that the Druids were "really" monotheists is an invention of the 18th century Druid revivalists, who were, of course, Christians. There is no historical evidence that the Druids (who comprised the priest/scholar class in Celtic societies) believed that "all Gods were one God" in any sense at all.

Unfortunately, much of what is "common knowledge" about what paleopagan religions believed has been garbled badly by 1500 years of Christian scholarship, that is, scholarship with an agenda.

[Windsmith]

Hi all,

I've been Pagan for a while now and am still working on finding my own path, though I am leaning towards Wicca.

My problem with this is the God and Goddess. Now, you see, I have always been a very rational person. There has to be very good, solid reasoning behind something for me to believe it. Henceforth, my rejection of Christianity. I know my statement sounds a bit contradictory, but the ideas of Paganism really work for me.

So, my question is, do I have to take the God and Goddess literally to be Wiccan? Do they have to be all knowing, omnipotent beings? Must I actually chose one with a name?? I really respect nature, and mother Earth, kind of a goddess in herself, and the universe and the cosmos as a sort of God. Does that work?

Please help~! :foh:
Sophia

I'm glad you're bringing this up. There is absolutely no need to pick a named Goddess or God, or even the idea of Goddesses or Gods. In my tradition (Reclaiming), there is the concept of Mystery. Mystery can be a specific deity whose presence you feel drawn to, but it can also be a river, or a tree, or that numinous & indescribably feeling you sometimes get when you walk outside at sunset. Anything that speaks to your soul is Mystery, whatever form it takes for you.

I wish you the best of luck in all your searching.

-Windsmith

[Toby Stimpson]

That's very true...'All gods are one God' is a Hindu phrase....borrowed by modern Neopagans.

Well, seeing as the Archdruid of North America (hi, Isaac!) is sitting across the room at the other computer, I asked him about this.

Archdruid eh?...by what authority...there are several Druidic traditions out there right now, all calling themselves High druids...not to go off topic...but I'd be interested to know...

[Phaedra B]

Archdruid eh?...by what authority...there are several Druidic traditions out there right now, all calling themselves High druids...not to go off topic...but I'd be interested to know... Spousal Unit also goes by the name Isaac Bonewits (P.E.I. Bonewits) most recently founder and Archdruid Emeritis of Ár nDraíocht Féin (usually pronounced ADF), the largest Druid organization in North America. Visit www.neopagan.net (http://www.neopagan.net/) and/or www.adf.org (http://www.adf.org/). He has a forum here on Mystic Wicks under Authors, and is a pretty cool guy (which is why I married him :hearteyes).

Mrs. B.

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

I for one will admit that it is hard to accept the idea of Gods and Goddesses from time to time. People commonly think of 'God' as an older gentleman with a long white beard and sandles, but this idea really makes no real sense if you think about it rationally. I came to a conclusion long ago (and I can see many others have come to this same conclusion) that a God and a Goddess were so far beyond our understanding, and there was no way we could solidly personify them as looking like 'this' or 'that'. Yes, I do feel its possible these higher forces could and probably have manifested themselves as everyday people and things to in some way help us, or maybe even hinder us if need be.

In fact, here would be an example of my understanding of a god. A man is walking outside on a windy day, and the wind blows his hair around and it annoys him considerably, so he decides to get into his car and drive somewhere like, lets say a Mall. While he is on his way, he sees a person collapse in the middle of a deserted street from some sort of ailment, and he stops his car and gets out to help. No one else is around, but the man has a cell phone and calls an ambulance and therefore saves the persons life. If the wind had not blown and annoyed the man enough to get him to drive somewhere, he would have never saved the collapsed persons life. The wind, or a force behind the wind, knew what would happen ahead of time, and set forth a 'plan' to aid the ailing person. This sort of thing has certainly happened before, or something similar to it, but how many would realize it? Its really cool if you think about it, and in my eyes proves the existence of 'gods'.

Ok, I hope that made some sense and helped you understand the nature of gods. They don't need to be personified at all. In fact that may not even be as important as many make it out to be. What matters is these forces we call gods are beyond our reckoning yet always right by us ready to in some way teach us some sort of lesson.

Whew, I think I'm done now.

[SnowWhite]

Wow... thank you everyone for all your responses. You guys have really, really helped me. I know for sure that I am not going to chose a patron God/Goddess. I'd rather think of them as like, Mother Nature, the Earth, and like, the sky, and space as my god. I guess that just works out for me. But I am still not a hundred percent sure, it's definately something that will come with time as I learn more. I really appreciate everyone's responses, I've learned a ton!

In fact, here would be an example of my understanding of a god. A man is walking outside on a windy day, and the wind blows his hair around and it annoys him considerably, so he decides to get into his car and drive somewhere like, lets say a Mall. While he is on his way, he sees a person collapse in the middle of a deserted street from some sort of ailment, and he stops his car and gets out to help. No one else is around, but the man has a cell phone and calls an ambulance and therefore saves the persons life. If the wind had not blown and annoyed the man enough to get him to drive somewhere, he would have never saved the collapsed persons life. The wind, or a force behind the wind, knew what would happen ahead of time, and set forth a 'plan' to aid the ailing person. This sort of thing has certainly happened before, or something similar to it, but how many would realize it? Its really cool if you think about it, and in my eyes proves the existence of 'gods'.

I really, really like this example and it makes a lot of sense. It doesn't neccesarily put like, a face to a name or single out any God/Goddess... rather just... a force... haha I make no sense.

But thanks all, I've learned a lot!

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

Yes! Never underestimate the power of The Force! :clapping: :alol:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist saying that, lol.

[Lemony goodness]

The things I was going to say seem to have all been Phae-d away...

[Phoenix Risingstar]

Wow... thank you everyone for all your responses. You guys have really, really helped me. I know for sure that I am not going to chose a patron God/Goddess. I'd rather think of them as like, Mother Nature, the Earth, and like, the sky, and space as my god. I guess that just works out for me. But I am still not a hundred percent sure, it's definately something that will come with time as I learn more. I really appreciate everyone's responses, I've learned a ton!

*SNIP*

But thanks all, I've learned a lot!

SnowWhite, once upon a time, I thought of myself as atheist. I had to understand and see something concrete to believe it. Yet, I was doing Magick, I believed it worked, and I had a deity, Tyr. I did not think of Tyr as a god. I did not know there was a god named Tyr in the Norse Pantheon. I would not admit I was practicing Magick. I just did what came naturally. As for deity, Tyr was my personal champion. I am a better person for the encouragement I gave myself through my image of Tyr.

My purpose here is not to share my view of God/Goddess/s or deities because we must all find our own beliefs. I just wish to reassure you that Magick is not beyond explanation. Maybe science does not currently have an understanding of Magick but that does not mean it is not explainable -someday.

I also lean toward Wicca. I was taught, recently, that Wicca requires a belief in the 'Lord and the Lady' or God and Goddess. Big step for a woman who feels like an atheist. My Lord and Lady are a way of explaining something quite beyond my command of English or any other language, i.e., they are symbols. I will explain more if this interests anyone, but this is just my own view. I works for me. I hope you keep exploring and discover a path that works for you.

[Theres]

... they said that all Goddesses were one Goddess and all Gods were one God, so everything is interconnected and everything is one. That Goddesses and Gods just represneted different aspects of existence.
"they" might say that, but i never would!

[Toby Stimpson]

Spousal Unit also goes by the name Isaac Bonewits (P.E.I. Bonewits) most recently founder and Archdruid Emeritis of Ár nDraíocht Féin (usually pronounced ADF), the largest Druid organization in North America. Visit www.neopagan.net (http://www.neopagan.net/) and/or www.adf.org (http://www.adf.org/). He has a forum here on Mystic Wicks under Authors, and is a pretty cool guy (which is why I married him :hearteyes).

Mrs. B.

Ooooo, I just had a look, and I appologize for random doubt, theres nothing I hate more than people going around claiming things of that calibre when they have no right to or no authority, which is why I asked. I liked the website was very informative...so by all means accept my appology :). Namaste

Tobias

P.S. I loved the Dagda article!

[Hope3645]

Merry Meet Showwhite,
I am Wiccan. I am also a Pantheist. I don't believe that the God and Goddess are individual, physical, conscious beings (not all of those things at once, but technically they are physical in that they are literally nature, and they are somewhat conscious in that we, conscious beings, are a part of them). I think of them as nature, and as the great spirit that is present in all of nature, and as our higher selves, and as energies that we create through imagination. I do work with them sometimes as if they are conscious individuals, because I think it helps me connect to them.
I too, am a very science oriented person, but I don't believe this conflicts at all with my religion. I have at lest some proof for almost everything I believe. If you are having problems with this I recomend the book Where Science and Magic Meet by Serena Roney-Dougal. Good luck with your path!

Science is the study of Nature. What science calls Nature, religion calls God/dess

[Pure Ahimsa]

Well, seeing as the Archdruid of North America :fpraise: (hi, Isaac!) is sitting across the room at the other computer, I asked him about this.

The idea that the Druids were "really" monotheists is an invention of the 18th century Druid revivalists, who were, of course, Christians. There is no historical evidence that the Druids (who comprised the priest/scholar class in Celtic societies) believed that "all Gods were one God" in any sense at all.

Unfortunately, much of what is "common knowledge" about what paleopagan religions believed has been garbled badly by 1500 years of Christian scholarship, that is, scholarship with an agenda.

Well, since my family has kept up with "Celtic way of life" and parts of our family were (and Great Uncle is Druid) Druid, then I guess it was different for different families? Lost information can be related to the society around them.

[Morgandria]

Which "Celtic" way of life? What nation? How is it you track your familiy history all the way back to the Druid caste? It is difficult to understand your claims.

[LoriSage]

I think of them as nature, and as the great spirit that is present in all of nature, and as our higher selves, and as energies that we create through imagination. I do work with them sometimes as if they are conscious individuals, because I think it helps me connect to them.


I totally agree!

-Lori

[Suzette]

I have to agree in that 'Hope' I think said it best for me as well...

So, you want to witness the divine and experience Diety? My opinion is, look at every aspect of Nature... It is here around us every day and is a scientific, mathematical, miraculous, unexplainable wonder... Both male and female create this... Therefore to me, "Nature" dictates my Gods and Goddesses in my modern day Paganism. Balance is the key. I certainly call upon many Pantheons and thier energies for rituals and magickal workings (and as an admitted Taurus, Venus has been surrounding me forever), but I believe most exist in all we see and experience on a daily basis. Which is why I do thank Venus for making me appreciate beauty in many forms...

Not to use a tragedy to get our point out, but if I had a dime for all the emails I've received recently from non-pagan friends saying "See? This is WHO we ALL are. None are safe from the rapture of Mother Nature. Rich ~ poor, what it all boils down to is survival..." I (as I'm sure many of we do) sit back and agree, but add "Agreed, but let's include RESPECT for Nature" in the mix.

Hope that made sense...

[charmedkisses1]

I find paganism more contradictory than Christianity, so I don't understand your question.

I would think you would take them literally, otherwise you're just creating your own god with the same name.

[SnowWhite]

Wow... thanks everyone, I didn't think my thread was still alive! Anyways, Your replies have really cleared up quite a bit! I have another question regarding dieties and the elements. Can you have more than one main God/dess? I though perhaps that that my God/Goddess could simply be a personification of the four elements. As in, I could chose one for each element. Two females, two males. Does anyone know if aany of the four elements are associated with gender???

Thanks for helping a poor, confused noob.

[Pure Ahimsa]

Which "Celtic" way of life? What nation? How is it you track your familiy history all the way back to the Druid caste? It is difficult to understand your claims.



Family Stories and Clarisentience.

[Phaedra B]

Does anyone know if aany of the four elements are associated with gender??? Why, yes, of course they are. Air and Fire are "masculine"; Water and Earth are "feminine". Any standard reference can tell you that.

[Willow Rosette]

Ok here is my two cents...

In working out my beliefs i follow the standard "And it harms none, do as you will" I know most are going to say this is wrong but if you are creating your own beliefs then create them so they fit with who you are and not to fit what other people believe. Me personally I see the God/ess as spokes on a wheel no matter which name you call Him/Her it leads to the right place. so to me if you dont have a name to give your God/ess as long is the intent is still there then it will be fine. I think also you can work with a seperate diety for whatever you are working on in life. For example I am currently searching for a Goddess to help me through my current changes in my life. But at the sametime when I am giving thanks at night I am not specific as to which Goddess I send it to. Im teaching my daughter to give thanks so we simply say something like "I thank the Goddess for.." I am sure there are alot out there that will see this way as wrong but for me it seems to work. And that is what is important (I think) that you find what works for you in your mind as well as in your heart.