Evidence for solstice celebrations among the Celts?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Originally posted 12/21/04 in "ignorant solitary (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=78544&page=1&pp=10)":

Rhys, is one of the references to a solstice celebration in the Mabinogi you mentioned the birth of Mabon ap Modron or perhaps Pryderi's birth to Rhiannon and their subsequent disapperances? I'll have to go back and read the stories (I believe Pryderi and Rhiannon's story is found in Culhwch and Olwen (sp?) ) because the book I was reading about them in includes them in a section dealing with the solstice but never specifically says that Mabon/Culhwc/Pryderi as bringer's of light were actually born then. Like I said I'm going to go back and read those stories, I just was curious if these are the evidence you were referencing.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Originally posted 12/21/04:

Hi Morag!

Which version are you reading? I'll have to check which one I have at home but it's over 20 years old at this point.

I don't recall a winter solstice in the stories but there is a reference to a 'year'(as a length of time to be gone through) in Culuch and Olwen and one of the other stories, escapes me now (age creeping in). I also remember a reference to winter I just don't recall which one.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Originally posted 12/21/04

Dave, I've not read them yet. I was flipping through the Winter Solstice section in The Apple Branch and he brings up those particular stories in regards to the solstice. I was wondering if their births actually were said to occur at that time or if Alexie was relying on UPG and Imbas to relate their births to the solstice. I don't have a copy of the books myself. I was going to check at Sacred Texts online to see if they have them there.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Originally posted 12/30/04

Those happened at Beltane, no? I happened to be reading about Rhiannon yesterday, the mare of Teyrnon - which foals each May Eve, but the foal always dissaprears. One night he watches for how it dissapears, finds a monstrous clawed hand snatching it away (or substituting a hunan child for the foal) and defeats it. So he keeps both the foal and the child, Gwri, who grows up and is then found at age 12 to be the child of Rhiannon and renamed Pryderi.

If the mare foaled on May Eve and the new born baby was snatched away, the same night he mst have been born on May Eve as well.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Originally posted 12/30/04:

A modern translation of the Mabinogi by Will Parker is online. It uses theY Llyfr Gwen Rhydderch (The White Book of Rhydderch), which is older than Y Llyfr Coch Hergest (The Red Book of Hergest), so its based of a better source than was available to Lady Charlotte.
http://www.mabinogi.net/translations.htm

Rhys, if you want to read it in the original language, which is of course best, then Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru (The National Library of Wales) has the complete thing online. See
http://www.llgc.org.uk/drych/drych_s082.htm

More readable critical editions are also available, see
http://www.uwp.co.uk/book_desc/rb8a.html

[banondraig]

great info, thanks for compiling, Morag.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Sure banon. I just did it though so that we wouldn't get the discussion lost in the other thread.

Nantonos, thanks for the links. I will take a look at them. Maybe then I can find what I'm looking for. Based on what you say though, it's not where I was thinking. Like I said I'm not very conversant with Welsh myth. Do you have suggestions of where in the myths I might find the evidence of Winter Solstice celebrations that rhys was speaking of?

[Nantonos]

I don't recall a winter solstice in the stories but there is a reference to a 'year'(as a length of time to be gone through) in Culuch and Olwen

There are multiple references to a one year interval, such as between betrothal and the marriage feast. I have not found a reference to the solstice, so far. Its possible that some sloppy translations or summaries make this 'twelvemonth' into the twelth month:

Rhiannon said that Pwyll should pledge to meet her before she was given away to another, and that he should meet her on the same day, in the Twelfth month, at her fathers palace
http://covenantofrhiannon.org/pwyll.htm

a more accurate and literal translation of that portion is
‘I will make it, Lord, one year from now, at the court of Hyfaidd the Old[36]’ she replied ‘I will order the preparation of a feast ready for your arrival
http://www.mabinogi.net/pwyll.htm

It should be noted that in many cases the original date is May Eve, and thus a year later is still May Eve. Also, December is (as the name sugests) originaly the tenth month (November the ninth, October the eighth, etc) as the year started in March in the Julian calendar.

[Nantonos]

which foals each May Eve, but the foal always dissaprears

It turns out that the phrase May Eve is from the Lady Charlotte Guest translation. The phrase in a modern translation is

At that time there was a lord, Teyrnon Twryf Liant, ruling over Gwent-Ys-Coed[72], and the best man in the world was he[73]. At his house [he had] a mare: and throughout his realm there was neither horse nor mare in his realm as beautiful as she. And she would give birth every night at the Calends of May[74] – yet no-one ever knew what became of her foals[75].
http://www.mabinogi.net/pwyll.htm

Footnote 74 says "Probably equivilant to Beltane – the Celtic May-Day: a seasonal festival rich in both agricultural and mythological significance.". The calends, in the Roman calendar, were the first days of the months.

[Ron]

I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread. :) I'm still reading and comparing at the moment... :)

Peace and Love.

[KellyP]

I have the Jeffrey Gantz translation of The Mabinogion. Since I am reading nothing else at the moment I will see if I can find any references to solstices or in fact any calendar references in his version. Reading such things is always so much more fun when I have a goal!

Kelly
<insert cute Oklahoma themed banner here>

[Ron]

Just found this tidbit about some of the MIDWINTER traditions in Cymru:

http://www.folkwales.org.uk/mari.html

Thought I would share it up.

[skilly-nilly]

Just found this tidbit about some of the MIDWINTER traditions in Cymru:

http://www.folkwales.org.uk/mari.html

Thought I would share it up.

That's neat! I do that too:
http://www.care2.com/c2c/photos/view.html/view/142/793589964/368302978/211822971

[blackroseivy]

There's a reference on the Coligny Calendar to the winter solstice - I've even read that portion. It's just above where it's broken off - meaning we can't be sure that the solstices & equinoxes *weren't* kept in some fashion.

[Nantonos]

There's a reference on the Coligny Calendar to the winter solstice - I've even read that portion. It's just above where it's broken off - meaning we can't be sure that the solstices & equinoxes *weren't* kept in some fashion.

How could you read it if its broken off? :geez: Perhaps I misunderstand what you wrote....

And, what did it say? I'd like to follow this up.

[blackroseivy]

I think you did misunterstand. The inscription isn't broken off, the calendar is, just below the inscription. Clearer? :D

[blackroseivy]

Oh, as to what it said: I'd have to look it up again, but it had the Latin for Winter Solstice. That's all. It's somewhre near the very bottom of the thing.

[Nantonos]

Oh, as to what it said: I'd have to look it up again, but it had the Latin for Winter Solstice. That's all. It's somewhre near the very bottom of the thing.

That would be odd, considering the entire calendar is written in Gaulish, not in Latin. Could you check, and cite a source for this?

[Nantonos]

There's a reference on the Coligny Calendar to the winter solstice - I've even read that portion. It's just above where it's broken off - meaning we can't be sure that the solstices & equinoxes *weren't* kept in some fashion.

Note that the Coligny calendar covers a five year span, soif something is missing in one year the same part would eed to be missing in the other four yesrs as well to completely remove evidence for it.

I recently got hold of a good book on Coligny by Olmstead,which has the complete text, so I will look for what you mentioned.

[Nantonos]

I have the Jeffrey Gantz translation of The Mabinogion. Since I am reading nothing else at the moment I will see if I can find any references to solstices or in fact any calendar references in his version. Reading such things is always so much more fun when I have a goal!

Did you find anything?

[KellyP]

Did you find anything?

I have found nothing in a great deal of reading that seems to indicate that the Celts did any significant celebration near the times of the solstices OR equinoxes. A particularly interesting source for this thread is Ron Hutton's "Stations of the Sun" in which he tries to trace the roots and development of each holiday observed in the British Isles.

Having found nothing poses a puzzle. If the builders of Stonehenge and a few other prehistoric monuments did carefully align their structures to important solar dates, were these dates actually celebrated? If they were celebrated, why did that tradition seemingly disappear through time and the focus shift to the four celebrations we know of today?

[Myrddyn Emrys]

Speculation...

In the Celtic Nations it could be possible to attribute it to "Adbertoi" or what is known as "Public Rites". The four "cross quarter" festivals (i.e. Samhain, Imbolc, Beltaine, Lugnassad) were more "agrarian" based, which Celtic Society was. The Solstices and Equinoxes could have very well been "Secret Rites", for the Druids (or even paleo-Druids in the case of Stonehenge) only.

Even our modern references to the Solstices and Equinoxes vary from those times. What we now call the "first day of winter" (the Winter Solstice), according to the ancient Celts would have been the "middle of winter"

[blackroseivy]

I know that the beliefs about the days that were celebrated had to do with "between-times". The main celebrations would therefore logically have been "between" the solar days. But it doesn't seem logical to not see that this implies that the solar days must have had some sort of significance in & of themselves.

(Just theorizing, here...)

[ancestral_lee]

if i recall, the solstices being celebrated has far more evidence in pre-celtic times such as the neolithic. stonehenge being the obvious example. there has been some recent study whcih shows clear evidence for winter celebrations there but nothing for summer - maybe it was used for both or just winter -there is a thread on here about it... gimme a minute and i will find it....

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=98003

lee

[Nantonos]

there has been some recent study whcih shows clear evidence for winter celebrations there but nothing for summer - maybe it was used for both or just winter

There was a time team about Durrington Walls that was interesting, they linked that wooden henge to stone henge. Normally with an alignment you get two possible dates, eg midwinter sunrise and midsummer sunset. But since the site slopes, the skyline is different they had only one of the two (midwinter sunset, I think it was).
Amd of course there is a well attested midwinter sunrise alignment at Newgrange.

All pre-Celtic, agreed.

[skilly-nilly]

Speculation...

In the Celtic Nations it could be possible to attribute it to "Adbertoi" or what is known as "Public Rites". The four "cross quarter" festivals (i.e. Samhain, Imbolc, Beltaine, Lugnassad) were more "agrarian" based, which Celtic Society was. The Solstices and Equinoxes could have very well been "Secret Rites", for the Druids (or even paleo-Druids in the case of Stonehenge) only.

Even our modern references to the Solstices and Equinoxes vary from those times. What we now call the "first day of winter" (the Winter Solstice), according to the ancient Celts would have been the "middle of winter"


I know that the beliefs about the days that were celebrated had to do with "between-times". The main celebrations would therefore logically have been "between" the solar days. But it doesn't seem logical to not see that this implies that the solar days must have had some sort of significance in & of themselves.

(Just theorizing, here...)

My speculatory thoughts agree with Myrddyn Emrys' and Danubhe's--I have long thought that you can't have quarters without first having halves. More specifically, as Myrddyn Emrys says, the 2 crosses of holidays are different kinds of holiday--the halves are solar and the quarters are fire.

This, imo, supports the contention that the halves could have been more 'high holy days' and the quarters more 'home-based celebration' Although 'Harvest Home' and 'St John the Baptist' are not the holidays they once were, they (along with Christ's Mass and Easter) were originally strongly co-opted by the Catholic Church. One (meaning me could argue that the Catholic Church co-opted these holidays because they were important and left the home-based ones less interfered with. When you consider how difficult it is to mash Easter (which is based on the Lunar Jewish holiday of Passover) into a solar context (look up how the date of Easter is decided each year if you doubt that) and how clearly Jesus was not born in the Mid-Winter, I think it is obvious that the Early Church went to some trouble to co-opt these holidays. Not because they were empty, mind, but because they were full.

Granted Lammas, SteBrigid's or StBlaise's Day, AllSaint's and AllSoul's Daze,and Mary's Month were also Catholic holidays but they are more of a continuation of the likely preceeding celebrations rather than a superimposition over what might have come before; as in 'this is the day for driving the domestic stock between two fires and continues to be the day for driving the cattle between two fires; we'll just invite the priest as well'......

[Maggie]

Granted Lammas, SteBrigid's or StBlaise's Day, AllSaint's and AllSoul's Daze,and Mary's Month were also Catholic holidays but they are more of a continuation of the likely preceeding celebrations rather than a superimposition over what might have come before; as in 'this is the day for driving the domestic stock between two fires and continues to be the day for driving the cattle between two fires; we'll just invite the priest as well'......

Is why I think talk about "stealing" pagan holidays is kinda silly. People continued to do what they always did--they just sorta "modified" the meaning....:cheers:

Maggie