True Names

[Inquisitor]

As I understand it, everybody has a True Name that is a representation of themselves. My further understanding is that if somebody else speaks your True Name to your face, then you have to serve them for all eternity.
However, do we know our True Names? I don't believe I do, and I know nobody elses.

[Karma Chameleon]

As I understand it, everybody has a True Name that is a representation of themselves. My further understanding is that if somebody else speaks your True Name to your face, then you have to serve them for all eternity.

I disagree, someone having your real name only gives them a certian power over you, it doesn't mean you have to serve them for all eternity.



However, do we know our True Names? I don't believe I do, and I know nobody elses.

I think that you have to find your name, go on a name quest. I have found mine.

[soltiger]

may i ask how some one would go on this name quest?

[Karma Chameleon]

Well a Name Quest is basically a meditation to help you find your name.

[Calen]

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't say you have to serve them for all eternity. Or, even for half an hour!

[Druchii]

As I understand it, everybody has a True Name that is a representation of themselves. My further understanding is that if somebody else speaks your True Name to your face, then you have to serve them for all eternity.
However, do we know our True Names? I don't believe I do, and I know nobody elses.

I have no clue, and this is the first I have ever heard of this.
A true name as per what? Like a magic name or something?

[Aidron]

As I understand it, everybody has a True Name that is a representation of themselves. My further understanding is that if somebody else speaks your True Name to your face, then you have to serve them for all eternity.
However, do we know our True Names? I don't believe I do, and I know nobody elses.


This is not an actual Pagan concept, but one of fiction as present in such things like Earthsea.

I disbelieve in true names in that your true name is whatever name you identify with most, nothing more. Knowing it or not knowing it gives you no more power over a person than anything else.

[wintermagick]

There is also a Wiccan fiction series called "Sweep" that has this concept as well, but I have only heard of it in fictional writings.

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

There is also a Wiccan fiction series called "Sweep" that has this concept as well, but I have only heard of it in fictional writings.

The Sweep series by Cate Tiernan is the only place I have ever heard of this concept.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[Tabbykitty]

Actually I had tried to find out if there was anything to this True Name business... apparently..... this belief is widespread even among people who have not read any fiction like the Earthsea series. The chinese have a belief that a person shouldnt give out details of the "date and time of his birth" (a rough translation, but I think its a little more than just that...a direct translation reads "The words at the time of his birth") because it is like a fingerprint that uniquely identifies who the person is. There are stories of how a bad sorceror or priest or fortune teller can somehow control the person if he has the details I have just mentioned.

I also read somewhere (a non-fictional reference book) that ancient man believed in keeping his real name secret by using a Nickname or Use-name (that was how it came about) because he thought if someone knew his real name, they could either wreck havoc in his life or er..... control them.

[Aidron]

Actually I had tried to find out if there was anything to this True Name business... apparently..... this belief is widespread even among people who have not read any fiction like the Earthsea series. The chinese have a belief that a person shouldnt give out details of the "date and time of his birth" (a rough translation, but I think its a little more than just that...a direct translation reads "The words at the time of his birth") because it is like a fingerprint that uniquely identifies who the person is. There are stories of how a bad sorceror or priest or fortune teller can somehow control the person if he has the details I have just mentioned.

I also read somewhere (a non-fictional reference book) that ancient man believed in keeping his real name secret by using a Nickname or Use-name (that was how it came about) because he thought if someone knew his real name, they could either wreck havoc in his life or er..... control them.


This is entirely different, however. In the past mothers would often call their children by nicknames when darkness fell and they were out playing so that no malevolent spirits could follow them home or find them later on. This is in fact the same general belief that Halloween masks and costumes stem from.

However, a true name purely a fictional sub-division of this belief.

[elfmage]

I think the belief of not allowing others to know your "True Name" is actually quite an old one, and common to several cultures.

Traditionally, a child was given a name by their mother when they were born, and this was considered to be their "true name." It was never told to anyone, and the child was then given another, official name.

From what I recall, there were several main purposes for this. The main one was, as Aidron suggested, to keep the Gentry or any demons from knowing the childs true name. I think the reason for this was that once they knew the childs name they knew its identity, and could replace it with a changeling. Or I could be combining several unrelated myths here...

In any case, it is a tradition that is seldom practised in present times. I think the Romany still do, to some extent, but you would have to ask someone with more knowledge than I.

As far as others being able to control you with it... Well, I guess that goes with the idea behind having to know a demon's name to be able to summon it. It does give people some power over you, but not so much that they can force you to do whatever they want.

Others have suggested it, and I concur. Go on a name quest, but don't be too worried about the whole issue.

[Grey]

Yes, many cultures have variations on it... the simple way to put it though is "names have power" Your true name, whatever concept you wish to ascribe to that phrase, naturally has more. Complete control though? I think not, but that is just IMO.

If you dont believe it... whatch a parent call out their childs full name, even a quarte mile away... the effect is immediate.

[Tabbykitty]

Anyway.... I am kinda wondering.... whats the importance of knowing one's real name anyway? Would not knowing it hinder ya in some way?

[misschief]

As I understand it, everybody has a True Name that is a representation of themselves. My further understanding is that if somebody else speaks your True Name to your face, then you have to serve them for all eternity.
However, do we know our True Names? I don't believe I do, and I know nobody elses.no, don't think so. sounds like something out of a vampire novel or something.

[Bansheekisses]

I have mine
And i know what it means..and have yet to find a way of putting it into practice.

[Threase]

The Sweep series by Cate Tiernan is the only place I have ever heard of this concept.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

Same here...

[argento_occhi]

the Ancient Egyptians placed a lot of importance on names. Even if the child died soon after birth, it was named to ensure it had an afterlife. Names held power and if someone knew your name, or ran, then they could have power over you. This was behind the desecration of the king lists in order that Akenaten and his dynasty would be removed and forgotten. (at least, that's the basic premise -- i'm not sure on the exact details). I've heard of another concept that says that everyone has a secret ran that only the Gods know. Can't remember where i read that. If it's true, i don't want to know mine. Too much trouble. I'll let Djehuti look after mine.

bright blesisngs,
argent

[skilly-nilly]

This is not an actual Pagan concept, but one of fiction as present in such things like Earthsea.
There is also a Wiccan fiction series called "Sweep" that has this concept as well, but I have only heard of it in fictional writings.
The Sweep series by Cate Tiernan is the only place I have ever heard of this concept.
Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon
no, don't think so. sounds like something out of a vampire novel or something.

Many of the plot-supporting ideas in fiction come from research rather than the author's mind. Just as an example, those authors could all have read 'Rumplestiltskin', a 'fictional' work older than any of the works alluded to. I feel that finding a general allusion in a number of works to the same idea warrents research rather than dsmissing it as 'made-up'.

2 cultures that I have some familiarity with (Irish and Navaho) both have similar strictures about Naming. Both cultures use 'use-names' (descriptive tags like nick-names) and keep 'real' or 'full' names for trusted people and family.

I believe that Power is like water, and flows along the line of least resistance. I find the reliance on external sources of learning that many practicioners adhere to puzzling in the extreme. If you 'heard' that someone using your true name would give them power over you, would your 'learning' that make a doorway into manipulating you that didn't exist before?

I don't think so; I think that it would merely give a doorway that already existed a different name. If you deeply believed that your name, or your hair, or your fingernail cuttings, or your spit, or your blood, or your sexual act, or your oath gave someone access into your psyche, then it would. If you didn't, then not-well-intentioned Power directed at you would not have no access, it would just have to find some other access. How many non-Pagan, even non-religious, people who would laugh at the idea of true naming place a complete and absolute reliance of the Power of luck; wearing lucky things, performing ritual lucky actions, believing themselves 'lucky' or 'unlucky' in general or in specific? Power flows along the path of least resistance.

[Theres]

this idea is much older than contemporary fiction.
you will find the same concept in the Celtic tale of Bran (i hope i'm not confusing this with another myth), in the epic poem 'The Battle of the Trees' (the Cad Goddau (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/cadgoddeu.html)), and even in children's fairy tales like Rumplestiltskin.

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

I am familar with the concepts brought up by Skilly and Theres. I had not thought of them upon first reading this thread. Thanks for bringing them up! It got me digging and I found some interesting information...

Theres I would be intrested to know where you found that story about Bran! Most mythology I find surrounding him tells of the battle that led to his head being buried near London as a talisman to protect Britain.

I have found that the Egyptians had a concept of true names having power, at least amongst their Gods. The story of Isis and Re (Ra) the concept of a true name is brought up in regards to the concept if Isis knew Re's true name would bring her equal power to him, and it would also rank her and her son Horus beside him among the gods.

I found that mentioned in the following places but a quick search for that myth should bring up plenty of hits.

http://www.theologywebsite.com/etext/egypt/isis.shtml
http://www.themystica.org/mythical-folk/articles/isis.html
http://www.egyptianmyths.net/isis.htm
http://www.philae.nu/philae/NameofRe.html

Which leads nicely into my next bit of information....

I was reading through Witches, Druids and King Arthur by Ronald Hutton last night, and in the chapter entitled "The New Old Paganism" he discusses the information contained within a grouping of documents called the Demotic papyri that mention "true names."

From page 114-115:

These documents stated that "the native tradition that spirits and divinities could be made responsive and obedient to humans who had learned their 'true' names was developed into the ritual recitation of lengthy formulae of apparently meaningless words, supposed to be loaded with magical power."

The footnote for that quote reads:

"The usual explaination of these so called 'barbarous names' is that they were intended to impress by virtue of their inherent mystery and auditory impact. When they seemed to refer to any genuine language it was commonly a foreign one to Egypt such as Hebrew or Babylonian, to increase the sense of the exotic. Jocelyn Godwin, however, has argued that their vowel sounds actually embody a system related to the spheres and planets, expounded by some Neoplatonist, Gnostic and Neopythagorean writers, something on which I (Ronald Hutton) am not qualified to pronounce: The Mystery of the Seven Vowels in Theory and Practice (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Phanes 1991). I am grateful to Donald Frew for this reference.

Hope this helps!

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon