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bshore
January 2nd, 2005, 04:40 PM
I am an interior design student, and have been trying (without much help from my university) to educate myself about sustainable design. I happened upon an international organization with this article: http://o2-usa.org/UMW/links/editor.html

My question is, do any of you make a conscious effort to produce sustainable texts? If not, you should really consider it. I believe the Pagan community would be well served if we supported our earth-centered philosophies by doing everything we can to make our planet a healthy place for future generations.

For those of you who do publish on recycled paper or sustainable paper alternatives, kudos to you! If not, please read this article and look into it. Every little bit helps, you know!

Blessings

Yasmine Galenorn
January 2nd, 2005, 07:02 PM
I am an interior design student, and have been trying (without much help from my university) to educate myself about sustainable design. I happened upon an international organization with this article: http://o2-usa.org/UMW/links/editor.html

My question is, do any of you make a conscious effort to produce sustainable texts? If not, you should really consider it. I believe the Pagan community would be well served if we supported our earth-centered philosophies by doing everything we can to make our planet a healthy place for future generations.

For those of you who do publish on recycled paper or sustainable paper alternatives, kudos to you! If not, please read this article and look into it. Every little bit helps, you know!

Blessings

It's entirely up to the publisher what paper they produce the books on. Authors have nothing to say about it--we can give them suggestions, but the mass majority are going to go with what's economic for them.

Yasmine

bshore
January 2nd, 2005, 10:33 PM
It's entirely up to the publisher what paper they produce the books on. Authors have nothing to say about it--we can give them suggestions, but the mass majority are going to go with what's economic for them.

Yasmine

After reading your post, I went to the Llewellyn website to see if it said anything about printing on recycled paper and whatnot , but couldn't find anything. Do you know how I might find out if this is something Llewelyn and other publishers might agree with? I know that these alternatives are not unheard of, and the only reason they aren't more widely used is because of economic concerns, but do you think that if a significant number of Pagan authors and readers began requesting this, we might influence them?

Aidron
January 2nd, 2005, 11:39 PM
After reading your post, I went to the Llewellyn website to see if it said anything about printing on recycled paper and whatnot , but couldn't find anything. Do you know how I might find out if this is something Llewelyn and other publishers might agree with? I know that these alternatives are not unheard of, and the only reason they aren't more widely used is because of economic concerns, but do you think that if a significant number of Pagan authors and readers began requesting this, we might influence them?


You might. You must keep in mind that Llewellyn is a business and if they feel ecological concerns will hurt or improve business they will react accordingly, nothing more, nothing less.

Of course, there are many other publishing companies that exist beside Llewellyn that produce Pagan literature, both fiction and non-fiction.

Yasmine Galenorn
January 3rd, 2005, 01:14 AM
After reading your post, I went to the Llewellyn website to see if it said anything about printing on recycled paper and whatnot , but couldn't find anything. Do you know how I might find out if this is something Llewelyn and other publishers might agree with? I know that these alternatives are not unheard of, and the only reason they aren't more widely used is because of economic concerns, but do you think that if a significant number of Pagan authors and readers began requesting this, we might influence them?

I honestly have no idea how you'd find out--I don't know if they release that kind of information or not. And I haven't been with Llewellyn since 2000, although they still have the rights to one book of mine. I moved to a different NF publisher, then moved on into a different field entirely. I'm with Penguin Putnam now (I'm not writing NF anymore).

To be bluntly honest, I sincerely doubt that the publishers are going to care what the authors and readers say about it. Most authors have very little influence on their publishers, especially in such a specialized (and small) niche field such as metaphysical work.

The only thing I can think of is for you to write to each publisher's customer service office and try--that might get you some sort of answer. Do bear in mind, however, publishers are in this as a business, and that's exactly what publishing is---a business. If they use pricier paper, book prices will go up, customers will scream (they do now) and chances are, you'll see less books coming out. So keep that in mind when you talk to them--simply as a caveat.

Yasmine :colorful:

DebLipp
January 3rd, 2005, 02:03 AM
I'm sure you can write to Llewellyn for any information like this, and they'll give you an honest answer, but a PR oriented one.

Years ago, I used to subscribe to Mothering Magazine, and they had a series of editorials on what was going on with their recycled/recyclable paper decisions. The bottom line is that many recycled/recyclable papers are both more expensive and less appealing to the public, and if the public don't like, the public don't buy, and if the public don't buy, the question is moot. An out-of-business publication doesn't need to make decisions about paper!

Personally, I don't think non-fiction books are really a sustainability issue. We want our books kept, not recycled or discarded. And most people DO keep non-fiction. Romances, mysteries, thrillers, and other such pulp fiction is often considered disposable by the reader (no offense, Yazz, ;) ), but when we write about magic or witchcraft or paganism or what have you, we have every reason to anticipate that our books will be around long-term on the shelves of buyers.

Aidron
January 3rd, 2005, 03:15 AM
Romances, mysteries, thrillers, and other such pulp fiction is often considered disposable by the reader...


That is so true. This brings back memories of my grandmother and aunts who had romance books piled to the ceiling and discard them each year by hauling them off to the dump in dozens of trash bags. :yikes:

bshore
January 3rd, 2005, 02:17 PM
Personally, I don't think non-fiction books are really a sustainability issue. We want our books kept, not recycled or discarded. And most people DO keep non-fiction. Romances, mysteries, thrillers, and other such pulp fiction is often considered disposable by the reader (no offense, Yazz, ;) ), but when we write about magic or witchcraft or paganism or what have you, we have every reason to anticipate that our books will be around long-term on the shelves of buyers.

Well, I wasn't thinking of recycling books, since I love my library and don't intend to ever dispose of any of it. I was talking about making books from recycled/sustainable material.

I might write to a few publishers. I guess I'm a little supprised that Pagan authors aren't more concerned about this. It's kind of become my own personal crusade in my design classes, so everyone there knows I'm the "hippie save the earth girl" there. If anyone else is interested in this cause, please let me know. I think I may see what a couple of the other authors think, too.

Yasmine Galenorn
January 3rd, 2005, 03:19 PM
Personally, I don't think non-fiction books are really a sustainability issue. We want our books kept, not recycled or discarded. And most people DO keep non-fiction. Romances, mysteries, thrillers, and other such pulp fiction is often considered disposable by the reader (no offense, Yazz, ;) ), but when we write about magic or witchcraft or paganism or what have you, we have every reason to anticipate that our books will be around long-term on the shelves of buyers.

I don't think any book is a sustainability issue. (And while we're at it...I do NOT write pulp fiction, genre is not the same as pulp/hack work. LOTR was genre, but it sure wasn't pulp and neither is a lot of genre out there. And people do like my fiction enough to keep it on the shelves...I've fought the literati elistist battles for years and am just tired of it).

And bshore, re: concern, of course we're concerned. BUT...and people need to realize this---this is the real world. Authors, pagan or not, have to pay the rent and keep our families afloat and go to the doctor and pay for the car repairs. We make little enough as it is---of that $15 you pay for a NF metaphysical book, the author's going to be lucky to see even $1.

Yasmine

WandererInGray
January 5th, 2005, 12:27 AM
This is a tangent... :)
Fictional books are disposable? That's news to me, and my sis, and my mom, and the many other people I know who have libraries full of fictional work books.

On the topic of recycling paper and using it for books. *shrugs* Given that paper is a sustainable resource...it seems a bit silly to me to push this. As Deb pointed out, it's extremely expensive to recycle paper and most of the end product is nowhere near sturdy enough (or appealing enough) to qualify for books.

Recycling is good. I'm all for it. But an issue like plastic recycling to me is a better thing to push for. Or perhaps the planting of more trees to offset the use of paper in the first place.

Aidron
January 5th, 2005, 12:45 AM
This is a tangent... :)
Fictional books are disposable? That's news to me, and my sis, and my mom, and the many other people I know who have libraries full of fictional work books.

On the topic of recycling paper and using it for books. *shrugs* Given that paper is a sustainable resource...it seems a bit silly to me to push this. As Deb pointed out, it's extremely expensive to recycle paper and most of the end product is nowhere near sturdy enough (or appealing enough) to qualify for books.

Recycling is good. I'm all for it. But an issue like plastic recycling to me is a better thing to push for. Or perhaps the planting of more trees to offset the use of paper in the first place.


I know plenty of people who dispose of fictional work once they're done. They've read the story and gotten everything they want or need out of it. Some fictional works we keep, particularly the stories that stick with us and we read again and again like watching a good movie numerous times.

I've seen people get rid of non-fiction books as well, but on average it seems they tend to hold on to those more often than fiction ones from what I have observed.

WandererInGray
January 5th, 2005, 01:30 AM
I know plenty of people who dispose of fictional work once they're done.
:lol: See that's just bizarre to me. As long as I didn't dislike the book. It stays. It's very rare that I dispose of books in general, but the last time I got rid of books it was non-fiction history books and a bunch of Wiccan/Pagan books that I'd grown out of.

Yasmine Galenorn
January 5th, 2005, 02:07 AM
:lol: See that's just bizarre to me. As long as I didn't dislike the book. It stays. It's very rare that I dispose of books in general, but the last time I got rid of books it was non-fiction history books and a bunch of Wiccan/Pagan books that I'd grown out of.

Same here, paperback or hardback, if I liked it, it stays. I've gotten rid of far more metaphysical books over the years than general fiction...I'm extremely picky about the books I keep in that genre, though I must admit to keeping almost every other NF book I buy too. Hell, I just keep books unless I couldn't get through them...because if I don't like a book, I don't bother finishing it.

Yasmine :colorful:

Aidron
January 5th, 2005, 07:05 AM
:lol: See that's just bizarre to me. As long as I didn't dislike the book. It stays. It's very rare that I dispose of books in general, but the last time I got rid of books it was non-fiction history books and a bunch of Wiccan/Pagan books that I'd grown out of.


I have not rid myself of any books to date, minus old school books which are... well, more than a bit misinforming. :2G:

Gede
January 5th, 2005, 08:25 AM
MM~
Okay...hold on there for a second! Throw a book away!? :whatgives

Namaste, Gede...

DebLipp
January 5th, 2005, 12:22 PM
I don't think any book is a sustainability issue. (And while we're at it...I do NOT write pulp fiction, genre is not the same as pulp/hack work. LOTR was genre, but it sure wasn't pulp and neither is a lot of genre out there. And people do like my fiction enough to keep it on the shelves...I've fought the literati elistist battles for years and am just tired of it).

And bshore, re: concern, of course we're concerned. BUT...and people need to realize this---this is the real world. Authors, pagan or not, have to pay the rent and keep our families afloat and go to the doctor and pay for the car repairs. We make little enough as it is---of that $15 you pay for a NF metaphysical book, the author's going to be lucky to see even $1.

Yasmine
I didn't mean you were a pulp writer! I meant that certain genres are inclusive of pulp. There's even non-fiction pulp; celebrity ghost bios and that sort of thing, but mostly when people dispose of books they dispose of fiction.

Regardless, you're right about the control authors have; minimal or less. And besides, our priority has to be to see our books on shelves, and that means ceding control to market forces.

DebLipp
January 5th, 2005, 12:27 PM
:lol: See that's just bizarre to me. As long as I didn't dislike the book. It stays. It's very rare that I dispose of books in general, but the last time I got rid of books it was non-fiction history books and a bunch of Wiccan/Pagan books that I'd grown out of.

Ah, but I teach. Every Wiccan/Pagan book might go to a student someday. Fiction I keep only if I absolutely love it or if I want my son to read it.

Aidron
January 5th, 2005, 12:32 PM
MM~
Okay...hold on there for a second! Throw a book away!? :whatgives

Namaste, Gede...


Anything by Sarah Lyndon Morrison? Yes. The woman is a fruit. In one book she dictates that to overcome poverty you must obtain 9 gold bracelets. :rolleyes:

There is a lot of garbage out there, and not just in land fills. Some books and their authors deserved to just be burned at the stake outright for the moronic things they put into print.

chrestomancie
January 5th, 2005, 12:43 PM
I know I have begun purchasing more e-books that paper books because I have been concerned with all of the not recycled paper usage. I recycle as much paper as I am able to- on my own. ex, printing on back of already printed paper that I no longer need and cutting apart for scrap paper. I always purchase recycled paper for my printer and copier etc. I have long been interested in the kenaf plant http://www.kenafsociety.org/ and most of the greeting cards I purchase come from here. I would love to be able to start growing this plant as the greeting card paper is much more sturdy than the normal greeting cards you buy.

http://www.visionpaper.com/papermill_article.htm

WandererInGray
January 5th, 2005, 12:48 PM
I should clarify that by "dispose of" I don't mean throw away. I usually sell my books to local used bookstores, and on occasion have given them to people I know need them. (or think might want them)

CajunLady
January 5th, 2005, 01:14 PM
I've never thrown a book away..a.k.a. filled a trashcan....if I no longer want a book, I either give it away to someone I know or send it to GoodWill. I've got many books, not as many as I'd like, but I'll be working on my library more after we (hopefully) move.

Yasmine Galenorn
January 5th, 2005, 01:18 PM
I've never thrown a book away..a.k.a. filled a trashcan....if I no longer want a book, I either give it away to someone I know or send it to GoodWill. I've got many books, not as many as I'd like, but I'll be working on my library more after we (hopefully) move.

I'm the same way. I have too much respect for how hard my profession is to throw away others' works even if I think they're lousy...I give them to the thrift store if I don't like them.

Yasmine :colorful:

DebLipp
January 5th, 2005, 01:27 PM
I'm the same way. I have too much respect for how hard my profession is to throw away others' works even if I think they're lousy...I give them to the thrift store if I don't like them.

Yasmine :colorful:

I'm a member of Bookcrossing (http://www.bookcrossing.com). If the library and the paperback book exchange don't want 'em, they still find a home somehow.

Lisa Di Dio
January 5th, 2005, 02:07 PM
Another author chiming in...I would certainly love to have my works be published in the most sustainable fashion possible. However, as Yazza has pointed out quite eloquently, we writers have little voice in how our works are produced. As a matter of fact, most of us are just lucky to even get in print! My publisher offers e-books, which is a sustainable form, but very unsustainable for the author! We get a mere 10% (usually) of the wholesale price of a book (that's what the store paid, not what you paid - to state the obvious) and when an e-book is purchased, are looking at less than 6 cents per copy. Of course, I'll take the 6 cents and bow to Earth Mother and be happy that someone read my book. But I'd sure like to quit my day job and write full time and still be able to buy shoes for my kids! I guess when you're in the middle of it, there is passionate conviction and there is practicality. Somewhere between there must be a balance!

Again, however, we writers don't have the power. They'll just tell us to take our manuscripts and shelve them! After hours of blood, sweat and writers cramp, that's a devastating prospect. I believe the power would lie with the readers, instead. If there is a mass outcry from readers, the publishers may respond. Of course, they are businesses too, but it seems like Llewellyn would be a good first target as they do cater to the pagan gang.

As for disposable fiction...what??? I have four large bookcases in my house and they're all stuffed full. Perhaps two shelves worth are non-fiction. I'm just as likely to donate non-fiction to my neighborhood Friends of the Library for their quarterly sales as I am to donate fiction. And, truthfully, I've learned as much from well-written fiction as I have from badly written NF! Check with your local library to see if they have a fundraising/booksale arm. They will take anything, and the sales are also great sources for inexpensive books.

Lisa

AlAskendir
April 9th, 2005, 04:19 AM
Well, I wasn't thinking of recycling books, since I love my library and don't intend to ever dispose of any of it. I was talking about making books from recycled/sustainable material.

I might write to a few publishers. I guess I'm a little supprised that Pagan authors aren't more concerned about this. It's kind of become my own personal crusade in my design classes, so everyone there knows I'm the "hippie save the earth girl" there. If anyone else is interested in this cause, please let me know. I think I may see what a couple of the other authors think, too.


I am interesting. I think you should keep kenaf in mind as well as recycled paper... the thing to do really, is request that a certain number of books (like 10 or 100) of a certain publishing be sustainable, and supply the means to do that at lower or equivalent cost, and THEN talk up buying only the sustainably published books to Pagans. Who knows? It could easily 'take off' just as much as Organic Food has....

Listening Owl
April 12th, 2005, 12:18 AM
I am an interior design student, and have been trying (without much help from my university) to educate myself about sustainable design. I happened upon an international organization with this article: http://o2-usa.org/UMW/links/editor.html

My question is, do any of you make a conscious effort to produce sustainable texts? If not, you should really consider it. I believe the Pagan community would be well served if we supported our earth-centered philosophies by doing everything we can to make our planet a healthy place for future generations.

For those of you who do publish on recycled paper or sustainable paper alternatives, kudos to you! If not, please read this article and look into it. Every little bit helps, you know!

Blessings
...one other little footnote to all this is that publishers do not actually print the books - a printing company does it, and they give few if any choices about the type of paper...