Law of Return, Threefold Law, Ripple Effect, all that good stuff

[Astraea]

I noticed some threads dealing with the law of cause and effect, but I was interested in learning everyone's personal views, not just scientific theories. What are your personal ideas regarding laws of return? Do you believe in what goes around comes around, for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, everything you send returns to you threefold, etc? How do you perceive this concept?

I agree with the ripple effect, which is basically a law of cause and effect. My thoughts are that our actions send a "wave," (for lack of a better term) out from us toward our intended targets. The target is changed in some way, and the results of this change can and usually will affect others, and eventually may then affect us in turn.
This is true, in my thought, of any action, not just with magickal workings. If I bring harm to someone or thing, it is affected, it's change affects others, and may eventually affect me. I don't, personally, agree with the threefold law. So those are my views.

What are your thoughts???

[Kyrnnid Tyhn]

wow finally a decent thread that veers from the national crisis. that's refreshing. i used to agree with the threefold law. but that was mainly because i was very young and i didn't know any better. i hadn't honestly experienced my true magical power and analyzed any law of return. now after some years of actually thinking for myself and not staying on the wicca bandwagon, i agree totally with the law of cause and effect.
i agree with you that our actions cause a sort of wave in the universe that affects others and then might affect us also. no "what you send out returns to you three times as bad or good" BS. that's not even a logical concept.

good thread. i hope other people will be nice enough to share too!

[loopy]

I agree with the ripple effect, but I'm questioning karma lately. Sometimes it just seems like a way to say, "Don't do this, you'll be punished," and I don't know how I feel about that.

I'm still trying to figure out my exact feelings, but I definitely think there's a ripple effect.

[Twilight Garden]

I may be way off on this... But my understanding of Karma is a bit more complicated than simply "...or you get punished." You may end up doing something good to "make up for" what you've done. And yes you could get punished. It does not imply (from what I've seen) that you are punished thrice, as someone mentioned in a different thread. That is the Three-Fold Law, a Wiccan principle.

It's the threefold law that seems a bit harsh to me. I make a mistake for a year of my life, and I pay for it for three years or with something hitting me three times as hard? Is that the way it works?

The ripple effect... is that something similar to the butterfly effect? Only in human inter-action.

[Myst]

It has nothing to do with getting punished. To say it does is to almost imply that someone is up there judging us and doling out punishment.

To me, it's a natural law, like gravity. When you send out more negative energy then more negative energy exists in the universe, thus you're more likely to receive negative energy. I don't see it in terms of "threefold" or punishment at all, just a simple natural law like that that states that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, or that energy can only be changed, not created nor destroyed.

What goes up must come down.

[MammaStar]

I've been think about this lately. The 3-fold law and all that.

When i first started on my path, I tried my best to follow the Rede to it's literal point. While I don't go out seeking to harm people, there are times when I get angry and lash out. There is are 2 people in my life right now, that due to circumstances, I am stuck with them and can't change the situation. I get angry at these people quite a bit. Yes, I've tried talking it out, avoiding, but you know what, you can't avoid your family. I have said things in anger that could be hurtful, and discovered some things did happen to me over the summer that could be viewed as "retribution". I got hit by a truck and then fell down my friends front porch and hurt my foot. When I got over the physical pain, I began to wonder if this what was *caused* by the hurtful things I have said in the past. Could this be a result of the 3-fold? Or is it Karma? Negative Energy? or just sheer coincidence? I'm not sure, this I do know, the more hate in the world, the uglier things get. I think this has been proven over the last week.

Don't think I made too much sense, sorry about that. Just wanted to add my voice to the discussion.

[slvr_phoenix]

Here are my stray thoughts:

* The 3-fold law isn't any more Wiccan than the Golden Rule or Fudge Brownies. It's something that has been adopted by many Wiccans, but that does not make it Wiccan itself.

* Take the Ripple Effect one step further. You perform an act of good. That energy ripples out. It flows through someone. They, enlightened, perform an act of good. Their good energy ripples out from them as well. How many other people are hit by each subsequent ripple? How many of those ripples come back towards you and affect you? All from one single original act. And it could even be argued that on average, the amount that ripples back is approximately three times what you sent out. Not always, just on average. That's my interpretation of the Three-Fold Law. It's not about karmic punishment, but simply thriving (or wallowing) in the very energies you've stirred up. What you send out will, in a way, come back to you.

[Twilight Garden]

Just wanted to say... I like the way Willow Raven put things.

Also,
The Golden Rule is biblical... "Do unto others as we would have other's do unto us and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil for thine is the kingdom..."

Find me another "Rede" that has "The Threefold Law", not something similar. And you are right, slvr_pheonix, it is adopted be many Wiccans. That doesn't make it Wiccan. I just don't really have any exposure to any other cultures or religions that utilize that phrasing of words. Please enlighten me.:)

[Myst]

Very true Slvr. I'm glad what I said meant sense to you LunarMist.

On the threefold thing, I've read that it's an arbitrary number, and I've read that it was symbolic of magick (ie. maiden, mother, crone, god, goddess, All, so on).. Although a lot of Wiccans do adopt it, I wonder if it can be substantiated. I dunno, how do you measure 3x over? Is it 3x as bad, or the same amount of bad 3 times? Some people believe you actually get karma back several times over, some people don't believe in karma at all... but exactly 3x? I dunno..

[flar7]

Where I live, there are a lot of Indian medicine men and women. They seem to have no problem with cause and effect or the threefold law. They "smoke" people and no negative energy comes back on them. And these people are POWERFUL, I mean you want to be on friendly terms with them cause they can be scary. They, to my personal knowledge, do not seek revenge for themselves, but rather, make a living out of their magic. They have very successfull fertility magic. A lot of women that I know who had trouble concieving went to a shaman or shamaness(?) and bingo! Their pregnant.

I personally follow a more "karmic" path. Hoping that the energy that I send out comes back or is at least passed on.

P.S. When it comes to medicine man vs. medicine woman, they are each better at certain things. I would prefer to be "smoked" by a man rather than a woman. With a man, you have less lethal effects.

[loopy]

I know it doesn't only/exactly mean that you'll get punished. I just think in some cases it serves as more of a tool of fear for people. I.E. someone treading softly, being scared to have a bad thought or something, just because they think the negative energy of it will punish them later on.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by slvr_phoenix
Here are my stray thoughts:

* The 3-fold law isn't any more Wiccan than the Golden Rule or Fudge Brownies. It's something that has been adopted by many Wiccans, but that does not make it Wiccan itself.

* Take the Ripple Effect one step further. You perform an act of good. That energy ripples out. It flows through someone. They, enlightened, perform an act of good. Their good energy ripples out from them as well. How many other people are hit by each subsequent ripple? How many of those ripples come back towards you and affect you? All from one single original act. And it could even be argued that on average, the amount that ripples back is approximately three times what you sent out. Not always, just on average. That's my interpretation of the Three-Fold Law. It's not about karmic punishment, but simply thriving (or wallowing) in the very energies you've stirred up. What you send out will, in a way, come back to you.


PAY IT FORWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

heh didn't see it. don't know anyone who did. But that movie is a lot like your idea :)

[Sequoia]

Karma can be reaaaally reallly good. . . and it can reaaaally reaaallly suck hehe. I belive in the three-fold law (firsthand experiences tend to make me belive -_-; and man can karma be creative when dishing it back at me), although sometimes it seems like the "three to the third to the third to the third" law 8O hehe

I think if you do bad stuff, sooner or later you're going to get it right back at you. If you're a jerk, people aren't going to like you. That's something everyone can agree with, right? simple cause and effect. . . . I just see it with broader applications ^^;

Sometimes it takes more than one life. .. but trust me, stuff comes back!!

this has been my personal view, and this is a disclaimer. Please disreguard this if you have no intention of taking this as a joke. Thank you. That is all.

[Myst]

Originally posted by loopy
I know it doesn't only/exactly mean that you'll get punished. I just think in some cases it serves as more of a tool of fear for people. I.E. someone treading softly, being scared to have a bad thought or something, just because they think the negative energy of it will punish them later on.

Yup and I think that can be problematic. I know I felt like that when I was Wiccan, everytime I even thought negatively I'd chide myself for it. I don't think it's conducive to people to treat it like a hard and fast rule that all Wiccans (or Pagans, for some) must follow.

[Mariposa De La Luna]

I don't think its a hard and fast rule either but more as a place to start before you can formulate your own ethics.

I believe in that it all comes back to you and I've seen it happen and i think its happening to me right now :D (The good is coming back to me) But I don't sweat the small stuff, like thinking bad about someone in the heat of the moment, that's just natural. But i do believe in apologizing and recognizing what you have done wrong and bettering yourself. And that may be a way to turn it all around so more of your actions are for good, or at least intended to be good, and you don't make the same bad ones over and over again. I can say I'm now a nicer and IMO a better person than when i started on this path.

I also think these rules are there so you can stop and say "wait a minute" and think before you act. If people did that natually, we wouldn't have these laws.

[Autumn Gemini]

I strongly believe in karma and my own version of the threefold law. Yes, everybody gets what they've sent out in the end. I've seen karma in action in my own life. And yes it does seem to run in a threefold type cycle. Maybe not something three times as bad or good as was done but sometimes something like three minor things that happen that add up to a major event. Call it what you will but we do get back in some way what we send out. I've also noticed the universe has a sense of humor about how someone may get back what they have sent out. I don't feel like its so much a judgement as keeping a balance in things. Just my thoughts on karma and the threefold law. :)

[Astraea]

Thanks, everyone, for your input.
I agree with slvr_phoenix- that the threefold law can be an extension of the ripple effect.

But I don't feel it's always possible to "measure" the intensity of energies that return to us. What we receive might seem more intense to us, but if another person was in our situation, they may consider it "less" intense. If I send healing energies to the people of NYC, they in turn create a positive ripple, everyone else affected creates a positive ripple, and then in the future I'm affected in some way by this energy. Is this energy I received "three times" as good? I think it depends on my perspective. If I'm saved from being smashed by a semi, sure I might think that's pretty intense. But if something less dramatic happens, in my mind, it might not seem "three times" as intense.

Actually accepting and giving name to a "threefold" law is not that important to me. Simply knowing my own energies can return to affect me in any way imaginable is important. They may return and seem more intense, they may return and seem less intense.

I just don't agree with the literal interpretation of the threefold law that the Wiccans I know personally accept. Whether or not anyone here accepts it in that way, I don't know.

And yes, the threefold law was adopted into most modern Wiccan traditions. I haven't found anyone who honestly knows it's exact origins.

[Shy Hawk]

I gotta agree with slvr_phoenix on this one. I really favor the ripple effect myself. I don't want to like restate the whole dern thing...you know what I mean. However, I don't do the 3 fold thing, because like....why three? I believe it's arbitrary, and there's not specific number, it just signifies that one's actions are met with a more intense response.

And Pay It Forward was a very cool movie Ill. It had some very good ideas in it. :thumbsup:
~Shy

[Kyrnnid Tyhn]

i agree with Astraea. i totally agree that the threefold law is not necessarily important and that it's not truely possible to know its validity. although i always thought of it as illogical it really isn't possible to measure it like you said. good points about the threefold and i never thought of it in that way.
i still definitely agree with your description of the ripple effect.