Moral question...

[WaterLilly]

This probably isn't as interesting as you all thought it would be... but here goes!

I recently got married, and my husband's parents had been hinting that they may be getting us a computer, which was really exciting because they are very selfish and cheap people. I thought they were really turning around, but after the wedding, we realized we hadn't recieved anything from them! We waited a while and then my husband went over to ask them as politely as possible what we were supposed to write on the thank you card.

They told him that they were giving us their old couches from the room they were converting into an office. They also wanted to give us their old microwave. Now, when they had mentioned giving us the couches earlier, before we were married, he had told them that we wouldn't really need them. We had already gotten our own couches and had no room for them. Now it turns out they're supposed to be our wedding present!

I'm not really shallow and money crazy, so don't get me wrong. In my family, I was raised that it doesn't matter what the gift is or how much you paid for it. It could have cost fifty cents and been something the person really wanted and be a million times better than something expensive and useless! But in his family, since they spent however many thousands of dollars on these couches, giving them to us is their idea of a generous present because they spent so much on it, but to me these couches are an insult... to my husband too.

They've never been good people, always more interested in themselves than anything, so when I found out they were planning (supposedly) on doing something for my husband and me that we really would appreciate (like getting us a computer- more than I had ever expected) and they just give us some lousy old brown leather couches that we can't use, it really made me mad, I mean, come on! Their son just got married, you'd think they'd be happy or supportive or want to do something nice for him for the first time in his life! (and yes, I mean that literally)

Now to the moral part... When my husband was talking to them and found out that the couches were our gift he told them we couldn't use them, and if we got them we'd just try to sell them for something we could use... "Like a COMPUTER..." They said they didn't just want to liquidate their house and if we didn't want them, we could just pick "something else" out of their house. So what are we supposed to do? My husband just wants to leave it be, and not take the couches... basically not take anything from them anymore and try to have as little to do with them as possible. What I want to do is take the damn couches anyway and sell them. We could probably get close to a thousand dollars for them if not more, they're nearly new... Might as well get something we can really use out of this, so what if it pisses them off? I don't think they have any right to be allowed to be mad. (not very nice of me to say, I know, but I've reached the end of my rope with these people.)

What do you guys think we should do?

[Danustouch]

I don't think they have a right to be mad either. Their gift obviosly isn't coming from the heart, so there is no need for them to be offended. Take the couches, sell them, and use the money to buy something nice for yourselves.

I understand what you mean about the "intent". Personally, I don't care WHAT i get as a gift for birthdays, etc. What matters is not the price tag, what matters is the "intent" behind it being given. If they were giving you something of enormous sentimental value, such as a family heirloom, or a Beautiful Picture of your husbands family in a nice frame, with an engraving..I'm sure you would have been touched. Instead, they are giving you their "castoffs" with no real thought behind it. If they are liquidating their house, no doubt, they'll also be giving stuff away, or what have you, to other members of the family, and friends. So...their was no heart behind it, no imagination, etc. So, I'd treat their gift with the same respect they gave it. Either that, or I'd kinda REALLY play the shame game on them. I'd keep the couches, put them in your front yard, with a sighn.."THANKS MOM AND DAD...we REALLY love these couches. What a thoughtful wedding present!!!". LOL..but that's just my devious idea. LOL.

Anyway...I guess, hon, that you are going to have to keep your expectations REALLY low with these folks. I don't know WHAT i would do if my family or my husbands, behaved in that manner. I'd probably go bolistic.

Just one question though, out of fairness. Did they pay for any of the ceremony?

[Kaylara]

What planet are these people from? Since when is it acceptable to give wedding presents that are just old stuff that someone wants to get rid of. I think that perhaps you should try talking to them one more time. Explain to them that you do not need the couches, and don't want to take anything else from their house. Try to explain your stance on things. If they still don't listen, then tell them if you are going to take the couches, then you are going to sell them.

Just my advice... I would be pissed to if my mother and father in law tried to give me their crap for my handfasting. And I would let them know it, but then again, I think that they know better...

Good Luck Hon!
Kaylara

[slvr_phoenix]

If it were me, I'd just say, "Thanks for thinking of us, but we don't want any of your furniture.", and just forget about it. The couches seem to mean something to them, so taking them and selling them would be just as much (or more) a blow to them than the offer was to you. And while some people like the whole 'an eye for an eye' thing, I'm not particularly fond of it. I mean if you want to improve your relationship with them, that's hardly a good path to starting that improvement.

So I'd just accept that they're incensitive and learn to not expect anything better from them, but always hold that candle of hope.

But then, that's just me. You of course should do what you feel is the best way to handle it. :)

[Myst]

I have several family members who are the same way. Too self centered to see past their noses, and what can you do?

Take the couches, sell them off (you should be able to get enough from them for at least a decent second hand computer from the classifieds if not a brand new one), and if at all possible never associate with these people again.

I just got out of a situation with relatives that went on for years and years where I did my best to be helpful and loving and forgiving, and in the end just got my butt burnt again.

Honestly, I do know how you feel, I've been there, and I've found that the best thing to do is just gather your wits and hightail it outta there.

[MammaStar]

Take the couches & sell them. I just read it to my co-work too, & she agrees. It's too bad that they can't see past how the world effects them and do something nice for their son.

[Lavender]

I would say tell them that you will take the couches & you will be selling them and explain to them that you don't need them or have the space for them. If they still insist on giving them to you, then take them & sell them. I don't understand why they're so set on you keeping the couches. They don't sound like they're heirlooms or something. If you tell them what you're going to do & they still insist, then there should be no hard feelings on their part later.

Wow! Some people! :rolleyes:

[Lavender]

This also reminded me when we got married. My parents invited some of my cousins to the wedding. They're part of the rich side of the family. I'm talking REALLY RICH! Anyway, my cousin made a big deal about handing me a red envelope (Chinese Tradition). When we opened it later, it contained a cheque for $20.00 and the cheque bounced! :lol:

[Twilight Garden]

Do they not have much money? That usually would be an inappropriate question in my eyes, but in this case it seems valid. If they are fairly comfortable, then I would say try not to fret about it. Why stress over a gift? If they are normally so selfish, why would you expect any more from them? Because it's a big day for the two of you?Obviously the ceremony and traditions didn't mean as much to them. You married into what appears to be a self-centered family. My impression is you knew this to begin with. They may have reasons, they may not. I wouldn't want to start my marriage off stressing over a gift from the in-laws.

Personally, I say take the couches to sell. Remind hubby that if your going to try to "have as little to do with them as possible," you may as well have a grand to help along the way. Maybe put it in a special bank account and only use it when absolutely needed, if that would make him feel better. Work at getting the 'puter yourselves. You're in this together.

BTW,Congrats!:D
*LunarMist

[Tigerwallah]

I have to agree with the majority. Sell the darn things. Too bad you can't sell the in-laws.

[Myst]

Incidentally, this is very timely, since the past few days (and actually weeks to be honest) my fiance and I have been thinking about people we will invite to our wedding. Unfortunately there are some people who we know won't show up, or will for the free meal... it's not about money at all, or gifts, it's about your own family caring about your happiness.

I know *exactly* how you feel.

[Semele]

I have to go with Silver phoenix on this one. I wouldn't sell the couches. I wouldn't take them if I couldn't use them either though. Some have given the advice to write them off and have nothing more to do with them. I whole-heartedly disagree. i may not always get along with my in laws or my own mother for that matter, but I love them and vice versa. Family is a gift...whether it is always obvious or not. When there are children in the picture, if that should be the case, they have a right to know their Grandparents. I would hate to see something as trivial as a wedding gift, no matter how pathetic it is, ruin a future relationship with you and your in laws and your children's relationship with them as well.

[flar7]

with semele and silver pheonix, take the moral high ground and refuse a gift altogether.
If you took the couches to sell that would be a hurtful act since you know that they dont want you to sell them.
In-laws can be difficult, but they deserve respect. They are the parents of the one you love. They may never care for you the way you want, but sometimes that is the way it is. And if they ever do change then this incident will stand out as a time you respected their wishes to a certain extent.

So, dont take anything from them and politely avoid them until they come around. I know it sux, but family is family. It could be worse.

[Illuminatus]

1) Take couches
2) Crank up Ebay and Sell Couches
3) Invest money for 10 years
4) Put parents into nursing home; move far far away

[EasternPriest]

I would simply say thank you, but no thanks, and move on.

[WaterLilly]

Thanks for all the replies! Sorry about the delay too...

I really appreciate all your feedback. As of now, we've sort of just avoided anything to do with the couches and whether or not we're taking them, but sending a thank you card time is drawing near and we're not really sure what to write thanks for. They haven't officially given us anything, but more pressing is that they've still never given us support or love. A terrible situation if you ask me. What do you write in a thank you card to someone who's given you nothing but coldness anyway? Seriously?

Based on some of the replies, I want to make the statement that selling the couches, if we were to do so, is not any form of "getting back at them". I'm just trying to decide if even though they're parents, is returning/exchanging type actions to a gift acceptable like you would to any other gift? I also want to impress that this is not the gift or any gift that upsets me about this, it's the motive behind their action that bugs me.

Flar, about your comment about them deserving respect because they're inlaws- I understand, but I don't agree with you. I might have before I met these people, but getting to know them has taught me the lesson that a person earns respect through their actions, not status. Anyone can be a parent, but being a good parent and a good person is what gets you respect. Just thought I'd comment on my reactions to that opinion, no argument intended. :)

I'm still open to opinions... And thanks for all your support so far.

--WaterLilly

[Myst]

Originally posted by WaterLilly
I might have before I met these people, but getting to know them has taught me the lesson that a person earns respect through their actions, not status.

I think you've made some important points. While a lot of us don't absolutely get along with our in laws but feel an effort should be made.. I for one know how it feels to try for **years** to deal with family members like that. Sometimes it just gets nowhere and their negative energy just pulls you down. You wouldn't spend time with friends who did that would you?

This incident with the couches is not the first problem you've had from them. It probably won't be the last. Sell the couches, refuse them, it doesn't really matter. If they are really that negative you aren't doing yourself a favour by taking it anymore, IMHO.

[WaterLilly]

*nods* Thanks, I consider that good advice.

It's still hard coming up with a final thought though. I mean... I don't honestly think they'll ever change... I certainly can't change them. People will only change when they want to, but I just keep on hoping that they'll come around. Like you said, you wouldn't hang around a friend if they treated you that way, and that's how I feel... but still... WHAT IF... You know? I'm afraid to just give up on them because I know if I do there'll be not chance of it ever getting better. But again as you said, is it worth it to let them torture me and my husband till (if) they come around?

[Swanspirit]

"high ground" here......... what you are dealing with is a dysfuntional family that either doesnt know how to show feelings or is outright abusive......so playing moral one upmanship is just continuing the pattern....
I have SO BEEN there ...... my ex mother inlaw way back in ought somthing or another ... when I was a child bride and had stars in my eyes..... promised my new husband and me the DOWN PAYMENT on a house ..... Well we went looking and found one under budget .....we were so excited ..... only to hear her say ..... well...... I meant ONLY if it was right down the street from me .......exactly where we didnt want to move......
Ask them what they want to give you ...... and accept it graciously if you can......
many a wedding gift has been returned what you DO with it afterward is not their concern.....it is after all your lives........ not theirs to manipulate with gifts.....
Love and Light
Swannie

[flar7]

to offend you about that. Dont associate with any people whom you cant reconcile with after trying.

But I meant they deserve respect because they gave birth to the man you love, and at some time in his life he called her mommy and looked on her with adoring eyes. The eyes of innosence. It is that aspect that I speak of when I speak of respect. True, parents can become terrible, but unless they are abusive to their young children, then usually the child will have some fond memories of them. I say this from first hand knowledge, my former marriage, and some of my best friends.

I hope that things work out best for you two. Simple avoidance is what we tried when possible.

[Fawn]

Why not just ask them *again* why they are so admant on giving you all something
A-absolutely no room for
B--don't need
C--don't want

It could just be their perserve way of teasing you.

They are going to have a part in your future--now big or small a part is up to you two, but, I would try reasoning with them one more time. or is there another person who could act as a go-between for you all? I'd request their help.

I understand what you mean about them not being very concerned over doing their part to get along. That's awful. here's hoping you all settle this happily for everyone.

[Tigerwallah]

why you are sending them a "Thank You" card. Since there is no gift you have nothing to thank them for. Make it easy on yourself. Just don't send them a card. They can't possibly be waiting for one since no gift was given. Save a card, however, just in case they give you reason to send one in the future.

For fun, I'd send one that said, "Thank you for coming to the wedding. Your gift of an empty promise was much unappreciated." Of course, this would cause them to not speak to you. Which is the way I'd prefer it, but you might not.

[Swanspirit]

who ever they are to you familially...... doesnt mean they get to hurt you......... and what they are doing is abuse ...... it is emotional abuse.........indirect ..... to "avoid consequences" but nevertheless emotional abuse......you have lots of choices ......
be direct and up front and tell them this is hurtful to you ... but dont be surprised by the I dont see why response......
or you can simply not accept the gift.....or you can accept it and make it a real gift to yourselves........and look at it as the best they can do given what ever dysfunction they are dealing with......
Blessings on your Marriage ......what ever choice you make .......
Love and LIght
Swannie

[Illuminatus]

Just say "Thanks for coming to the wedding" and leave it at that..

They DID come, didn't they???

Let the whole gift thing slide. It's probably just a warning shot pending future slights to come, so take heed and keep your eye out for the next time they try to pull some kind of manipulating tricks on you.

Someday you will create grandchildren for them, and then you will be in a position of power over them, as they will have to follow YOUR rules if they want them in their lives.

- Ill

[slvr_phoenix]

Well, I still say that if the couches mean something to them, and you take them and then sell them, that they will probably be offended by that. It doesn't matter whether you meant to hurt them or just needed the money. They sound like pretty unreasonable people to begin with, so I don't think that making the matter worse would help anyone.

Besides, need I bring up the fact that it's a gift, not an obligatory requirement. They don't have to give you anything. And they at least offered something, however uninspired it may have been. It may show a lack of care on their part, but expecting them to give you something better, to the point of being upset if they don't, is a bit presumptuous and demanding.

It's one thing if they give you a VCR or a toaster oven or something that they have no emotional attachment to. Things like that you can return or exchange without any worries. Carefully selected gifts or gifts with emotional attachment though are best to not mess with like that, because if you do, someone's feelings are going to be hurt.

So I still say the best action to take is to just politely refuse the couches, and then live and let live. Maybe in the future they'll show more concern towards you. Maybe they won't. But expecting/demanding them to behave how you think that they should behave isn't respecting their personhood.

As for a thank you card, if they haven't done anything that you're thankful for, then I'm don't see why you should send them a card. Maybe you could thank them for attending the wedding, if they did that. If not, then I don't think they deserve any thanks.

That's my two cents. Take them or leave them as you see fit.

[Starlight]

Well , I think you should say thanks but no thanks on the couches thing. Although I don't think these couches mean anything to them and selling them would bring in a nice grand....... Refusing the castoff may just make the statement that "Together my husband and I are strong and can make the very best of our lives together without your cold hearts ", in turn showing your the better people for taking that insult in stride. Also when you get this new computer with your own hard earned money you may feel better about it in the end and have a nice feeling of accomplishment.
This is just me. I hope it all works out for you and your new husband. Congratulations! :thumbsup:

[WaterLilly]

Hi again... letsseeee.... to recap some of the questions:

Yes, they did come... although only barely. They played the "we're only going to come IF..." and the the "we're only going to help you out IF..." games. They did so simply to try to get what they wanted out of it. It's funny, they practically ignored that they still had children living at home and did their own thing till one wanted to get married. Then the only time they lifted a finger was if it would benefit them or was something they wanted to see us do. It was such a hassle trying to keep them "not offended" enough to come. I sometimes felt like they were TRYING to find stuff to get mad at! It was hard enough completely disliking them, but to try to convince myself once they hated me too to make concessions in my relationship and life to make them feel better was even harder! ... Ok, sorry about that rant. I'll get on with it!

(Flar, thanks... I'm glad you didn't take that as fighting words from me. I know on computers you can't really make facial expressions or pass on the appropriate tone of voice!)

About the card... I am thinking of not sending one, it would keep this situation quiet. I don't think they'll notice. I think perhaps if we do send a card that whatever we try to put on it to be nice... (thanks for coming to the wedding.) will remind them about a gift. Don't you think?

Slvr Phoenix, I thought I should say that no, the couches aren't important to them. At one point they bought two sets of leather couches for their sitting rooms. One set is huge and overstuffed and look handmade, the other is just your typical leather couch. I can see the first set being important to them. Since their eldest is in the Army and their other child just got married, no one ever sits on the plain couches anymore... nor uses that room. In fact, they rarely sat there when the boys still lived at home! They were emptying out that room to convert it to their home office... they're selling religious diet pills. Yeah, I know. Maybe it's a low blow to make cracks like that... but come ON! Christian diet pills??! What can I say? These people met in Bible College. Anyway... office. Right, so they're converting the room to an office. They were getting rid of all this stuff anyway but decided to give it to us a wedding gift. If you wanna give a couple some stuff you want to get rid of cause you think it will help them along, great... but if you just want to get rid of it and make it your gift, that's tacky. Especially from parents in my opinion.

See, they make plenty of money, but they spend it all on themselves as soon as they get it. In fact, when my husband was in high school, he had to pay their bills with his part time job! They'd run out. I used to hear them yelling at him to make more money. Money is everything to them. In fact, they're so cheap that ever since their children can remember if they wanted a gift for any occation that was over $50, they had to pay half. Not the difference, the WHOLE half. Other than that the only gifts they got were from their mom's "point system gifts" at work. They sound like it's cause they're trying to make ends meet, but in the three years before I married my husband and got to know these people they've bought three new cars, gone through two computers and a laptop, two RV's (brand new), the legendary new leather furniture, a huge room sized grandfather clock, stainless steel kitchen appliances (including the sink and a double oven stove... funny, they've never cooked anything unless it came in a microwave or a crockpot), new blinds and window treatments for each window, a house paint job, couple of cruises... lets see, Jamaica and Barbados are the only I can remember off the top of my head... I'll stop there. But all that for themselves... They never bought any groceries for their kids at the store, just enough for themselves. At 17 years old, he got his first family together Christmas, his first Easter basket, his first family dinner. From my family. I promise I'm not exaggerating either. When my dad told him that even if the two of us didn't work out, he still wanted my husband around, that he was a true friend and a part of the family, my husband broke down and cried and said he'd never felt so loved and accepted in his whole life! Is that not sad and pathetic to know that the people who gave birth to him didn't make him feel that way?? That's pretty messed up in my opinion.

Ok, I'm going off again... I'm sorry about that. I just get pretty emotional and ranty when I get mad or upset. I really don't mean to just get on here and complain so please forgive me, but how can you not be pissed off by people that would treat the person you love like that? Anyway, Slvr, I didn't mean to direct that at you, but as an example I think you can understand that that my prove that they don't really care about the couches.

SwanSpirit,
Ouch. That bites. Sounds like a "my husband's parents thing to do" too. My sympathy goes out to you and anyone with DIFFICULT INLAWS!!!!

My sis's inlaws are wonderfull, funny, loving people! Why am I cursed?!

[Swanspirit]

It was a LONG time ago....... and much water over the dam and under the bridge......
I hope your path is easier than mine .....
HUGS
Swannie

[Yvonne Belisle]

I would make clear that if they give you the couches that you will sell them due to lack of space. If they still insist on giving them to you then you could sell them with a clear conscience.

[slvr_phoenix]

WaterLilly, are you sure the couches don't mean anything to them? In your first post you said, "since they spent however many thousands of dollars on these couches, giving them to us is their idea of a generous present because they spent so much on it", and, "They said they didn't just want to liquidate their house and if we didn't want them, we could just pick "something else" out of their house." If they didn't care about the couches, then why wouldn't they have just agreed to let you sell them the first time? I could easily be wrong, but it sounds to me like the couches do mean something to them.

And I perfectly understand what these people are like and understand how disgusted you are by their behavior. It's sad.

If it were me, I'd just avoid the issue because I wouldn't want to bother getting into a fight with them over it. But if you want to handle it differenty, that's cool too.

So how does your husband think it should be handled?

[NightFire]

I know a great deal about selfish families, and haveremoved myself almost entirely from mine. If they are going to attempt to do things for you just to get leverage (i.e. We'll go to the wedding IF) then you don't need anything to do with them. Nobody in my family ever made any attempt to contact me, or to visit me at any time after I moved out, unless it benifited them. I graduated Hight School, none of my family was there, I graduated college, no family, Left for the Army, no family. I was in the hospital in ICU (Swan, you may remember that :) ) no family. Never even a phone call. I was 2 weeks behind on a car payment to my dad, and he flew 2,000 miles to repo it, while was in ICU. At that point, I decided I will NEVER make contact with any of my family. I still talk to them IF they call or write me, but I won't contact them first anymore. It took me until I was 27 to make that decision. I have never been happier than I am now. Now, before you think that I'm a total ass, I DID visit EVERYONE in my family, every year. I would take my 30 days of leave from the Army, and travel across the entire U.S. to visit brothers, sisters, and parents, and often times I was stationed in other countries. It was not cheap, but money has never really been important to me.

My point here is, if the in-laws have always been self centered, they likely always will be. Get whatever you cqn from them and sever the relationship. If they want to continue to have contact make them come to you, It is YOUR life, not theirs.

If I went off topic, well I do that sometimes :) but I think that it was important to say this. I hope you find your happiness.

[Wyrdsister]

Wow, WaterLilly: while I certainly DO NOT envy your position, I empathize and truly hope that you and your husband have a long and wonderful relationship!

It sounds like your relationship may be easier, at least at the outset, by living without the pressures of his parents. If his parents are ever truly interested in having a relationship with him or you in the future, fine, but for now it sounds like the best thing is to stay away from them. And I'm talking a period of years, here! :D

As for the couches: well, what would be best for you and your husband? Do you and he need an extra thousand dollars? Or can you make do without? Would it be easy or difficult to move those couches out of his parent's place? (I'm guessing, by other examples you've given, that they would make it as difficult as possible! :ugh: ) Would it be worth the hassle to move the couches yourselves and sell them?

I think that whatever is easiest and more peaceful for you and your husband is the best thing for you both to do. If you could use the thousand bucks, then by all means take the couches and sell them! Whether it came from the heart or not (I'm voting 'not'), they did offer them to you and you might as well get something out of the whole deal!! ;) 8O Just set aside thoughts of what the parents might think and do what's best for you two. You know these people are never going to be happy about anything you two do, so it's time to stop giving them your valuable time and energy.

Congratulations to you and your hubby!! :) :) :boing::heartthro :heartthro May the Goddess bless your marriage with lots of Love, Passion, and a whole lot of FUN!! :D :D

Wyrdsister


PS "Christian diet pills?!" Sheesh! :rolleyes:

[Swanspirit]

I am glad you are ok :> I remember very well........... and I also remember the trip west you took as well......
Some of my family is like that ..... and I decided if I have to "accept a role " read scapegoat ....... or endure verbal abuse to be around my family I dont need it at all.......abuse is like emotional and spiritual poison... .. what kind of person would even think of poison and offer it to family members, But they do.....
I dont have to be around people who behave or even think like that. ......makes my life easier and happier .....
I also have a sister who is chronically mentally ill.......which would not be a problem but for the fact that she is also aggressive.... so I cant be around her either ......which has taken many years and much grieving to deal with
I am just recently "mending fences" with my brother..... who has decided to attempt some communication ;and we are doing very well with that..... so sometimes some people eventually figure it out, and relationships change over time...
I am always open to communication , and resolution.....but I wont take abuse....
WaterLilly and Hubby ....I wouldnt even worry about what the couches mean to them if "things" mean more to them than YOU do.....You are always more important than some furniture...
I have another family of my choosing ...My "more really my sister than my blood sister" Tanis.....and my pagan family ........ a small loving group of people that have come to know and love each other ...... we keep in touch dont make demands or grandstand.......come together for ritual or just to be together when we can.......its wonderful.....
You can shape your life as you see fit.....
Blessings
Swannie

[Amora]

Sorry but I thank no one who doesn't deserve it. What would you be thanking them for? Being rude? I couldn't imagine not giving my child the moon on her wedding day. I personally would just disassociate myself with them but, that's just me.

[WaterLilly]

Slvr:
You did make good points. I still think though that the couches don't mean anything to them. Maybe the money they spent on them does, but they were just going to get rid of them even before our wedding came along, so that's one of the reasons I still think that they don't care about them and that there's no emotion behind the gift. Just a clever chance to not have to "spend more money" on a gift for us... that's how they see it. Either we can spend more money, or we can just give them these, cause hey! They were expensive! That should count for something! Here you go kids! Know what I mean?

As for my hubby, he deals best with ignoring situations... so he's done just that. He's just "forgotten" to deal with this and avoids his parents like the plague. I don't think he wants to forever though, I mean, I can tell from his reactions to them that he is angry with them and wants to not have to deal with them, but would not want them out of his life forever. I try to encourage keeping a relationship with them, but he doesn't seem interested, then when I try to avoid having to see them, as an example, trying to find a reason to break a dinner date, he seems very firm on the issue that we need to visit them because we haven't in some time. I'm not quite sure if he even knows how he feels for sure, so I'm kind of just supporting him and waiting it out to find out what he wants to do.

Night Fire:
I can really understand what you say and in my heart feel that way about them. My personal stance goes sort of like this- "They'll be a part of HIS life, they'll be a part of OUR life, but they don't have to be a part of MY life." I'm not gunna go run out and have girly toe-nail painting sleepovers with his mum of my own accord (although she's actually not too bad when you get her on her own, she's just crushed, oppressed, and controlled completely by the father. He's the REAL problem...), but I'm not going to send my husband off to their house alone when they invite us over. That's them being a part of "our" life. Unless of course he doesn't want to go over. Which would rock. Basically, I'm cordial with them as you say you are with your family when need-be, but I'll support any decision he wants to make about them even if it means never seeing them again. (which I personally wouldn't be too sad about!) But, anyway, it's just his choice, and I try to encourage him to keep a relationship with them, but I seriously wish we don't have to have one with them if they keep up like this. Life's too short as you seem to have figured out. :)

Wyrd Sister:
Thanks so much for your blessings, it makes me feel a lot better! I mean that!

Swanspirit, Amora, and everyone:
I really appreciate your support and opinions. It's really nice getting an outside viewpoint.

[Llilith]

Well, IMO, you cant change them at all but you can change how you react to them. If I were you, I would lower my expectations of them so that when/if they ever do something unselfish and good to/for you it will be a pleasant suprise. It wont be a let down anymore when they do something selfish or mean in the future if you look at it this way.