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Earth Walker
September 19th, 2001, 03:48 PM
Once, in U.S. history, an episode of islamic terrorism was
quickly stopped. In 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in
command of a garrison in the Phillipines, he told his boys to
catch some terrorists, to teach them a lesson.
Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to
posts. The soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them,
rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat.
Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would
be contaminated with hog's blood. This would mean that they
could not enter "heaven", even if they died as martyrs.
All but one was shot, and dumped into the grave and the pigs
dumped on top of them.
The lone survivor was allowed to escape, to tell other islamists.
This brought a stop to terrorism in the Phillipines for the next
50 years.
Pointing a gun into the face of muslims won't make them flinch.
Like "Black Jack", let's show them that they won't get to "heaven"
(which they believe has an endless supply of virgins), but instead
will die with the hated pigs of the devils.

Lilu
September 19th, 2001, 06:56 PM
hehe. It's a little extreme. But I like it :)

Lilu

WolfSinger
September 19th, 2001, 07:28 PM
I like it! Hmm. Wonder if we could get video of our military killing a few swine (the four legged variety), dipping the bullets in the blood and loading their weapons, then send the video over there. Probably wouldn't have the same effect, though.

Adrenaline Junkie
September 19th, 2001, 07:28 PM
Not along my line of thinking, however that would make terrorists think twice before committing another disguisting act of cowardice.

Mythrel
September 19th, 2001, 08:29 PM
I think we should doctor up some pictures of bin laden having sex with a pig and drop thousands of them all over afganhistan... see how morale lasts then....

Laiste
September 19th, 2001, 11:12 PM
PIGS vs. TERRORISM!!!
I can see that headline on the New York Post!! Come on let's get real. Your refering to something that supposedly occured almost one hundred years ago!! If only it were that simple, heck I'd give up bacon and eggs and ham and cheese sandwiches for all of eternity if that were the case! haha! I wish it could be that easy what a sight that would be!! I would walk around with a pigs head on a stick if thats what it would take to stop the violence.!!

Dellit Tandannon
September 19th, 2001, 11:35 PM
i had a discussion with one of my classmates today. we were talking about how one terrorist should be killed and burried wearing pig skin.

Shy Hawk
September 20th, 2001, 12:16 AM
Hmm...I don't like any of this at all.
Religion condemns them from being contaminated by pork. Religion does not condone terrorist acts. Using this sort of barbaricism while using their own religion against them....
Well....I don't like it.

Having been raised most of my life a Muslim...I can't imagine anything like this happening to my Muslim neighbor...let alone a family member.

Nowadays I don't believe that would end terrorism...just make them believe (and I think rightfully so) that you are a barbaric monster that is capable of any cruelty. Is that the sort of image we want to put out to the world?

Shy Hawk
September 20th, 2001, 12:21 AM
Disreguard above post...I didn't word it the way I wanted to...uh...but still, know that I disagree. lol....with that said...(carefully ducks out the room)

Swanspirit
September 20th, 2001, 01:47 AM
That could be used to our advantage........ I once cared for an official from a Arab counrty that was sick and in John Hopkins to find out what was wrong. One of the causes they were investigating was that he had broken a taboo and was allowing himself to die......... he was stil not allowed to have a woman care for his more personal needs so the nusrses were there to hand his son the things needed and instruct him in what to do ........
It is a thought about the pigs ..... but I believe the vegetarians would be upset......oh well ........ cant please everyone .........especially in war......then again veggie bacon bits wouldnt do it would they???

Love and Peace
Swannie

WolfSinger
September 20th, 2001, 08:53 AM
Me, personally, I see it as doing whatever is necessary to get them to understand that we won't tolerate these actions any longer. If it would take contaminating them religiously to get them to back off, fine! Killing them won't do it - they would look at that as a favor!

Sorry, but I already have one son in the military and another who will be old enough in 4 years! Damn it, I've already buried one son. I don't want to lose the others! If it takes hitting them like that to get them to stop, great! I would personally volunteer to do it!

They used our freedoms against us. Time to use whatever we need to use to finally get them to understand.

Kaylara
September 20th, 2001, 09:24 AM
This is just sick. Using the taboo's within a person's religion against them?!? WTF? Have we all lost our minds in here? Even if they are terrorists, they are still people. I don't condone in any way what they did, but I mean come on people. Do you realize what you are saying? Doesn't anyone else think that this is just a sick and deranged way at getting back at them? Seriously... I find this thread really disturbing... :(

Kaylara

Kaylara
September 20th, 2001, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by WolfSinger
Me, personally, I see it as doing whatever is necessary to get them to understand that we won't tolerate these actions any longer. If it would take contaminating them religiously to get them to back off, fine! Killing them won't do it - they would look at that as a favor!

Sorry, but I already have one son in the military and another who will be old enough in 4 years! Damn it, I've already buried one son. I don't want to lose the others! If it takes hitting them like that to get them to stop, great! I would personally volunteer to do it!

They used our freedoms against us. Time to use whatever we need to use to finally get them to understand.

Well, my fiance and most of my friends are old enough to be in the military. That doesn't mean that they are automatically going to join.

And I am sorry, I must be out of the loop... Please elaborate on exactly how they used our freedoms against us. Because I really am not seeing it.

Kaylara

Danustouch
September 20th, 2001, 09:47 AM
I agree that these practices would not only be EXTREME, but also barbaric. If we do these things, we BECOME that which we despise. The Taliban hates us because of what WE are. If we use their beliefs against THEM...then we become no better than them. We cannot target their Muslim beliefs. We must target their ACTIONS. If that makes any sense. I do not KNOW the answers to this. I'm afraid that if we bomb afghanistan, or even the rebel camps there, that it will bring further reprisals. However, I do know that we need to do SOMETHING. This, however, CANNOT be the answer. America is a Country which respects the religious beliefs of ALL people. We must remember that the taboo on pork is something which ALL muslims practice, not just the few sick and deranged individuals who have twisted the words of the Quran into Hatred. So by using this taboo, we would likely offend member of the Islamic Religion as a whole, and it could cause QUITE a rebellion. Right now..our relationship with several Muslim nations, is strained at best. But at the moment, we have some cooperation from Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. If we did these things, broke their taboos, and made a mockery out of them, we would surely alienate these countries, as well as the Radical Extremists who we are targeting. This is something we CANNOT afford to do.

There is another reason why I do not agree with these tactics. By doing these things, we insult the Islamic Belief System. By doing these things, we would also...be messing with, in their beliefs, these peoples Souls. Now, I obviosly do NOT support the actions of the Taliban. I think what they did was barbaric, cruel, and horrendous. But when do we begin playing God? These people will be judged by Allah, when they get to the other side, in their beliefs. Only their ALLAH must condemn them to hell, even if we are the ones that SEND them to the other side in the first place. By tainting their blood with Pork, we would be sentencing them to Hell. While most of us are Angry, and rightfully so. While many of us seek vengeance, and wish these people harm, we CANNOT play the role of God. Once we "take them out". Once we "kill them"...our job is done. Then...God/Goddess/Allah/Creator, whatever you call it, takes over. We have NO right to interfere with that process.

Anyway..that is just MY belief. But it is what my heart tells me. When we try to play the role of God...the Role of "Devine", we only bring more trouble upon ourselves...imo.

Danustouch
September 20th, 2001, 09:51 AM
By the way....I have seen several documentaries on Special Ops' forces in the last few days. One of the methods that special ops units use to "Root Out" the problem, is by NOT targeting the leader at first. FIRST they target ALL of his followers, family, friends, support system. They used this with (goddess, i have forgotten his name)..the huge columbian drug lord in the past. First they basically assasinated/jailed/exiled EVERYONE around him. All those that supported him, his family, etc. So eventually....the man had NOWHERE to turn. That is when he was finally caught. IMO, this is what needs to be done with Usama Bin Laden. As long as he has "Forces" and as long as he has "followers", even if we were to capture or kill him, it would NOT stop the terrorism. He would become a martyr to these people, and their movement might even become stronger. So...we must work slowly, and surely, to take out the followers FIRST. That is just my opinion. Seems like that is the ONLY thing that will work.

loopy
September 20th, 2001, 10:09 AM
That is just sick. I can understand wanting a little revenge and all, but come on. It's cruel and unusual punishment.

Even if this practice was adopted, that was nearly 100 years ago, and I would hope our morals have grown or something since then.

Besides, is it really going to stop them, or give them an incentive to press harder, and evidence to their people that we're monsters and need to be killed as soon as possible?

Earth Walker
September 20th, 2001, 10:13 AM
I posted this because it would appeal to the bloodthirsty here,
and it worked.
Personally, it is not something I would condone, and it brings
me to another question....Why was the U.S. in the Phillipines
in the first place? Why does the U.S. have this need to stick its
nose into the affairs of other nations, and since when does the
U.S. assume to have the right to be the world's police?

Illuminatus
September 20th, 2001, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Shy Hawk
Hmm...I don't like any of this at all.
Religion condemns them from being contaminated by pork. Religion does not condone terrorist acts. Using this sort of barbaricism while using their own religion against them....
Well....I don't like it.

Having been raised most of my life a Muslim...I can't imagine anything like this happening to my Muslim neighbor...let alone a family member.

THAT'S THE IDEA!!!!!!!

Religious fanatics are nuts... the normal things that motivate normal, healthy and non-crazy people (fear of our lives, security, our health) don't affect the nuts. Their strings lie elsewhere, beyond the scope of a normal psyche. The solution is to FIND these strings, which lie in irrational, crazy practices like not touching pigs, and PULLING them! If we cannot invoke fear in this life, we invoke fear of the afterlife.


Nowadays I don't believe that would end terrorism...just make them believe (and I think rightfully so) that you are a barbaric monster that is capable of any cruelty. Is that the sort of image we want to put out to the world?

Desecration more barbaric than wholesale murder? Personally, I don't see a problem with it. I mean, Bin Laden already claims that we heathens have desecrated the holy lands just by being there, why not go the extra mile and REALLY do some damage?

- Ill

Myst
September 20th, 2001, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Kaylara
This is just sick. Using the taboo's within a person's religion against them?!? WTF? Have we all lost our minds in here? Even if they are terrorists, they are still people. I don't condone in any way what they did, but I mean come on people. Do you realize what you are saying? Doesn't anyone else think that this is just a sick and deranged way at getting back at them? Seriously... I find this thread really disturbing...

Let me just say I echo those sentiments. I'm extremely disgusted by some of the posts here. Doesn't anyone realize that this kind of hate is what caused the attacks in the first place? How Pagan is it to spread hate like that? I'm ashamed for you.

Swanspirit
September 20th, 2001, 12:39 PM
It would NOT bother me to use that against them ...... no need to kill a pig.........they almost equate women with pigs ......it isnt a desecration of ALL muslims ..... just the ones using their religion as an excuse to wage war....
If the expression of freedom is against their religion...........let them see thousands of womyns faces unveiled..... if it makes them run.... I am not sorry if that is a problem for them........ if that makes me blood thirsty or "sick" in SOME peoples minds........ for the people so eager to judge ......
well then YOU join the commando teams and cross the Afghan border and ferret out and kill the terrorists......with your own two hands......and get back to us on "sick" much later after that...., or perhaps you could just go to New York and help pick up body parts...
That is what I would use "against them" anything that kept them from killing over 5000 people at one go that doesnt KILL other people ....
and as for using our freeedoms against us......... the freedom to come to this country...... no matter what color or SEX you might be.... take flying lessons ......get on a plane ...... and many others..... I dont see what is to misunderstand ...... it is glaringly obvious what freedoms were used ........ to me......
Love and Light
Swannie

Illuminatus
September 20th, 2001, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Willow Raven


Let me just say I echo those sentiments. I'm extremely disgusted by some of the posts here. Doesn't anyone realize that this kind of hate is what caused the attacks in the first place? How Pagan is it to spread hate like that? I'm ashamed for you.

Is it any different than sending "negative justice energy" to them?

Mairwen
September 20th, 2001, 12:59 PM
negative justice energy? wth is that?!

Swanspirit
September 20th, 2001, 01:04 PM
Please keep your hate to yourself.......... who ever is ascribing hatred to others........ there is a BIG difference between hate and self -defense....... and no matter what anyone says.... I am not on the offensive here with hatred.....I am on the defense with inestimable grief and sorrow for the lives already lost ...... and a son in the middle east defending us............... which must be done in my estimation.......and if you cannot do it then at the very least get out of the way of the people who will...... unless you would rather it not be done at all..... or if you would rather do it yourself then by all means step UP......so take your judgements ..... and keep them for yourself ..... opinions are one thing judging others is another......
......DONT PUT YOUR HATE ON ME
It has already been done by others... or cant you see that........
Love and Peace
Swannie

Myst
September 20th, 2001, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus


Is it any different than sending "negative justice energy" to them?

I don't know sir, I didn't agree with that one either ;)

And on the judgement thing - everyone judges, other people have judged here, and I have judged differently. We make our own damn decisions, and honey, if someone doesn't like my opinions, they are free to disagree and/or put me on ignore.

loopy
September 20th, 2001, 01:10 PM
What? How the heck is it on the defense to make someone suffer and think they're going to spend eternity in hell just before you kill them? That, to me, is spreading extra hate. It's a war, people die, yes, but it's that extra step, the smearing bullets in pig's fat, that is the hatred and the offensive, not defensive.

Swanspirit
September 20th, 2001, 01:15 PM
Why not have the bullets made by women......why kill a pig.......
if you dont understand this consider it a koan.......
Love and Peace
Swannie

loopy
September 20th, 2001, 01:25 PM
Ok, never mind, I think I get it now. Had someone explain it to me. :) I'm not too good with following these jumping thoughts, lol. :) :D

Blessings. :)

Shy Hawk
September 20th, 2001, 01:30 PM
I told myself I'd stay outta this...(cough) so I'll make it quick and just stick in one little thing.
Taking those extreme actions wouldn't just be against the people who did this. It would effect the WHOLE Muslim population of the WORLD.
I know that for a fact, if my father, a patriot, and a Arab and a Muslim, were to see a video of that on the television...well first he'd throw up. Then, he'd probably hate the US government, and probably leave the country. That would start internal conflict...believe me. Plus, it would set a bad example for the people of the United States that ALREADY hate Muslims.
And, the pork thing...it's really really big for Muslim peoples. You can't sit at a table where pork is served, you can't sell it in your stores (nor nothing made from a pig)....That is not only a taboo, it is haraam, which means specifically FORBIDDEN. That would turn off ALL Muslim nations, and probably many Jewish nations aswell, being that they are nonpork too. This would serve as a very bad move, politically, and ethically.
I hope I made some sense...it's early in the morning for me...
~Shy

By the by, women are sacred, not disgusting...it's a common Western misconception...it's easy to say because you've grown up outside of the religion...
"a woman can't be touched on her menses, they think she's dirty. A woman's hair can't be touched, they are ahamed of her." It's all much deeper than that...and besides, these are cultural restraints, not religious ones.
You'll notice that Muslim women from Afganistan and Saudi Arabia are in full hijab, with nothing showing except perhaps their eyes (and maybe not). However, Muslim women from Lebanan and Jordan wear exactly what many of you wore yesterday, regular clothes.
The issue of women's rights is a highly debated one in Muslim society. But it's not fair, nor accurate to say that Muslim men view women in any one way. You are only seeing one side of it,...and usually the influence is cultural.

Swanspirit
September 20th, 2001, 01:33 PM
It does occur to me that my responses are tempered by the fact that my son is already over there and doing Goddess knows what..... I have worried off ten pounds........
but here is the deal.......... lets make this UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL......
Someone comes into your house by complete surprise and kills a few people , you are in the kitchen with a can of bacon grease drippings......and YOU KNOW if you throw it or even threaten to throw it ........ they will run away........
What do you do????
OR do you use psychological warfare on a fanatical sociopathic killer .......by letting them know that they have CONSEQUENCES wrapped up in killing YOU ...... or your loved ones.....
Love and Light
Swannie

loopy
September 20th, 2001, 01:36 PM
Swan, that's slightly different. :) In the situation in the article, the men were already captured. They were being made to dig their own graves and wait for death. And THEN they were tortured. That's not exactly the same as a split-second self-defense. :)

Myst
September 20th, 2001, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Shy Hawk
By the by, women are sacred, not disgusting...it's a common Western misconception...it's easy to say because you've grown up outside of the religion...
"a woman can't be touched on her menses, they think she's dirty. A woman's hair can't be touched, they are ahamed of her." It's all much deeper than that...and besides, these are cultural restraints, not religious ones.

When I was studying about different cultures I believe I learned that women wore these things because they are so sacred they are not to even be seen by anyone but their husband, et cetera. I'm sure I haven't gathered exactly all of the culture involved, but I was pretty sure it wasn't because women there are *dirty*.

And regardless, it is not fair to condemn a whole group of people because someone *thinks* they think women are dirty.

*And*, that's not the issue at hand. The point is that either way people here are condoning letting a whole group of people beleive they're going to hell before dying because of a few people in that group who might've done wrong. It smacks very closely of the Witch trials and Holocaust now doesn't it?

Swanspirit
September 20th, 2001, 01:47 PM
But I think the question is do we do something along these lines........ I think that we could use something to give us psychological leverage........to impose consequences where there dont appear to be any ??? The idea of pig bombs doesnt exactly fly........ ( ooo gawdess that was baaad)
but I so want to stop these people....., and I think that people are scrambling for ideas.....
some arent appealing.......some experts are saying the reason we didnt have any intelligence on this event was that we werent willing to "get our hands dirty".........and pay operatives that were less than desirable......
So the ethical questions are important......
and they are being proposed along with the feasible and potentially effective ones....
HUGS
Swannie

Illuminatus
September 20th, 2001, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by loopy
What? How the heck is it on the defense to make someone suffer and think they're going to spend eternity in hell just before you kill them? That, to me, is spreading extra hate. It's a war, people die, yes, but it's that extra step, the smearing bullets in pig's fat, that is the hatred and the offensive, not defensive.

That's just half of the coin. They didn't do it to make them spend an eternity in hell. They let one escape, remember? The entire ritual served as a DETERRANT against further terrorist acts. Quite well, too as it turned out. These people don't fear death, so it's a poor deterrant. Torture isn't effective either, since they know they will have release in the form of death. Eternal damnation, now THAT's what makes them run like little children!

I don't care WHAT the US has to soak their bullets in - cyanide, napalm, .45 caliber grease or pig's fat, hell I don't care if we have to serve up howitzer rounds with a light white wine vinegrette!!!! If it scares the bejesus out of a would-be terrorist, it's done it's job.

- Ill

Illuminatus
September 20th, 2001, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Swanspirit
Why not have the bullets made by women......why kill a pig.......
if you dont understand this consider it a koan.......
Love and Peace
Swannie

I think that if they see a woman's face who is not their wife... they stone the woman. They don't go to hell, the woman does. Slightly different, but your fixation on that particular taboo won't have afghanis bailing out of machine gun nests fearing for their eternal souls.

Laiste
September 20th, 2001, 06:24 PM
So from what I gather MURDER is ok and they will not go to hell for that. OPPRESSION of women is ok and they will not go to hell for that either!! But PORK is not ok?? I'm sorry this is ridiculous.

Mairwen
September 20th, 2001, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Willow Raven
When I was studying about different cultures I believe I learned that women wore these things because they are so sacred they are not to even be seen by anyone but their husband, et cetera. I'm sure I haven't gathered exactly all of the culture involved, but I was pretty sure it wasn't because women there are *dirty*.

I believe you're right, Willow. :rolleyes:

Mairwen
September 20th, 2001, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Laiste
So from what I gather MURDER is ok and they will not go to hell for that. OPPRESSION of women is ok and they will not go to hell for that either!! But PORK is not ok?? I'm sorry this is ridiculous.

totally 150% agreed!

talamh
September 20th, 2001, 11:30 PM
It seems to me there is a mixing up of the two concepts of "Muslim" and "terrorist" and treating the two as one, single entity. What we are talking about here are terrorists.... who follow a particular, fundamentalist interpretation of Islam.

There are many different interpretations of Islamic law and practice.... just as there are many different types of Christians and Jews... and Pagans.

That's the first issue i see here.

The second is this - desecration of someone's religious beliefs won't stop terrorist activities...and would totally alienate people within and without of the USA who are also Muslim.

Emotions are running high everywhere right now... but that is all the more reason to base opinions... and decisions... on understanding and fact.... not raw emotion and speculation.

Perhaps people who think the origional strategy of using prohibitions against pork as a method of intimidation might want to read up a little on what the Muslim faith is, it's principles and practices.. it's history.. and some of the many forms and intrepretations it takes in todays world.

And one last thought... in a country that values freedom and justice so highly... remember there is still no proof that any one has shown us that Osama bin Laden actually masterminded the attacks last week. We can't abandon principles and the rule of law to defend ourselves against terrorist attacks or we become terrorists as well....

Yes.. it must be stopped.... but at *any* price?? Hatred can not be overcome and defeated by hatred. It can only be increased. We must be very careful. bb talamh

Swanspirit
September 21st, 2001, 01:58 AM
The bloodthirsty and the desecrators and the "disgusting and disturbing" arent REALLY posting here at MysticWicks........ maybe SOME "mistaken wiccans" are.......but the REAL bloodthirsty people have already done their dameage......
The people posting here are only responding to a horror greater than they have seen in their lives.. and hopefully greater than they ever will again............... and
this event held up as an example in this thread that took place so long ago used against terrorists was a military action......used against a specific group ........
Saying one thing and then using the responses as a way to determine who is "bloodthirsty" is a set - up.....and not in the least valid........let me repreat that ..... not in the least valid..... and jumping on the band wagon as an opportunity to judge people who are only discussing something in a list....well if it lifts your self esteem for a moment.....or somehow makes you feel better.....it is a poor way to bolster a fragile ego...... maybe actually helping out as a volunteer would do more good ( just a suggestion) .
Myself...... I dont see this entire discussion as having a point....anymore.... but then I have been working overtime......so others could work elsewhere , and I am tired and I have a son living and working in the middle east.......I am just grateful the country he is in has decided to fully support the USA .......to me that information has weight and importance......something that bears on how the future will actually turn out.......
and one last thought ......on this..... from me ..if my "freedoms " as a human being are taboo to someone who wants to kill people because of those freedoms..... then let them be used as deterrents.........
Love and light
Swannie

Laiste
September 21st, 2001, 09:32 AM
Hear Hear!!! Swannie thanks for saying that!
I would like to know what people out there have actually done to help with this situation, besides try to inflict hatred on others. And bash the US government, who I always don't agree with, but who needs our support at the moment. I personally have made monetary donations, which was a sacrifice for my family. My grandmother just passed away and we donated money from her insurance check to the Red Cross. My family took up a collection and we sent clothing to the rescue workers. We are all (I would think) horrified and angry and confused about the attack and people being petty does not help matters it only infuses more horror and anger and confusion. We are not animals, you can hang some bait out there, but most of us will not jump. However, we will state how we feel. It is perfectly NORMAL to express ways to GET BACK at someone who has hurt and disrupted your everyday life. It is also normal to express ways to torture those who just days ago MURDERED OVER 5000 HUMAN BEINGS ON U.S. SOIL!!!!

WE SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!!

Myst
September 21st, 2001, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by talamh anEiac
Perhaps people who think the origional strategy of using prohibitions against pork as a method of intimidation might want to read up a little on what the Muslim faith is, it's principles and practices.. it's history.. and some of the many forms and intrepretations it takes in todays world.
...
Yes.. it must be stopped.... but at *any* price?? Hatred can not be overcome and defeated by hatred. It can only be increased. We must be very careful. bb talamh

Very very well said, and very true! I think you've touched on the important points here quite clearly and succinctly without personal biases or anger. Brilliant!

Let's not let anger get in the way of clear thought.

Helping out can include sending money, clothing, gifts, giving blood, and volunteering time (yes even here in Canada, where I am). Encouraging people to help; what a wonderful way to show your patriotic nature ;)

SpikesPet5150
September 21st, 2001, 01:47 PM
Swannie...
I'm behind ya.... I feel exactly what you feel (except with the son thing, don't have one of those)... and every single one of our military men and women who are over there fighting, or who will be soon, desperately need us to band together. They don't want to be the "bad guys". They want to protect our country. They just want to protect us.

Maybe, instead of actually *using* the pig fat, they could just pretend to. That way, we aren't really damning them... we're just scaring them.

When people say the terrorists attacked America.. they aren't really meaning terrorists attacked the entire United States... America is an idea, a promise. They attacked that. They hit right at the heart of the people, whether you knew someone who was injured or killed or not, you were affected by this horrible tragedy. They performed the most cowardly act I have ever seen, and maybe it's just me, but I will never feel safe again until I know they're gone. Who's to say that next time they strike it *has* to be in a big city? Plans go wrong... those planes could have easily went down in your area, yes, even the Canadians, right down on your home. How's that for scary?
~Bree

loopy
September 21st, 2001, 02:01 PM
Maybe, instead of actually *using* the pig fat, they could just pretend to. That way, we aren't really damning them... we're just scaring them.

I don't think anyone who doesn't follow their faith actually believes they *are* damning them. It *is* a scare tactic, not some sort of curse.

:)

Illuminatus
September 21st, 2001, 02:18 PM
Check out this link.

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/grease.htm

This gun has the nickname "Grease Gun" - because the .45 ammunition it fires was kept coated with grease to prevent misfires and what not. It's basicly an update of the 1920's gangster "Tommy gun" with the big circular magazine you see in movies. This gun is still in use today by many US national guard, even though a new one hasn't been built in 30 years.

Now, how ridiculously easy would it be to coat these bullets in rendered pig's fat instead of whatever grease they used in vietnam. Then spread the word to islamics that Americans shoot unclean bullets that send you straight to Hell or whatever crazy afterlife they believe in. Now THAT's an effective deterrant.

- Ill

Shy Hawk
September 21st, 2001, 02:24 PM
Normal?....hmm..

Xois
October 31st, 2001, 12:15 PM
Well

in any case, it appears to be a hoax!

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm

Myst
October 31st, 2001, 12:19 PM
I still think its disgusting.

Xois
October 31st, 2001, 12:25 PM
Myst

Well, I agree, but it is just the human desire to find a simple answer to a very complex problem!

:D

Xois

Myst
October 31st, 2001, 12:26 PM
True.

Agh we agreed twice today!

Xois
October 31st, 2001, 12:27 PM
I think the sky might fall! :D

Dellit Tandannon
November 1st, 2001, 12:58 PM
where's chicken little?

Shy Hawk
November 1st, 2001, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Laiste
MURDERED OVER 5000 HUMAN BEINGS ON U.S. SOIL!!!!

Maybe I'm the only one, but I find statements like this utterly rediculous. As if the fact that they were killed on US soil is so important. The fact is that people died. Why do people constantly think that the death of an American is somehow worse than the death of a non American?

People died, American and non American. Let's not think that American lives are worth double the lives of others.

This just irks me.

Dellit Tandannon
November 1st, 2001, 01:28 PM
it does matter. it woke up the people of this country to the fact that we're not invincible within our borders. it was an extremely rude awakening. i agree with you that 5000 deaths is horrible anywhere.

Kaylara
November 1st, 2001, 01:34 PM
Call me crazy, but I seem to remember a huge earth quake hitting India last year, and something 20-30thousand people died. And there was hardly any notice by the western world. What does this tell you about our way of seeing the world? Are we the most nuerotic country on the nation, suffering from cronic Hysteronic disorder? Or do we just feel that we are superior or special when compared to the other countries in the world? Why should an american life be worth more than any other human life on this planet.

Why can we accept and adore people who defiled anothers religious beliefs, even if they were terrorists? If someone did something like that in this country it would cause a complete outcry. Why is it ok if it happens in other countries, but not if it happens to us? What the hades is wrong with us? Are we really that self-serving, conceited, and self-centered?

Kaylara

Laiste
November 1st, 2001, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Shy Hawk


Maybe I'm the only one, but I find statements like this utterly rediculous. As if the fact that they were killed on US soil is so important. The fact is that people died. Why do people constantly think that the death of an American is somehow worse than the death of a non American?

People died, American and non American. Let's not think that American lives are worth double the lives of others.

This just irks me.

Your putting words in my mouth irks ME!!!

Hey! Wait a minute...I never said that American lives were more important or valuable than other lives!! You are putting words in my mouth that were simply not spoken!! Please do not try to make me out to be an ignorant, unfeeling person! Someone who only cares about my own! I am not like that...this assumption is unfair! You don't know me so you really can't assume that I don't care about anyone outside of the U.S.! By thinking that way and stating it you cause undue hard feelings! I feel for people outside of my country! I am always horrified by any atrocity that kills people of any culture from any country!!! My whole point of stating that it happened on U.S. soil was made because of what the U.S. is supposed to represent...The land of the free...And YES the fact that the attacks occured on American soil is important!! For me it is important because I live here...my family and friends live here!! Your statement took a lot of nerve and upset me very much...thanks:(

Laiste
November 1st, 2001, 02:50 PM
Oh and Shy...notice how I stated HUMAN BEINGS not Americans...I am very well aware of the fact that people from many different cultures and countries worked at the WTC!! Some of them were my friends!! Luckily all my friends survived..but not without scars...of the emotional kind!

Laiste
November 1st, 2001, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Laiste
Hear Hear!!! Swannie thanks for saying that!
I would like to know what people out there have actually done to help with this situation, besides try to inflict hatred on others. And bash the US government, who I always don't agree with, but who needs our support at the moment. I personally have made monetary donations, which was a sacrifice for my family. My grandmother just passed away and we donated money from her insurance check to the Red Cross. My family took up a collection and we sent clothing to the rescue workers. We are all (I would think) horrified and angry and confused about the attack and people being petty does not help matters it only infuses more horror and anger and confusion. We are not animals, you can hang some bait out there, but most of us will not jump. However, we will state how we feel. It is perfectly NORMAL to express ways to GET BACK at someone who has hurt and disrupted your everyday life. It is also normal to express ways to torture those who just days ago MURDERED OVER 5000 HUMAN BEINGS ON U.S. SOIL!!!!

I am quoting myself here to make my point to all those who are putting words in my mouth! Read my post again...the entire thing...not just what you wanted to point out!! I have no problem with people having different opinion..but I do have a problem with people calling my words ridiculous...I find that a direct insult! And that is not appropriate or allowed on this forum, according to the rules that EVERYONE is SUPPOSED to abide by!!!

WE SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!!

Myst
November 1st, 2001, 03:00 PM
Ok everybody needs to chill out.

I think, Laiste, that Shy meant she didn't get why people always have to mention it's on American soil. She wasn't trying to say that's what YOU meant but that she knows a lot of people who seem to feel that way. What she meant is that a lot of people who say "so many people died on American soil" seem to stress that it's on American soil like it makes a big difference, she did NOT mean to suggest that's what you were saying. It was more of a general comment on people who act like that makes a big difference, not to put words in your mouth.

So yeah, it's all good, so let's get back to the topic at hand.

Laiste
November 1st, 2001, 03:15 PM
I'm sorry but I'm going OT again...She DID direct the comment at me by using my quote! If she wanted to make a general statement about the people with those views...she should not have quoted me! she could have simply stated what she feels. Instead she said my comment was "utterly ridiculous"! Therfore I replied and was forced to defend my statement and my opinion...without stepping on someone elses opinion!

Demeter
November 1st, 2001, 04:21 PM
Once upon a time, the British had a colony in India, and had both Hindu and Moslem troops in their armed forces. At that time, in order to load a rifle, the soldier had to bite the end off a grease-coated cartridge and put the opened cartridge in the rifle. Somehow a rumor got started. Hindu soldiers were told that the cartridges were coated in beef fat. Moslem soldiers were told that the cartridges were coated in pork fat. The net result was a very bloody rebellion, as both Hindu and Moslem soldiers revolted. And lots of people died.

Shortly after 9/11, I was looking at a site of Q&A about Islam. A Muslim man wrote in, very concerned because someone had told him that if a Muslim was buried in a pig skin, the Muslim would go to Hell. The Muslim cleric who answered the question told him that that was totally incorrect, that nothing that was done to the body after death could affect the progress of the soul. How things done to the body before death affect the progress of the soul, I don't know. Nobody asked that particular question.

I believe that the upper echelons of the terrorist movement are sophisticated enough to recognize the difference, and to realize that mere contact, however intimate, with pig parts would not in and of itself condemn the faithful to hell. It is forbidden to have voluntary contact -- I'm sure there is a way to purify oneself from having involuntary contact. Perhaps someone will let us know?

In any event, even threatening to use pig bombs or any such treatment would not intimidate the educated. Repulse them, yes, but not intimidate. It is the lower levels, the great majority of uneducated people in Muslim countries, who would not be able to make the differentiation, as they did not in India. And if we did use this kind of religious terrorism (and I deliberately chose the word) against them, we would lose the moral high ground, lose our allies, and most probably trigger a much larger, more general uprising.

What we need to do is just go in there, roust them out of their caves, shoot them like the rabid dogs they are, and then get our true revenge: send aid to their countries, educate their women and children, bring prosperity back to their countries, and do it all without violating their religious beliefs. People are a lot less likely to follow fanatics if their bellies are full and their children are happy. (Wishful thinking, I know ....)

Shy Hawk
November 1st, 2001, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Myst
Ok everybody needs to chill out.

I think, Laiste, that Shy meant she didn't get why people always have to mention it's on American soil. She wasn't trying to say that's what YOU meant but that she knows a lot of people who seem to feel that way. What she meant is that a lot of people who say "so many people died on American soil" seem to stress that it's on American soil like it makes a big difference, she did NOT mean to suggest that's what you were saying. It was more of a general comment on people who act like that makes a big difference, not to put words in your mouth.

This is what I meant. By the by, I am not trying to guess what you meant, or what kind of person you are. I was only commenting on the statement you made specifically. And, not all of which were directed at you.

I'm in favor of getting back on topic though.

EasternPriest
November 2nd, 2001, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by talamh anEiac
And one last thought... in a country that values freedom and justice so highly... remember there is still no proof that any one has shown us that Osama bin Laden actually masterminded the attacks last week. We can't abandon principles and the rule of law to defend ourselves against terrorist attacks or we become terrorists as well....



The fact that you or I have have not been publicly shown the proof does not mean the proof does not exist. The governments of the world do not have to share the proof with you or I before they may act on that proof.

It would appear, from logical conclusion, that the proof exists. Otherwise, the US would not have the international cooperation regarding Osma bin Laden that it does have. This is particularly true for the arab nations that are supporting our initiative.

Da Witch
November 3rd, 2001, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Shy Hawk
.

Nowadays I don't believe that would end terrorism...just make them believe (and rightfully so) that you are a barbaric monster that is capable of any cruelty.

I have to agree with that statement (except for the rightfully so).

I don't think that will stop the terrorism. It will more than likely enrage them even more and make them think that their cause (killing the enemy) is now more important than ever. They are alread calling this the New Jihad. Doing that would just give them more reason to terrorize us and other countries.

Illuminatus
February 28th, 2002, 03:37 PM
www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2002/2/26/141807

Euphoria
February 28th, 2002, 06:46 PM
Call me crazy, but I seem to remember a huge earth quake hitting India last year, and something 20-30thousand people died. And there was hardly any notice by the western world.

Ok sorry but at that point i was in britain for three weeks and let me say that there was MAJOR media coverage as well as a MAJOR aid effort with all sorts of things from fundraiser to charity drives and just genoristy

Charysma