Disheartened...

[Kaylara]

I have found it very saddening how the mainstream media and the government have been making people in the Middle East seem less than human. (Please note that I in no way condone what was done.) But the media lately has been making people over there, even the ones who have nothing to do with this seem like they are less than human. Personally I think that this is so that if the US Military goes over there and kills many innocent people that the US People will not be as upset because they are all guilty.

I really am not liking this at all. It is wrong to dehumanize anyone. When you dehumanize people, (that is make them seem like they are less human) than it is okay to do with them what you want to. Such was the case with African Americans who were enslaved, and also with the Jews in Germany during WWII.

What do you think about this?

Kaylara

[Lilu]

Yeah Kay, I agree... I received this email today from a reader, which I think really puts into perspective what the Afghan people are going through right now:

Dear Friends,

The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant
people I know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen.

Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.

-Gary T.

Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not
even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of
ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the
Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt,
incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations
estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.

There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying
these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land
mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary

[Kaylara]

I saw that at www.alternet.org

Here's a good article I also found there:

The Racism of American Warmongering
Tim Wise, AlterNet
September 17, 2001
Viewed on September 19, 2001

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, it looks as if the good people of the rural U.S. should be breathing a sigh of relief right about now. After all, with the President and most Americans itching to bomb any place where terrorists might be hiding, one can only imagine the kind of wrath that would have been brought down upon the heads of folks in Iowa, Nebraska, Wyoming or Mississippi had the guilty parties been white boys with crew-cuts, like Tim McVeigh.


All this talk of "Kill the Arabs," "carpet bomb 'em back into the stone age," or "get the ragheads" would have to have been replaced with "Kill the Crackers," "bomb 'em back to the 'Dust Bowl,'" and "get the trailer trash."


But the fact is, we all know that such a scenario would never have transpired, and not because white boys aren't capable of inflicting mass death. They certainly are. McVeigh proved that, if for some folks Hitler, Stalin, Andrew Jackson, Lyndon Johnson and Dick Nixon weren't sufficient to make the case. But rather, because the folks who are so quick to collectivize the responsibility and the payback when the perps are dark-skinned or "foreign," are just as quick not to do so when white boys are the ones committing mass murder or engaging in terroristic activities. In the wake of Oklahoma City, none of the people who are now calling for war against Afghanistan even suggested targeting white supremacist groups and militias for destruction, let alone bombing the cornfields of "middle America" in the hopes of taking out a few anti-government types.


Bottom line: enemies who look different, speak a different language, or practice a different religion are lots easier to view as the "other." As somehow cutoff from the common humanity of which we consider ourselves a part. And so we speak now of killing Arabs indiscriminately, of not differentiating between the guilty and the innocent (ironically, the precise mentality of whomever carried out last week's attacks), and winning a war, which we claim has been officially engaged. But we would have said none of these things had the perpetrators been internal extremists. We said none of these things about those who fit the descriptions of Tim McVeigh, or Terry Nichols. We would never have heard columnists calling for profiling of white men, the way that reactionary crank and wanna-be pin-up girl of the right, Ann Coulter, called for the same against Arabs and Muslims this week.


Actually, that wasn't all she said: she also opined that it should be the role of the United States to invade "their" countries, kill "their" leaders, and "convert them to Christianity." If these were the words of an Imam, calling for the forced conversion of Southern Baptists to Islam, we would call them the fanatical ramblings of a jihad-happy madman. But when the fashion-conscious and attractive (though clearly Snickers-deprived) Coulter says it, she finds mass support for her nuttiness, gets her call for a new round of Crusades published on the website of the National Review, and will remain a regular commentator for such paragons of journalistic virtue as Fox News.


So too Jerry Falwell, who for some unknown reason people still take seriously despite his penchant for committing random acts of serial stupidity. His latest? Laying the blame for the attacks on New York and DC at the feet of the ACLU (for "throwing God out of the schools"), "the abortionists" ("because God will not be mocked"), as well as "pagans," "feminists," and "the gays and lesbians." After offering this truly maniacal glob of pedantic crap, Falwell's partner in fundamentalist lunacy, Pat Robertson, chimed in to blame "pornography on the internet," abortion, and the removal of the ten commandments from courthouses. God, according to these twin towers of intellectual mendacity and biblically bankrupt spirituality, is "lifting his protection from us," as our comeuppance for secular humanism.


It makes me think back to what Barry Goldwater said about Falwell in 1981, when the rotund little preacher asked all "good Americans" to rise up in opposition to the nomination of Sandra Day O'Connor to the Supreme Court (since, after all, the Court was no place for a lady). "All good Americans,' Goldwater intoned, 'should rise up and give Jerry Falwell a kick in the ass." Precisely, and now two decades overdue.


Funny how all the discussion of religious fanaticism among certain followers of Islam has led us to overlook the fanaticism of certain Christians who are now calling for blood. One has to imagine that if Jesus was here today they would call him a pussy for all that "turn the other cheek" stuff. And while I can't answer the question that so many self-proclaimed followers of Christ ask when they wear their "What Would Jesus Do?" armbands, I feel pretty confident that I know what he wouldn't do. He wouldn't be saying things like: "let's shove a couple dozen cruise missiles up their ass," or going out and spraypainting "**** Islam" on mosques, or screaming about the "sand ******s" while guzzling beer at some sports bar. And for that matter, he wouldn't be standing around chanting "U.S.A, U.S.A." at a memorial service, in an attempt to turn it into a jingoistic pep rally.


The events of the past week have brought out the best in people and the worst: on the one hand, the rescue workers, diligently seeking for any signs of life amidst perhaps a million tons of rubble; yet, on the other, the cacophony of voices calling for revenge. Oh sure, they insist it isn't about that, but rather, "justice." They insist they want more than merely the continued spilling of blood, and that striking back has more purpose than merely proving how tough we are. But ask them what that purpose is, and how they think massive military retaliation can actually make us more safe, to say nothing of the safety of others the world over, and their faces go blank, or become contorted with anger, as they shout: "well, we have to do something. We can't just sit here and let them get away with it!"


But "doing something" is not a valid pretext for unleashing war. And justice requires that we carefully consider the difference between responsible parties and innocent ones. Just as one would not think it "just" to level an entire neighborhood in search of one serial killer who might be living in the area, so too is it unjust to speak of turning much of the Arab world into a parking lot, in search of the few persons actually behind the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.


Not only would such a disproportionate response be morally suspect, it would be irresponsible from a security perspective as well. It would leave us all less safe, as millions more in the Arab world came to see the U.S. as a bully, unconcerned about innocent lives, Muslim holy sites, or world peace. And ten years hence, or maybe less, they would understandably retaliate in kind. What is most ironic about all of this, is that such a scenario -- the West and Islam locked in mortal combat -- is exactly what the Osama bin Ladens of the world have always wanted. It is a trap. A trap rejected by the vast majority of Arabs, and of Muslims wherever they may be, but one in which they too will be caught up if we take the bait.


It's really quite simple: we couldn't kill all of "them" even if doing so was ethically acceptable, which of course it isn't. And those who don't die, who would look around and see their nations leveled, their houses gone, their family members incinerated, would at that point most certainly feel that they had nothing to lose by getting even. And there is no more dangerous member of any society than the one who thinks he has nothing to lose. Desperation doesn't make for very sound judgment, whether the desperation of the immiserated in the so-called third world, or that of the most powerful, and yet often least original people on the planet.


And so what does that leave us with? The fact is, I don't know. And neither do you. And why we can't just say that, admit our frailties and uncertainties and ignorance, is beyond me. That we demand quick and easy answers is indicative of our cultural attachment to instant gratification: got a headache, take an aspirin; overweight, get liposuction; upset about something, take Prozac. Don't think, don't analyze, just do it. It is Nike slogan as national mantra. And it is the prelude to international slaughter.


No wonder so much of the world looks at America with contempt and at Americans as spoiled children. First, we train terrorists the world over, including bin Laden, because we had to "get the commies" at all costs, even if it meant supporting dictators, fundamentalists, and murderers. Then we support corrupt and brutal regimes that trample the rights of their citizens. Then we fund and support an illegal occupation of Palestinian land, and contribute to the deaths of a million or more in Iraq from bombing and sanctions. Then, we exhibit our arrogance by withdrawing from international treaties and forums when the going gets tough or issues get raised that we don't want to discuss.


This is not to say that any of these things, no matter how irresponsible or even criminal warrant an act the likes of what we saw September 11th. But there is something to be said for understanding why no one likes you. If all the other kids in the sandbox think you're a thug and a bully, then after a while you'd best stop trying to beat them all into submission, or thinking that they are the problem, and instead, begin to turn some of that analysis inward. That's what you would do, anyway, if you wanted to actually get to the bottom of the conflict on the playground. If, on the other hand, your main concern were showing what a badass you were, then maybe this wouldn't matter much to you at all. And in that case, you would set out to show those other kids who was boss, who was king of the hill. You would continue to provoke them, to attack them, and then act shocked when they hit back.


That kind of behavior is unbecoming enough when children engage in it. When adults with explosives do it, the immature becomes deadly. This is no game. There is no "winner" despite the blustery rhetoric of our frat-boy-in-chief. And unless we begin to fundamentally alter the way we as a nation operate around the world, we are in for many years of violence, and counterviolence, and empty platitudes, and flag waving, and body bags. And if that happens, it won't merely be the fault of those who attack us from outside, but also the fault of those who were the enemies of justice, equality, and peace on the inside of the American empire. There will be more than enough blame to go around.


Tim Wise is a Nashville-based writer, lecturer and activist. He can be reached at tjwise@mindspring.com.

[threenorns]

my dad sent this, which quite astounded me, since he can be one of the most bigoted, racist, bowery boys i've ever met:

The War Prayer, by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.

It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths.

The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation -- God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory -- An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness.

With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!" The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place.

During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention.

"He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory -- must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen. (After a pause.)

"Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

----------------------------


Freethought Publishing Group (www.ftpg.net)

[Laiste]

Kaylara,

I totally agree with what you are saying. It is so wrong and saddens me as well. However, what do we do with all the other feelings we Americans, who have never lived through or experienced such ultimate violence? Where do we put all the anger and confusion it stirs up to the surface of our souls? I'm sure you too struggle with these questions. Where do we go from here when it is totally out of ouf hands? None of us have the answer to any of these questions, at least none of us here in this realm.

May the Goddess be with us all in our great time of need.

[threenorns]

Originally posted by Laiste
Kaylara,

However, what do we do with all the other feelings we Americans, who have never lived through or experienced such ultimate violence? Where do we put all the anger and confusion it stirs up to the surface of our souls?




isn't that what gods and goddesses, meditation, yoga, etc are for?

if ppl truly are as "faithful" as they profess to be, then targetting other ppl simply wouldn't enter their minds.

this rage and hate and confusion is merely a trap of Disorder -- while ppl buy into it, Disorder will continue to grow at the expense of Order.

what bothers me the most is that it's the women who are being targetted, not the men! the women are targetted because they are instantly recognizable and they are generally too meek and downtrodden to defend themselves.

when i go to toronto, i plan on wearing a head-dress like a muslim woman's -- NOT to show support for the taliban (which i have interesting plans for that include pork, bacon, miniskirts, red lipstick, rock music, and the removal of the right hand) but to show support for the innocent of ALL faiths and races.

(i *pity* the poor sucker who tries to take me on, thinking (s)he's got another meek liddle female to harass!)

[silvermoon]

..This is what I have been fearing since the terrorists acts in NY and Washington that the oppressed and helpless people of the middle East would somehow be lumped together with the monsters who perpetrated these heinous acts. These people have been starved by the west and oppressed by the regimes that "govern" :rolleyes: these countries thus the innocent people are exhausted and have no strength to make a stand. Because people are arab, moslem and so far away from most of the west, it seems as though the governments, people and media of the west seem to demonise and dehumanise these people to justify actions of the past, present and future.... While I DO NOT CONDONE THE ACTIONS OF THE TERRORISTS IN NY AND WASHINGTON, I hope that the thrist for vengeance doesn't get in the way of justice as there is a fine line between the two.......

silvermoon

[Laiste]

Originally posted by threenorns



isn't that what gods and goddesses, meditation, yoga, etc are for?

Laistes' Response...

Well certainly, I personally have been doing all of the above. But what of those who are so wrapped up in this, like the voulenteers who are in the midst of terror. My brother in law for one, who worked over a torso and arm for hours trying to fing the rest of the body parts! What of the victims families who are still in such a state of shock that they cannot find peace at the moment because they are still wondering the streets of NYC searching desparately for thier loved ones.



if ppl truly are as "faithful" as they profess to be, then targetting other ppl simply wouldn't enter their minds.


Response....

I agree! No truly peacful or "faithful" person wants violence. But how come it is ok for other countries to use thier religions to destroy others simply because of thier religion. I do not want a war! I stand to possibly loose many close personal friends to this war! I pray everyday that it will not happen!



this rage and hate and confusion is merely a trap of Disorder -- while ppl buy into it, Disorder will continue to grow at the expense of Order.


Response...

Yes! the cycle of violelnce must be broken! Who has the answer?



what bothers me the most is that it's the women who are
being targetted, not the men! the women are targetted because they are instantly recognizable and they are generally too meek and downtrodden to defend themselves.


response...

Since I was in High School almost 15 years ago I have been rallying and getting petitions together to show our outrage for the mistreatment of women around the world. In recent years I do the same via email. I wish more people would rally against this maybe a change will come about!



when i go to toronto, i plan on wearing a head-dress like a muslim woman's -- NOT to show support for the taliban (which i have interesting plans for that include pork, bacon, miniskirts, red lipstick, rock music, and the removal of the right hand) but to show support for the innocent of ALL faiths and races.

(i *pity* the poor sucker who tries to take me on, thinking (s)he's got another meek liddle female to harass!)


do you feel the need to provoke or are you just making a statement?

Sorry for the crazy way this is posted. I have been having problems with my computer since last night!!

[Kaylara]

I fixed it :)

Kaylara

[Danustouch]

Ok...are people really saying that the way to stop the violence, is to just sit and pray/meditate???????? Do we really think that this alone will stop the terrorists??????????

ALL of us are scared of War right now. There are SO many reasons to be scared of it. Only the callous and the ignorant people of this nation want to see innocent blood shed.

But...what are the solutions? Any ideas? If we DONT take Osama out of the equation..how can we prevent him from harming us in the future???????

The man has openly declared his hatred for the US. He has Openly targeted us for MANY terrorist attacks. He has said he does not distinguish between ordinary American Citezens, and those dressed in uniform. He has VOWED to destroy us. Openly.

So....How do we Stop him? Beef up security?????? How can we do that fast enough to prevent him from attacking? ALL across the world, there are American tourists, American Diplomats, American workers. How can we ever protect them all?

Can we pray loud enough, and long enough, to create a bubble that would protect all the world over?

Can we FIND Osama, and bring him to a court of law for sentencing????? Really..what IS the solution? We can sit, and protest war, until the cows come home. But I don't hear any other practical solutions being brough up. No "Cures" for this disease.

I don't want war. But I want to feel safe. And I know, that as long as Osama and his followers are breathing...we WONT be safe.

They don't want our aid. They don't want our pity. They don't want our money, they don't want our food. They want our LIVES served up on a platter. Terrorists have been caught in the past, with links to Bin Laden. They have made it clear..that what Osama Bin Laden wants..is the total destruction of the U.S. He wants the collapse of our Nation. He wants the Collapse of our liberty. He wants there to BE no more United States. He wants us to be split up, into many different' states, too weak to stick our nose into world affairs, only strong enought to dig through the rubble of our own separate states, and barely survive. He doesn't WANT us to have freedom of Religion. He doesn't WANT Women to have a role in government, social or any other sort of life. He doesn't WANT us to have liberty...

If we moved out of Saudi Arabia...would that satisfy him? No. If we moved out of yemen, and the Sudan, and every other Islamic Country in this world..would THAT satisfy him??????? NO. This man does not understand live and let live. He wants only those who ascribe to his personal belief system...to live.

So....what do we do to make him happy? Maybe we should all just throw ourselves on the proverbial altar for him, and allow ourselves to die, so that we don't have to take another persons life.

I don't have the answers to this puzzle. But...SOMETHING must be done. And I for one, am reallllllllly sick of the numerous conspiracy theories floating around. I am sick of people saying.."Anything but war!!!!". Anything, indeed. Because if we DONT act....ANYTHING could happen. And that ANYTHING is far too frightening for me to imagine. I don't want to see innocent women and children murdered. Of course, I don't. But I want Osama Out. I want his Followers OUT. Now!

[threenorns]

well, one thing i've always been known for is kicking over the applecart. it's been my experience that ppl do and say things without thinking them through thoroughly and i firmly believe that it's my job to hold up a mirror for them to see themselves in.

as for other religions using their religion as an excuse for violence, i think buddhism is pretty much the only one who can claim complete innocence -- virtually EVERY religion, at one point or another, claimed that's its god(s)/goddess(es) required blood and violence as proof of devotion.

and the only place it will stop is within each of us.

studies have shown that if one goes onto a crowded subway platform and throws down a piece of litter, at least three more ppl will almost immediately do the same thing. if, however, one bends over, picks up a piece of litter, and puts it in the garbage, three ppl will almost immediately do the same thing and three more will actually look about to find one but will stop just short of picking it up themselves.

of those three ppl, two will be children.

[Laiste]

http://www.alternet.org/break_cycle.httml[/URL]

Who are we kidding...none of us has the answer...but if it helps us to pray and meditate and send positive energy out into the world then So Mote It Be! I for one would much rather do that then pick up a gun and kill someone. At least while I have the freedom to chose my options!

[threenorns]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Ok...are people really saying that the way to stop the violence, is to just sit and pray/meditate???????? Do we really think that this alone will stop the terrorists??????????


...


I don't have the answers to this puzzle. But...SOMETHING must be done. And I for one, am reallllllllly sick of the numerous conspiracy theories floating around. I am sick of people saying.."Anything but war!!!!". Anything, indeed. Because if we DONT act....ANYTHING could happen. And that ANYTHING is far too frightening for me to imagine. I don't want to see innocent women and children murdered. Of course, I don't. But I want Osama Out. I want his Followers OUT. Now!


i'm not saying we solve the problem by praying and meditating: but attacking americans and canadians because of who their parents/grandparents/great-grandparents/sister's-cousin's-brother's-second-ex-wife is is just plain retarded and reduces us to a level slightly lower than bin laden because we KNOW what we're doing is wrong and we're doing it anyway!

you want osama out, i want osama out, we all want osama and his little coterie taken out.

but what has that got to do with the orphans, or the woman who was dragged out of her car and beaten to death on the street because she had the nerve to show the skin on her elbow after the wind blew back her sleeve, or the woman whose husband cast her out because she walked on the floor too loudly, or the girl who is killed because she's not "marriage material"?

the way to deal with bin laden is to drain him dry of what gives him power: get ALL the women and children under 14 out of the country. within a few years, the men will either come on their knees begging, or the population will have dropped to non-viable levels -- then all the women and children can move back and start rebuilding their country in the way it should have been done from the start.

i know it's an unspectacular, costly, long-term approach: but it would WORK and it would make the US and Canada (which is where the women and children would naturally go) look like big huge saviours of the downtrodden. by using extreme military force, the States runs the risk of another Viet Nam, esp since he's saying that "all countries" involved will be punished. that means canada, too, because we didn't notice that terrorist cells may possibly have been operating in our own country.... one wonders how Bush will punish the States for having more terrorist cells running around?


i'm saying we approach bin laden with brains, instead of force: it wasn't force that caused this atrocity, it was sheer, unmitigated brilliance and to respond with force would be like the 6-foot bully pounding the hell out of the skinny little smart-ass: the smart-ass may have deserved it, but it still looks bad that the bully could only respond with physical violence.

i say we beat him at his own game.

[talamh]

Danustouch - i think the role of meditation is to calm oneself first before acting.. otherwise one can act in a way that makes things worse, rather then better.

Killing for peace just doesn't work... although sometimes specific strong actions are needed.

But carpet bombing Afghanistan won't stop terrorism and will just cause more misery and oppression and that will only fuel the fire.

The people of Afghanistan need food and shelter.. not bombs. Why not start right now by sending massive aid to the millions of refugees pouring across the border into Pakistan? And at the same time come up with a strategy that will neutralize Bin Laden.. whatever that is. Bombing the heck out of buildings full of innocent people is much too blunt an instrument for someone as sophisticated and cunning as Bin Laden and his followers.

Yes... we have to do something.. but we must be very careful what that something is. It would be very easy to make things a whole lot worse.

And if we do believe in the power of energy work.. whatever name we give to it... then now is also a good time to call forth energies of compassion and protection, of reason and consideration. Angst breeds angst as violence breeds violence... and vengence breeds vengence.

We must be careful that we do not become terrorists in responding to terrorism. That is what these people want..... we must be careful not to follow their script, but to live and act according to who we are and what we believe. bb talamh

[Danustouch]

Who said anything about targeting Islamic women and Children who are innocent, in countries such as the US and Canada? Not me! Yes, there are a bunch of ignorant racists running around using this as their excuse to harm these people. I certainly do not support that, and would gladly help anyone I knew facing such oppression.

I also do not advocate bombing civilian areas in afghanistan. I would hope that our government is smart enough not to specifically target hospitals/schools/mosques/homes, etc, in afghanistan. Last I heard..we would first target those training camps.

Yes..we should help the afghan refugees. I've heard talk that we were in the process of sending UN workers to do just that. It is something I fully support. But that alone, is not going to help the US win this battle.

Importing tons of Afghan Refugees, women and children, I'm not sure that would be such a good idea either. At least not in the US. We are in a recession....i'm not sure how much help we could actually provide them with. We have TONS of homeless people, jobless people, etc, as it is. Sending them Aid..yes. Actually bringing them here..I don't think that is the solution. For one, as I said, I don't think we could support that influx. Secondly, we KNOW that there are racists, and ignorant people targeting people of Islamic culture here as it is. If we started taking them in..how could we garuntee their safety. It would likely do nothing more than FUEL The ire of the ignorant racists here.

And the Government is NOT going to target Canada. The whole..."targeting anyone who harbors terrorists" was meant to get support/help from foreighn governments. In other words..anyone who KNOWINGLY supports them financially, or harbors them...will be targeted. In other words..a country who obstructs justice. Canada is not one of those governments.

As for Magick, meditation, and prayer. Yes..I believe in the power of these to give wisdom. I believe we need to be praying for peace. I believe we need to be praying for protection, and for wisdom. But I also know that conciousness AND energy create reality. So therefore..yes..we must raise our conciousness through the prayer/meditations and such. But it must be backed up by energy..and i'm not just talking astral energy. For instance, when one does a prosperity spell..what help is it going to do if they don't also look for a job??? It must be followed up by action.

IMO...we need BRAINS and FORCE to stop this. Not just one or the other.

[flar7]

Ok, a lot of very good points have been raised, and I would just like to add to the collection.

There are no answers to this problem period.

The Women of Afghanistan(the majority anyway) would never disobey their men or their religion. They become refugees as a family unit, and many loose members along the trail. Now young girls you have a chance with. They are not as set in their ways.

Osama the idiot: Simple, infiltrate the country with a muslim assassin. If you are after justice without trial. Capture him? Maybe. The cost will be high, and the loss of innocents will hurt our standing with the muslim community.

After he is gone, he will be easily replaced by another terrorist.

It is a battle of good vs. evil. The struggle of life and choices.
There are no easy paths, and possibly no absolute correct ones.

I will side with life everytime, but understand that we are human and these dark things are in all of us.

Terrorism itself has been elevated to a new level, and every young terrorist out there can tell that the bar has been raised.
You must try to stop them, and understand that you cant stop all of them. Unless you are willing to kill every potential terrorist in the world. Where would we stop?

Sorry for rambling, Let's try not to kill anyone today.

[Margie]

I work in a resauraunt and the cook is from Pakistan. He is an American citizen but his family is in Pakistan. My heart goes out to him and the conflicting emotions he must be feeling. I feel for anyone in a similar situation!