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Mjollnir

January 18th, 2005, 03:55 PM

Ok people, everyone ready to tackle a review from Lesson Two???

aefentid:"Goddesses Freyja, Frigg, Idhun, Sif, Hel, Sunna, Eostre, Skadi, Eir, Nerthus and Njord.
Even though Njord is a God, I had to include him because it's hard to discuss Nerthus without talking about him too."

Nerthus as well as Eostre to the best of my knowledge are more Anglo-Saxon/continental so for practical purposes they shall be omitted as Rick and I agree we should focus on what is found in the lore and Njord will be added to the Lesson on the Gods.

Mjollnir

January 20th, 2005, 01:00 PM

Anyone have anything to add?

Rick

January 20th, 2005, 01:18 PM

:hehehehe: Going once... going twice...

Nantonos

January 20th, 2005, 09:42 PM

oops. no way to subscribe to a forum, just a thread. I hadn't noticed. Sorry to keep you waiting. _inabox_
goes reading lesson 2

Malkior

January 21st, 2005, 01:38 AM

can't wait for new lessons to start

Rick

January 21st, 2005, 01:55 AM

oops. no way to subscribe to a forum, just a thread. I hadn't noticed. Sorry to keep you waiting. _inabox_
goes reading lesson 2
Um... I'm subscribed to this forum... open the Cot:Heathenry forum... before you click on a thread, look at the tool bar at the top... it'll say forum tools, like the thread tool bar says thread tools

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 08:22 AM

oops. no way to subscribe to a forum, just a thread. I hadn't noticed. Sorry to keep you waiting. _inabox_
goes reading lesson 2

Sorry bout that, I took for granted that everyone would just go and do it.

mothwench

January 21st, 2005, 09:23 AM

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 09:42 AM

i have a couple of questions about freyja, or rather, the lay of hyndla that aefentid linked us to in her lesson thread. http://www.northvegr.org/lore/poetic2/015_01.php

um, what is a vala? hyndla is described as one. a seer maybe?

then, in verse 2, freya says:

heriafather=odin?

then i was wondering what "on the dead-road" means.
it pops up once or twice in verses 8 and 9

According to the Hollander translation of verse 2:
"Let us ask Othin..............."
so yes, Herifather is another word for Odin.

As far as the term Vala, I would guess to say that yes it could be said Hyndla is a seer. In the introductory text by Hollander, it only states that"The goddess Freya, riding on her boar, awakens the wise giantess Hyndla................" so it could be argues she is either a seer or just really really smart. ;-)

The dead road verse, while different in the Hollander translation in both wording and what stanza they appear in( 6 & 7 respectively as opposed to 8 & 9 on the Northvegr site) indicates in footnote 10 "That is, as a slain warrior to join the heroes in Othins (or Freya's) hall. See Grimnismal Stanza 8 and 14"

mothwench

January 21st, 2005, 10:00 AM

thanks. :smile:

Rick

January 21st, 2005, 11:26 AM

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 11:34 AM

I figured I would add some additional information to what has already been posted in earlier classes.

Frigga

Poetic Edda
(Othin said)
1. "Give me rede now, Frigg, as to fare me listeth
to wise Vafthruthnir.
Much I wonder if in wisdom my like
the all-wise etin be."

(Frigg said)
2. "At home had I Herjafather rather,
in the garth of the gods;
there's no match in might among thurses
to that all-wise etin."

(Othin said)
3. "Far have I fared, much afield have I been,
and striven in strength with gods;
to view me listeth how Vafthruthnir
lives in the high timbered hall."

(Frigg said)
4. "All hail to thy going! All hail to thy coming!
all hail to thee, hence and hither!
May thy wit not fail thee, Father of Men,
when with word ye war."

- Vafthruthnismal (Hollander trans.)

One day, Othin and Frigg were sitting in Hlithskjalf and were looking out upon all the worlds. Then said Othin: "Dost thou see Agnar, thy foster son, how he begets children with an ogress in a cave? But Geirroth, my foster son, is king in the land." Frigg answered: "He is so grudging about his food that he lets his guests die of hunger when he thinks too many have come." Othin said that this was a gross lie, and so they laid a wager obout the matter. Frigg sent her chambermaid Fula to Geirroth to tell him to beware lest he be bewitched by a warlock who was then come into the land...

- Grimnismal prologue (Hollander trans.)

Frigg said:
25. "[Loki], your doings ye should deeply hide,
not tell these tidings abroad;
what in olden times ye twain have wrought,
keep it from ken of men."

Loki said:
26. "Hush thee, Frigg, who art Fjorgyn's daughter:
thou hast ever been mad after med.
Vili and Ve thous, Vithrir's spouse,
dids't fold to thy bosom both.

Frigg said:
27. "Forsooth, had I in Aegir's hall
a son as Baldr so brave:
thou'dst not get htee gone from the gods foregathered
before thou had'st fought for thy life."

Loki said:
28. "Be mindful Frigg, what further I tell
of wicked works of mine:
my rede wrought it that rides nevermore
hitherward Baldr to Hall."

Freya said:
29. "Thou art raving, Loki, to reckon up
all the ill thou hast done:
I ween that Frigg the fates knoweth,
thou she say it not herself."

- Lokasenna (Hollander trans.)

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Prose Edda
"The highest is Frigg. She has a dwelling called Fensalir and it is very splendid..."

- Gylfaginning (page 29 Faulkes trans.)

There are events to be related that would have been thought more significant by the Aesir. And the beginning of this story is that Baldr the Good dreamed great dreams boding peril to his life. And when he told the Aesir the dreams, they took counsel together and it was decided to request immunity for Baldr from all kinds of danger, and Frigg received solemn promise so that Baldr could not be harmed from fire and water, iron and all kinds of metal, stones, the earth, trees, disease, the animals, the bird, poison and snakes. And when this was done and confirmed, then it became entertainment for Baldr and the Aesir that he should stand up at assemblies and all the others should either shoot at him or throw stones at him. But whatever they did, he was unharmed, and they all thought this was a great glory. But when Loki Laufeyiarson saw this he was not pleased that Baldr was unharmed. He went to Fensalir to Frigg and changed his appearance to that of a woman. Then Frigg asked this woman what the Aesir were doing at the assembly. She said that everyone was shooting at Baldr, and moreover that he was unharmed. Then said Frigg: "Weapons and wood will not hurt Baldr. I have received oaths from them all." Then the woman replied "Have all things sworn oaths not to harm Baldr?" Then Frigg replied: "There grows a shoot of a tree to the west of Val-hall. It is called mistletoe. It seemed young to me to demand the oath from".

- Gylfaginning (page 48 Faulkes trans.)

How shall Frigg be referred to? By calling her daughter of Fiorgyn, wife of Odin, mother of Baldr, rival of lord Rind and Gunnlod and Gerd, mother-in-law of Nanna, queen of Aesir and Asyniur, of Fulla and falcon-form and Fensalir.

- Gylfaginning (page 86 Faulkes trans.)

Links
"Frija and Other Goddesses", Chapter XII of Our Troth
Matrons and Disir: The Heathen Tribal Mothers, by Winifred Hodge
Maggie's Place: Spinning Info and Links
Spinning with a Top-Whorl Drop Spindle

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 11:38 AM

Eir

SOURCES
Poetic Edda

(Svipdag said)
"Tell me, Fjolsvith, For fain I would know;
answer thou as I ask:
what the mountain is hight which the maided doth
dwell on, aloft and alone?"

(Fjolsvith said)
"Tis Lyfja Mount hight, and long has it been
for the sick and the halt a help:"
for hale grows wholly, though hopeless she seems
the woman who wins its height."

(Svipdag said)
"Tell me, Fjolsvith, For fain I would know;
answer thou as I ask:
what the maids are hight before Mengloth's knees
that sit in sisterly wise?"

(Fjolsvith said)
"Hlif one is hight, Hlifthrasa another,
a third, Thjothvara;
eke Bjort and Bleik, Blith and Frith,
Eir and Aurbortha."

(Svipdag said)
"Tell me, Fjolsvith, For fain I would know;
answer thou as I ask:
do they help award to their worshippers
if need of help the have?"

(Fjolsvith said)
"Ay, they help award to their worshippers,
in hallowed stead if they stand;
there is never a need that neareth a man,
but they lend a helping hand."

Svipdagasmal 36 - 40. Hollander translation

Prose Edda

"Third is Eir. She is an extremely good physician." (Gilfaginning)

Eir is also listed amongst the Valkyries in Skaldskaparmal.

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A valuable resource for those wanting to know more about Eir is Chapter 13 in Our Troth. Some of the applicable section regarding Eir is reproduced below.

Eir (also Iær, Aer) is mentioned once by Snorri and appears once in Svipdagsmál. Snorri tells us that she is "the best of healers"; in Svipdagsmál, she is one of the maidens on a mountain called "Lyfja" ("to heal through magic" - de Vries,Wörterbuch, p. 369 ), of which it is said that it "has long been a pleasure for the sick and wounded; every woman will become whole if she climbs it, though she has a grievous illness". The other women also have names suggesting works of weal, such as "Hlíf" ("Protection"), "Blíð" ("Blithe"), and Fríð ("beautiful, peaceful") and it is said of them that they offer help to those who sacrifice to them. According to de Vries (Wörterbuch, p. 97), Eir's name is originally derived from words meaning "honour" or "worship" (related to modern German Ehre); it is also seen as the Old Norse noun eir, "graciousness - mildness - help". Related to it is the verb eira, "to care for; to help or please". There is also a word eir meaning "copper"; though this word is not etymologically related to the goddess-name, the healing might of copper rings and bracelets has long been known in folk-medicine, so that this metal might well be thought of as particularly hers. More and more folk are becoming interested in Eir, and surely her healing might is much needed in the world today. Eir is clearly the particular patron of all those who work with any form of health-care or healing, but anyone who needs healing should call on her. KveldúlfR Gundarsson's personal opinion is that Eir is likely to be a goddess who prefers the gentler and slower "alternative" methods of healing, such as aromatherapy, herbalism, and massage, together with emotional counselling and balancing; that her way of healing only uses the more drastic medical means such as surgery and antibiotic treatments in acute cases when the condition is too dangerous or extreme for the patient to heal safely without intervention, and even then, the greatest care is given to such things as nutrition and the patient's spiritual and emotional state. Gefjon mentions that Eir is by no means a foe of technology when it is rightly applied - all healing tools belong to her - but her focus is on prevention more than cure, care and tending to encourage natural healing rather than unnecessary drastic intervention (as opposed to the necessary sort, of which she is also the patron). As much of the healing lore of our forebears was magical, we may well guess that Eir is a patroness of such magic - that her charms work on the soul and mind as well as the body, to bring about truly holistic healing. As a goddess who is both a spiritual and a physical healer, Eir is especially good to call on for those who need help in dealing with addictions. Eir must also have been thought of as something of a shaman, since the Anglo-Saxon charm spells show us that many sicknesses were considered to be the workings of alfs, dwarves, witches, or even the Ases (Storms, Anglo-Saxon Magic); in fact, the word "elf-shot" is known in all the Germanic languages, and Hexenschuss, "witch-shot", is still used in rural Bavaria to describe serious pains in the bones and joints. The healer was one who knew not only the plants to help with such a sickness, but the way to magically prepare them and apply them so as to drive out the evil wights or the "shots" they had left in the patient's body - and who was able to deal with health-threatening wights in the soul-world as well as working in the Middle-Garth.

Our Troth, Chapter 13

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 11:40 AM

Hela

Poetic Edda
"Of the runes of the giants and all the gods,
I can tell with truth.
I have been to into nine worlds below, to Niflhel;
There men die out of Hel."

- Vafthrudhismal 43 (translation by Hilda Davidson)

"Three roots do spread in threefold ways
beneath the ash Yggdrasil
dwell etins 'neath one, 'neath the other, Hel,
'neath the third; Midgardh's men."

- Grimnismal 31 (Hollander translation)

Lee Hollander translates Hel to "The Concealer"

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Prose Edda
"There was a giantess called Angrboda in Giantland. With her Loki had three children. One was Fenriswolf, the second Iormungandr, the third is Hel... Hel [did the All-Father] throw into Niflheim and gave her authority over nine worlds, such that she has to administer board and lodging to those sent to her, and that is those who die of sickness or old age. She has great mansions there and her walls are exceptionally high and the gates great. Her hall is called Eliudnir, her dish Hunger, her knife Famine, the servant Ganglati, serving-maid Ganglot, her threshold where you enter Stumbling-block, her bed Sick-bed, her curtains Gleaming-bale. She is half black and half flesh covered - thus she is easily recognizable - and rather downcast and fierce looking."

- Gylfaginning (translation by Anthony Faulkes)

"...Then Hermod rode up to the hall and dismounted from his horse, went into the hall, saw sitting there in the seat of honour his brother Baldr; and Hermod stayed there the night. In the morning Hermod begged from Hel that Baldr might ride home with him and said what great weeping there was among the Aesir. But Hel said that it must be tested whether Baldr was as beloved as people said in the following way, 'if all things in the world, alive and dead, weep for him, then he shall go back to the Aesir, but be kept with hel if any object refuses to weep.'"

- Gylfaginning (translation by Anthony Faulkes)

In Skaldsparmal, "companion of Hel" is a used as a kenning for Baldr, and "monstruous wolf's sister" is a kenning for Hel.
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The Sagas
"Ravens flocked
to the reddened sword,
spears plucked lives
and gory shafts sped.
The scourge of Scots
fed the wolves that trolls ride,
Loki's daughter, Hel,
trod the eagle's food."

- Egil's Saga, Chapter 60, verse 10 of poem (Bernard Scudder translation).
"The end is all.
Even now
High on the headland
Hel stands and waits
Life fades, I must fall
And face my own end
Not in misery and mourning
But with a man's heart."

- Egil's Saga, Chapter 78, last verse of the first poem in the chapter (Penguin Classics edition).

"By Hel's summons, a great king
Was called away to Odin's Thing:
King Halfdan, he who dwelt of late
At Holtar, must obey grim Fate.
At Borre, in the royal mound,
They laid the hero in the ground."

- Yngling Saga, Chapter 52 (translation by Laing, London 1844)

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Modern Sources
"Snorri refers to these nine worlds in Gylfaginning (XXXIV) when he tells us that the goddess Hel was cast into Niflheim, and given power over nine worlds, 'so that she should find places in her abodes for those who were sent to her'. It seems likely, however, that Snorri's account of the queen of the Underworld is chiefly his own work. The idea that those who enter her realm have died of sickness and old age sound like an attempt to reconcile the tradition with the description he has given of Valholl, especially since the one detailed picture he himself gives us of Hel consists of the story of the entry of Balder within her gates, who died neither of old age or sickness."

Hilda Davidson, Road to Hel, page 83-84

Excerpt from Our Troth
Hella (Hel, Hell, Hölle, Halja, *Haljon)

This goddess was known to all the Germanic peoples, including the Goths: a Gothic word for "witch" was haljoruna - Hella-runester. She must have been the goddess of the underworld from a very early time, as her name is given to that land in all the Germanic tongues. The name itself stems from a root meaning "to hide": she is the concealer. Simek compares the description of the road to Hel as "down and to the north" to the burial mounds of European megalithic culture, which "always have their entrances to the south and the burial chamber to the north...also the north-south orientation is predominant in Bronze Age ship settings and Vendel and Viking Age ship graves". He strengthens his identification of Hel with these family cairns by pointing out that the Old Irish cognate to her name is cuile, "cellar", which is a reasonable development from the mound-covered rock-chamber (Dictionary, pp. 137-38).

Hella is a rather ambiguous figure in the Norse pantheon: as ruler of the Underworld, she has the status of a Goddess and queen; as Loki's daughter, sister of the Wolf Fenrir and the Middle-Garth's Wyrm, she appears as a demonic figure. The belief in Hella as ruler of the underworld is likely very archaic; the belief that she is part of Loki's monstrous family goes back at least to the ninth century, appearing in the skaldic poem Ynglingatal, where it says "I tell no secret, Gná-of-Glitnir (the horse-goddess - Glitnir, "glistening", is listed as a horse-heiti, and one goddess' name is often subsituted for another in kennings) has Dyggvi's corpse for her delight, for the horse-idis of the Wolf and Narvi chose the king, and Loki's daughter has the ruler of the folk of Yngvi as her plaything". Although it has been suggested that Hella as a person is late and perhaps even post-heathen (Simek, Dictionary, p. 138), her appearance in this poem makes it clear that she was firmly established as a free-standing personality in the Viking Age. It may be particularly noted that it is implied in Ynglingatal that the dead man will receive the personal favours of Hella, a theme which also shows up in Saxo's version of the Balder-story, where Balder dreams of the embraces of "Persephone" (Hella). Grimm, citing the great many Hella-based place-names of continental Germany, as well as her appearance as "Mother Hölle" in German folklore, is of the opinion that she may well have preceded many of the other deities, and perhaps even that the name and idea of the realm devolved from the goddess herself. As a matter of fact, the older the versions of the Germanic Goddess of Death are, the less "hellish" and more godlike she appears.

The Goddess Hel is sometimes represented as a personification of Death, with the Wolf and Serpent as Pain and Sin, respectively. This is another pretty mediæval (or even Victorian) sentiment - surely death, a natural part of the cycle of life, is not equivalent to sin (in the christian sense - in the original sense, as Gert McQueen has pointed out, "sin" meant only "being"). This is part of the need felt by some for all three of Loki's children to represent awful monsters of some sort. But Hel always stands out from the other two. Instead of being bound or imprisoned, Hel is given rule over her own realm. In the Baldr story, she stands as an equal with the Æsir, refusing to give in to their demands unless on her own terms. She is very possibly an older concept, that of the Death Goddess, which was stuck into a later myth-cycle in a convenient place, as happens to so many other deities. Death is too ancient and primal a concept to be such a late-comer into a pantheon.

As a goddess of death, Hel is not only the receiver of the dead, sometimes she comes herself to claim them. This is spoken of in the quote from Ynglingatal (above). During the Black Plague, which ravaged Norway and other parts of Scandinavia to an even greater degree than the rest of Western Europe, Hel was said to travel the countryside with a broom and a rake. In villages where some survived, she was said to have used the rake; if a whole community perished, she had used her broom.

However, generally she is simply the keeper of the souls of the departed, welcoming them into her house, which was viewed as a sort of inn for the dead, and holding them with an inexorable grip, on no account giving up anyone once she had them. This idea of the Death Goddess being unpitying and immovable, never giving back one she has taken, is certainly apparent in Hel's refusal to let Baldr go. The giantess Þökk in the Baldr story, who refuses to weep for him, is often supposed to be Loki, making double sure Baldr stays dead for his own evil reasons. But the claim could be made that she is Death herself, the one being who would feel no need to weep for Baldr. "What Hel has, she may keep", Þökk says. Hermóðr does not understand Hel's hidden meaning when she says all things must weep for Baldr to prove he was universally mourned. What she means, perhaps, is that all the worlds may wish Baldr back, but death herself will remain inexorable.

The ancient death Goddess was often pictured as having gaping jaws and a ravening wolfish nature (which is reminiscent of Hel's brother Fenrir, whose jaws, when open, stretched from Heaven to Earth). The Norse Hel is pictured as a woman of very stern demeanor and parti-coloured - sometimes half black or blue and half white, sometimes half corpse flesh and half living, by which, as Snorri puts it in his Edda, "she is easily recognized" (no doubt!). Sometimes it is suggested that her upper half is white/living and her lower half is black/rotting, but one may well suspect that this has more to do with the neuroses of modern society than with the beliefs of our ancestors; Karter Neal, who has done much work with this goddess, says that she always sees Hella's two halves as being right side/left side. An interesting point to bring up here is a passage from ibn Fadlan's descriptions of the Rus, where a corpse is buried temporarily in the frozen earth while preparations are made for the funeral; when it was dug up, the cold had turned the flesh black. The Norse were also surely aware of the phenomenon of livor mortis, which, after a few hours, causes the skin of whatever parts of the body are lowest to take on a bluish-purple hue. The dead are either described as helblár (Hel blue/black) or nábleikr, náfölr (corpse-pale).

This two-coloured aspect can symbolize death's two sides - ugly and peaceful. It may be worth noting that those dead who do become helblár are usually those who walk as draugar after their deaths - the evil dead, in other words.

Leaving scholarly speculations for more mystical ones, I (Alice Karlsdóttir) have done a series of meditations on Hel over a few years, trying to find out what sort of deity she is, and have seldom seen her as two-coloured. She appears either all hideous (which seems to amuse her greatly as being a huge joke on everyone), or all beautiful, with very pale skin, hair, eyes, and garments, and always with her crown on. Death appears fearsome and ugly to the living, for we see it as an end to all we know and love, often accompanied by pain and fear. But if death is a part of life and the natural cycle of things, and if the soul continues in another life afterwards, might not Death appear beautiful to one who is dying, a welcome release from pain, a doorway to a new existence? When death is truly accepted and understood, it loses its hideous face. Perhaps this is what Hel's two-faced quality represents. There are as many references to beauty in her realm as ugliness. It comes down to whether we are going to be willing to accept death or not, but willing or not, we must face her sooner or later.

Hella's chief animal is the horse; the Scandinavian belief in the helhest is spoken of under "Soul, Death, and Rebirth". She is also seen as a three-legged white goat; another folk belief was that Hel had a huge ox which went from place to place during times of sickness and whose breath caused people to fall down dead.

Hella's colours are black or deep blue-black and white. Runes associated with her in modern times are Hagalaz, Berkano, and Isa.

Excerpt taken from Our Troth, Chapter XIII.

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 11:40 AM

Idunn

SOURCES

Poetic Edda

Bragi

14. Were I without now even in such mood
as within the halls of Ægir,
that head of thine would I hold in my hand: --
'twere little reward for thy lie!

Loki

15. Bold seemst thou sitting, but slack art thou doing,
Bragi, thou pride of the bench!
Come forth and fight if in truth thou art wroth;
a bold warrior bides not to think.

Idunna

16. Nay Bragi, I beg for the sake of blood-kindred,
and of all the war-sons of Odhinn,
upbraid not Loki with bitter speeches
here in Ægir's halls.

Loki

17. Silence, Idunna! I swear, of all women
thou the most wanton art;
who couldst fling those fair-washed arms of thine
about thy brother's slayer.

Idunna

18. I blame thee not, Loki, with bitter speeches
here in Ægir's halls.
I seek but to sooth the ale-stirred Bragi,
lest in your fierceness ye fight.

- Lokasenna (Poetic Edda, Hollander translation).

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Prose Edda
"Idunn is [Bragi's] wife. She keeps in her casket apples which the gods have to feed on when they age, and then they all become young, and so it will go right on up to Ragnarok."

Then spoke Gangleri: "It seems to me that the gods at are staking a great deal on Idunn's care and trustworthiness".

Then spoke High, laughing: "It nearly led to disaster on one occasion..."

- Gylfaginning (page 25 Anthony Faulkes translation)

"....Loki shouted and begged [Thiassi] most earnestly for a truce but it said that Loki would never get free unles he vowed solemnly to get Idunn to come outside Asgard with her apples, and Loki accepted. Then he got free and went up to his comrades. And nothing else noteworty was told for the moment of their expedition until they got home. But at the agreed time Loki lured Idunn out through Asgard into a certain forest, saying that he had found some apples that she would think worth having, and told her she should bring the apples with her and compare them with these. The giant Thiassi arrived in eagle shape and snatched Idunn and flew away with her to his home in Thrymheim."

" But the Aesir were badly affected by Idunn's disappearance and soon became grey and old. Then the Aesir held a parliament and asked each other what was the last that was known about Idunn, and the last that had been seen was that she had gone outside Asgard with Loki. Then Loki was arrested and brought to the parliament and he was threatened with death or torture. Being filled with terror, he said he would go in search of Idunn in Giantland if Freyja would lend him a falcon shape of hers. And when he got the falcon shape he flew north to Giantland and arrived one day at Thiassi's; he was out at sea in a boat, but Idunn was at home alone. Loki turned her into the form of a nut and he held her in his claws and flew as fast as he could..."

- Gylfaginning (page 60 Anthony Faulkes translation)

"How shall Idunn be referred to? By calling her wife of Bragi and keeper of the apples, and the apples, the Aesir's old-age cure. She is also giant Thiassi's booty in accordance with the story told above about his abducting her from the Aesir."

- Gylfaginning (page 86 Anthony Faulkes translation)

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Other Sources
Iðunn is well known as the keeper of the apples of youth, which she feeds to the god/esses to keep them young and strong. The only tale of her is the one recounted in the skaldic poem Haustlöng (ca. 900) and the Prose Edda. To redeem himself from the clutches of the etin Thjazi (father of Skaði - see "Skaði, Gerðr, and other Etin-Brides"), Loki lures her out of the Ases' Garth and Thjazi, in eagle-shape, swoops down and snatches her. Without her, the god/esses quickly begin to fade; but they hold a meeting and find out that Iðunn was last seen with Loki, from whom they eventually get the truth. Loki then borrows the Frowe's falcon-coat and goes to find Iðunn, changing the goddess and her apples into a nut and flying away with them. Thjazi, as an eagle, pursues him, buffeting Loki with the wind from his wings. When Loki lands in the Ases' Garth, the other gods set a fire on the walls which singes Thjazi's wings and forces him to earth so that he can be killed.

Iðunn is clearly the embodiment of the might of new life, that which keeps the worlds strong and fruitful - a trait she shares with the other goddesses desired by etin-men, the Frowe and Sif. Her very name either means "the renewing one" or "the active one" (de Vries, Wörterbuch p. 283); a related word, "iðiagroenn" (renewed-green), is used for the new-born Earth after Ragnarök (Völuspá 59). Her tale is close in many ways to the "Spring Goddess" model of Gerðr, Menglöð, and Sigrdrífa: the shining hero must pass into Etin-home, defy or slay an etin, and cross a ring of fire to claim the maid. Some may raise their eyebrows at the idea of Loki as "shining hero", but not only is he likely to be a fire-being, but he actually seems to symbolically take Balder's place in the following tale of Thjazi's daughter Skaði. Turville-Petre also compares Loki's theft of Iðunn to Óðinn's theft of the mead of poetry (Myth and Religion, p. 187).

Both apples and nuts are signs, not merely of fruitfulness, but specifically of life springing forth again from death: their meaning of is spoken of more fully in the chapter "Things and Meanings".

Today, Iðunn is called on specifially as the goddess whose might brings the elder Troth forth "iðiagroenn"; for this reason, a form of her name is used for the Ring of Troth's official magazine, Idunna.

Excerpt taken from Our Troth, Chapter XIII.

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 11:41 AM

Sif

SOURCES

Poetic Edda
Then came Sif forward and poured mead for Loki in a crystal cup.

She said:

"Hail to thee Loki! To thy lips now raise
this beaker full of good beer,
so that me alone among the gods
without a blot thou let'st be."

He took the goblet and drank of it (and said):

"That one thou wert, if thou wert indeed
shy and didst shrink from men;
but one I wot, whom well I know
made a whore of Hlorrithi's (Thor's) wife:
sly Loki, Laufey's son.

- Lokasenna (Poetic Edda, Hollander translation).

The Ferryman said:

"With Sif someone sleeps in her bower;
they strength thou should'st stake against his!"

Thor said:

"With wicked words sayst thou what worse would seem to me;
but, craven knave, I know that thou liest."

- Harbarzljodh (Poetic Edda, Hollander translation)

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Prose Edda

"Ull is the name of one, son of Sif and step-son of Thor".
(Prose Edda, Anthony Faulkes translation, page 25).

"How shall Thor be referred to? By calling him... husband of Sif".
(p.77)

"How shall Loki be referred to? By calling him... Sif's hair farmer".
(p. 77)

"How shall Sif be referred to? By calling her wife of Thor, mother of Ull, the fair-haired deity, rival of Iarnsaxa, mother of Thrud".
(p. 86)

"How shall gold be referred to? By calling it... Sif's hair".
(p. 94)

"Why is gold called Sif's hair? Loki Laufeyson had done this for love of mischief: he had cut off all Sif's hair. And when Thor found out, he caught Loki and was going to break every one of his bones until he swore that he would get the black-elves to make Sif a head of hair out of gold that would grow like any other hair. After this Loki when to some dwarves called Ivaldi's sons, and they made a head of hair and Skidbladnir and the spear belonging to Odin called Gungnir... The hair was rooted in the flesh as soon as it came on to Sif's head..."
(p. 96 - 97)

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Other Sources
Sif is the wife of Thonar, the mother of Wulþur (by an unknown father) and Trude. Snorri mentions in his prologue to his Edda that her parents are not known, but she is a prophetess. This probably comes from his false etymology of "Sif" as being derived from the Classical "Sibyl", but it is not unlikely that she, like other goddesses such as Frija and Gefjon, may also be a seeress. Sif is best known for her long gold hair, around which the one myth in which she appears - Loki's cropping of it and the forging of the treasures of the gods - centers. It is often thought that her golden hair is the embodiment of the fields of grain, which, when ripe, look very much like long golden hair rippling in the breeze; in England, it used to be thought that the summer lightning was needed for the crops to ripen, which speaks of the relationship between Sif and Thonar. It is worth marking that in saga descriptions of women as attractive, the one physical feature which seems to define beauty is the woman's hair (most ideally, long, straight, golden hair such as Sif's) - other bodily characteristics are almost never mentioned. For instance Helga in fögr (the fair) is described with many superlatives as the fairest woman of Iceland, but the only thing said about her actual looks is that her hair was so long that she could completely wrap herself in it and was as fair as gold (Gunnlaugs saga ormstungu, ch. 4). Aside from that, descriptions of a saga-woman's physical beauty were wholly confined to her clothing (Jochens, Jenny, "Before the Male Gaze: the Absence of the Female Body in Old Norse"). Sif, with her gold hair, can thus be seen as the fairest of the goddesses and the very embodiment of the Norse ideal of female attractiveness. More than this, we know that hair was a very meaningful sign of both life-force and holiness among the Germanic peoples: for a man, it was particularly the emblem of a king, priest, or one dedicated to the god/esses; for a woman, it was the very symbol of her being. When Loki crops Sif's hair, it is not only an unmatched insult, it is an attack against the life-force of the Ases' Garth similar to the theft of Iðunn or the offering of Freyja in marriage to an etin: Sif's hair, Iðunn's apples, and the Frowe's womb are all embodiments of the same might. It may be significant that the etin Hrungnir, when boasting in the halls of the gods, threatens to carry away Freyja and Sif for himself; it is these goddesses (and perhaps Sif's daughter Trude, as spoken of below) that draw the interest of the manly wights of the Outgarth. Loki also expresses a certain claim to Sif in Lokasenna, saying that he has slept with her (and, again, no one can tell him that he is simply lying); it is not impossible that his cropping of her hair could have been a way of boasting of this deed. It has also been suggested that Loki's deed could, on a natural level, be seen in the practice of slash-and-burn agriculture, and there may be some truth in this, though we must remember that it is this world which mirrors the worlds of the gods, not their world which is explained simply by happenings in ours. The rowan is probably Sif's tree: as mentioned in "Thonar", we know that the Lappish version of the thunder-god, Hora galles or "Þórr Karl", had a wife named "Rowan", to whom the tree's red berries were holy, and that Þórr clung to this tree against the flood of Geirröðr's daughter. Turville-Petre concludes from this that, "Probably the wife of Thór was once conceived in the form of a rowan, to which the god clung", also making reference to the special reverence given to this tree from the settlement of Iceland to the present day (Myth and Religion, p. 98). We may also note that the rowan is first crowned with white - "fair" blossoms, then loses them, but in their stead gets bright red berries; since, as we will remember, the Germanic people often spoke of gold as being "red", this could likewise be seen as showing the cropping and replacement of Sif's hair. If Sif is indeed the rowan-goddess, this sheds a little more light on her relationship with Thonar and the way in which the two of them work together. The rowan is first and foremost a tree of warding against all ill-willing magic and wights of the Outgarth: next to the hallowing and battle-might of Thonar's Hammer, we thus have the hallowing and magical might of Sif's rowan. The two of them can be called on together as warders against all ill. Sif is never seen as a warrior, nor are any weapons ever attributed to her, despite the image put out by a certain popular comic-book. Her name is related very closely to the word "sib", the kin-group. This suggests that she is very much a deity of the clan and warder of the home and family, just as her husband is. Laurel Olson, who works closely with Sif, mentions that "She understands grief and loss from personal experience and is understanding in the extreme. She is (physical plane) wealth and prosperity, more so, I think, than Freya. She says she sleeps in winter beneath a grey and white cloak Frigga wove of rams' wool. She loves all things gold or golden coloured. She favours spring green, sky blue, berry red, autumnal gold (as opposed to yellow), and white. As offerings she likes cooked barley with honey and butter, fresh berries or berry strudel, and spring flowers. She also likes gold jewelry and amber anything."
Excerpt taken from Our Troth, Chapter XIII.

In his Teutonic Mythology (Volume 1), Jacob Grimm tells us that there is an herb (polytrichum aureum), that bears the name "haddr Sifjar" (Sif's hair). "Sifjar haddr" is the kenning for gold in Skaldskaparmal.

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 11:42 AM

Skadi

Skadavé

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Welcome to the Skadavé, the virtual fane that I have dedicated to the goddess Skadhi. I am a Skadhimadhr, and it is my sincere hope that this will page aid others who wish to learn about the snowshoe goddess as I have come to know her.

Within these pages, you will find:

Skadhi Lore
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/skadave/lore.html

Skadhi Poetry
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/skadave/poetry.html

Skadhi Articles
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/skadave/articles.html

Dreams and Visions
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/skadave/dreams.html

Skadhi Links
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/skadave/links.html

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 11:45 AM

Syn

Prose Edda
"Eleventh is Syn: she guards the doors of the hall and shuts them against those who are not to enter, and she is appointed as a defence at assemblies against matters that she wishes to refute. Thus there is a saying that a denial (syn) is made when one says no.."

- Gylfaginning (translation by Anthony Faulkes)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OUR THOUGHTS
Vingolf works with Syn, as a group, fairly often. At least three individual members have tools dedicated to her (two knives and a sword), and when an extra warding is needed (in addition to or in lieu of a hammer rite) we often call on her. Sometimes, the "Syn Rite" we perform is as simple as placing the weapon dedicated to her near the door to a room, and silently asking the goddess for her protection. Sometimes, we call to her in the blot itself. Sometimes, a separate rite is done before a blot. The end result tends to be the same - a calming, assuring feeling.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 11:48 AM

Thrudh

SOURCES

Poetic Edda
37. Hrist and Mist the horn shall bear me,
Skeggjold and Skogul;
but Hild and Thruth, Hlokk and Herfjotur,
Goll and Geironul,
Randgrith and Rathgrith and Reginleif,
to the einherjar ale shall bear.

- Grimnismal (Hollander translation

In Alvismal, The dwarf Alvis has taken Thrudh as a wife, and Thor stalls him with riddles until the sun comes up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prose Edda
"How shall Thor be referred to? By calling him son of Odin and Iord, father of Magni and Modi and Thrud,

- Skaldskaparmal (translation by Jean Young)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Sources
Trude is the daughter of Thonar and Sif. Her name means "Strength". She is listed among the walkurjas who bear ale in Walhall in Grímnismál 36; her name is also used in walkurja-type kennings, suggesting a battle-role, and was a very common second element in Germanic women's personal names such as Gertrude/Geirþrúðr.

Like the Frowe, Sif, and Iðunn, Trude is also desired by sundry wights of the Outgarth or underworld. In Alvíssmál, the dwarf Alvíss (All-Wise) has come up to the Ases' Garth in hopes of claiming her as his bride, and in Bragi's Ragnarsdrápa (early 9th century), the giant Hrungnir is called "thief of Þrúðr", which suggests that there may have been a different story leading up to the battle between Þórr and Hrungnir than the one Snorri tells. In Haustlöng, Thjóðólfr or Hvíni tells of the battle, but not its prelude; there are no older sources for Snorri's version, making it quite possible that the duel could have been motivated by the abduction of Þórr's daughter, rather than simply by the etin becoming drunk and disorderly in Ásgarðr. Snorri does in fact have Hrungnir threatening to carry off Freyja and Sif, but, out of ignorance or editorial policy, does not mention the theft of Þrúðr.

This role suggests that she, like the other goddesses who draw the desire of etins, is one of the female embodiments of the life-force of the cosmos. As she is the grand-daughter of Earth, daughter of Sif and Thonar, this is hardly to be wondered at. Being the daughter of one of the most beautiful of the goddesses, as well as the strongest of the gods, she must be both very fair and very mighty. Today, she is sometimes thought of as having lovely hair of a bright reddish-gold colour.

She and her two brothers Móði and Magni may also be seen as the bearers of Thonar's great gifts to humans: Strength, Bravery, and Main-Strength.

From his own workings and research, Larsanthony K. Agnarsson offers another perspective on this goddess, one which fits well with her role as daughter of Thonar and Sif:

Thruð is an obscure goddess and little is known about her other than (that) she is the daughter of Þórr and Sif. However, we in Skergard give her much more credit than that.

Thruð is one of the more prominent of the Asynjur in this modern day and age. She is the youngest goddess among the Asynjur.

The young gods and goddesses are very important in our modern world. Since the gods have evolved as we have, the youngest of them are more prominent in this day and age. This does not mean that the elder gods are fading from importance. What this does mean, however, is that the younger gods and goddesses are just as involved in our lives as their parents, if not more so.

As Sif represents the "Gatherer of Grains", Thruð represents the work behind sowing the fields and the labors of organized agriculture.

Before the coming of Thruð, mankind simply gathered berries and nuts to survive, ignorant of sowing fields, planting crops, or the inequity of modern agriculture.

As humanity continued to evolve, Sif taught Thruð the aspects of gathering nuts and berries, and from her grandmother Fjorgynn (Jord) she learned the ways of the soil. When Thruð came of age, she taught humans the importance of working with the Earth, that is, agriculture. She also taught mankind how to use what they grow, and how to grind grain to make flour for baking bread. Thus, Thruð is associated with the hearth, because she spends many hours there cooking, baking, and keeping the fire. As the fire-keeper and bread-baker, her colour is orange (not to mention that Red and Yellow make Orange; i.e. Þórr and Sif combined). What time not spent cooking, she spends in the fields, sorting the Earth from the stones and rocks.

Thruð is often seen as a large, strong woman whose hair is pulled back, but nevertheless messy. Her clothes are generally torn and dirty; as a labouring woman, she is too busy to notice her conditions.

Because of her strength, she is likened to a giantess. Rocks and stones that are sacred to her are the ones turned over with the plow.

Other colours which have been associated with Trude are bright red and gold.

This goddess also appears as one of the main characters in a charming work of Heathen educational fiction (early teenage-level, Danish language), Lars-Henrik Olsen's Erik Menneskesøn.

- Our Troth, Chapter XIII

KellyP

January 21st, 2005, 12:07 PM

Val translates as slain (as in Valhalla, "Hall of the Slain"). Vala would then translate as a 'slain woman' (feminine ending "a"), or a 'dead woman'. While it may not be expressly stated, it seems to be implied that Freya is raising Hyndla from a burial howe (necromancy being the form of divination that is used throughout the Eddas & Sagas).

I agree that the translation of Vala from the root val meaning slain is a logical one. Rather than indicating that Freya had brought Hyndla from the burial mound, I had initially considered that Hyndla herself might be a necromancer.

Another possible interpretation can be gained from Geir T. Zoegr's A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic. In his dictionary, Zoegr uses Vala as an adjective describing things from France (other than the Franks). He specifically annotates Vala malmr and Vala ript as metal (probably gold) and cloth from France, respectively. From this interpretation, Hyndla may have been a giantess from the lands towards modern day France.

You can find Zoegr's dictionary at www.northvegr.org.

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 12:18 PM

I agree that the translation of Vala from the root val meaning slain is a logical one. Rather than indicating that Freya had brought Hyndla from the burial mound, I had initially considered that Hyndla herself might be a necromancer.

Another possible interpretation can be gained from Geir T. Zoegr's A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic. In his dictionary, Zoegr uses Vala as an adjective describing things from France (other than the Franks). He specifically annotates Vala malmr and Vala ript as metal (probably gold) and cloth from France, respectively. From this interpretation, Hyndla may have been a giantess from the lands towards modern day France.

You can find Zoegr's dictionary at www.northvegr.org.

In the foreword of the Hollander trans. it only states she "awakens" Hyndla, could that mean she woke her from a burial howe? I do not know but in stanzas 6 & 7 in reference to the vala it states:

6
"False art, Freya to befriend me now;
thine eye seemeth to say to me
thou leadest thy lover on his last journey,
Ottar the Young, Innsteins son."

7
"Dull art, Hyndla, and dreamest, ween I,
to believe my lover on his last journey:
my boar gleameth, golden bristled,
Hildisvini, by smiths twain fashioned
of dwarven kin, Dain and Nabbi."

I would care to guess that Hyndla is insuiating to Freya she is taking him on his "last ride".

KellyP

January 21st, 2005, 12:23 PM

heriafather=odin?

I generally see it written as Herjafodr, and yes it refers to Odin.

Going again to Zoegr's dictionary of Old Icelandic we find that the word herja is defined as
"herja (að), v. (1) to go harrying or freebooting; (2) with acc. to despoil, waste (h. land); refl., herjast á, to harry (wage war on) one another",

In his next entry, Zoegr then goes on to note that Herjafodr is one of the names for Odin and translates Herjafodr as "lord of hosts".

So, I would think that Herjafather, refers to Odin as the leader of armies or raiders perhaps. Maybe a reference to Odin as father of 'vikings'?

mothwench

January 21st, 2005, 12:40 PM

Val translates as slain (as in Valhalla, "Hall of the Slain"). Vala would then translate as a 'slain woman' (feminine ending "a"), or a 'dead woman'. While it may not be expressly stated, it seems to be implied that Freya is raising Hyndla from a burial howe (necromancy being the form of divination that is used throughout the Eddas & Sagas).
:idea:
this could well be, considering they are asking her questions about ottar's ancestors, most of the people she talks about are presumably dead as well.

it seems as if she's tired of the questions and the way she repeatedly says

Carest thou this to know?
Wishest thou a longer narrative?

seems almost sarcastic to me.

is this intentional, or is it just my interpretation of it? i'm not sure i worded that right... :spaceman:

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 01:00 PM

:idea:
this could well be, considering they are asking her questions about ottar's ancestors, most of the people she talks about are presumably dead as well.

it seems as if she's tired of the questions and the way she repeatedly says

seems almost sarcastic to me.

is this intentional, or is it just my interpretation of it? i'm not sure i worded that right... :spaceman:

According to Hollander, Hyndla already knows that Hildisvini is Ottar in disguise yet addresses to him the information Freya desires. Freya wanted to match Hyndla in genealogical lore as Ottar wagered Angantyr and staked everything on who was more of noble descent.

KellyP

January 21st, 2005, 02:56 PM

mothwench

January 21st, 2005, 03:33 PM

thanks kellyP. *raises meadhorn* your contributions so far have been really interesting to read, too. :smile:

i've started reading mjöllnir's excellent additions and right now i'm reading about Sif. thanks for finding that troth article, i haven't read that one yet. (the troth is sooooo big! :wah: )

Loki also expresses a certain claim to Sif in Lokasenna, saying that he has slept with her (and, again, no one can tell him that he is simply lying); it is not impossible that his cropping of her hair could have been a way of boasting of this deed.
i find this very probable, cause recently i read that having your hair cut off or shaved off was a way of punishment for women who commit adultry. just wanted to add that. :)

and this is very useful info for me (i have very extensive essays on moss and rowan in my herbal, and this is the perfect addition: )

The rowan is probably Sif's tree: as mentioned in "Thonar", we know that the Lappish version of the thunder-god, Hora galles or "Þórr Karl", had a wife named "Rowan", to whom the tree's red berries were holy, and that Þórr clung to this tree against the flood of Geirröðr's daughter. Turville-Petre concludes from this that, "Probably the wife of Thór was once conceived in the form of a rowan, to which the god clung", also making reference to the special reverence given to this tree from the settlement of Iceland to the present day (Myth and Religion, p. 98). We may also note that the rowan is first crowned with white - "fair" blossoms, then loses them, but in their stead gets bright red berries; since, as we will remember, the Germanic people often spoke of gold as being "red", this could likewise be seen as showing the cropping and replacement of Sif's hair. If Sif is indeed the rowan-goddess, this sheds a little more light on her relationship with Thonar and the way in which the two of them work together. The rowan is first and foremost a tree of warding against all ill-willing magic and wights of the Outgarth: next to the hallowing and battle-might of Thonar's Hammer, we thus have the hallowing and magical might of Sif's rowan.

In his Teutonic Mythology (Volume 1), Jacob Grimm tells us that there is an herb (polytrichum aureum), that bears the name "haddr Sifjar" (Sif's hair). "Sifjar haddr" is the kenning for gold in Skaldskaparmal.
:floating:
i didn't find much info on polytrichum aurem, unfortunately. only two sites that had very antiquated german herbal stuff. i have a feeling the name has been changed to polytrichum formosa. it has golden tips, so i reckon this is the one.
(just in case anyone is interested in this nerdy herbal stuff. ;) )

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 03:59 PM

i find this very probable, cause recently i read that having your hair cut off or shaved off was a way of punishment for women who commit adultry. just wanted to add that. :)

it is mentioned in the Lay of Harbarth when Odin is taunting Thor that

48
"With Sif someone sleeps in her bower;
thy strength thou should'st stake against his!"

and the Lokasenna verse that correlates it

54
"That one thou wert,if thou wert indeed
shy and didnst shrink from men;
but one I wot,who well I know,
made a whore of Hlorrithi's wife:
sly Loki,Laufey's son."

man I really need to figure out how to do the Icelandic keyboard thingy.

mothwench

January 21st, 2005, 04:05 PM

man I really need to figure out how to do the Icelandic keyboard thingy.

some of them are on this page: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=51578&page=3&pp=10

yeah, i need to write them down on a post-it and stick it on my monitor.. or something. i always forget them, too.

edited to add: i have a ö on my keyboard. nyah! :nyah: jealous? ;)

Mjollnir

January 21st, 2005, 04:09 PM

edited to add: i have a ö on my keyboard. nyah! :nyah: jealous? ;)
Hel yes I am!!!!!!!!!!!

mothwench

January 21st, 2005, 04:16 PM

hehehe :spinnysmi

Nantonos

January 21st, 2005, 04:37 PM

Hel yes I am!!!!!!!!!!!

If yo are on Windows: start -> programs > accessories -> system tools -> character map. Set the font to something that covers a wide character range, like Arial Unicode MS or Lucida Sans Unicode. Then you can click on any character, see its name, double click and it adds to a copy buffer of characters. You can then paste into whatever you are writing.

Its how I do French (I have a US keyboard) and works for any language. Like this

French à la découverte d'un peuple gaulois
German Studien an Göttertypen der römischen Rheinprovinzen
Hungarian Antik művészet - vezető az Antik Gyűjtemény állandó kiállításához,
Greek κεφαλὴν δὲ καὶ κόμην εἰ̂χεν ἵππου

KellyP

January 21st, 2005, 04:43 PM

If yo are on Windows: start -> programs > accessories -> system tools -> character map. Set the font to something that covers a wide character range, like Arial Unicode MS or Lucida Sans Unicode. Then you can click on any character, see its name, double click and it adds to a copy buffer of characters. You can then paste into whatever you are writing.

Another alternative is http://www.sla.purdue.edu/academic/fll/akc.html.

Good luck.

Nantonos

January 21st, 2005, 04:46 PM

Frigg is also known as Frigga (Dutch), Frige (Anglo-Saxon), Frija (Old High German)

I see that some goddesses are labelled Norse, some Saxon, some are not labelled, and Frigga has both Norse, Saxon, and other Germanic names.

I'm also aware that proto-Germanic split into West (Saxon etc and thus English, Dutch..) North (Norse etc) and East (Gothic etc). I'm less clear where High German and Low German fit into that evolution.

Having been burned by Wicca 'the same as' assertions, I would appreciate help in clarifying what is meant in this context:

a) Frigg predates the split into multiple Germanic languages and thus her name is preserved in all of them
b) There is closely related lore for Frigg in multiple Germanic languages from which the identity naturally follows
c) There is lore in one language and the other names are inferred from knowledge of sound shifts in other languages
d) There is some lore in more than one language and they might be the same

:graduate: sorry to be pedantic. It really does help me understand things.

mothwench

January 21st, 2005, 05:00 PM

KellyP

January 21st, 2005, 05:06 PM

i didn't find much info on polytrichum aurem, unfortunately. only two sites that had very antiquated german herbal stuff. i have a feeling the name has been changed to polytrichum formosa. it has golden tips, so i reckon this is the one.
(just in case anyone is interested in this nerdy herbal stuff. ;) )

I am always interested in botany! So, while this is most likely off topic to the given thread, let me offer my findings.

Polytrichum aureum is only found in older references as you noted, with the common names golden-hair moss or golden-stem moss. Later, a few references seem to equate this same plant to Adiantum aureum whose common name is Golden maidenhair fern. Recently though, it appears that the plant was moved from the Adiantum genus into the Polytrichum genus. The Polytrichum genus has further undergone a 'simplification' wherein a species once labeled as P. formosum var aurianticum (like you said, following the description of golden) has been moved with other labels to now be P. longisetum. P. longisetum is native to Sweden as demonstrated by collections of the Swedish Museum of Natural History with specimens dating back to the mid-19th century.

Excellent plant sources include:
www.itis.usda.gov
plants.usda.gov
http://www.gbif.net/portal/index.jsp

Nantonos

January 21st, 2005, 05:10 PM

that's a very good question. my guess is west. i also wonder where i'm meant to place "gothic". :huh: bohemia-prussia-poland sort-of-thing, or am i really way off here?

Not way off at all (note in passing Bohemia - Boii - haeme ) - untill they swept south-west, that is. Similarly for the vandals, ostrogoths, burgundians, etc. After which, the answers were France, Spain, and North Africa :)

mothwench

January 21st, 2005, 05:22 PM

I am always interested in botany! So, while this is most likely off topic to the given thread, let me offer my findings.

Polytrichum aureum is only found in older references as you noted, with the common names golden-hair moss or golden-stem moss. Later, a few references seem to equate this same plant to Adiantum aureum whose common name is Golden maidenhair fern. Recently though, it appears that the plant was moved from the Adiantum genus into the Polytrichum genus. The Polytrichum genus has further undergone a 'simplification' wherein a species once labeled as P. formosum var aurianticum (like you said, following the description of golden) has been moved with other labels to now be P. longisetum. P. longisetum is native to Sweden as demonstrated by collections of the Swedish Museum of Natural History with specimens dating back to the mid-19th century.

Excellent plant sources include:
www.itis.usda.gov
plants.usda.gov
http://www.gbif.net/portal/index.jsp

thanks for those links, i can never get enough of them. :smile:
interesting that your sources say it's changed to adiantum, which is a fern (a very beautiful one, i've been looking for one for my room for ages.), because polytrichum is in fact a moss. their common names both have maiden's hair, or venus hair or similar "kennings". i'll have to read up on that in the meantime.
here's my thread on mosses, with polytrichum in post #2, in case you're interested. :)
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=807548#post807548

mothwench

January 21st, 2005, 05:27 PM

Not way off at all (note in passing Bohemia - Boii - haeme ) - untill they swept south-west, that is. Similarly for the vandals, ostrogoths, burgundians, etc. After which, the answers were France, Spain, and North Africa :)
this is one of these things i just can't get my head round, i always forget. :wah: and i need to read up on the goths, obviously. wait, the burgundians... moved down to switzerland, i believe. and the vandals who were they again? ack!

i so need to find a good simple idiot proof history site. *goes and asks the google oracle*

KellyP

January 21st, 2005, 06:03 PM

interesting that your sources say it's changed to adiantum, which is a fern (a very beautiful one, i've been looking for one for my room for ages.), because polytrichum is in fact a moss. their common names both have maiden's hair, or venus hair or similar "kennings". i'll have to read up on that in the meantime.
That was the one thing that was never clearly explained. I somehow think that some folks may have mislabeled it one time as Adiantum. You see that occasionally in taxonomy where two groups use the same genus for two completely different groups until one group finally gets adopted as the standard. Most likely, the shortest path was Polytrickum aureum -> P. formosum var aurtianticum -> P. longisetum.

However, I am no expert on mosses. The closest I get is mistletoe.

KellyP

January 21st, 2005, 06:12 PM

I'm also aware that proto-Germanic split into West (Saxon etc and thus English, Dutch..) North (Norse etc) and East (Gothic etc). I'm less clear where High German and Low German fit into that evolution.Inside the back cover of the American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary there is a diagram that portrays "The Indo-European Family of Languages". From there, I would summarize the relationships as

pIE -> Germanic -> West Germanic -> Old High German -> Middle High German -> High German

pIE -> Germanic -> West Germanic -> Old Saxon -> Middle Low German -> Low German

So both High and Low German are West Germanic in origin. Low German is shown as the only descendent of Old Saxon while Yiddish and High German are sister languages derived from OHGerman.

Hope that helps.

Rick

January 22nd, 2005, 12:15 AM

However, I am no expert on mosses. The closest I get is mistletoe.
Ya know... mistletoe is Oklahoma's state flower... or plant... or parasite... or somethin'... :whatgives :hehehehe:

KellyP

January 22nd, 2005, 01:02 AM

Ya know... mistletoe is Oklahoma's state flower... or plant... or parasite... or somethin'... :whatgives :hehehehe:
And I'm an Oklahoma boy through and through ...
Ooooooklahoma where the wind comes rushing down the plains ...
where the waving wheat, can sure smell sweet ...

Of course, when we get around to talking about Baldr, mistletoe will become a pertinent topic of discussion.

mucgwyrt

January 22nd, 2005, 10:31 AM

Could someone post dates for the writing of the sagas, as well as their geographical origins?

mucgwyrt

January 22nd, 2005, 10:43 AM

Ok people, everyone ready to tackle a review from Lesson Two???
Nerthus as well as Eostre to the best of my knowledge are more Anglo-Saxon/continental so for practical purposes they shall be omitted as Rick and I agree we should focus on what is found in the lore ....

So basically the heathenry class will only be taught from the viewpoint of the Sagas? Isn't that a bit limiting?

Nantonos

January 22nd, 2005, 11:07 AM

Could someone post dates for the writing of the sagas, as well as their geographical origins?

"Norse sagas were written in the 13th century,"
http://www.iridis.com/glivar/Viking

"The Eddas. The great corpus of Scandinavian mythology is contained in the two volumes called the Eddas. The Elder or Poetic Edda as we know it was compiled in the thirteenth century in Iceland, but some of its tales (at least) date back to the period of the early German migrations."
The Younger or Prose Edda (Snorra Edda)was written by Snorri Sturluson (1179-1241) around 1230.
http://www.legends.dm.net/sagas/northern.html

I came across a History of Medieval Greenland, which includes saga mentions in the timeline. Landnamabok given as around 920, Graenlendinga Saga 950-1020
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/grontime.html

This site discusses dating of the sagas and eddas, 9th-13th century. Its worth noting that the Norse literature seems to have been maiinly written in Iceland, which was Norse speaking.
http://www.nat.is/travelguideeng/icelandic_literature.htm

Mucgwyrt, do you have dating info on the Angle and Saxon sources?

mucgwyrt

January 22nd, 2005, 11:25 AM

Aye, that I do :toofless:
(Are there any you want specifically?)

Beowulf, although written down approximately somewhere between 700ad and 1000ad (vague or what?), is an obvious rewrite of an older manuscript, because several 'mistakes' with names are made.
However in his book 'Somerset Dragons", Brian Wright (another one for my bibliog.!) suggests ont he strength of old carvings that Beowulf at the very least dates to the 5th century, and is possibley even an amalgamation of a Danish tale (obviously), brought over during the migration by the Saxons from their homeland, and a much simpler, local (local i.e. wessex.... presumabley celtic?) version.

Lacnunga - late 10c/early 11th

Leechbook - Middle of the 10th (our earliest record of medical charms) written at three seperate stages, indicated by the difference in language and the addition of latin in the third section.

From what I gather, the other charms are independent bits of writing which modern authors have cobbled tohether, so all have varying dates.

Nantonos

January 22nd, 2005, 11:25 AM

I'm finding good info on the relationsip of different deities in The Troth , which is online. In particular, I just read a good critique of Dumézil''s tripatite theory and where it breaks down or is not too helpful:

In short, for the Dumézilian system to stand up within Germanic religion, one must pass over all descriptions of the practise and history of the elder troth in favour of the latest and most literary descriptions of it.
http://www.thetroth.org/resources/ourtroth/gods.html

I must admit that hammering all deities into one of three holes seems even less attractive a prospect than trying to hammer them into one of ten holes. :goodgrief

That same page also (although its supposed to be about the goddesses, which is why I am reading it) mentions that Óðinnis the clear primary deity in te Prose Edda but that Þórr was chief god in Norse (presumably, Norwegian?) contexts and Freyr in Sweden. Does this mean that there was a shifting of power and influence in different areas and different times?

I'm still tring to get clear characteristics of the Æsir and Vanir. The more I read the less distinct they seem.

mucgwyrt

January 22nd, 2005, 11:30 AM

I'm finding good info on the relationsip of different deities in The Troth , which is online. In particular, I just read a good critique of Dumézil''s tripatite theory and where it breaks down or is not too helpful:

http://www.thetroth.org/resources/ourtroth/gods.html

I must admit that hammering all deities into one of three holes seems even less attractive a prospect than trying to hammer them into one of ten holes. :goodgrief

That same page also (although its supposed to be about the goddesses, which is why I am reading it) mentions that Óðinnis the clear primary deity in te Prose Edda but that Þórr was chief god in Norse (presumably, Norwegian?) contexts and Freyr in Sweden. Does this mean that there was a shifting of power and influence in different areas and different times?

I'm still tring to get clear characteristics of the Æsir and Vanir. The more I read the less distinct they seem.
I think I have read that that was the case, yes - but as usual I can't remember where :rotfl:

I'd love to know who the 'primary' god in anglo-saxon britain was. Woden is the only god ever to be mentioned in metrical charms, but that doesn't mean others were't, of course - especially considering that it seems a lot of Gods (most notabley one considered to be the 'sun god' - Ing?) were edited out in later centuries in favour of the christian god.

mucgwyrt

January 22nd, 2005, 11:30 AM

"Norse sagas were written in the 13th century,"
http://www.iridis.com/glivar/Viking

"The Eddas. The great corpus of Scandinavian mythology is contained in the two volumes called the Eddas. The Elder or Poetic Edda as we know it was compiled in the thirteenth century in Iceland, but some of its tales (at least) date back to the period of the early German migrations."
The Younger or Prose Edda (Snorra Edda)was written by Snorri Sturluson (1179-1241) around 1230.
http://www.legends.dm.net/sagas/northern.html

I came across a History of Medieval Greenland, which includes saga mentions in the timeline. Landnamabok given as around 920, Graenlendinga Saga 950-1020
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/grontime.html

This site discusses dating of the sagas and eddas, 9th-13th century. Its worth noting that the Norse literature seems to have been maiinly written in Iceland, which was Norse speaking.
http://www.nat.is/travelguideeng/icelandic_literature.htm

Mucgwyrt, do you have dating info on the Angle and Saxon sources?

All reasonabley late then :uhhuhuh: thanks nantonos.

Nantonos

January 22nd, 2005, 11:37 AM

Except for Hella, Frija was (so far as we know) the most widely known of the early Germanic goddesses. Her name appears in Old Norse, Anglo-Saxon, and on the continent; as chief among the goddesses, it was her name that was used for the sole feminine weekday as a translation for "Venus" - from which we get the modern English "Friday". She is Wodan's wife not only in the Old Norse materials, but in the Continental Origio gentum[sic] Langobardorum, where she likewise uses her wits to trick him into giving victory to the menfolk of a woman who had prayed to her for help.
http://www.thetroth.org/resources/ourtroth/frija.html

Goes on to have a discussion of etymology, characteristics, and sumarizing mentions in the lore.

Nantonos

January 22nd, 2005, 11:39 AM

ORIGO GENTIUM LANGOBARDUM
The Origin of the Lombard Nation
Written c. 650 AD
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/langobard002/index.php

Starts with a modern English translation, has the original Latin text below.

Frigga is mentioned, a petition made to Frea, wife of Godan (fream, uxorem godam) for victory in battle.

Nantonos

January 22nd, 2005, 12:00 PM

Also listed as Frea in the Historia Langobardorum by Paul the Deacon
http://www.oeaw.ac.at/gema/lango%20paulus.htm#INCIPIT%20LIBER%20PRIMUS

Author was a historian, born at Friuli about 720; died 13 April, probably 799.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11591b.htm

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 22nd, 2005, 12:32 PM

So, I would think that Herjafather, refers to Odin as the leader of armies or raiders perhaps. Maybe a reference to Odin as father of 'vikings'?

I seem to recall reading somewhere (sorry can't recall the source, will have to go hunt it down) that Odin has, like the Irish Dagda, been referred to as the All Father. Perhaps Herjafather then is some sort of reference to the All Father title.

Rick

January 22nd, 2005, 12:39 PM

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 22nd, 2005, 12:52 PM

That's good. Glad I'm not (entirely) nuts in that recollection.

So Rick, is it possible that Herjafather is some sort of reference to Odin as the All Father?

KellyP

January 22nd, 2005, 12:58 PM

I seem to recall reading somewhere (sorry can't recall the source, will have to go hunt it down) that Odin has, like the Irish Dagda, been referred to as the All Father. Perhaps Herjafather then is some sort of reference to the All Father title.There are several definite references to Odin as the Alfödr in Snorri's Gylfaginning. Alarmingly, I cannot find my Faulkes translation of The Edda so I cannot recite page numbers or specific passages for you. However, in one particular passage, Gylfi asks who is the most important of the gods and is told that Odin is most important as he is the father of all gods and men. You will also see references to Odin as the Herfödr and the Valfödr.

Of course, the Völuspá notes that Ask and Embla (first man and woman) were "created" by the work of three entities: Odin, Hoenir and Lódur who gift them with spirit, voice and blood respectively. Snorri in the Gylfaginning however changes the creators to be the sons of Bur: Odin, Vili and Vé. Which leads one to question why Snorri might identify Odin as the only father of men.

mothwench

January 22nd, 2005, 01:55 PM

That's good. Glad I'm not (entirely) nuts in that recollection.

So Rick, is it possible that Herjafather is some sort of reference to Odin as the All Father?
:idea: oh, i just had a divine revelation (i think) ;)

herjafather = father to the slain (in battle)

because

einherjar (not sure i spelled that right) = slain warrior who goes to valhalla (odin's hall)

this is a guess... but it seems logical.
what does herja or herjar actually mean? chosen or something?

hehe we're really beating the crap out of this herjafather thing. :ballonsmi

mothwench

January 22nd, 2005, 02:05 PM

psssst! hey everyone... guess what i just found out... :2G:

:smile: it's rick's birthday today!! :yayhawaii: :boing:
*starts dishing out the cupcakes, and promptly passes out over all the exitement*

Rick

January 22nd, 2005, 06:15 PM

Aw, gawrsh, you're gonna make me blush... :hehehehe:

*ahem* I believe the literal interpretation of einherjar is one harriers (ein=one, herja=harrier, herjar=plural). Um... it's difficult to try to explain the meaning outside of the context of 1000-1500 years ago, but basically One Harrier is a dedicant to Odin whose ultimate goal in life is to reach Valhalla. But that doesn't imply a death wish... like I said, it's not easily put into words... well, not by me, anyway. Check out Masks of Odin by Elsa-Brita Titchenell... once you cut through the Theosophist stuff, it contains some interesting concepts...

Mjollnir

January 22nd, 2005, 06:31 PM

So basically the heathenry class will only be taught from the viewpoint of the Sagas? Isn't that a bit limiting?

As it pertains to the gods/goddesses we will use the sagas, myths and other lore as well.......and you would be suprised how much information is in the sagas.

Mjollnir

January 22nd, 2005, 07:20 PM

There are several definite references to Odin as the Alfödr in Snorri's Gylfaginning. Alarmingly, I cannot find my Faulkes translation of The Edda so I cannot recite page numbers or specific passages for you. However, in one particular passage, Gylfi asks who is the most important of the gods and is told that Odin is most important as he is the father of all gods and men. You will also see references to Odin as the Herfödr and the Valfödr.

From Gylfaginning: pg 31 prose Edda, Jean L. Young translation.

"Gylfi began his questioning:'Who is the foremost or oldest of all the gods?'

High One replied:'He is called All-Father in our tongue, but in ancient Asgard he had twelve names: one is All-Father; the second,Herran or herjan; the third, Nikar or Hnikar; the fourth, Nikuz or Hnikud; the fifth, Fjolnir; the sixth, Oski; the seventh, Omni; the eight, Biflidi or Biflindi; the ninth, Svidar; the tenth, Svidrir; the eleventh, Vidrir; the twelfth, Jalg or Jalk.'

Then Gangleri asked: 'Where is that god? What power has he? What great deeds has he done?'

High one said:'He lives for ever and ever, and rules over the whole of his kingdom and governs all things great and small.'

Then Just-as-High said:'He created heaven and earth and the sky and all that in them is.'

Then Third said:' His greatest achievement, however, is the making of man and giving hima soul which will live and never die, although his body may decay to dust or burn to ashes. All righteous men shall live and be with him where it is called Gimle or Vingolf, but wicked men will go to Hel and thenceto Niflhel that is down in the ninth world.'

There is also mention again of Odin fathering the race of men on page 37.
I was unable to find Herfödr and Valfödr possibly due to the translator.

KellyP

January 22nd, 2005, 11:36 PM

what does herja or herjar actually mean? chosen or something?I provided a definition of herja in another post:
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1576128&postcount=22

Herjar would be one who harries or freeboots ... a raider as it were ... or harrier as Rick notes. I have seen einherjar written as "lone raider".

hehe we're really beating the crap out of this herjafather thing. :ballonsmiAnd I for one don't mind a bit. Let's beat all the horses dead or otherwise.

Mjollnir

January 23rd, 2005, 12:19 AM

Nantonos

January 23rd, 2005, 02:52 AM

I know this discussion is going pretty good but does anyone have any questions about the goddesses in particular? either from what aefentid originally posted or what I posted/ i know it went a little bit off topic and all but before I get to Lesson 3 I wondered if anyone had anything goddess related they wanted to discuss, other than that things are going pretty well I think.

I did post some questions, yes, if you scroll past the all father part of the thread. I asked here
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1576570&postcount=33
about 'equivalence'' of various goddess names, and here
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1577714&postcount=47
about how the Æsir and Vanir differ; there more I find out the more they seem to overlap. Rather than each covering specific functions they seem to be more like two complete pantheons. Did one Germanic people take over a different group, so their deities coalesced? Did that produce the war between the Æsir and Vanir?

Mjollnir

January 23rd, 2005, 09:54 AM

I did post some questions, yes, if you scroll past the all father part of the thread. I asked here
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1576570&postcount=33
about 'equivalence'' of various goddess names, and here
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1577714&postcount=47
about how the Æsir and Vanir differ; there more I find out the more they seem to overlap. Rather than each covering specific functions they seem to be more like two complete pantheons. Did one Germanic people take over a different group, so their deities coalesced? Did that produce the war between the Æsir and Vanir?

I have yet to come across any information regarding who or what started the war, just that they were at war and once a treaty was struck, "hostages" exchanged etc. etc.

KellyP

January 23rd, 2005, 10:11 AM

Rather than each covering specific functions they seem to be more like two complete pantheons. Did one Germanic people take over a different group, so their deities coalesced? Did that produce the war between the Æsir and Vanir?
I do not have any information specific to the Germanic gods, but several researchers have theorized that the presence of the two-tiered system (Aesir and Vanir in this case) represents an initial struggle for the priest and warrior castes to assert their supremacy over the producer class.

While I agree that you cannot take Dumezil's theory and force every pantheon of history into the three classes, I do believe that many early IE societies do appear to follow the broad outlines of his tripartition. Later as they developed and began to enter written history, they diverged from the early patterns. With all that said ...

The early Vanir may have represented the producer class and by having the war between the two there was a portrayal of the class struggle. The primary role of the Aesir and the inhabitants of Asgard may very well represent the portrayal of the warrior/priest class as more important. Over time, those Vanir that were in Asgard were given more warrior/priest functions so that they better fit into the mold of the Aesir.

I personally believe the giants represent the beliefs of the earlier inhabitants of the geography later overlaid with the Germanic pantheon that we know. Many other pantheons feature the favored gods battling less defined elder gods or beings in order to gain supremacy. The Greek titans, the Firbolgs of Celtic beliefs, etc. I believe we see this in the fact that most of Odin's parentage appears giant-like, that Ymir was giantlike, etc.

Much of this of course is summary of the readings I have made from a few good sources:
In Search of the Indo-Europeans by Mallory
Comparative Mythology by Puhvel
Heeaven, Herores and Happiness by Shan M. M. Winn

KellyP

January 23rd, 2005, 10:13 AM

What goal does Freya's taking of half the battle slain serve? We know the einherhar taken by Odin go to Valholl to await service at Ragnarok. Is there mythic tales of the use of Freya's slain?

Mjollnir

January 23rd, 2005, 12:07 PM

What goal does Freya's taking of half the battle slain serve? We know the einherhar taken by Odin go to Valholl to await service at Ragnarok. Is there mythic tales of the use of Freya's slain?

Poetic Edda:Hollander
Grimnismal
14.
Folkvang the ninth, where Freya chooses
who seats shall have in her hall:
half of the slain are hers each day,
and half are Othins own.

The same is pretty much said in Gylfaginning. I am not aware of any tales as to their use by Freya. I do not know if there is a "goal" in essence of why she takes them, they are einherjar after all and will still fight at Ragnarok, she apparently just gets half.

banondraig

January 23rd, 2005, 03:34 PM

this is kind of a nitpick, but when Our Troth refers to Freyja as "the Frowe", how is that pronounced? would it be like german Frau, or different?

Rick

January 24th, 2005, 01:00 AM

this is kind of a nitpick, but when Our Troth refers to Freyja as "the Frowe", how is that pronounced? would it be like german Frau, or different?
As far as I know, it's pronounced the same.

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 24th, 2005, 08:54 AM

And I for one don't mind a bit. Let's beat all the horses dead or otherwise.

Just leave the high horse out of any beatings. :razz:

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 24th, 2005, 08:58 AM

Yes, I have specific goddess questions. In fact I had a nice long post typed up on Saturday, had just a bit more to add to it and my husband asked to borrow the computer real quick and then the browser shut down. He didn't do anything other then open a new tab, but for some reason Mozilla has been doing that to us. :wtf:

Anyhow, let me get the questions together again, and I will post them shortly.

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 24th, 2005, 09:48 AM

Mjollnir

January 24th, 2005, 11:12 AM

We discussed this before in the first round of the classes, but I we never really came up with a good answer, so I thought I would pose it to you and Rick. In the article at Our Troth, they mention that modern Heathens associate Frija/Frigg with geese. Now from what I could find there isn’t really mention of such an association in the lore of such a relation. Now her hall is supposed to be located in a fen which are marshy and watery and I would assume it would be a likely location for geese to congregate. Is this where that association comes from or there more to it?

Along the same vein, why do some people believe Mother Goose to be a later incarnation of Frija/Frigg?

I'll get back to you on this, its news to me.

Are Frija/Frigg’s handmaiden’s typically seen as being separate goddesses, like Fulla is or are they believed to be either epithets for the goddess or as another type of being?

I have heard accounts where the discussion looked at them in both ways, but I have yet to see anything in the lore but I will look more.

This is another that never really got answered, so I’m just going to copy the whole question over and see what you all have to say. Grimm mentions that the Old Norse word fres "means both he-cat and bear, it has lately been contended, not without reason, that köttum may have been substituted for fressum, and a brace of bears have been really meant for the goddess." Other than the fact that the word could mean both bear or he-cat, is there any evidence that Freyja’s chariot is drawn by anything but cats? I mean the rest of the paragraph seemed to present pretty clear evidence that they couldn't be anything but cats. I'm not really sure, why with such overwhelming evidence, people would think otherwise.

I will look further into that but everything I have seen it is cats and nothing else.

If Skadi is a giant, why is she typically counted as a member of the gods? I mean I realize that she married one of the gods, but she’s still a giant so why not name her one instead of a goddess? It’s even more confusing why she would take the side of the gods at Ragnorak if she is a giant. Thoughts?

Even though she is married to Njord and then in some places it is said Ullr after her and Njord split up but it is what Skadhi is, and I dont mean just a giantess that differentiates her from being a goddess. I also do not know
you might wanna also check this: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/skadave/index.html

I have the same question about Hel. If her father is Loki and her mother is also a giant, why is she counted among the gods, and even given a portion of the dead? And at Ragnorak, does she fight on the side of the gods or does she join Loki and fight on the other side?

You could say the same for Loki as he is of etin lineage, his father Farbauti and his mother Laufey were both giants. She has the status of a goddess yet at the same time depicted as somewhat uneasy on the eyes, I have not read anything of her participation at Ragnarok. It is important to realize also that Hel/Fenris/Jormungand...being Loki's offspring and therefore a threat to the gods that were very much aware of...were each cast out in one way or another, Jormungand cast into the sea, Fenrir fettered by Gleipnir and Hela cast into Helheim to rule the dead in Niflheim, yet curiously enough Jormungand and Fenrir both "fight" at Ragnarok and also die, Jormungand by Thor, Fenrir by Vidar, but Hela is mentioned nowhere that I have found.

Also, in the Gylfaginning translation you gave, it says that ‘All righteous men shall live and be with him where it is called Gimle or Vingolf, but wicked men will go to Hel and thenceto Niflhel that is down in the ninth world.' I thought that Hel wasn’t exactly a place for the wicked, like the Christian conception of Hell, but more a place where those who died of sickness, disease, and old age went. And can you explain Niflhel to me? Is it a separate place from Hel or is it a division of Hel?

Hel is a place for those who did not die in battle so yes, it is not like the xian version of hell, but after Ragnarok there will be a hall for the punishment of murderers, oath breakers, and philanderers but everyone else will be ok, think of it as solitary confinement.

"Niflheim is the far northern region of icy fogs and mists, darkness and cold. It is situated on the lowest level of the universe. The realm of death, Helheim is part of the vast, cold region. Niflheim lies underneath the third root of Yggdrasil, close to the spring Hvergelmir ("roaring cauldron"). Also situated on this level is Nastrond, the Shore of Corpses, where the serpent Nidhogg eats corpses and gnaws on the roots of Yggdrasil."

Helheim is located in Niflheim

The goddess Sunna/Sol is mentioned in conjunction with her brother as having been taken from their father and placed in the sky in retribution for his arrogance. Now the section from the Prose Edda that discusses them seems to go on and explain what happens to Sunna/Sol, but I don’t recall reading anything about her brother, who it appears the father called moon. I was under the impression that the moon was also a goddess, is this incorrect?

Sol is chased by Skoll during the day, and catches her at Ragnarok, her brother Mani is chased at night by Hati so he is male.

Also, I read in one of the articles can’t remember which, but I think it was in relation to Frija/Frigg or Freyja, something about etin-kin. What are etin-kin?

etin/Jotun is another word for the giants so it would mean gint-kin.

Let me know if this is enough, lol I am at work and need something to do. _taparoo_

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 24th, 2005, 11:23 AM

Mjollnir

January 24th, 2005, 11:27 AM

Damn those darn unanswerable questions. I am really curious about the geese thing.

Thanks for the Skadi link. I'll have to take a look at that.

(I know what you mean abotu being bored at work, my job is in the process of transitioning, so all of my old work is gone, but they've not started training me for the new position.)

i cannot remember if I had heard anything about the geese thing, but I will see what I can come up with. If not, hopefully Rick can help.

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 24th, 2005, 11:38 AM

That would be great. It's just been bothering me because it was mentioned at Our Troth (or the Troth?) and from what I understood they are considered to be one of the best sources online for Heathen info.

Rick

January 24th, 2005, 02:07 PM

Damn those darn unanswerable questions. I am really curious about the geese thing.

Thanks for the Skadi link. I'll have to take a look at that.

(I know what you mean abotu being bored at work, my job is in the process of transitioning, so all of my old work is gone, but they've not started training me for the new position.)
i cannot remember if I had heard anything about the geese thing, but I will see what I can come up with. If not, hopefully Rick can help.
The Mother Goose thing is new to me, too...

Rick

January 24th, 2005, 02:34 PM

I see that some goddesses are labelled Norse, some Saxon, some are not labelled, and Frigga has both Norse, Saxon, and other Germanic names.

I'm also aware that proto-Germanic split into West (Saxon etc and thus English, Dutch..) North (Norse etc) and East (Gothic etc). I'm less clear where High German and Low German fit into that evolution.

Having been burned by Wicca 'the same as' assertions, I would appreciate help in clarifying what is meant in this context:

a) Frigg predates the split into multiple Germanic languages and thus her name is preserved in all of them
b) There is closely related lore for Frigg in multiple Germanic languages from which the identity naturally follows
c) There is lore in one language and the other names are inferred from knowledge of sound shifts in other languages
d) There is some lore in more than one language and they might be the same
Ok, I got the short straw, so will attempt to answer this one (no negative reflection on the questioner, it's just a very complex question... but at least it's a 'multiple choice' :hehehehe: )...

a) Frigg predates the split into multiple Germanic languages and thus her name is preserved in all of them
I think that this is likely. Don't have the reference handy, but I recall seeing somewhere that Frigg's lineage is Jotun (of course, which of the Teutonic Gods don't have Jotun lineage?), that she may herself have been a Giantess; my point is, this indicates that she existed prior to the IE influence, & would pre-date said language split.

b) There is closely related lore for Frigg in multiple Germanic languages from which the identity naturally follows
There are historical references to Frigg (or one of her kennings) in multiple Germanic languages... place names, etc.

c) There is lore in one language and the other names are inferred from knowledge of sound shifts in other languages
There is Lore recorded Old High German & in Old Norse. The extrapolations of language can be followed.

d) There is some lore in more than one language and they might be the same
Even allowing for linguistic (dialectic) differences, the stories are easily recognized as telling the same (or similiar) tale.

Nantonos

January 24th, 2005, 05:47 PM

This is another that never really got answered, so I’m just going to copy the whole question over and see what you all have to say. Grimm mentions that the Old Norse word fres "means both he-cat and bear, it has lately been contended, not without reason, that köttum may have been substituted for fressum, and a brace of bears have been really meant for the goddess." Other than the fact that the word could mean both bear or he-cat, is there any evidence that Freyja’s chariot is drawn by anything but cats? I mean the rest of the paragraph seemed to present pretty clear evidence that they couldn't be anything but cats. I'm not really sure, why with such overwhelming evidence, people would think otherwise.
To resolve that, it might be helpful to see when cats were first domesticated.
Bear is interesting, especially in view of the Bear-goddess from Berne in Switzerland.

If Skadi is a giant, why is she typically counted as a member of the gods? I mean I realize that she married one of the gods, but she’s still a giant so why not name her one instead of a goddess? It’s even more confusing why she would take the side of the gods at Ragnorak if she is a giant. Thoughts?

I see that Rick wroite:

... Frigg's lineage is Jotun (of course, which of the Teutonic Gods don't have Jotun lineage?), that she may herself have been a Giantess; my point is, this indicates that she existed prior to the IE influence, ...

So, the Ettin/Giants are seen as deities of a pre-IE substrate people onto which the IE root religion was joined, they became giants not gods, thus producing the proto-Germanic religion which developed from it?

Mjollnir

January 24th, 2005, 06:11 PM

Other than the fact that the word could mean both bear or he-cat, is there any evidence that Freyja’s chariot is drawn by anything but cats? I mean the rest of the paragraph seemed to present pretty clear evidence that they couldn't be anything but cats. I'm not really sure, why with such overwhelming evidence, people would think otherwise.

To resolve that, it might be helpful to see when cats were first domesticated.
Bear is interesting, especially in view of the Bear-goddess from Berne in Switzerland

This is what I was able to find regarding the cats, I have not found anything to contradict it.

Gylfaginning: page 53 Jean L Young translation

'Her hall is Sessrumnir is large and beautiful. When she goes on a journey she sits in a chariot drawn by two cats.'

The Norse Myths: Kevin Crossley-Holland

Introduction pg xxx
Freya is also associated with war. She rode to battle in a chariot drawn by two cats and the eddaic poem Grimnismal says that she divided the slain with Odin.

The Death of Balder: pg 157

Freyr had come to the cremation in his chariot drawn by Gullinbursti, the gold bristled boar fashioned for him by the dwarfs Brokk and Eitri. Heimdall had ridden out of Asgard on his mount Gold Tuft. And Freya sat in her chariot drawn by cats.

The Lay of Hyndla: Hollander translation
Stanza 5

"Take one of thy wolves from his wonted stall,
with my boar let him leap on our way."(9)

Note 9: The boar is elsewhere the animal sacred to her brother Frey. See the reference in Note 8 above. Generally, Freya's chariot has a span of cats.

Rick

January 24th, 2005, 06:29 PM

To resolve that, it might be helpful to see when cats were first domesticated.
Bear is interesting, especially in view of the Bear-goddess from Berne in Switzerland.
As far as I know, cats were domesticated before bears... :nonono: :hehehehe:

I see that Rick wrote:

So, the Ettin/Giants are seen as deities of a pre-IE substrate people onto which the IE root religion was joined, they became giants not gods, thus producing the proto-Germanic religion which developed from it?
That's my take on it...

Nantonos

January 24th, 2005, 07:09 PM

As far as I know, cats were domesticated before bears... :nonono: :hehehehe:
:rollingla ya think?

Domestic cats were from Egypt - they were common in southern europe in Roman times, but separate from the northern (ie scottish wildcat) cats. I was wondering which animal people would be more familiar with in, say, Denmark, in the first few centuries CE.

Nantonos

January 24th, 2005, 07:15 PM

This is what I was able to find regarding the cats, I have not found anything to contradict it.

Gylfaginning: page 53 Jean L Young translation

'Her hall is Sessrumnir is large and beautiful. When she goes on a journey she sits in a chariot drawn by two cats.'

What does it say in the original, and what is the oldest ms of this?

OK got it in the original language
http://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/gylf.htm

Salur hennar, Sessrúmnir, hann er mikill og fagur. En er hún fer þá ekur hún köttum tveim og situr í reið.

Mjollnir

January 24th, 2005, 07:31 PM

What does it say in the original, and what is the oldest ms of this?

OK got it in the original language
http://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/gylf.htm

Salur hennar, Sessrúmnir, hann er mikill og fagur. En er hún fer þá ekur hún köttum tveim og situr í reið.

I will pass that site onto one of my kinsmen, he does some translating and I'll see if it corresponds to what I posted. As far as the rest of what I posted, it seems convincing to me that it was just cats, although I have yet to look in anything else I have, I just happened to have those with me at work today.

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 24th, 2005, 09:38 PM

Mjollnir

January 24th, 2005, 10:24 PM

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 24th, 2005, 10:29 PM

Don't worry about it. I don't think I explained it very clearly before.

KellyP

January 24th, 2005, 10:47 PM

It was the kottum I was questioning. In the original article I quoted from it mentioned that the word fres means both bear and cat and that there is reason to believe that köttum may have been substituted for fressum and thus it could be either bear or cat. However they don't give the reasons why some believe that it originally was fressum and not köttum. That is what I was wondering about, the evidence for such speculation. When you folks get tired of me, just shoo me away.

But, until then, I went digging into Zoega's Icelandic dictionary to find
fress (pl. -ar), m. (1) tom-cat (eigandi fressa, Freyja); (2) bear.As one can see from the definition of Zoega the same word does appear to mean male-cat and bear. Further, he makes a specific reference to Freyja with the terms eigandi fressa. The term eigandi is a little more difficult, ei- appears to be the adverb ever as in everlasting or forever. While gandi appears to refer to either magic as in gandr for magic wand, or perhaps witch as in gand-reid meaning witch-ride.

You may not be able to definitively prove or disprove the fressum->kottum alteration theory. As it appears, Snorri originally used the Icelandic kottum in his version. You would have to find the original reference in the earlier Codices and even it may post-date the alteration.

Not sure if any of this helps, but I always seem to learn something in looking. :smile:

Nantonos

January 25th, 2005, 05:17 AM

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 29th, 2005, 06:56 PM

I know we're already past the goddesses, but I came across something that I really wanted to bring up.

Hilds Ellis Davidson in her book The Lost Beliefs of Northern Europe suggests that Freyja and Frigg may have once been the same goddess.

On page 70: "The greatest of the goddesses was Freyja, sister of Freyr and daughter of Njord; she is a goddess of many names, and may originally have been the same as Frigg, the wife of Odin, since elsewhere in Germanic tradition we har only of one goddess, Frija (Frigga), who was the wife of the sky god."

On page 108: " "In Scandinavian tradition the main goddess appears to be Freyja, sister and perhaps also bride of Freyr; the names of these two Vanir deities are really titles, meaning "Lord" and "Lady", and Snorri tells us that Freyja had many other names. There is also the goddess Frigg, wife of Odin and therefore Queen of Heaven, who figures in the myths as the weeping mother, lamenting the fall of her son Balder and later that of Odin, her 'second woe' as Voluspa expresses it. It seems as if these two figures with similar names may indeed be two aspects of the same deity. Sometimes it is Freyja who is paired off with Odin in the tales and she too is represented as a weeping goddess, shedding tears of gold; her tears serve as a favorite poetic symbol for gold in the kennings. Why Freyja weeps is not altogether clear; she is said to be searchign for her husband, of whom we know nothing, but since he is called Od he may be a doublet of Odin."

She also has this to say about Skadhi and Idhun on page 85- 86: "The goddesses were clearly important in northern religion, yet only Frigg and Freyja play any main part in the tales, while there are brief appearances of Skadi, daughter of Thjazi the giant, Gefion, who plughed the island of Sjaelland out of Sweden, and Idun who guarded the golden apples; it is possible that these last two are to be identified with Freyja under different names.

I'm curious as to why she makes these suggestions, any thoughts?

Mjollnir

January 29th, 2005, 07:29 PM

I know we're already past the goddesses, but I came across something that I really wanted to bring up.

No problem at all.

Hilds Ellis Davidson in her book The Lost Beliefs of Northern Europe suggests that Freyja and Frigg may have once been the same goddess.

On page 70: "The greatest of the goddesses was Freyja, sister of Freyr and daughter of Njord; she is a goddess of many names, and may originally have been the same as Frigg, the wife of Odin, since elsewhere in Germanic tradition we har only of one goddess, Frija (Frigga), who was the wife of the sky god."

On page 108: " "In Scandinavian tradition the main goddess appears to be Freyja, sister and perhaps also bride of Freyr; the names of these two Vanir deities are really titles, meaning "Lord" and "Lady", and Snorri tells us that Freyja had many other names. There is also the goddess Frigg, wife of Odin and therefore Queen of Heaven, who figures in the myths as the weeping mother, lamenting the fall of her son Balder and later that of Odin, her 'second woe' as Voluspa expresses it. It seems as if these two figures with similar names may indeed be two aspects of the same deity. Sometimes it is Freyja who is paired off with Odin in the tales and she too is represented as a weeping goddess, shedding tears of gold; her tears serve as a favorite poetic symbol for gold in the kennings. Why Freyja weeps is not altogether clear; she is said to be searchign for her husband, of whom we know nothing, but since he is called Od he may be a doublet of Odin."

I have heard this as well. Freya and Frigg, while it is true some believe they are aspects of the same goddess are in fact though seperate, each with their own function.

She also has this to say about Skadhi and Idhun on page 85- 86: "The goddesses were clearly important in northern religion, yet only Frigg and Freyja play any main part in the tales, while there are brief appearances of Skadi, daughter of Thjazi the giant, Gefion, who plughed the island of Sjaelland out of Sweden, and Idun who guarded the golden apples; it is possible that these last two are to be identified with Freyja under different names.

I'm curious as to why she makes these suggestions, any thoughts?

Oh hell no................I would hate to show this to one of my kinsmen, he is dedicated to Skadhi. They too are very much individual, just because you do not hear much of them does not mean they are "another" interpretation of a particular goddess. Gefion, who is only mentioned sparingly...Lokasenna for example...is not only supposed to be prophetic, but is also the "keeper" of those who die unwed. Freya was a Van, Skadhi a jotun and Idun possibly a Van as well, but they are nonetheless individual.

Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill

January 29th, 2005, 08:59 PM

That's what I thought, but I was confused because I seem to remember that this author is typically fairly good and well-respected, but the idea that all the goddesses are just one appears to have crept into her work and that is a bit wonky to me.

mucgwyrt

January 30th, 2005, 06:25 AM

Hilds Ellis Davidson in her book The Lost Beliefs of Northern Europe suggests that Freyja and Frigg may have once been the same goddess.

On page 70: "The greatest of the goddesses was Freyja, sister of Freyr and daughter of Njord; she is a goddess of many names, and may originally have been the same as Frigg, the wife of Odin, since elsewhere in Germanic tradition we har only of one goddess, Frija (Frigga), who was the wife of the sky god."

On page 108: " "In Scandinavian tradition the main goddess appears to be Freyja, sister and perhaps also bride of Freyr; the names of these two Vanir deities are really titles, meaning "Lord" and "Lady", and Snorri tells us that Freyja had many other names. There is also the goddess Frigg, wife of Odin and therefore Queen of Heaven, who figures in the myths as the weeping mother, lamenting the fall of her son Balder and later that of Odin, her 'second woe' as Voluspa expresses it. It seems as if these two figures with similar names may indeed be two aspects of the same deity. Sometimes it is Freyja who is paired off with Odin in the tales and she too is represented as a weeping goddess, shedding tears of gold; her tears serve as a favorite poetic symbol for gold in the kennings. Why Freyja weeps is not altogether clear; she is said to be searchign for her husband, of whom we know nothing, but since he is called Od he may be a doublet of Odin."

I have heard this as well. Freya and Frigg, while it is true some believe they are aspects of the same goddess are in fact though seperate, each with their own function.

I dont think the freyja-frigg thing would work.
OK, so frigg is aesir, right? (I'm not too good at this geaneology stuff, so I may be wrong), wheres Freyja and Freyr are Vanir. If we float with the theory that the vanir and aesir were originally two sets of dieties from two different cultures, then they couldn't possibley have started out as the same diety, surely? :whatgives

Nantonos

January 30th, 2005, 06:40 AM

I dont think the freyja-frigg thing would work.
OK, so frigg is aesir, right? (I'm not too good at this geaneology stuff, so I may be wrong), wheres Freyja and Freyr are Vanir. If we float with the theory that the vanir and aesir were originally two sets of dieties from two different cultures, then they couldn't possibley have started out as the same diety, surely? :whatgives

Well they could *possibly*, but its not clear they did. For example, she could have been a proto-Germanic deity whose lore then forked as one group took it one way and one group took it a different way. These would then become two separate deities as the two cultures fused/fought/joined up again.

mucgwyrt

January 30th, 2005, 06:51 AM

Ahhh I seeeee :uhhuhuh:

mothwench

January 30th, 2005, 10:26 AM

hmmmmm-hm. now all we have to do is add the theory that frigg is hel in the guise of frau holle and what do we get? gimme an M! gimme an M! gimme a C!
wheeeee! :thewave:

<---sorry. bad mood today.

Nantonos

January 30th, 2005, 10:30 AM

hmmmmm-hm. now all we have to do is add the theory that frigg is hel in the guise of frau holle and what do we get? gimme an M! gimme an M! gimme a C!
wheeeee! :thewave:

<---sorry. bad mood today.

Mothy, that was evil. Go and stand in the corner. :bubbles:

ETA: And Baldur is the oak king aspect of Odin, right? :whatmewor :excuseme:

mucgwyrt

January 30th, 2005, 11:28 AM

:rotfl: @ mothy and nantonos :D

Why are you in a bad mood mothy? :hugz: :smoochypo

banondraig

January 30th, 2005, 04:18 PM

hmmmmm-hm. now all we have to do is add the theory that frigg is hel in the guise of frau holle and what do we get? gimme an M! gimme an M! gimme a C!
wheeeee! :thewave:

<---sorry. bad mood today.

:woah: ack! noooooo!!!! not that! anything but that!

why the bad mood? :huddle:

mothwench

January 30th, 2005, 06:35 PM

i'm ok now. :smile: was just grouchy earlier. wimmins problems and all the ickiness, you know...

Mjollnir

February 5th, 2005, 03:35 PM

I know it is a little "late" but in regards to the Herjafather question I found another mention of it.

The Lay of Vafthruthnir

(Frigg said)
"At home had I Herjafather rather
in the garth of the gods;
there's no match in might among thurses
to that all-wise etin."