Why.....

[Mariposa De La Luna]

are the Equinoxes and Solstices called the Lesser Sabbats and the cross-quarter days the Greater sabbats? I don't think I've read an explaination of this except for the titles.

[Mairwen]

I think so, Sahm-I-Am, but I could be wrong.

[Ari]

As far as I know that's right, although I don't personally use those titles.

[Litha]

The Greater Sabbats are the cross quarter fire festivals
of Imbolc, Beltane, Lughnasadh and Samhain and the Lesser Sabbats are the quarter festivals of Ostara,
Summer Solstice, Mabon and Yule.
I beleve these feast days are Celtic in origin and so are more applicable for people of the northern hemisphere.

[Litha]

The Spring and Fall Equinoxes (times of equal-length day and night) and the Summer and Winter Solstices (longest and shortest day, respectively) each define the official beginning of a season as created by the christian calendar -- for example, Summer ``begins'' around June 21st.
However the less-used pagan parallel system holds that June 21st is actually Midsummer's Day, which then leaves the start of summer to be in early May.

This date and four others like it are known as the Cross-Quarter Days, because they are evenly spaced between the fundamental Quarter Days of the Solstices and Equinoxes. The Cross-Quarter Days thus mark the middle of each season under calandar system, or seasonal boundaries under the alternative system.

Due to the insertion of a Leap Day on February 29th every four years, the exact dates of these eight astronomical events shift back and forth, with a total range of about 54 hours.

Ancient peoples were very attentive to seasons and the Sun's position in the sky, because their livelihood depended on planting and harvesting at the proper times. All eight of the above-listed Days were observed as pagan holidays of one sort or another; a few, like Halloween, have survived to modern times in (somewhat) recognizable form.

What is more interesting is the number of supposedly modern holidays which lie in close proximity to pagan holidays of the same dates. Christmas (Winter Solstice) and Easter (Spring Equinox) are two obvious examples; one may make the argument that these holiday times were inherited. Others are quite surprising -- like Father's Day (Summer Solstice)!

[Ari]

Beltaine, Samhain, Imbolc and Lughnasadh are Celtic in origin, but Litha, Ostara and Yule are Anglo-Saxon. My source for this is academic, not neo-pagan ;) Mabon's the funny one, and seems to be the hardest to acurately trace...

If I had to hazard a guess at why the equinoxes and solstices are the 'lesser' sabbats, it's possibly because Wicca has a primarily Celtic basis and the Quarters aren't Celtic festivals?

I, and most of the other southern-hemisphere pagans I know, push the dates forward 6 months for each holiday so that the seasons fit, and make minor adjustments to the themes where necessary (like emphasising the shift to the dying year at midsummer, when it's oppresively hot rather than fertile.)

[Mairwen]

It's been, in the research I've done, noted that the Equinoxes were not celebrated until recent years when Celtic-Reconstructionalists made them "the norm". In fact, it's noted in our Gwyddon history that they were added into our Ritual Lore in 1880.

[Dextra]

Originally posted by Ari
Beltaine, Samhain, Imbolc and Lughnasadh are Celtic in origin, but Litha, Ostara and Yule are Anglo-Saxon. My source for this is academic, not neo-pagan ;) Mabon's the funny one, and seems to be the hardest to acurately trace...



As far as Mabon goes, my research suggested that Mabon was a Welsh name that was given to the holiday in the last century or so. I've also heard it called Harvest Home, like the Thomas Tryon novel. Also, the Catholic church "christianized" it back in medieval times under the name "Michaelmas" the feast of the Archangel Michael. Just a little info for ya there;)

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Mairwen
It's been, in the research I've done, noted that the Equinoxes were not celebrated until recent years when Celtic-Reconstructionalists made them "the norm". In fact, it's noted in our Gwyddon history that they were added into our Ritual Lore in 1880.

'Celtic' festivals vary a bit depending on which Celtic nation one looks at. Lughnasadh is a good example--it was celebrated widely in Ireland, but even when celebrated in Scotland it wasn't as important. I'm a bit wary about the Equinoxes too, there isn't a whole lot of historical evidence for them in some areas. I've been intending to check the sources the main CR sites use to justify these, since what academic sources I've read don't seem to support them too well. Interested in hearing what I find out?

Regards,

Maggie

[Mairwen]

I definitely am! :D

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Mairwen
I definitely am! :D

Um, well, I started out by going to IMBAS, which is considered the 'premier' site for CR. They list only the four fire festivals, Samhain, Imbolc, Beltaine, and Lughnasadh. It's always been my understanding that the celebration of the four others was rather spotty among the Celtic Nations, but I didn't want to say so until I doublechecked. I think I'd like to work at this the other way around. Can you tell me what CR groups celebrate the other four? I know the ADF does, but that's not considered a CR group.

Regards,

Maggie

[Mairwen]

The OBOD and all their off-shoots are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Mairwen
The OBOD and all their off-shoots are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Okay, that at least partially explains it. The OBOD is British, and heavily influenced by other traditions including Christianity; I think Isaac Bonewits puts them in what he calls 'meso-pagan' druidry. Gonna go see them now and I'll check back in later! :D

Regards,

Maggie

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Maggie


Okay, that at least partially explains it. The OBOD is British, and heavily influenced by other traditions including Christianity; I think Isaac Bonewits puts them in what he calls 'meso-pagan' druidry. Gonna go see them now and I'll check back in later! :D

Regards,

Maggie

I did double-check. This group is not Celtic Reconstructionist, the OBOD traces its origin back to a revivalist group started in 1717. They have chosen to celebrate all eight Days, but it is a choice that does not depend on historical/academic sources.

I'm at something of a disadvantage here, because I do tend to lean toward the CR point of view, and most of my resources are either academic, or written by pagans who use academic sources themselves. I tend not to consider the midpoints as important as the fire festivals, and in fact am somewhat dubious about their authenticity as celtic festivals--but that's MY opinion, your mileage may vary..........Whether one says the Celts or druids celebrated the soltices and equinoxes kinda depends on the definition of celt and druid. I was looking this up in a book by Dr. Hutton today and came across a bit about stone circles and megaliths in ne Scotland. While they may or may not measure anything celestial (or lunar), they date from before the celts arrived in Britain--but I am aware that some celtic/druidical groups include these as celtic and therefore consider them part of celtic/druidical practice.

I suspect that before really finding an answer to this type of question, the participants have to define what they mean by celt and druid! :D

Regards,

Maggie

[Silverwitch]

Originally posted by Litha
The Greater Sabbats are the cross quarter fire festivals
of Imbolc, Beltane, Lughnasadh and Samhain and the Lesser Sabbats are the quarter festivals of Ostara,
Summer Solstice, Mabon and Yule.
I beleve these feast days are Celtic in origin and so are more applicable for people of the northern hemisphere.

I think you're probably right about the feast days probably being more applicable for people of the northern hemisphere (me!). As for the fact that so many CR festivals coincide with these pagan festivals, my understanding is that when St. Agustus brought Christianity to Britain, he had trouble 'convertin' us natives. In order to make the takeover go more smoothly, the CR festivals were insiduously 'overlaid' onto the Pagan ones, and the takeover was completed. Just to take one festival as an example - Christmas. Christ wasn't born in December at all. Some historians say October, others say April. Either way it certainly wasn't December! And of course there's all those other lovely CR items, like Yule Logs, Christmas Trees, Lights, Eatins, Drinking and Being Merry, sounds very much like a Pagan Festival to me!!! :)

[Northstar]

I have a link that has a good account for the Sabbat
holidays by Mark Nichols.
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