Discussion About Astrology

[Pythia Crone]

I want to start a discussion thread about the subject of Astrology itself, not about how to construct or interpret a chart.

I intellectually believe in the esoteric, metaphysical, unseen, etc. world, but emotionally I don't believe in it. Yet, in spite of my emotional disbelief, I am still attracted to it. That includes Astrology.

Over the years I've gotten 5 birth charts and interpretations. They've all been computer generated including the interpretations, and they've all been done by institutions and one individual, all the names everyone would recognize and regard with respect, I assume.

My concern is that none of the interpretations accurately described me; they were so far off the mark, it is incredible, and I have been continuously disappointed. For a while this caused my fragile belief in Astrology to be almost completely destroyed. But I've come back to it again still hoping. As with all the esoteric, metaphysical, etc, practices, sciences, spiritualities, Astrology still seems to have some truth in it, feels right, and makes sense. Yet why have the interpretations of my birth charts come out so wrong all the time?

I've never had a birth chart nor interpretation done by a real live astrologer through face to face contact. I wouldn't begin to know how to pick and trust a good one.

The birth time is on my birth certificate and there's documentation that authenticates where I was born and that my parents are my biological parents. I have no reason to doubt that.

I have always wanted to study astrology: to be able to interpret my own chart, for the remote possibility of earning money doing other peoples' charts and interpretations, and to prove to myself I could do it. That's a problem. Astrology is complicated and there is a lot to learn. I'm on my 4th try. I'm homebound, so I can't take classes and have to study books. I get discouraged and defeated easily. I'm not stupid; I believe I'm intelligent. However, I have reason to believe I have learning disabilities. I have to underline and take notes and read something many times in order to remember the information, for it to become a part of me. I have numerous reputable books.

Finally I'm coming to the issue I want a discussion about. Firstly, I was raised in a traumatic family environment which dramatically shaped me and which I've struggled with all my life. None of the interpretations of my 5 birth charts even hinted at that reality. All the books use charts for successful, famous people as examples. They never use charts for regular people who have experienced and suffered all kinds of problems. None of this gets reflected or discussed in the books about astrology nor in the sample birth charts and interpretations.

Secondly, the tone of the words used to describe and define the elements, modalities, planets, signs, and houses is mostly positive, optomistic, stereotypical, similar. The words seem so pat, stock, standardized, superficial, dishonest and avoids the truth of most of our experiences. For example, saying moody or melancholy instead of depressed. It seems like the vocabulary of Astrology is closed, rigid and filled with expectations many of us don't meet. It should be open and encourage, allow our own emotional, intuitive responses to the symbols. I do realize there are basic concepts that must be learned.

I'm having a hard time clarifying what I'm trying to express because I barely understand it myself. Our society denies trauma and suffering; as a result so many astrologers' vocabulary reflects that and denies it too. I really believe there's a whole separate vocabulary that speaks about the painful challenges life presents us: that is real, honest, and truthful, that not everyone accomplishes goals and dreams, that many of us just eke out life the best we can.

So I think that's the reason why my interpretations were so wrong. I want to believe and hope that there are good, intuitive humanistic astrologers who are using their own vocabulary, ideas, thoughts, beliefs, feelings and wonderings about meanings.

I appreciate that people read this. I hope that it can lead to a thoughtful, kind discussion. I would also appreciate it if people would use "I" statements and speak from their own experience, knowledge, feelings and points of view.

Blessed Be
Pythia Crone

[Fluffmeister]

Over the years I've gotten 5 birth charts and interpretations. They've all been computer generated including the interpretations, and they've all been done by institutions and one individual, all the names everyone would recognize and regard with respect, I assume.

My concern is that none of the interpretations accurately described me; they were so far off the mark, it is incredible, and I have been continuously disappointed. For a while this caused my fragile belief in Astrology to be almost completely destroyed. But I've come back to it again still hoping. As with all the esoteric, metaphysical, etc, practices, sciences, spiritualities, Astrology still seems to have some truth in it, feels right, and makes sense. Yet why have the interpretations of my birth charts come out so wrong all the time?

Hi, Pythia - thank you for starting an excellent topic!

Human astrologers synthesise charts: they can look at repeating themes, and build on this to come up with a better model than computer generated ones. Computers just churn out "boiler plate" text. It doesn't matter that a brilliant well-known astrologer may have written the text; it won't necessarily apply to *you*.

As an example: I have Mercury in Pisces in the 7th house. Keywords for Mercury: communication, writing, talking, intellect. Keywords for Pisces: fantasy, creative, mystical, alcoholic, addicted, deceived, boundaryless. Keywords for the 7th: partnerships, intimate relationships, open enemies. So here are some *plausible* sentences to describe Mercury in Pisces in the 7th:

a. Creative writing in partnership with someone (creative, writing, partnership)
b. Engaging in cybersex (fantasy, intimate relationship, computer communication)
c. Wrongly believing people are saying nasty things about you (deceived, talking, enemies)
d. Counselling people with drug or alcohol problems (communicating, other people, addictions)

Now, a computer won't have a clue which of these - if any - are "correct". It will probably play safe - saying "you are able to communicate well with other people in an empathic way" sounds glib, but it's safer than telling a drugs advisor that she's paranoid, or a creative writer that he's got a cybersex addiction - and playing safe means the site is more likely to get repeat business and recommendations.

Now, a human astrologer would bear all of these in mind, and then look at other bits of my chart - ah, I have Venus in the 7th too, opposing Pluto, and closely conjunct Chiron. Wounds in relationships? Pluto playing power games? Well, perhaps there's more than a little truth in point c above - here's a repeating theme saying "sometimes you get the wrong end of the stick". Oh, and Mercury's retrograde, too - yup, misunderstandings might be playing a big role here. The computer won't spot that - the human astrologer does a lot of juggling and weighing up scenarios. Computers could *probably* do that with a huge amount of investment - corporations do develop "expert systems", but they're not easy to develop and require a lot of input from experts. Needless to say, most astrology companies don't have budgets of millions, and no such system has been written yet.


I've never had a birth chart nor interpretation done by a real live astrologer through face to face contact. I wouldn't begin to know how to pick and trust a good one.

Some pointers here: personal recommendation is a good starting point. Don't bother with Yellow Pages, find someone who's had a reading and got something out of it. But bear in mind that just because *they* clicked with the astrologer doesn't mean that *you* will. It could be something in your respective charts :)

Astrology groups are great ways of meeting not only others interested in astrology, but professional astrologers too. And if you're homebound, there are lots of online groups. That way, you get to talk to lots of people, can weigh up the pros and cons of various astrologers, and have a reading (I mean a proper reading with someone you feel you click with, not a quick online sketch).


I have always wanted to study astrology: to be able to interpret my own chart, for the remote possibility of earning money doing other peoples' charts and interpretations, and to prove to myself I could do it. That's a problem. Astrology is complicated and there is a lot to learn. I'm on my 4th try. I'm homebound, so I can't take classes and have to study books. I get discouraged and defeated easily. I'm not stupid; I believe I'm intelligent. However, I have reason to believe I have learning disabilities. I have to underline and take notes and read something many times in order to remember the information, for it to become a part of me. I have numerous reputable books.

OK - there is a lot to learn, but you'll be surprised how quickly you start getting things right. Don't be disheartened by your failures - concentrate on what you're getting right. It just keeps getting better! It may be worth signing up for an astrology course - most schools offer on-line correspondence ("distance learning") courses now, rather than expecting you to attend a class in person.

I'm a great fan of working things out rather than learning by rote. Pick a placement in your own chart - and write down keywords for the planet in one colour, keywords for the sign in another, and keywords for the house in a third colour. Now create sentences out of them - some of them won't apply to you. Or at least, you may find yourself thinking: "hmm, well *that* doesn't apply to me now, but when I was 11 years old that did sum me up pretty well!"


Finally I'm coming to the issue I want a discussion about. Firstly, I was raised in a traumatic family environment which dramatically shaped me and which I've struggled with all my life. None of the interpretations of my 5 birth charts even hinted at that reality. All the books use charts for successful, famous people as examples. They never use charts for regular people who have experienced and suffered all kinds of problems. None of this gets reflected or discussed in the books about astrology nor in the sample birth charts and interpretations.

Well, you're reading the wrong books! :) Or at least, you're not reading the sort of books you need to. Try Howard Sasportas, Liz Greene or Stephen Arroyo as authors. There are lots of books on family dynamics, with examples not taken from famous charts but from real people - their clients (names withheld, obviously). Look at your Moon - relationship with your Mother. Look at Saturn - father. What condition are they in? What aspects do they make to each other? What other planets are afflicting them - especially powerful ones like Uranus or Pluto. There are even specific books that go into detail about specific combinations - suppose you have a Pluto/Moon aspect, for instance: well Judy Hall has written an entire book on this topic, called "Hades Moon".


Secondly, the tone of the words used to describe and define the elements, modalities, planets, signs, and houses is mostly positive, optomistic, stereotypical, similar. The words seem so pat, stock, standardized, superficial, dishonest and avoids the truth of most of our experiences. For example, saying moody or melancholy instead of depressed. It seems like the vocabulary of Astrology is closed, rigid and filled with expectations many of us don't meet. It should be open and encourage, allow our own emotional, intuitive responses to the symbols. I do realize there are basic concepts that must be learned.

Modern astrology tends to focus on our ability to change our situation - so things aren't fated. Nothing is "hard" - it's "challenging". If your life is hard, it can be annoying and feel patronising to come across this attitude, but you can read between the lines. Things aren't fated, though - and we can come to terms with our difficult aspects eventually.


I'm having a hard time clarifying what I'm trying to express because I barely understand it myself. Our society denies trauma and suffering; as a result so many astrologers' vocabulary reflects that and denies it too. I really believe there's a whole separate vocabulary that speaks about the painful challenges life presents us: that is real, honest, and truthful, that not everyone accomplishes goals and dreams, that many of us just eke out life the best we can.

So I think that's the reason why my interpretations were so wrong. I want to believe and hope that there are good, intuitive humanistic astrologers who are using their own vocabulary, ideas, thoughts, beliefs, feelings and wonderings about meanings.

Yes, I agree. Bear in mind that astrologers will often be cautious, though, and for good reason. If an astrologer sees a difficult transit coming up in your chart, it would unwise for them to say "oh dear, I think your mother might die" or "oh no, you've got Pluto doing *what* to your Moon? Ouch - this transit is going to be really painful and last for over a year", because these aren't helpful, and in the case of "it's going to be a tough year" can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I tell you you're going to have a terrible year, simply instilling that negative belief system can often make the prophecy come true. Interestingly, medieval astrologers (who were far more fatalistic than us - "the native will never marry and will go to prison") would ward off bad aspects by creating amulets. "The stars impel, they do not compel".

I wish you all the best in your search, and hope there are lots of contributions to this thread. I think it's brilliant that you're learning astrology, and there are lots of resources out there even if you aren't able to leave the house easily. Please feel free to PM me if you would like links and pointers to helpful sites and groups.

[Kadynas]

I would also add Steven Forrest and Jeffrey Wolf Green to your list of authors, Fluff. :) Though Liz Green is my all-time favorite...

[Devi]

Have you ever gotten a chart done with vedic astrology? My Western chart puts me with leo sun and sag moon . Now while I do share a few traits of leo i'm nothing like that moon placement. Also the house placements didnt ring true for me. Years ago I was given a vedic chart interpretation as a gift. I remember reading it and thinking this is describing me almost perfectly. That vedic chart had my sun in cancer and moon in scorpio . Then I realize the traits that I felt were leo qualities could also be true for cancer.Strong sense of loyalty to friends and family,dramatic,etc. Unfortunately I somehow lost that chart between my last move. :wah2:

[Valkie]

The boon and bane of astrology.... free will.

I've never seen a computer chart come up with an accurate description. The whole cut and paste, aspects conflicting each other (I actually read somewhere that they cancel each other out... they don't)

Fluff does make a very good point. While the planet's placement "usually" is interpitated as one thing, the energy can come out in a variety of places in the person's life. How it comes out is linked to two things. The person's choices, and childhood enviroment.

A "good" astrologer doesn't like to do blind reads. It's not about fishing for information. I mean, how intellegent are you going to sound if you tell someone that they have difficulty getting into relationships when they are already married? The energy is going to change it's way of manifesting. This is expecially true with the harsh aspects. If a person has learned to balance a harsh aspect, they aren't going to have the difficulty with it as someone who hasn't learned how to balance it.

[Shatril]

Bear in mind that astrologers will often be cautious, though, and for good reason. If an astrologer sees a difficult transit coming up in your chart, it would unwise for them to say "oh dear, I think your mother might die" or "oh no, you've got Pluto doing *what* to your Moon? Ouch - this transit is going to be really painful and last for over a year", because these aren't helpful, and in the case of "it's going to be a tough year" can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I tell you you're going to have a terrible year, simply instilling that negative belief system can often make the prophecy come true. Interestingly, medieval astrologers (who were far more fatalistic than us - "the native will never marry and will go to prison") would ward off bad aspects by creating amulets. "The stars impel, they do not compel".
I'm here to bare witness to this. I'm so glad that you point this out. An aquaintence of mine had a reading done by tarot card reader, and the reader told her that she was going to have a difficult time with suicide thoughts on the weekend, and this was on a Tuesday. Well this person just worried herself into a fit. Come the weekend she drank heavily to take her mind off the PREDICTION, and ended up so worried that she actually slit her wrist. Now it is my considered opinion that the tarot reader showed complete irresponsibility in the way that she read those cards. I'm glad that you mention the self-fulfilling prophesy here Fluffmeister. I don't think this can be repeated too often.

[KEishin]

I can't add too much more to what everyone else has said - computers are good for casting charts, but not interpreting them. You need to take into account every other item in the chart as no one of them exists alone.

I prefer to cast my charts by hand for the simple fact that I can see patterns as I'm plotting each point and planet (but I'm a throwback! ;))

And Liz Greene is still my favorite astrology author . . . bar none