Brigit ,Danuand Stonehenge connections?

[lightdragon]

i`m starting a new thread here from the Hecate and Morrigan thread as it was getting Off Topic.

In another book i haveGlamoury:Magic of the Celtic Green World by Steve Blamires
states the following on Brigit pg.148:She is sometimes confused with the goddes Danu,as both have similar functions

also on pg.152 concerning Danu:although she seems to have been associated with Mor-Rioghin and Brighid.

The book is basically Irish Celtic so there is no reference to Stonhenge.

In the book The Druids by Peter Berresford Ellis(i heard good praise from him):

on pg 47. it will state that Brigit was equated with Artemis

on pg.102:the goddess Brigit('the exalted or high one')was known as Brigantia in northern Britian and Brigantu in Gaul

on pg.260 and 261 he mentions people in the 1700's has a theory that Druids worshipped a serpent there.

[Nantonos]

In the book The Druids by Peter Berresford Ellis(i heard good praise from him):

on pg 47. it will state that Brigit was equated with Artemis

on pg.102:the goddess Brigit('the exalted or high one')was known as Brigantia in northern Britian and Brigantu in Gaul

on pg.260 and 261 he mentions people in the 1700's has a theory that Druids worshipped a serpent there.

You might find this post that I made last night helpful regarding the etymology and attributes of Brigid:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1586853&postcount=7769

Brigid has serpent connections via Sirona, who was assimilated to Hygeia; both were depicted with serpents.

[Paracelsus]

Get hold of a copy of the (fantastic, and fantastically expensive) "Modern Antiquarian" by Julian Cope - there's an excellent essay in there about Bride. You can find some links online at http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/home/ I doubt that you'llhave much joy connecting her to stonehenge though.

[lightdragon]

Get hold of a copy of the (fantastic, and fantastically expensive) "Modern Antiquarian" by Julian Cope - there's an excellent essay in there about Bride. You can find some links online at http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/home/ I doubt that you'llhave much joy connecting her to stonehenge though.
well in my vision i saw stone circles. I immediately thought Stonehenge. At least here i found places called Bridestones. This makes sense. Bride came to me wearing black hair with a golden circlet head band

[Morgandria]

If Bríd came to you wearing black hair around something called Bridestones, that's ok. You may have gone to Stonehenge because that's what YOU associate with the idea of stone circles; the first thought in your mind, rather than what Bríd was directing you to.

It's called unsubstantiated personal gnosis - UPG - and everyone has a little bit (or a lot). But it's also your personal experience, which will be difficult to get anyone else to substantiate for you. Likewise, historical research might pan out with nothing.

If you want to know more, ask your black-haired Bride and see if she has anything else she wants to tell you. It's as viable a source as anything else at this point.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I'd have to agree with Morgandria that your impression definitely falls under the realm of UPG. What makes you certain it's Brighde and not some other goddess? Did she tell you her name, or does it just feel right? I'm curious because everything in that vision completely opposes what we know of Brighde. Stonehenge is outside of Brigantian territory (northern England) where we know Brigantia, an exact cognate of Brighde, was worshipped. The Irish lore we have about Brighde describes her as golden haired, not black. Have you researched the Bridestones more (outside of the reference in the Real Magic article).

The Danu connection probably comes the confusion over whether the Brian, Iuchbar and Iuchabra are Danu's children (they are called the three gods of Danu) or Birghde's children. From my research I don't know that they are connected in any other way. I think I have the book you mentioned, but it's in storage (as are most of my belongings), but if you could perhaps quote this pareticular passage from Peter Beresford-Ellis' book I would appreciate it.

The snake reference may also be related to the possible conflation of Briigantia and Minerva at Birrens in southern Scotland. They both were typically depicted with similar iconography, including a snake if I recall correctly. (will have to fact check that one to be certain)

[lightdragon]

You might find this post that I made last night helpful regarding the etymology and attributes of Brigid:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1586853&postcount=7769

Brigid has serpent connections via Sirona, who was assimilated to Hygeia; both were depicted with serpents.
i forgot to thank you for the info. sorry.

[lightdragon]

If Bríd came to you wearing black hair around something called Bridestones, that's ok. You may have gone to Stonehenge because that's what YOU associate with the idea of stone circles; the first thought in your mind, rather than what Bríd was directing you to.

It's called unsubstantiated personal gnosis - UPG - and everyone has a little bit (or a lot). But it's also your personal experience, which will be difficult to get anyone else to substantiate for you. Likewise, historical research might pan out with nothing.

If you want to know more, ask your black-haired Bride and see if she has anything else she wants to tell you. It's as viable a source as anything else at this point.

well the vision came to me two years ago during a Wicca 101 workshop class. i saw standing stones so i assumed Stonehenge. i saw Paracelsus weblinks it could have been one of those photos. when i came to her i was riding a white dragon and holding a large sword.she said it was the second time i came before her. then gave me a crystal for the dragon. The dragon part i know of since i work with astral dragons.Recently she spoke with me. I wanted to know who she was. She said you have to find that out for yourself.
That's why i thought the Morrigan would be associated with Stonehenge.As i thought that was the only stone circles that i recall. Paracelsus proved me wrong on that. i do know the teacher's tradition uses the Morrigan as their goddess.
and again thanks for the info :

[lightdragon]

I'd have to agree with Morgandria that your impression definitely falls under the realm of UPG. What makes you certain it's Brighde and not some other goddess? Did she tell you her name, or does it just feel right?
more on the line it feels right.



I'm curious because everything in that vision completely opposes what we know of Brighde. Stonehenge is outside of Brigantian territory (northern England) where we know Brigantia, an exact cognate of Brighde, was worshipped. The Irish lore we have about Brighde describes her as golden haired, not black. Have you researched the Bridestones more (outside of the reference in the Real Magic article).
read my above statement.


The Danu connection probably comes the confusion over whether the Brian, Iuchbar and Iuchabra are Danu's children (they are called the three gods of Danu) or Birghde's children. From my research I don't know that they are connected in any other way. I think I have the book you mentioned, but it's in storage (as are most of my belongings), but if you could perhaps quote this pareticular passage from Peter Beresford-Ellis' book I would appreciate it.

it's not mentioned in Peter Beresford-Ellis' book.any quotations of her are in the opening thread. However in another book Encyclopedia of CELTIC WISDOM by Caitlin and John Matthews pg.217:Nede's claims are equally modest.He is the son of poetry itself,he has the wisdom and lore that are born of knowledge,he is the child of the triple gods of poetry,glossed as 'three sons of Brighid the poetess,namely Brian,Iuchar and Uar'."definitely different spellings on the last two sons and no mention of Danu here.

on pg. 222: The Danann goddess,Brighid,is chef among those who dispense wisdom.

on pg.236:the three gods of Dana,are taken to be Brighid's three sons by Tuireann,son of Ogma:Brian,Iuchar and Iucharba,...Brighid is often fused with the ancient Celtic ancestress,Dana.
again different spellings of the three sons.


The snake reference may also be related to the possible conflation of Briigantia and Minerva at Birrens in southern Scotland. They both were typically depicted with similar iconography, including a snake if I recall correctly. (will have to fact check that one to be certain)
i don`t have info on this. so i can't answer.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

it's not mentioned in Peter Beresford-Ellis' book.any quotations of her are in the opening thread. However in another book Encyclopedia of CELTIC WISDOM by Caitlin and John Matthews pg.217:Nede's claims are equally modest.He is the son of poetry itself,he has the wisdom and lore that are born of knowledge,he is the child of the triple gods of poetry,glossed as 'three sons of Brighid the poetess,namely Brian,Iuchar and Uar'."definitely different spellings on the last two sons and no mention of Danu here.

on pg. 222: The Danann goddess,Brighid,is chef among those who dispense wisdom.

on pg.236:the three gods of Dana,are taken to be Brighid's three sons by Tuireann,son of Ogma:Brian,Iuchar and Iucharba,...Brighid is often fused with the ancient Celtic ancestress,Dana.
again different spellings of the three sons.

This last bit is what I'm curious about. Where do they get that she is often fused with Dana. From what I've read this simply isn't true. The only connection I've ever found between the two is that both are named as the mother of Brian, Iuchar and Iucharba. However, most scholars believe this has nothing to do with them being the same goddess and is instead confusion on the part of the scribes who wrote down the myths, centuries after the pagan era.


i don`t have info on this. so i can't answer.

Oh I wasn't asking a question there. I was bringing it up, because I thought you might be interested in the additional info about the snake connection, seeing as you brought it up in your initial post on this thread. I will look through my notes and see for you if there is actually shared snake iconography. It made me wonder if the snake associations were originally Celtic or if they were something that was grafted on due to the Romans. I don't recall any associations with the snake as pertains to the Irish Brigid, but they do exist for the Scottish Bride/Brighde and possibly Brigantia as well.

[lightdragon]

This last bit is what I'm curious about. Where do they get that she is often fused with Dana.
this is from Steve Blamire's Glamoury Magic of the Green World

where he got this from i don`t know. I can list his bibliography on the Celtic mythology if you wish.But since Danu here is associated with both the Morrigan and Brighid. that would make sense to me in my vision of a Morrigan/brighid combo.Do you know any physical descriptions of Dana/Danu?



Oh I wasn't asking a question there. I was bringing it up, because I thought you might be interested in the additional info about the snake connection, seeing as you brought it up in your initial post on this thread. I will look through my notes and see for you if there is actually shared snake iconography. It made me wonder if the snake associations were originally Celtic or if they were something that was grafted on due to the Romans. I don't recall any associations with the snake as pertains to the Irish Brigid, but they do exist for the Scottish Bride/Brighde and possibly Brigantia as well.

i know offhand snakes and dragons sometimes are considered the same. A good example is the Indian Nagas or snakemen. that also would make sense since Celtic culture is Indo-European in nature. also on pg.260 of Bereford Ellis' book it states Willam Stukeley made visits to Stonehenge between 1719 to 1724. in 1740 he he published Stonehenge, a temple restored to the British Druids in that publication he states that the druids worshippeda great serpent named Dracontia

[Nantonos]

If Bríd came to you wearing black hair around something called Bridestones, that's ok. You may have gone to Stonehenge because that's what YOU associate with the idea of stone circles; the first thought in your mind, rather than what Bríd was directing you to.

Very good point. There are of course lots of stone circles all over Britain. Stonehenge is one that is well known, because its on the tourist trail. High Bridestones and Low Bridestones are in Yorkshire and thus, in Brigantian territory. For pictures, see:

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=80
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?mapref=NZ847048
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/4709
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/281

[Morgandria]

a Morrigan/Brighid combo?

To what purpose would these goddesses combine? They are not generally considered connected, except by both being triplicities, and they do not share much else in common.

A goddess of war, death, sovereignty and justice really doesn't cross over with a goddess of the hearth, smithcraft, poetry and song, midwivery, and healing - at least in my mind.

Also, I hadn't read anywhere before that Brighid was associated with being Danu in any way. From what I understand she is a goddess that stands alone, pretty much.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Actually lightdragon, no there isn't a physical description of Danu and the reason there is no description is because she never actually appears in the myths.

If you look at the sources in their original form and language, the name Danu is not found. One gets the name Danu by assuming that Danu is the genitive form of the nominative Dannan. The reason that linguists do this is based on comparison to the genitive form of other n-stem nouns (nominative Erenn becomes genitive Eriu for example). However, this only rarely occurs and when it does it tends to be masculine as in the patronymic mac Dannan meic Bretha, in other words Danu son of Brath.

As for the association with the Morrighan, this is only accurate if you make the assumption that Danu and Anu are the same goddess, which I realize is a popular theory. The Book of Invasions names both Anu and the Morrighan (along with others such as Macha) as daughters of Ernmass and it is from here that we find a connection between the two.

There is no mythological or historical basis for merging the Morrighan and Brìghde so I’m not really sure what the reasoning behind doing so would be. The closest you can get to forming any kind of connection between the two is that there is a possibility that both names are in fact titles (Morrighan from Old Irish Mhór Rioghain – Great Queen and Brìghde from old Irish brìg – high or exalted) and have very vague connections, which involve a lot of unprovable assumptions being made, to a goddess whose existence can’t even be confirmed. I’d say we’re on incredibly shaky ground here, and I personally (though you might obviously differ from me here) wouldn’t want to go there.

I've not heard anything about Dracontia, so I'll have to do some research into that before I can come up with an informed response.

[lightdragon]

To what purpose would these goddesses combine? They are not generally considered connected, except by both being triplicities, and they do not share much else in common.

A goddess of war, death, sovereignty and justice really doesn't cross over with a goddess of the hearth, smithcraft, poetry and song, midwivery, and healing - at least in my mind.
.
The theory i had.I repeat HAD. was that there was little info on Danu. The concept began that Danu had two sides one would be Bride and one Morrigan. It would be on the order of the Good mother and the terrible mother aspects.

[lightdragon]

Actually lightdragon, no there isn't a physical description of Danu and the reason there is no description is because she never actually appears in the myths.
that part i heard. I was hoping you knew of something i didn`t on this subject. since you have more knowledge on this than me.


If you look at the sources in their original form and language, the name Danu is not found. One gets the name Danu by assuming that Danu is the genitive form of the nominative Dannan. The reason that linguists do this is based on comparison to the genitive form of other n-stem nouns (nominative Erenn becomes genitive Eriu for example). However, this only rarely occurs and when it does it tends to be masculine as in the patronymic mac Dannan meic Bretha, in other words Danu son of Brath. interesting



As for the association with the Morrighan, this is only accurate if you make the assumption that Danu and Anu are the same goddess, which I realize is a popular theory. The Book of Invasions names both Anu and the Morrighan (along with others such as Macha) as daughters of Ernmass and it is from here that we find a connection between the two.
in the search i found the same basically.


.


I've not heard anything about Dracontia, so I'll have to do some research into that before I can come up with an informed response.

this is what i got so far:

Stone Henge (http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/s/stonehenge.html) :Even though Inigo Jones disproved the Druids built Stonehenge Stukeley agreed with John Aubrey, that the Druids possibly used the structure as a temple or psychic center. Stukeley, also believed the Druids to be serpent worshippers, and thought both Stonehenge and Avebury were temples of serpent Draconita.

anything else led to Harry Potter links.

[Morgandria]

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/earthmysteries/EMStukeley.html

Discusses W. Stukeley a little more. Also - Dracontia refers to the temples themselves, not a goddess of any kind. The link touches on this as well.

-M.

[Seren_]

Actually lightdragon, no there isn't a physical description of Danu and the reason there is no description is because she never actually appears in the myths.

While she doesn't make an active appearance in the myths, she is described as "shapely" in one verse of the Lebor Gabala Erenn:


Cridinbel, famous Bruinde, Be Chuille, shapely Danand,
Casmael with bardism of perfection, Coirpre son of Etan,
and Etan.

Which isn't much to go on, but it's somethnig I guess :crazyman:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

While she doesn't make an active appearance in the myths, she is described as "shapely" in one verse of the Lebor Gabala Erenn:



Which isn't much to go on, but it's somethnig I guess :crazyman:

Seren, where abouts in the Lebor Gabala Erenn is that verse? I've not come across it before. I'd like to check out the rest of the context around it. I've recently been rereading my copy of the myths (Stover and Cross, Ancient Irish Tales) and so would definitely like to take a look-see.

[Seren_]

Seren, where abouts in the Lebor Gabala Erenn is that verse? I've not come across it before. I'd like to check out the rest of the context around it. I've recently been rereading my copy of the myths (Stover and Cross, Ancient Irish Tales) and so would definitely like to take a look-see.

Sure. Actually, as I was looking, I found another one:


Elloth with battle fell--
the father, great and rough, of
Manannan--and perfect, fair Donand,
at the hands of De Domnand of the Fomoraig.

They're all in verse 64 of Macalister's translation (http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/lebor4.html), which is freely available online at several places. Some other passages which intrigued me, from the same bit:


The six sons of Delbaeth s. Ogma s. Elada s. Delbaeth s. Net, were Fiachra, Ollam, Indui, Brian, Iucharba, Iuchar. Donann the daughter of the same Delbaeth was mother of the three last, Brian, Iucharba and Iuchar. These were the three gods of Danu, from whom is named the Mountain of the Three gods. And that Delbaeth had the name Tuirell Bicreo.


Ernmas had other three daughters, Badb and Macha and Morrigu, whose name was Anand. Her three sons were Glon and Gaim and Coscar.


Eriu, though it should reach a road-end,
Banba, Fotla, and Fea,
Neman of ingenious versicles,
Danann, mother of the gods.

It seems the last verse is a repetition and gloss of the second verse - not uncommon in Irish manuscripts where various sources are being compiled together, or another scribe picks up from where one left off and decides to add a flourish or two. But in context, don't take the last one as saying Danann is literally the mother of all gods - I think the other verses quite conclusively suggest that she is the mother of only three gods, which has been missed out here to make the Irish flow, perhaps - as you can see:

Henriu cid rotbla roa,
Banba, Fotla, 7 Fea,
Nemaind na forand fathach,
Donand, mathair ne nDea

It also seems there's some evidence in the passages to lend some weight to the theory that Anu and Danu were in fact considered to be the same, as you mentioned previously. At least by the time this was all written down.

EDA: And assuming the rendition of the Irish from the manuscript was done accurately by Macalister :D

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Sure. Actually, as I was looking, I found another one:


Elloth with battle fell--
the father, great and rough, of
Manannan--and perfect, fair Donand,
at the hands of De Domnand of the Fomoraig.

Now how are linguists supposed to know how to transcribe her name properly if the scribes can’t even figure out how to spell it? Though, with the above spelling it does seem to point even more towards Danu being the cognate of the Welsh mother goddess Don.


They're all in verse 64 of Macalister's translation, which is freely available online at several places.

Thanks for the link; I didn’t realize there was a translation available online. I’ve always relied on my book.


Some other passages which intrigued me, from the same bit:

[QUOTE] The six sons of Delbaeth s. Ogma s. Elada s. Delbaeth s. Net, were Fiachra, Ollam, Indui, Brian, Iucharba, Iuchar. Donann the daughter of the same Delbaeth was mother of the three last, Brian, Iucharba and Iuchar. These were the three gods of Danu, from whom is named the Mountain of the Three gods. And that Delbaeth had the name Tuirell Bicreo.


Ernmas had other three daughters, Badb and Macha and Morrigu, whose name was Anand. Her three sons were Glon and Gaim and Coscar.

I realize that Celtic genealogy, as given in the mythological cycle, isn’t particularly reliable, but these two passages seem to indicate, at least to me, that they are different goddesses. It seems that one has to make a big assumption these are the same goddesses, when these two passages give different names for the goddess in question, different fathers for the goddess, and different names for each of their three sons. I honestly can’t see how, with such glaring differences these could be said to be the same goddess.

Quote:
Eriu, though it should reach a road-end,
Banba, Fotla, and Fea,
Neman of ingenious versicles,
Danann, mother of the gods.



It seems the last verse is a repetition and gloss of the second verse - not uncommon in Irish manuscripts where various sources are being compiled together, or another scribe picks up from where one left off and decides to add a flourish or two. But in context, don't take the last one as saying Danann is literally the mother of all gods - I think the other verses quite conclusively suggest that she is the mother of only three gods, which has been missed out here to make the Irish flow, perhaps - as you can see:

Henriu cid rotbla roa,
Banba, Fotla, 7 Fea,
Nemaind na forand fathach,
Donand, mathair ne nDea

Exactly. That seems to be a common problem. People make the assumption that the mother of the gods reference means she was the Irish “mother goddess,” when in fact like you said it means only that she was the mother of those three gods. I’ve also seen it commented that the Tuatha de Dannan are in fact named for the “trì de Danann” as oppossed to Dannan herself.


It also seems there's some evidence in the passages to lend some weight to the theory that Anu and Danu were in fact considered to be the same, as you mentioned previously. At least by the time this was all written down.

I disagree. I think that it actually points more toward them being separate goddesses. See above comments.


EDA: And assuming the rendition of the Irish from the manuscript was done accurately by Macalister :D

Of course, that is given.

[Seren_]

Now how are linguists supposed to know how to transcribe her name properly if the scribes can’t even figure out how to spell it? Though, with the above spelling it does seem to point even more towards Danu being the cognate of the Welsh mother goddess Don.

That's one reason why you'll find in these sorts of texts differing renderings of the names occasionally. You can bet your bottom dollar that renderings of Danu, Donand and Danand in the English translation all come from the various grammatical renderings of the same name, which will look different in the Irish because name endings change according to...tense or other linguistic thingies (language...not my forte).


I realize that Celtic genealogy, as given in the mythological cycle, isn’t particularly reliable, but these two passages seem to indicate, at least to me, that they are different goddesses. It seems that one has to make a big assumption these are the same goddesses, when these two passages give different names for the goddess in question, different fathers for the goddess, and different names for each of their three sons. I honestly can’t see how, with such glaring differences these could be said to be the same goddess.

I would suggest another theory (although you have a point). They may be the same goddess, but the conflicting information/genealogy given in the texts originates from local variations - one thnig writing it all down did was give more definitive versions of tales, but we know a lot of tales have different versions from around the country (The Death of Conchobar in the Ulster Cycle is one example I can think of - there are four different endings to it, at various levels of Christianisation). It seems a lot of the time, the Christian scribes added their own glosses or repeated information from different sources as they amalgamated them for the precise reason that it was contradictory. But the information was kept together because clearly they felt it was it was related.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

That's one reason why you'll find in these sorts of texts differing renderings of the names occasionally. You can bet your bottom dollar that renderings of Danu, Donand and Danand in the English translation all come from the various grammatical renderings of the same name, which will look different in the Irish because name endings change according to...tense or other linguistic thingies (language...not my forte).

Linguistic thingies, eh? Is that the technical word for it? :hehehehe:


I would suggest another theory (although you have a point). They may be the same goddess, but the conflicting information/genealogy given in the texts originates from local variations - one thnig writing it all down did was give more definitive versions of tales, but we know a lot of tales have different versions from around the country (The Death of Conchobar in the Ulster Cycle is one example I can think of - there are four different endings to it, at various levels of Christianisation). It seems a lot of the time, the Christian scribes added their own glosses or repeated information from different sources as they amalgamated them for the precise reason that it was contradictory. But the information was kept together because clearly they felt it was it was related.[/QUOTE]

You bring up a good point here Seren. It's one I'll have to ponder. I've never gotten to far into the research of Danand myself, but it's on my list. :graduate:

[lightdragon]

here's another one.

House ShadowDrake (http://www.shadowdrake.com/celtic/brigit.html)

a nice bibliography here. And no D.J.Conway.