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GoddessofWisdom
September 29th, 2001, 08:52 PM
I found this on a really excellent site......It's pretty long but worth reading. When I remember the URL i'll post it

Important Note
First of all I should say this. Traditional Witchcraft is NOT Wicca, and is NOT Eclectic Witchcraft.
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Traditional Witchcraft pre-dates all of the other religions of the planet, however it is less understood and even less documented, and sadly also one of the least known about religions. Witchcraft has been around since Ug and Ogg started drawing on cave walls to document a hunt, and is a continuation of the beliefs of our ancient european ancestors (pre-dominantly British ancestors,) both their beliefs and their practices. Traditional Witchcraft as it is practiced by most Traditional Witches today is of British origin, although other european origins exist. Most Traditional Witches will add a little of their local environment and cultural background to it making it unique to them.
With regards to our European ancestors beliefs, we do know a few things about them and their view of life. The native people of Europe believed in spirits and/or gods, usually associated with the Earth, Sun, and Moon, and they saw their lives and the lives of the spirits and/or gods as having a circular pattern, following the yearly cycle of seasons. The latter part is typical of native peoples everywhere. When one lives by agriculture or hunting and gathering, knowledge of nature is vital to existence.
Most of our knowledge of European witchcraft comes from the writings of Christian conquerors and priests, with some more accurate information coming from acheological digs and family tradition Witches coming forward with details now that Christianity is not openly tying people to stakes and burning them. In fact, it was the Christians who first called the practice Witchcraft. Before Christianity began its suppression of the native European religions there was no need to give the religion a name. It was simply what all people were brought up to believe. Specialized roles sometimes existed with special names, though this was more a local preference. Unlike Wicca with its degree's of initiation Traditional Witchcraft normally just has a leader of a Coven who's only qualifications are knowledge, experience and a willingness to lead.
Christianity adopted many of the rituals and customs of the Pagan's, Druids and Witches, Yule becoming Christmas, Oester becoming Easter, and so on until all of the pagan religions festivals where incorporated into the Christian tradition, as Christianity suppressed the native religion. Some may think this strange however this is quite normal for any religion attempting to conquer another. The conquering religion will incorporate some of the beliefs, festivals or deities or the conquered religion, brandishing the rest as evil.
However, not all Witches abandoned their beliefs. Many of them simply went underground and their religion was passed from generation to generation through family lines. Since most people could neither read nor write, these oral traditions were the only means of keeping the knowledge alive. Without written records, we know very little of these ancient traditions. The records we do have are often distorted, having been written by Christian Priests of the Inquisition or taken from the Inquisitions records themselves. That isn't to say that we know nothing of Traditional Witchcraft. Some knowledge has trickled through the ages and scholars often preserved the mythologies of conquered peoples. Archaeological evidence helps a little too. The neo-pagan revival has attempted to recapture the spirit of the ancient religion, if not its actual practices. Be a little skeptical of those who profess to practice the Old Ways, unless they recognize that they are reinventing those ways rather than reviving them.

Beliefs

Traditional Witches are not monotheistic nor do they follow any revealed scripture (Torah, Gospels, Quran, Book of Mormon, etc.). Traditional Witches do not worship any entity as their superior, though they recognize the existence of other entities. They believe in the equality of all beings in the Universe, seeing them as different, separate, but never superior or inferior. This difference is often a source of confusion. A Traditional Witch may speak of the God and the Goddess, referring to the female and male aspects of Nature, but while they revere and respect Nature, they do not worship it or its representatives. Traditional Witchcraft, is polytheistic and animistic, meaning that they incorporate a number of elements and spirits into a meaningful whole. Let me make this a little clearer by example.
When a Wiccan calls upon the Goddess and the God in ritual, she/he means exactly that - "the" Goddess and God, the ones who appear so prominently in the mythologies that form their beliefs and the rituals associated with it. Their Goddess is a Triple Goddess and may be called by different names in different circumstances, but most Wiccans believe these different names and personalities are aspects of the one Goddess rather than different entities.
Traditional Witches may call on the Goddess and the God, but ONLY as focal point representatives of the creative force of the Universe, acknowledging these forces but never worshipping them or regarding them as deities, (in essence they are merely giving these forces a name,) but will usually call on other spirits as well, each being seen as a separate and equal entity. In Traditional Witchcraft there is a Spirit World or Other World where these other entities reside. Most do not see this as actually separate from this world, but rather a part of it that is usually unseen. Thus, the spirits who are contacted during ritual are already there but may be conjured or evoked to facilitate communication. This is an important point in that Traditional Witches see the interaction between this world and the Other World as constant and not wholly dependent on ritual. There are some who say that Traditional Witchcraft is not a religion at all, because no deities are worshipped. However, to say that denies the spirituality and beliefs of Traditional Witchcraft, and a religion is simply what you believe in. For many Witches today, it is the spiritual enlightenment offered by the practice of Traditional Witchcraft that draws them to it, even if the lack of deities makes it somewhat different than the majority of other religions. However many religions do not have any sort of deities at all, Buddhism being the most well known.

After-life / Reincarnation

When we die as Witches we travel to the plane of existence called the spirit world, also known as the other-world. This is where we rest before continuing our journey. When we continue our journey we may be born into a new life, reincarnation being commonly believed in by many Witches, and is also where the phrase "Once a Witch, always a Witch," comes from. It does not mean just one lifetime but many. However another alternative is that we meld into nature becoming one with it, or we become a land spirit, one reason why we always show respect for the spirits as they are the spirits of those that have passed before us.

Fate / Karma

Many people believe in Karma, including Wiccans, however this is not a part of Traditional Witchcraft, as the concept of Karma is a Hindu/Buddhist concept and not one of western europe. What Traditional Witches do believe in is fate. We all have a fate, what that is however we may not know until it happens, or perhaps we may be born with knowledge of what this is. Our fate is one of the many mysteries that unfold as we grow old.

Ritual

Traditional Witches observe the sabbats as these days correspond to solstices and equinoxes, but do not relate them to a specific mythology, such as can be seen in other pagan religions. In Traditional Witchcraft it is the seasonal changes themselves that are honoured, not the lives of any Gods or Goddesses that other religions associate with them. Traditional Witches observe Moon phases and other natural phenomena also. The full moon being of significant importance. The Esbats (full moons) being more important than the Sabbats even.
In Traditional Witchcraft, all space is sacred and all life is ceremony. When ritual or magic is performed, the Traditional Witch is likely to go to a place that has special qualities such as a stream or mountain, but practitioners also recognise that the local park or someone's garden is equally sacred.
It is often difficult for urban witches to gain any practical experience of the countryside. Perhaps the absence of daily opportunities to be in direct contact with the Nature draws so many of them to the more formal and symbolic rituals of Wicca. The separation from natural settings may also have led to the intense concern with environmental issues among Traditional Witches and other pagan based believers.

Magic

Magic is central to Traditional Witchcraft, whereas many Eclectic Witches, Wiccans or Pagans do not practice any magic at all. ALL Traditional Witches do, although not in the same ritualistic way that a Wiccan would. It could be a simple spell cast whilst cooking to improve the taste of food, to a Earth healing spell done in the sanctuary of a private garden. All religions use magic, as it may be defined as any attempt to effect the outcome of a given situation by supernatural means (though in Traditional Witchcraft these means are seen as natural). Prayer, for example, is a form of magic, however the majority of the religions of the world deny this as being magic.
When practiced, the magic of Traditional Witchcraft is very practical. Herbal healing, for example, is a traditional practice. Also, the magic of Traditional Witchcraft may include hexes and curses without a specific rule to prevent such acts, (see Ethics section,) though their use is only in the most extreme of cases.
When casting spells and performing rituals a Traditional Witch will keep everything simple and practical, ignoring the type of ritual that Wiccans would do. If a Traditional Witch doesn't have the right herbs or stones they won't worry, they'll just carry on regardless. In many cases they will never use any additional spell ingredients other than their mind and willpower. Traditional Witches follow a folk magic system rather than the High Magic system that Wicca employs. Many people believe that Witchcraft itself is a magical system however that is an incorrect belief. Witchcraft is a religion, yet it employs a magical system. The magic of a Traditional Witch is simple, practical, and powerful.
A more important difference, however, concerns the presence or absence of spirituality in magic. Some say that magic is never spiritual. Since there are often spirits or deities involved, a better way to look at it might be to consider the relationship between the Witch and the spirit in performing magic. The idea noted above in relation to defining religion is also applied to magic, that when witches work with spirits in performing magic, it is generally not considered to be spiritual unless the spirits are worshipped. Regarding spirits as a natural part of the Witch's environment and as equal beings in the Universe would technically deny any spirituality to the magic of Traditional Witchcraft. Wiccans, on the other hand, perform magic in which a Goddess or God is appealed to for aid and paid homage to during the magical act. By the previous definition, this would be seen as spiritual. However the spirituality is in seeing the elements and spirits as natural, and enlisting their aid without worshipping them does not in anyway reduce the magic of Traditional Witchcraft to something that is merely practical and without a spiritual component.

Grimoire/Book Of Shadows

Wiccans and Eclectic Witches have what they refer to as a Book of Shadows, a book that they are required to create themselves creating their notes, spells, and anything else they feel like. Traditional Witches also have something similar to this which we call a Grimoire.
A point to note however is that these BoS's and Grimoires are recent things. This causes a lot of confusion amongst many people who believe that their ancient ancestors would have had a Book of Shadows or Grimoire containing everything to do with their religion. This simply isn't true as many people several hundred years and further back were illiterate, and to have any written evidence of their beliefs come lead to their death if it was found. Today we have Grimoires for ease of reference. With our everyday lives there is a lot to remember and having our spells, reference details, and everything else written in a Grimoire is easier for us, and in these more enlightened times we aren't going to be burnt at a stake or hung for being found with such a book.

Rites of passage

In Traditional Witchcraft Covens, there are few rites of passage if any at all, as Traditional Witchcraft Covens are less hierarchical than say Wiccan Covens. In some cases, rituals are performed at different stages of a person's life, while in other cases, rites may reflect the individual's choice to dedicate herself to some aspect of the Craft. The only thing that can be said with certainty about rites of passage in Traditional Witchcraft is that they are variable, and are determined more by the specific group or individual than by a conventional structure. A solitary Traditional Witch however would create their own, or chose to ignore such rites of passage if they chose to. Freedom to do so is one of the rights of being a Witch.

Ethics

Traditional Witchcraft has neither the Wiccan Rede nor the Threefold Law, (these were included into Wicca by Gerald Gardner to ensure a defined form of moral code.) There is no morality test, only personal responsibility and honor. Also, there is no good or evil, only intent. Humans have the ability to make decisions and act on them, and they may choose and act with good or evil intentions. Traditional Witchcraft does not set out laws as to what actions and intentions are evil, but followers of this path take responsibility for their own actions. In practical terms, this means that using curses, hexes, and the like are not ruled out on principle. If provoked or threatened, the Traditional Witch may act for self-preservation or the protection of family and home. These are considered honorable acts. Yet if there are negative consequences, the Traditional Witch is willing to suffer them.
Witchcraft teaches that you should follow your heart and take responsibility for your actions. There is no good or evil. There is only the intent that one has when commiting an action. For example, a tornado, which causes a lot of destruction, is not good or evil..... It just is. Emphasis is thus placed on the intent of the action. This concept can be seen within a quote from a magical tradition that says, "The whole of the action is the sum of its consequence." Energy is not constant. In terms of returned energy, this means that the energy can have many things happen to it along the way including: deflection, absorbtion, transformation, etc.
As we do not follow a Rede, or any Law except that which is written within our own hearts, we take full responsibility for our actions. Things are brought into the perspective of survival and intent of the individual. Many Witches look at this in terms of protection of house or clan, family, and self. So, many will take action to curse or hex if they feel threatened.

The Witch's Mind

The way you perceive the world around you has a lot to do with how your life-path will travel. The Witch should always been sceptical in nature, possessing an open but critical mind. Having an open mind is truly a wonderful thing, but not if it's so open, you believe everything you hear. Gather as much information as you can, listen to everything, use the scientific methods, and then make decisions about how things are. As Witches, we should search for the connections between all things and strive for balance. This means being considerate and courteous, understanding and diplomatic. You will be silent at times, vocal at others, naturally knowing what time is best for each. There is no need to show off your talents and draw attention to yourself. Someone who strives for attention will get it, and eventually it will lead to undesirable attention from potentially dangerous persons. It is also important to realize that all paths lead to the same source, so respect all paths, even if you don't agree with them. Stand up for your beliefs, but don't belittle others for their views. Always be confident and respect your body mentally and physically, for it is your temple. Your mind and will are powerful tools, and combined with a relatively healthy body, can bring about incredible change, and really, this is all you need to "do" magic.

Attitude to Sex

To a Witch sex is sacred and special, it is not something to be shunned into a dark closet as dirty and evil, but enjoyed and revered as a blessing. Wiccan's believe that the act of sex/love making is a gift from the Goddess. Traditional Witches see it as a gift and/or blessing from nature. Many Witches use the inherent power of sex to power spells, which is one reason why Tantric Sex is widely practised by Witch couples. The magical aspects of tantric sex can be harnessed by a Witch couple working together to greatly enhance a particular spell they are casting.

The Pentagram

The Pentagram is the symbol of Witches, and many other Pagan's. It is used mainly for Protection, Healing and Magic. The Pentagram itself signifies the basic elements and spirit. From top going clockwise (deosil) they are spirit, earth, (north,) air, (east,) fire, (south) and water, (west.)

Thirteen Goals of a Witch

These are not any official instructions to being a good Witch, more suggestions, and idea's for people to follow or ignore as they see fit. As a Witch, you'll know in your heart which is right for you.

1.Know yourself.
2.Know your Craft.
3.Learn.
4.Apply knowledge with wisdom.
5.Achieve balance.
6.Keep your words in good order.
7.Keep your thoughts in good order.
8.Celebrate life.
9.Attune with the cycles of the Earth.
10.Breathe and eat correctly.
11.Excercise the body.
12.Meditate.
13.Respect nature.

Words to live by

1. It is not sufficient to say you are a "Witch" or to practice magic. You must also live as a Witch.
2. Do not look for excuses for why you cannot follow the path. Accept responsibility for your failures as well as your successes.
3. Celebrate the phases of the Moon and the changing of seasons. Do so not because it is part of a ritual calendar, but rather because these acts keep you in tune with Nature and Spirit.
4. Honour Spirit & nature, but recognise that the spirits of all entities in the Universe are equal.
5. All life is sacred; all acts are ritual. Your actions should reflect your own humanity and that of all beings.
6. Achieving balance with the Earth is essential for a magical life.
7. Responsibility toward the environment and the Earth's inhabitants should be evident in the activities of your daily life.
8. Do not take more from the Earth than you need to live. We are mere visitors here; the Earth is eternal.
9. Wealth and fame are not necessary ingredients for a magical life.
10. Know that the joy of life is a gift. Know it as a cat knows it, in his bones and blood.
11. Power is a sacred gift and must be used wisely and with humility. Pride in ones power will ultimately cause failure.
12. Power should never be used to prove your ability or in any form of competition with others.
13. Power should be used to create happiness, not sorrow.
14. Be certain of your intentions when performing any act of magic. Magic is neither good nor evil, positive nor negative. The intentions of the caster determine the path it will take.
15. Act always with honour and accept responsibility for your actions. It is honourable to protect your loved ones, but be willing to accept the consequences of your actions with honour as well.
16. Words are sacred, use them wisely.
17. There is honour in truth.
18. Your word is sacred. Others must know that they can depend on you absolutely.

Traditions of Witchcraft

There are many different traditions of Witchcraft, and peoples views and beliefs can differ greatly from Traditional Witch, to Wiccan, to Eclectic. Where a Traditional Witch acknowledges no Deities, but simply believes in the male and female spiritual and sexual polarities of nature. A Wiccan incorporates the Kabbalah and Eastern practices into their tradition of Witchcraft worshipping the male and female of nature as a God and Goddess. An Eclectic Witch however chooses a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses to represent the different area's of nature and desire to worship.
Even within these three main traditions of Witchcraft there are subheading traditions, such as Gardnerian Wicca, Alexandrian Wicca, Dianic Wicca, etc, etc. Eclectic Witchcraft differs based on the pantheon of deities used, be they Norse, Roman, Greek, or ancient Pagan.
However they all share the same core belief, and that is that nature is sacred, and as children of nature we should learn to live within nature, and care for it as much as we are humanly possible.

The Number 13

Many people believe that the number 13 is unlucky, and especially if the 13th day of the month falls on a friday. This friday the 13th is reputed to have its origins in the arrest of the Knights Templar on October 12th and their trials and tortures on the 13th, (a friday) which were said to be so awful that the surviving Knights said that the day itself (friday 13th) was evil. 13 has had notiriety as unlucky in superstitions such as 13 people sitting at dinner. The first to rise will be the first to die.
As Witches though we know that no number in itself can be unlucky, nor any particular day. If anything the number 13 is lucky as it is the number of full moons during the year, and reverred by many Witches as a very lucky number. Something to remember the next time someone looks worried that friday the 13th is coming up soon.

Craft Names

If I become a Witch do I get to make up a craftname for myself ?? Simple answer NO !! Craftnames have absolutely nothing to do with Traditional Witchcraft, and are a Wiccan invention. Now you might ask "But isn't EchoWitch a craftname?" And the answer there again would be NO.
Some of you may want to have a craftname anyway but Trafitional Witchcraft doesn't have them, and from some of the craftnames I've seen they come across as very pretentious with everyone naming themselves after Deities, and calling themselves Lord this or Lady that. Even some Wiccans, Pagans and Druids I know feel that the idea of a craftname is daft. Nature knows who you are, not by any name but by your presence within nature. Names mean nothing to nature.

Earth Walker
September 29th, 2001, 11:36 PM
Merry Meet and Welcome GoddessofWisdom :sunny::wave::wave:

Myst
September 30th, 2001, 12:46 AM
Merry Meet.

Don't you think that was a li'l better suited to Magick & Rituals then Politics tho :)

Swanspirit
September 30th, 2001, 02:40 AM
Bright Blessings......
and thank you for the post on Traditional Witchcraft ...............
Love and Light
Swannie

yemayasdaughter
September 30th, 2001, 10:51 AM
That was an interesting read.... though, I guess the African American "militant sistah" in me would like to add that our ancient African Ancestors were also practicing witchcraft! :)

But I found it very informative, and definitely glad you shared it with us!! :) :D

Earth Walker
September 30th, 2001, 11:43 AM
Witchcraft was practiced in Europe, the Near & Middle East,
Asia, Africa, Australia, Guam, Hawaii, North/South America,
etc., until the origin of patriarchy in Europe....these armies
swept throughout the world, destroying entire cities to rid
the areas of the "devil's work", etc....these missionaries
often severely abused/killed those who steadfastly refused
to accept christianity...in Hawaii they killed people who
refused to give up the Goddess Pele, In Canada and elsewhere,
native children were forcibly removed from their homes, stuck
into residential schools, told to look like whites, dress like whites,
act like whites, they were severely punished when they spoke
in their own language, they were denied medical care, they were
sexually abused...................I could give many more examples,
but I'll keep this post short.

Over and over again, I have read many posts here at MW
stating the many ongoing problems faced by Pagans, Witches,
Black people, Natives, Lesbians, Gays, the Homeless, Women,
in short, any person who is not a straight white christian male!
Despite all of these postings, and in the same breath, some of
those posters continue to insist that christianity is a valid path. ??
If it is a valid path, then why the continued hatred and
violence against blacks, natives, and other non-caucasian peoples, lesbians, gays, pagans, witches, etc.,
The largest part of mainstream society is christian, and that is
an example of their everyday behavior.
In B.C., skinheads shot and killed an elderly man, simply because
he was East Indian, and that they didn't like the "raghead" and
his newspaper, as they so bragged to the police.
I see it everyday as a transsexual woman....and not just from
xians, but from muslims....sikhs, judaism......and I don't have
room to tell of all the times I was denied service in restaurants,
theatres, book & clothing stores, and other businesses, as well
as other people with similar experiences.
You may continue to delude yourselves about xianity and other
patriarchal religions....but until all oppressed peoples come
together in total solidarity....we will continue facing the above
problems perpetrated against us by mainstream society,
including destruction of the environment.

GoddessofWisdom
September 30th, 2001, 12:28 PM
Sorry Willow I am EXTREMLY new to the whole message board thing and I had no clue what I was Clicking :/

GoddessofWisdom
September 30th, 2001, 12:38 PM
yemayasdaughter,

Yes they were and I believe still are. This year alone there have been over 4,000 witch killings in the Congo and here is SOME info on African Witchcraft for those whom are interested:

In African tribal traditions, witchcraft is part of the accepted supernatural landscape and is generally something to be feared.
Study of African tribal religions illustrates the African ancestry of modern VODOUN, SANTERIA and Candomble. There is a fairly universal belief in a supreme God, who manifests himself in light and brightness: a shining, snowcapped mountain, or the light streaming through a sacred grove of trees. But such a God is remote, accessable only to the priests or elders. God inspires great awe in his people, causing them to fear and avoid his symbols, such as thunder and lightning. The birth of twins is also a sign from God, creating reverence for the twin' divinity and their isolation from the rest of the community.
The spirits of the dead, or the "shades," however , are regarded as alive and able to communicatethe needs of humans to the divines. They are always about, participating in daily living, evident in the rustling of leaves, dust spirals in the earth, currnts in the river. Southern Africans divide the shades into two categories: the deceased relatives of any particular family and the founding of heros, male or female, who define the community, chiefdom or region.

Myst
September 30th, 2001, 12:39 PM
No prob at all, it seems to be doing well here anyway :)

GoddessofWisdom
September 30th, 2001, 12:40 PM
The problem is , mystique, is that everyone is quick to b*tch about it but noone is ready to do something about it.

Myst
September 30th, 2001, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Mystique
Despite all of these postings, and in the same breath, some of
those posters continue to insist that christianity is a valid path. ??


Because it *is* a valid path, and any path is valid, whether you disagree with its teachings or not. Just because some people may have perverted its teachings does not mean you can say it's not a "valid" path, just like someone who calls himself a Wiccan but sacrifices white cats every full moon does not prove that all Paganism is evil.

GoddessofWisdom : what is it that you propose people do to help here? :)

GoddessofWisdom
September 30th, 2001, 01:00 PM
I have noticed in chatrooms that many times (not all) when and x-tian, muslim, etc..... comes into the room the "witches", "pagans", "wiccans" feel that right away, they have to begin to defend their religion. There are nasty comments thrown around and NOTHING is accomplished.

First we have to realize that these other religions DO NOT care about "understanding" witchcraft. They are set in their beliefs that any god/religion other than theirs is evil. We need instead to make ourself present (positively) in our communities. I used to think that my town was over run by god fearing men and women but once I got out there I realized there were more ppl who believed in Nature based religions than I could have EVER imagined.

Right now we are currently donating time at the public pre-school in our town, holding Mom and Me groups and we are doing positive things within our community.

We are making ppl realize that we are not just what our religion states, we are moms, dad's, friends, neighbors and just plain people.

GoddessofWisdom
September 30th, 2001, 02:09 PM
Silly me being a first time user of message boards posted this under "Political Pagans" OOPSIE!
Heres the URL
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?threadid=8493

Swanspirit
September 30th, 2001, 03:56 PM
I am the owner of the Witches Chat......... ........ and very frequently christians and muslims come in just to say their little condemnation speeches ...... just last night a couple of them came in and in all caps as usual began telling us if we did not accept jesus as our savior we would go to HELL and GOD would send us there ........I think it is becoming more apparent to the entire world that more HARM is done by people who PURPORT to practice
peaceful loving "religions" than almost any other group...... with the possible exception people who try to stamp out religion...... looking back at cold War Russia.. but the issues that cause peole to KILL each other on this planet .. or at least the excuses they make are based on some so called spiritual calling.....or the denial of same .......still around the same issue.....spiritual choices ......
You know ......some schizophrenics kill people because they say "God told them to " and there is a fairly new psychological theory
that because people have lost their connection to the earth.... they show signs of schizoid behaviors....it would appear that might be true but tribal wars have occured in history for centuries ... when people were "still connected" to the earth .......
and then there is this........
THOS WHOM THE GODS WOULD DESTROY THEY FIRST MAKE MAD.......... Well I would offer that the first signs of madness evidence themselves in INTOLERANCE.....
Love and light
Swannie

GoddessofWisdom
September 30th, 2001, 05:25 PM
Yes they come in to spit out their hatred but why must we retaliate by doing the same. It is an asinine process. It proves nothing and even if it di prove something, they are too blind to seeit. They see their beliefs as the ONLY right choice.

Myst
September 30th, 2001, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by GoddessofWisdom
It proves nothing

Very good point. Besides that, as Pagans we are supposed to be tolerant of others and understand that everyone finds their own path and every God is one God.

Swanspirit
September 30th, 2001, 05:53 PM
That I know ........including myself ...... goes to christian or muslim rooms to harrass people.......and when they do come in my room I either red dot them or bounce them if they dont behave....... EVERYONE is welcome in my room if they show respect.......and I have booted some pagans too...........
There is no point in even talking to some of the ones that are blindly intolerant or hypocritical either ..... they wouldnt recognise themselves in a mirror.........just like Jerry Foolwell I am sure sees himself as different than the "terrorists", even though what he does fosters hatred and intolerance.......
I tried to explain to someone a LONG time ago that the "bad guys" dont see themselves as such...... he didnt see it ........ LOL
Sad ...really .......
Love and Light
Swannie

Lavender
September 30th, 2001, 05:55 PM
The link didn't seem to work. But welcome anyways! :wave:

Swanspirit
September 30th, 2001, 06:01 PM
I am sorry but I dont where this supposition comes from...........


"as Pagans we are supposed to be
tolerant of others and understand that everyone finds their own path
and every God is one God."
.......everyone does indeed find their own path , Goddesse or Gods ..... but nowhere it is written that "AS PAGANS WE ARE SUPPOSED TO..." or have to believe every GOD is one , that is erroneous........many many pagans , myself included ......do not follow the "all the GODS ARE ONE theory .........or belief system ......
Love and Light
Swannie

Myst
September 30th, 2001, 06:03 PM
Yes and that's my opinion and I shared it. That's how I feel real Pagans should think and if you disagree that's your prerogative. *shrugs*

Swanspirit
September 30th, 2001, 06:18 PM
and I share mine......... that people who think that "all pagans are supposed to" believe anything.......... has an erroneous idea of paganism ........because paganism is far more diverse than that small framework ......
......because I would not presume to tell another pagan what they are supposed to BELIEVE .......but respect their individual choices as unique and precious to them.......
My opinion shared.......
Love and light
Swanie

Myst
September 30th, 2001, 06:25 PM
That's nice dear.

Now, back to the topic, GoddessofWisdom, I agree that helping out our neighbours and fellow Pagans is an excellent way to make a difference as well. Volunteering, giving blood, or donating clothes are all ways to help other people out in a positive way. What about those who don't live here tho - like the africans, is there any way you know of that we can help them? Someone we can write to, or a cause we can become part of? Mystique shared some links in another thread here, do you have any other ideas?

Swanspirit
September 30th, 2001, 06:36 PM
was about traditional Witchcraft.........which is a large part of my path ..........
and I am very grateful to the poster for clarifying many things that are cause for concern about what some witches believe......
because there is a great deal of variety in what pagans believe and it is always helpful to elucidate clearly what some of us believe, for purposes of sharing ..... not for one upmanship or witcher than thou or even to decide who is or is not a real pagan,,,,, but expressly for purposes of promoting increased tolerance with understanding........and alleviate opppression ....
even though in many cases it doesnt help...... as in the case of some fundamentalist thinkers.....
Love and Light
Swannie

Myst
September 30th, 2001, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by GoddessofWisdom
believe these different names and personalities are aspects of the one Goddess rather than different entities.
...
In practical terms, this means that using curses, hexes, and the like are not ruled out on principle. If provoked or threatened, the Traditional Witch may act for self-preservation or the protection of family and home. These are considered honorable acts. Yet if there are negative consequences, the Traditional Witch is willing to suffer them.

Thanks again for the article on traditional Witchcraft. I especially appreciated how it explained how Witchcraft is not Wicca nor any trad of Wicca, how it is a specific path, and so on :). I also liked these two parts which I've just quoted best. I'd like to know where this article came from still :)

Lilu
September 30th, 2001, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Mystique
Despite all of these postings, and in the same breath, some of
those posters continue to insist that christianity is a valid path. ??
If it is a valid path, then why the continued hatred and
violence against blacks, natives, and other non-caucasian peoples, lesbians, gays, pagans, witches, etc.,

I didn't see it written anywhere, that for a path to be valid, one has to be all white-light and loving. I don't agree with hatred toward other people because of their lifestyle/religion/race etc, and the hatred that SOME PEOPLE of Christianity (indeed any religion) spread, BUT I also can't deny anyone the RIGHT to practice the religion that they want to. And the true religion of Christianity, is IMO quite valid.

BB
Lilu

Mairwen
September 30th, 2001, 08:25 PM
It works if you go here:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?threadid=8493

Illuminatus
September 30th, 2001, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Willow Raven


Because it *is* a valid path, and any path is valid, whether you disagree with its teachings or not. Just because some people may have perverted its teachings does not mean you can say it's not a "valid" path, just like someone who calls himself a Wiccan but sacrifices white cats every full moon does not prove that all Paganism is evil.

GoddessofWisdom : what is it that you propose people do to help here? :)

Willow Raven,

WORD!!

Hey Mystique, since you seem so apt to blaming large groups of people for the sins of a few, why not condemn Islam while you're at it?

Danustouch
September 30th, 2001, 09:09 PM
Mystique...

You simply cannot blame a religion for all of the worlds problems. You can blame PEOPLE..individual PEOPLE..but not an entire religion. Indeed, Christianity was NOT founded on Hatred. Not in its' original form. But on love. People of every religion, have been known to commit acts of hatred. There are many "Pro-Life" pagans, in fact, who have picketed, and indeed committed acts of violence against abortion clinics/doctors. (this being one example..not saying that all pro life people advocate violence). Etc. The list goes on and on and on. The problem of hatred begins with FEAR. And Misunderstandings. Fear is a human instinct. It knows no cultural or religious boundaries. Some of the Tribes in Africa SOLD other tribes' members INTO slavery. Which is just as Evil as the Whiteman who BOUGHT them. Etc, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. Hatred, Bigotry, Violence, are not just ONE religion's fault...nor one system of beliefs fault. It is a HUMAN fault.

Are you really saying, that Martin Luther King, a Christian, was hateful/bigoted? Are you saying that all Christians are Bigoted/Hateful? Or are you saying that SOME of the beliefs that Christianity expouses are Hateful? Because the two are VERY far apart. Even if you say it is only some of the BELIEFS of Christianity that are hateful and bigoted, you must stop and realize that few of the people expousing them are theologians. Therefore, they could EASILY be misinterpreting the verses/text into twisted images which reflect their OWN Fears and hatreds.

So it is NOT the religion that isn't valid. It's not the average church-going individual that is not valid in their belief. It is the misinterpretation of some verses which is not valid. And that comes from fear and ignorance.

And I'd just like to add a point here. The only way to overcome fear and hatred, is through education. One of the best ways to educate people, is by example. If a person wishes to be understood, and accepted, they must show qualities which would help them to be understood and accepted. Universal Qualities, of Truth, Fairness, Kindness, and yes...ACCEPTANCE. Intolerance in any form, is still intolerance. You cannot point your finger at others, and refuse to look in the mirror. If you want people to tolerate you, and understand you, and accept you. You must also show those qualities to OTHERS....REGARDLESS of their religion/culture/creed.

GoddessofWisdom
September 30th, 2001, 10:30 PM
Thank you Mairwen :D

Lavender
October 1st, 2001, 03:31 PM
Thanks! I found it when I cruised through the other forums. :D

GoddessofWisdom
October 1st, 2001, 07:10 PM
- Wildchild

"I know more than some and a LOT less than others."

Co-Moderator - Green Room, Books


Like that quote :)

Lavender
October 4th, 2001, 12:13 AM
Thanks! :D

Danustouch
October 4th, 2001, 01:27 AM
Would you like us to merge the threads, bring the responses in political pagan, over to this forum?

GoddessofWisdom
October 7th, 2001, 11:21 AM
Sure Danu if it isn't too much trouble:/

Kristine
October 7th, 2001, 09:38 PM
I choose to remain silent with the ignorant...

of course, if they touch me, that's another story...

Mairwen
October 10th, 2001, 12:21 PM
I think it would do everyone in this thread good to read Ronald Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon". Look it up. You'll be glad you did.;)

Da Witch
October 19th, 2001, 03:56 AM
"Most Traditional Witches will add a little of their local environment and cultural background to it making it unique to them."


Wouldn't that pollute the tradition, making it Traditional Witchcraft no longer?
I ask this not to gode anyone into some long-winded debate about Traditional vs. Eclectic vs. whatever. Just curious.

Xander67
October 19th, 2001, 04:08 AM
there is no law anywhere that says that there cannot be innovations to the craft, I think that we are all encouraged to add our own style as long as we are mindfull not to deviate form the path too much this is my opinion

Da Witch
October 19th, 2001, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by Xander67
there is no law anywhere that says that there cannot be innovations to the craft, I think that we are all encouraged to add our own style as long as we are mindfull not to deviate form the path too much this is my opinion

But, doesn't adding to, deleting from and improving upon transform one "tradition" into something completely different.

Danustouch
October 19th, 2001, 11:16 AM
Yes..adding and blending elements from other paths might make it into something entirely new, and individualized. However..using words like "Tainted" makes it sound like a negative thing, when in reality...it may be a wonderful thing:) Most of us, after all, do not use animal sacrifice anymore. Yet many of the Old Ones, did. (druids, etc). That is one example of how a very old tradition could be changed/improved by other beliefs.

Mairwen
October 19th, 2001, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Da Witch
Wouldn't that pollute the tradition, making it Traditional Witchcraft no longer? I ask this not to gode anyone into some long-winded debate about Traditional vs. Eclectic vs. whatever. Just curious.

Well, we're not Traditional Witches in my Tradition, but we are Traditionalists. However, we have strong rules about "borrowing" things, changing things and removing things, etc and so forth. In order to keep the teachings pure and exact, these things just aren't done. Period. If they are done, then it's called that the person making the changes for whatever reason, break off from their group and start a new branch or tradition of their own.

INUKSHUK
April 1st, 2004, 08:49 PM
Hey, I'm new to the forum (new to forums in general)

I like you place.

Just wanted to share me 2 cents.

I think that any "path" if followed with open eyes will take you to the same place. It's just the one's who get bogged down in what they are *not* and what other people *are* that make this less than obvous.

"Words dissolve in the presence of power"

; )

TYRRHENUS
April 2nd, 2004, 02:28 AM
Hello & welcome, INUKSHUK. (Thanks for reviving this ancient thread.)
----------
This is a very strange article. I think this may be the source (http://www.geocities.com/echo879/).

The disclaimer reads: "First of all I should say this. Traditional Witchcraft is NOT Wicca..." But the article has Wicca written all over it:

It blurs the distinction between witchcraft and religion in the first sentence "Traditional Witchcraft pre-dates all of the other religions of the planet..." This reminds me of Gerina Dunwich's History of Witchcraft where she began with the words "Witchcraft is the Old Religion."
"phases of the Moon"
"the yearly cycle of seasons"
"Esbats" and "Sabbats"
"nature is sacred"
"The Pentagram"
5 elements
reincarnation
"the male and female spiritual and sexual polarities of nature"
A seperate section dedicated to attitudes toward sex.
Personification of Christianity as a being with motives.
The article also uses the same vocabulary used by many Wiccan authors. The phrase "went underground" sticks out like a sore thumb.

What was most confusing was the line:
Traditional Witches follow a folk magic system rather than the High Magic system that Wicca employs.
But earlier it stated:
Thus, the spirits who are contacted during ritual are already there but may be conjured or evoked to facilitate communication.
The conjuration and evocation of spirits is a sure sign of High Magic.

I'm fascinated with this article. It attempts to make distinctions with Wicca. But it was obviously written by one, and shows a certain level of dissatisfaction.
I wish I knew exactly when it was written. Very interesting.

Avalon
April 2nd, 2004, 09:43 AM
A good place to learn about Traditional Witchcraft is www.shadowdrake.com

A great book about it is "Call of the HOrned Piper" by Nigel Jackson

There's my 2 cents...:smile:

mucgwyrt
April 2nd, 2004, 09:57 AM
I believe that was a very good and interesting article, especially telling people about witches whch don't adhere to the three-fold-law. I get a lot of witch-bashing when wiccans find out I think its a load of codswollop ;)
Dont get me wrong, I believe there are concequences, but...!

The information on the Pentagram does concern me though, as the element of 'Spirit' is a NewAge belief - not something Witches were concerned with at all before Gardner/Crowley etc etc.

I think some people earlier were bashing other people's ideas and religeon, which isn't good :(

Autumn Wynde
October 30th, 2004, 09:13 PM
I would like to know how the other communities are suppose to take us seriously when we are constantly bickering among ourselves. Since there is no "Book" persay then everything I read is open to interpretation. What I have found is that there is not one source that hasn't been attacked. Let's face it over the course of a few millinium can we not see that nothing is as it used to be in any faith or practice? As close as we get to the "original" practice I don't believe that any one person can definately say, "This is EXACTLY how it was!"

That's just my opinion and I'm sure that someone will want to attack me for it but it's what I believe and that's not going to change.

KaliGiri5
December 25th, 2004, 12:14 AM
From where did you find all this??

misschief
December 25th, 2004, 12:47 PM
From where did you find all this??you probably aren't going to get an answer on that, considering that the original post is three years old.

raven grimassi
December 26th, 2004, 02:39 PM
The information on the Pentagram does concern me though, as the element of 'Spirit' is a NewAge belief - not something Witches were concerned with at all before Gardner/Crowley etc etc.(

It is interesting to note that Empedocles (circa 475 bce) taught the concept of a fifth element of spirit in addition to earth, air, fire and water (which he depicted on a pentagram image).

The earliest known pentagram ring appeared in Crotona Italy around 525 bce, and reportedly belonged to a mystical sect of Pythagoreans in southern Italy. Each point of the five points of the pentagram was associated with an element (Imagini degli dei Antichi, by V. Catari, 1647). It is also interesting to note that Gerald's Gardner's "New Forest Coven" has been referred to as the Crotona Fellowship.

As far as an association of the pentagram with Witches, it appears in various woodcuts during the Renaissance period.

Best regards - Raven

KaliGiri5
December 28th, 2004, 05:54 AM
you probably aren't going to get an answer on that, considering that the original post is three years old.

is she no longer here(on the boards)?

Autumn Wynde
December 29th, 2004, 10:25 PM
From where did you find all this??
Who was your Q directed at? I'm just a little confused :huh:

KaliGiri5
January 11th, 2005, 01:47 AM
the first post

Haerfest Leah
January 18th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Wow this is an old thread, I just have to say I learned a lot and the thought of traditional witchcraft says something to me. I'm going to put my wicca studies on hold and read this for a while and see where it takes me.

CleftOfLight
September 6th, 2005, 06:08 AM
Witchcraft was practiced in Europe, the Near & Middle East,
Asia, Africa, Australia, Guam, Hawaii, North/South America,
etc., until the origin of patriarchy in Europe....these armies
swept throughout the world, destroying entire cities to rid
the areas of the "devil's work", etc....these missionaries
often severely abused/killed those who steadfastly refused
to accept christianity...in Hawaii they killed people who
refused to give up the Goddess Pele, In Canada and elsewhere,
native children were forcibly removed from their homes, stuck
into residential schools, told to look like whites, dress like whites,
act like whites, they were severely punished when they spoke
in their own language, they were denied medical care, they were
sexually abused...................I could give many more examples,
but I'll keep this post short.

Over and over again, I have read many posts here at MW
stating the many ongoing problems faced by Pagans, Witches,
Black people, Natives, Lesbians, Gays, the Homeless, Women,
in short, any person who is not a straight white christian male!
Despite all of these postings, and in the same breath, some of
those posters continue to insist that christianity is a valid path. ??
If it is a valid path, then why the continued hatred and
violence against blacks, natives, and other non-caucasian peoples, lesbians, gays, pagans, witches, etc.,
The largest part of mainstream society is christian, and that is
an example of their everyday behavior.
In B.C., skinheads shot and killed an elderly man, simply because
he was East Indian, and that they didn't like the "raghead" and
his newspaper, as they so bragged to the police.
I see it everyday as a transsexual woman....and not just from
xians, but from muslims....sikhs, judaism......and I don't have
room to tell of all the times I was denied service in restaurants,
theatres, book & clothing stores, and other businesses, as well
as other people with similar experiences.
You may continue to delude yourselves about xianity and other
patriarchal religions....but until all oppressed peoples come
together in total solidarity....we will continue facing the above
problems perpetrated against us by mainstream society,
including destruction of the environment.


I would like to say that there were white slaves as well.If you ever read history there were Greek slaves,Sicilian and southern Italian slaves,southern french slaves,and Irish slaves and they were captured and brought to AFRICA with Black Masters.I just wonder why everyone over looks this one fact when talking about injustices.
And as far as these injustices and other injustices whatever race,culture,or religion,dont you think it is time to move ahead?
Hey Christanity is valid but jst because people messed it up doesnt make it less valid.The Ancient Jews and Pagans did just as much damage as the Christains,muslems,Hindus,native tribes of both America and Africa.Violence has always been
apart of humanity.