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Shatril
February 12th, 2005, 01:53 AM
put your comments on these pages here

Shatril
February 12th, 2005, 02:08 AM
OMG, I was reading page 245 and all of a sudden I almost fainted dead away. Now on page 245 they were talking about the M in the painting, and all of a sudden a bunch of symbolism hit me about this card.

1) The interpretation that I have in many of my books say that the letter on the chalice is an upside down M--Hellooooooo

2) The Chalice----The Grail 245 and there about

3) The host with the equal length cross--HEllooooo Page 145

4) Host representative of Jesus--This is my body

5) The chalice---Representative of Magdelene Holy Grail/Sangreal

Can this possibly be coincidence. I don't think so. Pamela Coleman Smith was a Mason or something, it is late at night. But one of the secret societies. She would have full knowledge of the symbolism. It is purported that Waite didn't prescribe as closely the images for this minor arcana, and in fact, he describes this card wrong in the book. So I think this was Smith's way of putting forward the sacred feminine. There is just too much of this. The other thing is that the host is being placed inside the grail. That is just to significant to ignore. I'm excited about this. I just need to get into the symbolism of the RWS Tarot more. I thought I had that card all figured out, but this just blew my mind.

Shatril
February 12th, 2005, 08:18 PM
It is too weird now. I'm just about ready to really blow up at the Fache. I think he is the teacher, or at least in cahots with him. Too many things point that way, but I'm sure that is the purpose of the writer, to mislead. OH well. Still love this book.

Shatril
February 12th, 2005, 08:23 PM
I think we need to discuss the symbolism of this book. I am finding it wonderful. I have been just about ready to go out on the internet and look at what is going on with this. I will check back with what I might find.

RubyRose
February 13th, 2005, 08:16 AM
Your in for a surprise as to finding out who the Teacher is, even I didn't pick up on it until it was revealed.

Shatril
February 13th, 2005, 08:52 AM
Are you finished with that book already?

Lady Jade
February 13th, 2005, 09:52 AM
Although this book is fiction, it really has changed how I view the Christ and Mary Magdaline. The symbology is amazingly accurate and the theory seems completely plausible to me. Secret societies, symbolism, alternant views...this is the kind of book that society needed to get them thinking about religion again in a way that is positive. I am no holy roller, but humankind does need Deity in their lives...it gives us something to believe in.

Shatril
February 13th, 2005, 10:05 AM
Although this book is fiction, it really has changed how I view the Christ and Mary Magdaline. The symbology is amazingly accurate and the theory seems completely plausible to me. Secret societies, symbolism, alternant views...this is the kind of book that society needed to get them thinking about religion again in a way that is positive. I am no holy roller, but humankind does need Deity in their lives...it gives us something to believe in.
Boy ain't this tooooo true. Joseph Campbell said that one of the problems with our society is that dispite our perfunctory participation in religion, we are NOT connected to it. The religions of our fathers no longer are connecting us to our spirituality. He and Edgar Cayce both said that a new age (age of Aquarius) was coming around the end of the old millenium and toward the beginning of the last, and in his own way so did Crowley with his age of Horus. Society loses itself when there is no focus on the higher self, and Chrisianity and Islam are now so focused in the material world that they no longer serve the higher needs of their members. I really think that is the reason that we focus back into the older religions, and start building our own belief systems. I know that my best teachers have been those of the alternative faith types, well except for those negative lesson teachers that I have had.

Gads I hope that makes sense. It does to me, but my convoluted thinking sometimes serves me well, but confuses others.

Shatril

RubyRose
February 14th, 2005, 12:28 AM
Are you finished with that book already?

Yup I finished it on the 11th Feb. I've moved on to Angels and Demons ...

RubyRose
February 14th, 2005, 12:30 AM
Meanwhile when they were explaining the bit about the painting, how Mary Magdalene and Jesus where wearing blue and red, but in exact opposites to eachother ... why blue and red?

Shatril
February 14th, 2005, 08:53 AM
Yes that symbolism is way neat, and I like how they are forming an M. I also was very surprised at how much of the symbolism so far is used in the RWS Tarot deck. It gives this whole process a different meaning to me. I'm still in awe of that ACE of Cups symbolism. The equal armed cross, the upside down M, the chalice/grail, it just all seems to point at the union of jesus and Mary when taken in light of the symbolism and meaning.

Awesome and Awe Full (as in full of awe)

GreenLady
February 14th, 2005, 12:12 PM
I finished it yesterday. Wow! It's so fab! And it is a book that really makes you think. But about a quarter of the way through, I felt realy angry, but so very saddened reading about what the church did to all those people. 5 million. It's a lot to think of now, but in those times when the population was so much smaller, it's almost inconcievable.

I started The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail this morning.

xx

Ben Trismegistus
February 14th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Can this possibly be coincidence. I don't think so. Pamela Coleman Smith was a Mason or something, it is late at night. But one of the secret societies. She would have full knowledge of the symbolism. It is purported that Waite didn't prescribe as closely the images for this minor arcana, and in fact, he describes this card wrong in the book. So I think this was Smith's way of putting forward the sacred feminine. There is just too much of this. The other thing is that the host is being placed inside the grail. That is just to significant to ignore. I'm excited about this. I just need to get into the symbolism of the RWS Tarot more. I thought I had that card all figured out, but this just blew my mind.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Waite was the Mason (Golden Dawn too).

Shatril
February 14th, 2005, 09:15 PM
Sorry to disappoint you, but Waite was the Mason (Golden Dawn too).
Why would that disappoint me? I believe though that you will find that Ms. Smith was also a Mason and Golden Dawn too. That is how the two became aquainted. At least that is the case in the articles that I have read about her. However, you can't always believe what you read, eh.

Shatril
February 14th, 2005, 09:17 PM
I finished it yesterday. Wow! It's so fab! And it is a book that really makes you think. But about a quarter of the way through, I felt realy angry, but so very saddened reading about what the church did to all those people. 5 million. It's a lot to think of now, but in those times when the population was so much smaller, it's almost inconcievable.

I started The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail this morning.

xx
I hope you will join us for some of the other books that we are going to read.

Ben Trismegistus
February 15th, 2005, 11:49 AM
Why would that disappoint me? I believe though that you will find that Ms. Smith was also a Mason and Golden Dawn too. That is how the two became aquainted. At least that is the case in the articles that I have read about her. However, you can't always believe what you read, eh.
Since the Masons are a male-only fraternity, I doubt that Pamela Colman Smith was a member. She was indeed a member of the Golden Dawn tho.

Deranged Hermit
February 15th, 2005, 02:58 PM
I believe the women's counterpart to the Masons is the Eastern Stars. I've known some Masons in the past, and that's what their wives were, anyway.

Shatril
February 15th, 2005, 09:18 PM
Since the Masons are a male-only fraternity, I doubt that Pamela Colman Smith was a member. She was indeed a member of the Golden Dawn tho.
Ben, It is true that in the US it is a male fraternity, however, there is evidence that in Europe at one time women were admitted into the society. It is believed that Ms. Smith met Waite in the Masons and the joined the Golden Dawn. I'm on a business trip at the moment and cannot find my references, however, I have found one about women in the Freemasonry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_mason#Women_in_Freemasonry If I can't find difinitive proof when I get home, I will chalk up my mistake to old age, and bad memory, which is entirely possible. My mind ain't what it used to be.

Shatril

Ben Trismegistus
February 16th, 2005, 11:26 AM
Ben, It is true that in the US it is a male fraternity, however, there is evidence that in Europe at one time women were admitted into the society. It is believed that Ms. Smith met Waite in the Masons and the joined the Golden Dawn. I'm on a business trip at the moment and cannot find my references, however, I have found one about women in the Freemasonry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_mason#Women_in_Freemasonry If I can't find difinitive proof when I get home, I will chalk up my mistake to old age, and bad memory, which is entirely possible. My mind ain't what it used to be.
Not the official fraternity, but there are the Co-Masons, which accept women, and have never been officially recognized by the fraternity. In my experience, having met a few Co-Masons, it's not really comparable.

I don't understand why it's an issue. AE Waite was a Freemason, and I'm sure that he communicated much of the Masonic symbolism found in the RWS Tarot to Pamela Colman Smith. Being a member of the Golden Dawn, she surely recognized much of it.

Shatril
February 16th, 2005, 06:41 PM
Not the official fraternity, but there are the Co-Masons, which accept women, and have never been officially recognized by the fraternity. In my experience, having met a few Co-Masons, it's not really comparable.

I don't understand why it's an issue. AE Waite was a Freemason, and I'm sure that he communicated much of the Masonic symbolism found in the RWS Tarot to Pamela Colman Smith. Being a member of the Golden Dawn, she surely recognized much of it.
Well Ben it isn't an issue. As a matter of fact it just doesn't matter to me. In fact, I would have been just as happy had you not brought this up.
Shatril

Deranged Hermit
February 17th, 2005, 10:51 PM
Meanwhile when they were explaining the bit about the painting, how Mary Magdalene and Jesus where wearing blue and red, but in exact opposites to eachother ... why blue and red?

I just borrowed a book called Color and Meaning, by John Gage. (about art and symbolism). If I interpret it correctly, blue is symbolic of the masculine and red is symbolic of the feminine in medieval art and later.

RubyRose
February 17th, 2005, 11:28 PM
You know I've never actually noticed just how much red and blue is found in Traditional tarot decks. Interesting find.

Shatril
February 18th, 2005, 10:16 AM
Well that plays into the colors that are in the last supper painting. The individual painted in the Red would probably female (or a man in drag) so that stands to reason that it might be a representation of Magdelene. I'm gonna have to take a look at that book at the Library.

Ben Trismegistus
February 18th, 2005, 11:32 AM
You know I've never actually noticed just how much red and blue is found in Traditional tarot decks. Interesting find.
True, although it's important to remember that, in the case of the Rider-Waite deck, none of them had any say in the colors. Pamela Colman Smith drew black-and-white drawings, and then someone at the publisher's did the coloring. That's why they eventually put out the Universal Waite tarot, which are the exact same paintings with a slightly different color scheme.

Shatril
February 18th, 2005, 11:38 AM
True, although it's important to remember that, in the case of the Rider-Waite deck, none of them had any say in the colors. Pamela Colman Smith drew black-and-white drawings, and then someone at the publisher's did the coloring. That's why they eventually put out the Universal Waite tarot, which are the exact same paintings with a slightly different color scheme.
I didn't know this. Can you tell me where all this information is coming from. It sounds like information I would love to study.
Shatril