What Is Your Definition Of "Goth"?

[Morr]

I have recently stumbled upon a debate in this one Gothic Subculture Forum regarding the definition of "Goth". Who is a "Gothic" person? What is "Goth"? etc. Needless to say this topic stirrs up controversy whenever brought up inside the Gothic Subculture because of the many misconceptions and various definitions of "Goth".

I am interested in hearing the thoughts, ideas and definitions of What and Who is "Goth" from those of you out there - Those who are and arent part of the "Goth" scene.

I find it interesting to hear how others define the subculture, being that I am part of it. Its always fun to see how others precieve you to be because of a social label (for better or worse).

I think this would be an interesting read as well (but please read this AFTER you reply, if you choose to reply to this thread! Thanks!) -

Defining Goth (http://blood-dance.net/goth/origins.html)

:fpartyhat

[ApollaJade]

I think a Goth is a person who is into Metal music, likes to wear alot of black (not necessarily all black all the time) , dark red, etc..likes darker stufff like death....umm I know a couple of goths, but they've never really explained to me what it meant, so I'm just thinking of things they do/say/wear...but yeah...thats what I think...

[Jolixte]

I believe goth to be all about embracing the dark aspects of the human psyche. There are way too many kinds of goths to be much more specific then that.

[Darakash]

I am interested in hearing the thoughts, ideas and definitions of What and Who is "Goth" from those of you out there - Those who are and arent part of the "Goth" scene.


I've always thought of Goth folks as people who embrace the mysterious side of life/things/themselves, the shadow side, the side that isn't always seen by others. Almost like trying to wear your Id on the outside...to visually express one's inner nature, and yes this often comes out in wearing dark/black colors, and other deep hues.

I also, though, think that there is a danger of trying so hard to conform, to a non-conformist ideal, that sometimes a person's true inner nature is eventually squashed in the attempt. Not always mind you, but I think it does happen.

Now, i am going to read that link!
dK

[Faeawyn]

Well, I must confess....I'm think of Goth in the stereotypical way. I guess I'm influenced by the kids that call themselves "goth" at my sons school....dark clothes, back fingernails, some times black lipstick, lots of eyeliner, lots of piercings. Those black baggy pants with chains hanging off of them. Black hair or dark hair......:whatgives:
Since I'm only exposed to the teen goths...I don't really think of them as having a specific "path". More like rebelling against the norm.
Don't flame me......it's all I know :bigredblu

[memnoch]

a goth was a barbarian from germany. They conquered everything from germany to rome. Rome ended up pushing many of them to spain, where they were known as the visigoths


but on topic of your question the best bit I've found is a book by Voltaire (the musician) titled "what is goth." You've got your rivitheads that want to become more machine than man, you've got classical goths who dress in nice victorian clothing, you've got modern goth who are into marilyn manson and wear all black, you have your punk goth...self explainitory, you've got your emo goth, they are the *sigh* why is life so horrible, you have your technogoth...they are usually under the influence of xtc, and I even know a hippie goth.

[Ninjakitten]

I think (though admit not being educated on the issue much) that a Goth is someone who is of a mindset of being like a spirit of the dead that walks amongst the living. They are outside of the norm because the norm takes on a facade of trying to avoid the inevitable and focus on menial things rather than on the depth of the human mind. The Goth dives into the human mind and may see light, but is willing to accept the darkness that is there too. I see Goths as very poetic in their view of life, walking outside of the norm, and yet embracing the only thing that is truly normal for everyone. Oh, and they listen to cool music, use their bodies as canvases, and wear clothes and makeup I wish I had the guts to wear. When you understand the dark, you don't fear or reject it, but embrace it as being a piece of you. That's all just my opinion, though.

[BrigidMoon]

Not sure. Was from the 80s punk age. Goth wasn't a definition back then. Not much help! The link was interesting though!

[Interested]

Hmm the original reason gothic people started dressing in all black etc is because the belief system is based around a persons inner beauty and not the outer. so they were all the make up and clothes to cover up their outer beauty so that people will recognize them for the inner.

[Kotake]

I have always wondered what a Goth really is, and I have stumbled over various definitions.

The way I currently see it, there are two aspects which make up a Goth: one is the exterior, such as dark clothing/hair/make-up style, often edgy; and the other one is the inner mentality, such as a craving for darkness, vampires, romantic things, death, blood. Yet I will not speculate in the reasons for people becoming Goths, as I think there are many.

I do not believe that all Goths listen to metal, although I think they listen to assorted sorts of darkwave music, including black metal, death metal, doom metal and other "dark" genres that I am not very familiar with, such as techno for instance. I guess it depends on the Goth, but the common word is "dark".

But I suppose there are also rebellious teen agers who say that they are Goths, walking around thinking that they aren't allowed to smile, only be depressed all the time, because they think it is cool. Personally, I don't see them as "real" Goths, but what do I know... Maybe they are a bit similar to "Wiccan" fluffies.

*Goes to read answer key*.

[Ninjakitten]

But I suppose there are also rebellious teen agers who say that they are Goths, walking around thinking that they aren't allowed to smile, only be depressed all the time, because they think it is cool. Personally, I don't see them as "real" Goths, but what do I know... Maybe they are a bit similar to "Wiccan" fluffies.

*Goes to read answer key*.


Fluffy bunny Goths? I so have to draw a Gothic fluffy bunny now! Sure I will! As soon as I draw my ninja kitten, I'll have to add that.

[Kotake]

Hmm the original reason gothic people started dressing in all black etc is because the belief system is based around a persons inner beauty and not the outer. so they were all the make up and clothes to cover up their outer beauty so that people will recognize them for the inner.Now that is interesting. But much of the clothes and make-up they wear does look beautiful, at least from my perspective.


Fluffy bunny Goths? I so have to draw a Gothic fluffy bunny now! Sure I will! As soon as I draw my ninja kitten, I'll have to add that.Hehe!

[memnoch]

to many people here have become accustomed to the Hot Topic goth

one of my favorite goth sayings though is "the number one goal in a goth's life is to die pretty"

[Zophael]

I think Sisters of Mercy and Fields of the Nephilim.
All black, emotional, affinity for death imagery, a feeling of being 'dead' to the 'normal' world. Originally, the 'invisible' people.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

a goth is a member of a germanic tribe.


labels fecking bother me. :p labels are for soup.

[boerbabe]

I never much through about it... if people want to call themselves gothic for dressing all in black, fine..lol. I'll just use my description of gothic architecture, which I adore! Beautiful, and darkly romantic. :)

[flar7]

A member of a Germanic people who invaded the Roman Empire in the early centuries of the Christian era.



what all these kids in black are, I have no idea. :hailmol:

The site was hilarious though. :fpompoms

[barlitone]

I'm a musician and I've played metal for years.

To me, "goth" is simply a term used to describe people who wear a lot of black, usually have tattoos or facial/body piercings, listen to hardcore metal of some kind, wear a little too much dark eye makeup (especially but not limited to the girls of the group), etc. Basically, I see "goth" as nothing more than a clothing and jewelry style.

Since I'm not goth, I just use the word to describe a look that's popular these days. There may be more to it for the goths themselves, but that's for them to discuss. (I wear tie-dye and I have long hair; despite the fact I've played really hardcore metal, folks sometimes call me a hippie. Oh well.)

[Cinnamon Girl]

I've never really thought much about it, I guess the things that first come to mind are black and drastic looks (haircuts, makeup, piercings, etc.)

But I did see this cute little book at B&N the other day: What is Goth? (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1578633222/qid=1108246754/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1871599-3042354?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) so it seems like others are trying to figure it out too. :bigredgri

[Aidron]

A member of a Germanic people who invaded the Roman Empire in the early centuries of the Christian era.



what all these kids in black are, I have no idea. :hailmol:

The site was hilarious though. :fpompoms


My thoughts precisely. If we are speaking of goths, that is their true definition. However, if you want to define the pop-culture idea of goth (and it is pop-culture, no matter how much they may want to be viewed as different and outcasts) I would define it as someone who unintentionally or most often intentionally stands out or attempts to stand out from the rest of society through a variety of ways (most often including fashion, musical tastes, and attitude) through darker imagery and personnas.

[Khepri]

I have to agree with Viviene in that labels only serve to confuse matters. I would definitely consider it more a way of thinking than a style of dress, however... My 'definition' of a Goth, if 'definition' is the right word, would lean toward an introspective person, probably also a poet, who has a deep-seated interest in death. At least that'd be the abridged version...

By the way... the wannabe Gothlings - the surly teenagers who carry skateboards they don't know how to ride, and wear dark clothing, heavy make-up and stripy tights to fit in with their equally surly friends..? The term is "doomcookie". Check the new dictionary, folks... apparently it goes in this year..!

[boerbabe]

Doomcookie? Sounds like a skater chick to me that you've described! lol

[SilentDreams]

I believe goth to be all about embracing the dark aspects of the human psyche. There are way too many kinds of goths to be much more specific then that.

I agree. I also see romance being part of the gothic lifestyle. Yes of course clothing and music come into play but I hardly find those being the only grounds for saying someone is a true "goth".

[morrigan]

I am goth.. but instead of trying to give a generalisation/definition of goth for everyone i think i will tell you about me to give you one goths perspective on things.. likes and dislikes etc
My intrests include history, science, art, poetry, witchcraft and all that it encompasses..I like things that are unusual and different to the run of the mill things in society.. I am on the dark side and enjoy the more mysterious side of things but i am not dreary and depressed..
I am somewhat of a loner, i listen to a wide variety of music.. my fav's include manson, sisters of mercy, switchblade symphony, smashing pumpkins, the cure and anything that has the cello in the background.. but there is not much i wont listen to if someone has it on..
I wear mostly black but i also love deep purples red and blues ,velvet, lace and fishnet are my fabrics of choice..however i do wear jeans from time to time.. i have black hair and at the moment the front is purple.. my skin is very pale because i am half english and inherited my mothers skin color..
in some aspects i fall into a stereo-typical catagory as i love old castles, cemeteries, vampires, winter, night time, i love to light my home by candles and as a child i always wanted to be morticia adams etc.. but there is so much more to me then that aswell.. I am a mother, a wife, a daughter.. i do all the things any other mother wife and daughter would do.. I have the same feelings as anyone else.. happiness sadness love anger frustration hurt bliss melencholy.. i laugh i cry just like everyone else..
I am not considered normal and i guess being the only 'goth' in my town i am the odd one out but to me nothing i do feels weird its just me.. I have very definate likes and dislikes and i dont like ppl trying to pressure me into doing what everyone else does.. i have a strong belief in individualism..I am not a follower...but then i dont want others to follow/copy me either.. i want my friends to be their own person... i feel sorry for ppl who every year go out and buy the latest fashions not because they like them but because all their friends have them.. if you want to wear something wear it because you like it not because everyone else has dictated to you that you must wear it to be 'cool' or 'in' if you want to do something do it because you like it what others think is not important if you are true to yourself (that being said i dont not promote ppl breaking the law) if i like something i will do it whether it is considered gothy or not..
there is so much more i could tell you but i think you get the picture of what makes me, me.. I am an individual, i dont follow the crowd there is only one me and i love it that way :)

[ravynbynorthwynd]

and I even know a hippie goth.
i AM a hippie goth. hehe, yes.

anyway, goth is about exposing your darker side. i liked what someone said about exposing your Id, but in a mature way. yes, its largesly a fashion choice, so matter what they say, but a lot of goths (true ones anyway, i don't consider sp00ky kids in this category) are very intelligent people, who have found that they simply do not fit in with society.

[chrestomancie]

When I think of the term goth, I think of someone who goes against the mainstream of expectations. I think most who consider themselves goth are simply making a statement that they refuse to conform. As do I and I consider myself goth. True my wardrobe is mostly black, but I will wear reds, oranges, purples, blues, and emerald. My hair is not dyed black but is a reddish brown with darker lowlights (but will in a couple of months have blue black color in it!) I listen to all kinds of music but march to the beat of my very own drummer and I think many goths do that. I wear lots of jewelry when I "dress up" but the clothing I normally wear is jeans and t/sweatshirts.

[fireswimmer]

I think that the goth style is very individulaistic. I know that it can constain medeival styles, futuristic styles, and just abotu everything in between. I think that ya lot of people percieve it as all black and dress that way to be part of teh scene. I think that it is full of self expression rather than following the leader. I also think that like most things the people who announce at the top of their lungs they are goth are the least goth people.

Just my 2 cents
Fireswimmer

[RubyRose]

To me a Goth is someone who dresses in black and has dark make-up (if female) and lots of peircings. But then there is more than one style of Goth.

[Bethra]

You know what I think? I think I dislike labels and so dispite in the past being labeled as a "GOTH" I hate to be labeled at all. I'd be glad if no one called me a goth not because I don't like the subculture but because I don't see how you can label anything that has so many facets. There really is too much to the subculture to give it just one word to sum it up. When you do that you leave it open to miinterpritation and that is why people have debates as to what is a goth.

We're all just a little alternative is the best you can hope to get to sticking a label on goths :)

[Morr]

Well I figure I'd comment..
Its interesting to see how many misconceptions people have because of the popculture definition of what is goth, and the teens who walk around in black trying to rebel and be cool. Its sad, sometimes, because the Goth subculture is different than that.

First off, to all you wise guys out there - I'm a History major, I know who the Goths were and their history.

Second, being part of the Gothic Subculture and defining myself as Gothic I find that even though there are many like me, we tend to think outside of the box. _inabox_
Creativity has so much to do with it, creativity in the form of self expression and putting ourselves out there on all levels. It mostly comes out in creating art & music as well as writing and composing. Its trying to convey feelings and ideas through our own means of expression.

Personally, I dont always walk around wearing black. I have many colored clothes, and I'm more of a new agey/hippy kind of person judging by my daily fashion. In fact last week I got three 70's style pairs of pants. True, 2 out of the them were black, but this was not a premeditated choice. They were really cool pants!! Yes, I do have my "Goth" clothings and accessories which I wear when I go out. As for make up - I dont do the white skin make up thing.. I do have black lipstick, but I rarely wear it, and again - Its usually when I go out and often I blend it with a blood red lipstic I have so it turns into a nice shade of very dark red. Yes I dye my hair black often and I do have a mad infatuation with Vampires, macabare and anything dark and mysterious. Its part of who I am, not something I'm trying to be or doing on purpose so that I may fit in. The music I listen to would be, for the most part, considered "Goth" music - Black Metal, Gothic Metal, Darkwave, Industrial, Rock, Dark 80's. However, I'm a HUGE Madonna fan and I adore Tori Amos. I also enjoy Irish Folk and some Classical Music. So I'm not locked on what would seem gothic music stigmatized music. Not at all. Music is a BIG thing for me. You will always find a discman in my bag whenever I'm out of the house.
Writing is a huge part of my life. Yes, I write about dark things. It helps me express my ideas and embrace who I am. I'm a dark person, but again, its who I am not something I'm trying to be so that I may be considered cool or just to freak people out. I love art. I've studied art. I draw and sketch portraits and fantasy art.
I'm not always depressed. I dont walk around with a gloomy face. I dont attempt at suicide or look for death to find me. I can be quite cheerful and excited and perky even. I'm flaky and a goof. I'm a hoot! I do, however, embrace death as part of life. I find it interesting and poetic on some levels. I'm not scared of it and I accept it. Maybe thats why I have such an easy time exploring it, talking about it, reading about it, writing about it, etc - Which I realize is part of what ties me to the Gothic Subculture. Yup, I have 3 tattoos and 2 piercings, but this is not BECAUSE I'm part of the Goth scene. I didnt do it FOR the Goth scene. I did it for me because I chose to do it regardless of any labels or any stigmas tied to tattoos and piercings, and wanna know something - I am planning on getting many more.

I find that the Gothic Subculture is filled with creative artistic people who arent affraid to stand out in the crowd and be themselves. And they dont do it to rebel or to make a statement. They can be the craziest looking person or have the most "next door neighbore" look.

They just ARE who they ARE.

[ravynbynorthwynd]

"next door neigh-BORE" look.

hehe, enjoying your play on words.


edit: just relised you might be british, and thus that would be excusable....

[Morr]

hehe, enjoying your play on words.


edit: just relised you might be british, and thus that would be excusable....


LMAO
actually I'm Israeli... and technically I'd be considered American English speaking since I lived in the US for 7 years.. so technically its a mispelling.. However, out here the English is European influenced, ie - British. So I'm exposed to that, so technicallllyyyyy - I wrote British English..

You pick!

:alol:

[Psyche Ague]

That was actually really interesting to read. I clicked on it expecting...well, I don't know what, but I enjoyed that. :)

[Zophael]

There's an excellent overview (and definition) here of the early ('80's) goth scene:

http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm

After Manson shows up on the scene the 'definition' of goth goes in all sorts of directions.

[Iris]

hehe, enjoying your play on words.


edit: just relised you might be british, and thus that would be excusable....

I'm British, and I don't understand what you mean...

Am I being dense?

Interesting reading, anyway.

[Ameniatha]

Well My definition fits in with the "old-school" goth..

I feel that a goth is a person who ascribes to listening to the post punk/early goth music on the late 70's early 80´s, bands like Bauhaus, Fields of the Nephilim, Joy Division etc.. and where the dress code is black jeans, t-shirt and Dr. Marten shoes/boots.....being goth back then was a lifestyle, and not the fashion fad it has become today... :geez:

I dont like where the image of goth has gone through the years, MM in MHO has ruined it all.....

[Morrighan61]

You "goth" kids (under 25) are so going to hate my answer to this one...

Sorry, but sometims I don't think "gothic" is a correct term sometimes for what most "goth" folks now are doing...Not in the sense that someone coming out of the late 70's early 80's "Gothic" scene and being of an age to have been a person who was into things "Gothic" BEFORE the term was popular would think of it...

Being "Gothic" then wasn't necessarily about the clothes you wore. It was more about how your mind works. The earliest "Goths" I knew of were more likely to listen to Beethoven or Hildegarde Von Bingen than someone like Marilyn Manson. They were far more likely to be found in a library studying Byron and Polidori than out doing blood rituals in a freezing cold cemetery.

We were definitely into things like "vampires" and "werewolves" but it was more of a serious study thing than role-play. (There was no VTM type stuff back then...I vaguely remember D&D but I never played it in school myself. The gamers were another bunch of kids entirely...)

The "gothic" set?

We used to get together to explore our old cathedrals, and graveyards. We we spent a lot of time viewing classic horror movies, and reading 19th century poets etc. We took those old "Gothic" novels and movies and tore them apart for their deepest meanings.

It was far more about study than play...

We used to dress up sometimes and have fun with the lace, black et all, but that was mostly for nightlife activities not for hanging out at the mall. It was pretty suble compared to what the folks wear now and never did I dream that a place like "Hot Topic" would even exist....

The first "Goths" wanted more I think just to understand and embrace a older periods in time. They wanted to understand the realities behind the monster myths, to figure out the process of death and "get" the real horror of being so close to death, to understand the brutality of the experience of life as folks lived it several hundred years ago. We wanted to understand the effects of the Plague, and get into the mind of someone striken with lycanthropy not play Lestat, the Vampire Rock Star...Most of us didn't parade the clothes as much or make it into such an obviously visible "alternative" lifestyle. If we actually drank blood from a willing partner? Practiced ceremonial magick?

Our boss or the other kids at school surely had no clue...

The "punks" they were all about piercings, colored hair, tattoos, and hard music. Then you had your romantics, the folks who listened to Adam Ant and Duran Duran, and then you had us "Gothics."

Somewhere along the line the groups all merged a bit and a whole new scene emerged and it's not one this "gothic" person is always too comfortable in. It's a little too over the top for me, and most of the music?

I don't like it much at all...

DCD is about my only exception in so far as later "Gothic" music is concerned. I pretty much avoided 'Gothic" or "Industrial" music until I heard them. They were the first band to take the kind of classical themes and topics I would consider "Gothic" and render them musically...

I'm trying to explain it, and no, I'm not meaning to sound snotty or superior, but I don't know if I can make someone who came later "get it" really. It was just another world from the one most folks would consider "Gothic" now.

My 2 cents...

Morrighan

[Morr]

You "goth" kids (under 25) are so going to hate my answer to this one...

Sorry, but sometims I don't think "gothic" is a correct term sometimes for what most "goth" folks now are doing...Not in the sense that someone coming out of the late 70's early 80's "Gothic" scene and being of an age to have been a person who was into things "Gothic" BEFORE the term was popular would think of it...

Being "Gothic" then wasn't necessarily about the clothes you wore. It was more about how your mind works. The earliest "Goths" I knew of were more likely to listen to Beethoven or Hildegarde Von Bingen than someone like Marilyn Manson. They were far more likely to be found in a library studying Byron and Polidori than out doing blood rituals in a freezing cold cemetery.

We were definitely into things like "vampires" and "werewolves" but it was more of a serious study thing than role-play. (There was no VTM type stuff back then...I vaguely remember D&D but I never played it in school myself. The gamers were another bunch of kids entirely...)

The "gothic" set?

We used to get together to explore our old cathedrals, and graveyards. We we spent a lot of time viewing classic horror movies, and reading 19th century poets etc. We took those old "Gothic" novels and movies and tore them apart for their deepest meanings.

It was far more about study than play...

We used to dress up sometimes and have fun with the lace, black et all, but that was mostly for nightlife activities not for hanging out at the mall. It was pretty suble compared to what the folks wear now and never did I dream that a place like "Hot Topic" would even exist....

The first "Goths" wanted more I think just to understand and embrace a older periods in time. They wanted to understand the realities behind the monster myths, to figure out the process of death and "get" the real horror of being so close to death, to understand the brutality of the experience of life as folks lived it several hundred years ago. We wanted to understand the effects of the Plague, and get into the mind of someone striken with lycanthropy not play Lestat, the Vampire Rock Star...Most of us didn't parade the clothes as much or make it into such an obviously visible "alternative" lifestyle. If we actually drank blood from a willing partner? Practiced ceremonial magick?

Our boss or the other kids at school surely had no clue...

The "punks" they were all about piercings, colored hair, tattoos, and hard music. Then you had your romantics, the folks who listened to Adam Ant and Duran Duran, and then you had us "Gothics."

Somewhere along the line the groups all merged a bit and a whole new scene emerged and it's not one this "gothic" person is always too comfortable in. It's a little too over the top for me, and most of the music?

I don't like it much at all...

DCD is about my only exception in so far as later "Gothic" music is concerned. I pretty much avoided 'Gothic" or "Industrial" music until I heard them. They were the first band to take the kind of classical themes and topics I would consider "Gothic" and render them musically...

I'm trying to explain it, and no, I'm not meaning to sound snotty or superior, but I don't know if I can make someone who came later "get it" really. It was just another world from the one most folks would consider "Gothic" now.

My 2 cents...

Morrighan

well just because im 22 doesnt make me less "goth".. you pretty much described my intrests and life style. The newly emerged scene may have contributed to myself and my life, and i may not be considered "old school" goth, but i am goth in my personality and lifestyle, not in my fashion sense or musical taste.

i dont think that us "younglings" should be made fun of or not taken seriously just because the gothic subculture has evolved. Sure there are always those who do it for attention/to rebel etc.. but some of us arent like that. Some of us are all that you described.

[Zophael]

well just because im 22 doesnt make me less "goth".. you pretty much described my intrests and life style. The newly emerged scene may have contributed to myself and my life, and i may not be considered "old school" goth, but i am goth in my personality and lifestyle, not in my fashion sense or musical taste.

i dont think that us "younglings" should be made fun of or not taken seriously just because the gothic subculture has evolved. Sure there are always those who do it for attention/to rebel etc.. but some of us arent like that. Some of us are all that you described.

absolutely. You're just part of the post-manson generation, instead of the old school.
I seem to remember arguments like this coming up about the punk sub-culture when Green Day started getting popular with the mainstream.
Some of us who've been around from the beginning have a little trouble getting used to the evolutionary changes of what we started (?). Goths in the '80's were the last people on earth to want or expect their subculture to get popular. What's frutstrating, and I've seen it in every genre/sub-culture, is the lack of knowledge a lot of the younger generations have about their own history. A lot of 'goths' today have no clue who the Sisters of Mercy are, much less Bauhaus. They think they know 'goth' but there is more history than most of them know.
(My lord, this is reminding me of those 'when I was a youngin' conversations!)

I may have just been an anomaly but I was an old school goth and played D&D like a fiend. Hope this post made some sense.

[MoonDragn]

Hmmm, I took some of those are you goth tests and I'm not goth, yet Morrighan61, the stuff you describe I used to do! LOL I use to dress up all in black not because it was fashionable but because its easier to go unnoticed in the dark LOL. I used to love exploring old places and reading gothic novels about old mansions and stuff. Classical music was a passtime and I love old style architecture. I guess I am gothic in a way just not the same as kids today.

[flar7]

I am so more Goth than you all! (said in Valley Girl voice) :fishsmack

[Morrighan61]

well just because im 22 doesnt make me less "goth".. you pretty much described my intrests and life style. The newly emerged scene may have contributed to myself and my life, and i may not be considered "old school" goth, but i am goth in my personality and lifestyle, not in my fashion sense or musical taste.

i dont think that us "younglings" should be made fun of or not taken seriously just because the gothic subculture has evolved. Sure there are always those who do it for attention/to rebel etc.. but some of us arent like that. Some of us are all that you described.


Sweetie, if you thought I was making fun of you then you weren't really reading my post...I did made a point of saying I wasn't trying to go there, to sound superior etc and I am not dismissing the whole thing so let's just can the defensiveness routine, okay? I'm just trying to explain from a very old Goth's point of view how different things seem to me sometimes.... I'm talking older than most of what's cosidered "old school" even. I was pretty "gothic" even as a kid back in the early 70's. Back then? Bauhaus wasn't a term used to name a band.. It was term used to describe a certain style of building things..

It's a difficult thing to put into words.

I'm not saying some of the younger goths are not representative of the generations before them, of course there are some. There were in my day. There will be some now. It's a given. What I am saying that most of what is considered "goth" today bears little resemblence to what "I" think of as "gothic."

IMHO, it's not evolving it's DEVOLVING in a lot of ways. It's often far more about the "look" and the "music" than about the study of the myths and archtypes that inspired it. You may be different. I surely hope so....I'd really like to think some of you kids go beyond posing and into thinking and enduring....But in my experience kids like you are few and few between....

You just might have studied Frankenstein in depth, but how many of the kids you hang in the clubs with would "get" why Mary Shelly called the novel her "modern prometheus?" How many of them studied the life of Stoker to understand what the subtext in Dracula was about?

When it began there was just a lot more to it.

I sometimes feel like I am living in an era of "commercial goth" if that makes sense and I am not sure I like it.

But then again I feel that's true of almost everything in our culture today. Everything is so disposable, even people. So many many younger folks don't value anything, not life, let alone death....Even love is more of a transitory phase..... Modern goths? They're more into f-ing death than experiencing the terrible mystery of walking with it....

Folks who are truly "gothic" as I know the term is pretty rare today. A handful of the kids I've met in the scene "get" it, but not many....For every kid checking out Beethoven and Shelly there are 50 listening to the likes of Marilyn Manson and reading Anne Rice. A vast majority sits there practically dismissing the very music and literature that spawned the culture. Bauhaus etc, those bands bands became a big part of the "Gothic" music scene when I was young but that music wasn't what "Gothic" was all about. Not originally. I liked it, but that music wasn't what was playing when I was studying and admiring Bela Lugosi was only secondary to understanding the historical basis for the character his horror king was remotely based on...

In my day "Goths" didn't usually run around in black. Now and again, at night mostly, for fun, or not to be seen by kids less friendly to our viewpoint while we were out doing things our parents wouldn't particularly have approved if.

(Ok, I fibbed a bit..We actually DID read Shelly and Byron in the graveyard now and again, usually with a forbidden bottle of some freaky wine we stole and doctored up with food coloring so we could pretend it was absinthe...LOL)

There were no "goth" clubs in the US back then. No large gatherings really, just small groups of like-minded souls who connected and who felt a certain kinship....Some of us had small ways of expressing that identification, but most of us looked like anyone else most of the time.

We just THOUGHT darker if that makes sense.

Trying to explain this to someone who's nearly half my age isn't all that easy. It's rather like explaining life before VCR's or CD's...It was just so very different that it's weird sometimes to look at what we spawned and see what's become of it...I often wonder what the authors of the literature and the music that started it would think of it all...

Would they applaud?

Or would they just blink a bit and politely avoid expressing the thought that we are all nuts?

Morrighan

[MoonDragn]

We are the same age Morrighan, I see where you are coming from. I didn't conside it gothic though to do all those things. Of course I had always loved "gothic" novels but I for one didn't care for Frankenstein because the story was too worn out. I used to love those radio dramas like mystery theater and Jack Flanders and his adventures. I don't think I labeled myself as goth but I remember a bunch of us loved to go to cemetaries and other haunted places at night.

Music wise though I think 80s was full of bubble gum pop and glamour rock. Where was the gothic? I never actually heard baus haus. My favorite band was journey and duran duran back then.

[FlyingBear]

I hear "Goth" and think of Rome getting sacked.

[Ameniatha]

Music wise though I think 80s was full of bubble gum pop and glamour rock. Where was the gothic? I never actually heard baus haus. My favorite band was journey and duran duran back then.

Gothic music of the 80's would be Sisters of Mercy, The Cure (more gothic-punk actually), The Stranglers, Siouxie Sioux, Joy Division, Spear of Destiny, Fields of the Nephilim, The Cult and the Mission, to name the most prominent bands in the goth genre at that time.. _twohorns_

A lot of Goth bands started as Underground Bands....here I can mention Clan of Xymox, who had a huge hit with their song "Louise"...

Its true that the major focus in the eigthies was the pop music, and development of electronic music ( Depeche Mode, Yazoo etc)...so little focus was payed to the Goth bands..

[Morrighan61]

We are the same age Morrighan, I see where you are coming from. I didn't conside it gothic though to do all those things. Of course I had always loved "gothic" novels but I for one didn't care for Frankenstein because the story was too worn out. I used to love those radio dramas like mystery theater and Jack Flanders and his adventures. I don't think I labeled myself as goth but I remember a bunch of us loved to go to cemetaries and other haunted places at night.

Music wise though I think 80s was full of bubble gum pop and glamour rock. Where was the gothic? I never actually heard baus haus. My favorite band was journey and duran duran back then.


Well, I have to admit I love Frankenstein. It took me a long time to get into Mary Shelly's masterpiece, actually. As a kid I was far more into the paranormal drama that was Dracula than the drama of questioning one's inner humanity that was Frankenstein...And admittely I wasn't as much into Shelly and Byron as I was into Stoker and Le Fanu back then...The music yeah, the serious mythic themes, yeah, but the poetry was something I grew into and even then I didn't like ALL of it, or so I thought...

(It took me years to get into Byron....I'd read Polidori, but basically ignored Byron...Now? I simply can't get away from friggin Byron....But I digress....)

As for Duran, Duran, Adam Ant etc anyone who has ever really listened to them knows that behind all the makeup and glam rock trappings they were not really as "bubble gum" as they appeared. I personally find "Duran Duran" pretty "dark" sometimes and their surprising longevity supports me on that one, I think. Even their most "bright" songs often has a very serious subtext....They were actually a pretty kinky band for teeny bopper pop...If my Mom had actually listened to what they were actually singing? She probably would have forbidden me Duran Duran, Bowie, and Adam Ant...

Songs glorifying S&M? Making outright fun of someone who didn't drink or smoke? Lyrics openly touching on the dark side of the psyche? Not exactly something she would approved of for her teenager but then most parents back then only saw the "cute" Beatlesque boys and their funny makeup....

Harmless, hah....

Duran Duran, Adam Ant, Bowie?

They were all about SEX and dark sex sometimes at that.

I wasn't sitting there innocently pressing kisses to their photographs I was sitting there salivating and wondering how many lucky b-s were actually getting it on with Simon Le Bon, and Nick Rhodes in the back of that limo. I was wondering if keeping the virginity intact was actually worth it when compared to the the experience of frolicking with a guy named "Ant" and the interesting contents of his valise...

Don't get me wrong. I was still innocent in a lot of ways, but the sensuality of the whole glam rock scene was easily apparent to me. It made me squirm in my shoes sometimes, but it wasn't something I didn't understand...

I got the "kinky sex" in Dracula too....

You know there was a reason my Mom made me wait to read most of the "classics" until I was almost 11...

:)

Morrighan

[MoonDragn]

Hah hah, while you were reading dracula I was reading John Norman and the whole gor series of books. Talk about bdsm ;)

I liked adam ant, ramones, bowie and iggy pop. The punk scene had just arrived and I found I loved that type of music. Its why I seem to like the current music more cause its based on that stuff. Bad Religion is still one of my favorite bands.

I didn't really get poetry til my heart was broken for the first time. Then it became crystal clear :(

[flar7]

well yeah, Gor was written for guys. Porn with swords.

[MoonDragn]

Was it? All the fans I've met were women.

[flar7]

Was it? All the fans I've met were women.
you're kiddin?
I have read almost the entire series, and except for book one, its all about macho men crap and abusing/owning/raping/humiliating women. oh, and some swords and tarns and priest kings.

[MoonDragn]

...and theres a big following of women who love that. They do the whole submission thing wanting a master etc... Its a BIG fanbase trust me I've met some of them online.

[Zophael]

Was it? All the fans I've met were women.

really? It's actually considered quite misogynous.

[flar7]

ok, but I have never met one that like them. In fact, when I mentioned to people that I read those books, I got the dirty look marking me as some sort of perverted chauvinist.

[Morrighan61]

Yup...some women definitely LIKE the whole master, slave, barbarian captive thing....They don't care how "bad" a character gets, as long as he's gonna make them play slave in bed....I noticed that when I was watching Highlander...When I was sitting there appalled and mourning the destruction of my favorite "good guy" character, Methos, most of the HL Methos fan fic sites suddenly became virtual harems...

Me?

I wouldn't drool over THAT Methos if you paid me.

I simply don't find a character doing rape, murder, and slavery appealing...

I do still like Methos, but that's because utimately he's a character continually struggling with the consequences of his past who freely admits his mistakes, and realizes that his dark side is still there. He regrets a lot, but doesn't fool himself into thinking he's suddenly redeemed. He's not a perfect man, or even a very good one.

He's just a man trying to learn from his mistakes and stay alive.

Gor never appealed to me because I don't find that kind of swash-porn appealing...It's too degrading. I might smile wickedly and laugh over a song that naughtily discusses the merits of sex toys, as I did with Duran Duran's latest, but ultimately I don't get too excited by scenes of rampant brutality...

Norman's Gor series is just a bit too close to that for me.

I'm not into harems, neck leashes or being told what to do...

I guess I'd tie my guy down if he truly fancies it. Tickle him with feathers and make him scream, but I won't call him "slave" or beat him just so he can have a good time and I don't want HIM to do those things to me either...

Not even in my imagination, sorry...

:)

[MoonDragn]

Heh you didn't meet the right people. It is understood that the books don't focus on domination of women but a liberation of the sexuality between men and women. Superficially it may look like a book about rape and domination but its more, much more than that. Especially the later books.

Anyway, going way off topic. :(

[flar7]

Heh you didn't meet the right people. It is understood that the books don't focus on domination of women but a liberation of the sexuality between men and women. Superficially it may look like a book about rape and domination but its more, much more than that. Especially the later books.

Anyway, going way off topic. :(
dude, what? I have read nearly all of them, missed like 3 maybe in the series, and did much follow up on them especially after getting lambasted for reading them, and they are mainly about men fantasy crap. Domination of women by macho men, or some Dominatrix women, who usually end up enslaved and paying the piper to the men. there is no sexual liberation present, otherwise it wouldnt play off the untouched virgin/whore ideas. A woman is basically a slut/slave/possession/toy/whathaveyou, or she is a FreeWoman, totally covered and veiled, on a pedastel but hoarded like prize gems.

After researching Norman a bit, I realized he was a man in need of a bit of counseling and perhaps, PERHAPS, sexual deviancy courses as mandated to some paroles.

[Zophael]

Read his non-fiction book Imaginative Sex and judge for yourself. It describes the philosophy behind Gor.

[Pure Ahimsa]

I wear a lot of black, recently dyed my hair black, and am not afraid of blood and actually see it as a sign of life. Sometimes people ask me if I am goth, but Im not one of those who are depressed/suicidal/have eating disorders/the stereotypical type.
I enjoy life and love it and am happy and am a very easily-excited person, but I wear a lot of black, so hmmmm

[MoonDragn]

Read his non-fiction book Imaginative Sex and judge for yourself. It describes the philosophy behind Gor.

So what was it? Since I have never read that book. I tend to feel he thought that both sexes had problems with repressed feelings and needed to be more open. I think that it wasn't just about domination and slavery but much more to it than that.

Anyway back to the topic. I think Goth has become more of a catch phrase than anything. When you dress up to shock people it is no longer a lifestyle but more of a fashion statement. I am not really sure what Goth really is, is it dealing with the dead? the undead? the supernatural? or just blood?

[Aeres_Stormcrow]

Ah, a good thread. Ok, here I go-

First, this is my personal opinion and viewpoint on the whole 'Goth' thing. This only really relates to me and how I view the definition of this word when its applied to me.

Goth, to me, is the embracing of the darker parts of life. I have been called 'Goth' more times than I can count and I used to almost get angry at being called that because I saw myself more as a Metalhead than a Goth, but lately I have come to accept it as an unintentional complement. After all, it would almost be ridiculous of me to deny this label since I live up to many of its stereotypes:
-I love graveyards, the older and more secluded the better
-I ALWAYS wear only black clothing. It doesn't stain easy and it makes me just plain look cool! :nyah:
-I look forward to the night and actually have been known to get sad when the sun comes up. Also I stay up every night until maybe an hour or two after sunrise and then crawl into bed.
-I tend to wear black eyeliner.
-I have an obsession with Ghosts and to a lesser degree Vampires.
-I'd dress like Dracula if I could afford it and didn't have to work where I do.
-I am always seen reading books about all sorts of dark things (Ghosts, Death, Unknown Beasts, Satanic culture, etc.)
-My room is covered in decorations and posters of things such as skulls, demons, gargoyles, vampires, the reaper, etc. Gotta love dark art in its many forms!
-My favorite movies would be The Crow, Vampire Hunter D (both films), Copollas version of Dracula, Interview with the Vampire, many assorted horror films.....
-And of course theres the music. Again, this is my view of whats 'Gothic Music' so please don't hold it against me if these bands don't fit your definition: Type O Negative, London After Midnight, Moonspell, Mercyful Fate/King Diamond, Sirenia, My Dying Bride, Tristania, Draconian, Nox Arcana, Midnight Syndicate, The Cure, Sisters of Mercy, Joy Division, Miranda Sex Garden (love that name!) Even many composers such as Mozart, Bach, and Mussorgsky have done pieces that I consider Gothic. Ever heard Mozarts 'Requiem'? Gloomy, chilling and beautiful all at once!

But there are some of the stereotype that don't fit me. I don't think I am a vampire nor do I like to draw blood for sexual matters. I am not bisexual (though I was very bicurious at one time). I have an irrepressable sense of humor so I am joking and laughing constantly. I am not depressed all the time nor do I pretend to be.

So thats my own personal definition and I'm sticking with it! :D

[MoonDragn]

Hmmm based on your definition then I can't be goth. I'm sort of a metalhead in that I like metallica, megadeth, prong and slayer and the hard industrial modern stuff like Tool and NIN. I like to dress in black cause black is fashionable but can easily dress in green or red. I like ancient places to visit but not necessarily graveyards, I don't feel comfortable stepping on people dead or otherwise. I don't particularly like vampires though I would love to be a ghost hunter. I am bored with the whole undead zombie, vampire, werewolf thing but I loved movies like underworld, van helsing and resident evil. I enjoy exploring the world of the supernatural but I would probably enjoy having statues/pictures of unicorns and dragons than demons and gargoyles. I am not facinated with blood either, its hard to get the stains out.

[Bix]

Well, from the supposedly gothic people that I've met...it just seems like a lot of them want attention through shock value. That's why they wear the dark clothing, dark makeup, piercings, etc. They embrace the darker side of life to whine how life is so hard and conformist. It's like they're trying to hide from society yet at the same time want people to think they're weird and/or scary.

That, and they dance by shifting from one foot, taking a drag on their cigarette, then shifting to the other, take a drag, then repeat. :bigblue:

And there are probably people that'll disagree with me...but this is just my take on it. Feel free to disagree. :drool:

[Bronwyn]

Defining a subculture by the way they dress or what they listen to is unfair and high school-like. I listen to metal, but I in no way dress specifically in black. I actually prefer to embrace PINK.

Goth is a state of mind, a frame that is not widely accepted by the higher snooty part of society. Which is by all means okay, but it pisses me off to no end when some one calls them selves Goth or some one else says that person is Goth b/c he/she dresses in black, black eye make up, black lipstick, black boots, black fishnets, black skirt, black shirt, black leather bands on their wrists, listens to metal, et cetera.

Who you are is NOT about what you wear/listen to. It's who you are INSIDE that makes you who you are, or in this case, Goth.

[awyrdone]

ummm....like people that shop at Hot Topic and wear black.
~snaps gum with a blank expression then runs off giggling~
it's a mindset.
it's all about predestination. we are all going to die, we're all screwed so lets live lavisciously, passionatley savoring suffering and embracing joy with everything we have.
black is a plus, but I think it's turned into a fashion statement.