DoDruids believe in demons?

[blackroseivy]

I've been studying up on the subject; there is one really cool book called "Monsters" by John Michael Greer, who is both a Druid & a Ceremonial Magician, which I find interesting. There are all kinds of creatures in this book. I also have another book called "A Field Guide to Demons", which looks interesting. I'm just wondering what the Druidic take on them is? Are they regarded in strictly a Christian light? _firedevil

[Ladyvi]

demons, nasty, evil, goes by other names im sure.. they do exist. most of the time it is mans own fear manifested that they call 'sin' or 'demons' .. true demons and other nasties that some deal with do protections or send backs or purifications from. even exorcisms. on the rare occaision rear their ugly head and reak a bit of havoc.

[blackroseivy]

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought. Thanx for clarifying things!

[leaf-shadow]

demons hum? well they do exist. a demon is just a fallen soul. a evil spirit. humans, in a way, are all demonic. we use to belong to the realm of gods and goddess, but because of our spiritual failure, we became humans, and if we keep getting worse, we become demons. another kind of demon is a monster created by the vengence of a god with in the three realm. these demons are usually destructive but they exist for reasons. disease and age can be though of as this kind of demons. they are evil, they consume living beings, but they exist to make sure that humans do not go too wild.
the above is a short summary taught by buddism, daoism, as well as christainity. and i know that most of us shares a hatred towards the christains for what they've done, but i hope that u have nothing against their gods, for they did not tell their children to commit sins.

[blackroseivy]

WOOOOOOOAAAAAAAH!! I don't do no "HATIN'" on ANYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I might hate Christianity, & some particular Christians may really get my dander up, but NOBODY should HATE ANYBODY!!!!!!!!!!! Not simply on the basis of their beliefs, especially!

[KellyP]

I've been studying up on the subject; there is one really cool book called "Monsters" by John Michael Greer, who is both a Druid & a Ceremonial Magician, which I find interesting. There are all kinds of creatures in this book. I also have another book called "A Field Guide to Demons", which looks interesting. I'm just wondering what the Druidic take on them is? Are they regarded in strictly a Christian light? _firedevilAn interesting question. Before I can answer though, I would need more of a definition from you. Exactly what are you describing by the word demon. I am woefully uneducated on the topic of ceremonial magic (*quickly adds that as topic 19573 on the to-learn list*) I believe a demon in that context has a very specific meaning. Demons live in certains places, possess special names, can be invoked, demonstrate certain characteristics.

As I commonly do, I turned to the American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary to find that a demon may be defined as "1. An evil supernatural being: a devil, 2. A persistently tormenting person, force, or passion." It is often debated whether all pre-Christian IE religions had the standard dichotomy of good and evil. In my particular area of study, the Germanic peoples, it seems that forces were most divided into Order vs Chaos. Where chaos was defined as the uncontrolled ravages of nature. Horrid cold and consuming fire were often noted as being the realms of the Jotun kin. The Aesir, Vanir, and those friendly to these gods were responsible for sponsoring human efforts, cultivation, sailing, or other human endeavors.

Right behind my passion for quoting definitions, is my interest in word origins. The same American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary notes that the word demon is a variant of daimon derived from the IE root da-. A suffixed form of da- is *dai-mon which is defined as provider or divider.

So, what do you mean by demon?

[flikyflikerson]

well, what with all the evil spirits and the like in Irish folklore I would think so... but perhaps I wouldn't use the word 'demon'... it carries all sorts of connotations...

Could the Fomorians be described as a sort of 'demon' race?

[blackroseivy]

An interesting question. Before I can answer though, I would need more of a definition from you. Exactly what are you describing by the word demon. I am woefully uneducated on the topic of ceremonial magic (*quickly adds that as topic 19573 on the to-learn list*) I believe a demon in that context has a very specific meaning. Demons live in certains places, possess special names, can be invoked, demonstrate certain characteristics.

As I commonly do, I turned to the American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary to find that a demon may be defined as "1. An evil supernatural being: a devil, 2. A persistently tormenting person, force, or passion." It is often debated whether all pre-Christian IE religions had the standard dichotomy of good and evil. In my particular area of study, the Germanic peoples, it seems that forces were most divided into Order vs Chaos. Where chaos was defined as the uncontrolled ravages of nature. Horrid cold and consuming fire were often noted as being the realms of the Jotun kin. The Aesir, Vanir, and those friendly to these gods were responsible for sponsoring human efforts, cultivation, sailing, or other human endeavors.

Right behind my passion for quoting definitions, is my interest in word origins. The same American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary notes that the word demon is a variant of daimon derived from the IE root da-. A suffixed form of da- is *dai-mon which is defined as provider or divider.

So, what do you mean by demon?

What I mean by demon is, just the standard conception as it relates to Celtic lore in general, modern Druidry in particular. Whatever a demon is. I tend to think of them as evil spirits and/or processes.

Thanx, fliky, I think that that kinda addresses what I meant! :bigblue:

[KellyP]

well, what with all the evil spirits and the like in Irish folklore I would think so... but perhaps I wouldn't use the word 'demon'... it carries all sorts of connotations...

Could the Fomorians be described as a sort of 'demon' race?The Irish Fomorians, Norse Jotuns and Greek Titans are examples of what many authors consider a common feature of Indo-European religions: A race of beings representing the forces of chaos or wild nature which must be subdued by the greater Gods. In the given cases, Zeus must battle and imprison the Titans. The Tuathe De must arise from oppression to defeat the Fomorians. While the Aesir are in constant conflict with the Jotuns and in a great battle (Ragnarok) the earth is consumed by fire to be replaced by a new world.

Some authoris writing on comparative mythology among the IE cultures put forth the theory that these evil races represent the gods of indigenous peoples that were integrated into the spreading IE pastoralists [Shan M. M. Winn, J.P. Mallory].

[blackroseivy]

That's always the way: the later gods being demonized by Christianity, of course. Well, this pretty much restates what I already had some idea of, but I needed to see it again - thanx! ;)

[flikyflikerson]

Ooh, v interesting, thanks! I never considered the connections between the titans and the fomorians before :-,

[Myrddyn Emrys]

Ah, but do Demons believe in Druids? That's the bigger question....:devil:

[blackroseivy]

Oh HAR!!! :stomp:

[Grey]

The Irish Fomorians, Norse Jotuns and Greek Titans are examples of what many authors consider a common feature of Indo-European religions: A race of beings representing the forces of chaos or wild nature which must be subdued by the greater Gods. In the given cases, Zeus must battle and imprison the Titans. The Tuathe De must arise from oppression to defeat the Fomorians. While the Aesir are in constant conflict with the Jotuns and in a great battle (Ragnarok) the earth is consumed by fire to be replaced by a new world.

Some authoris writing on comparative mythology among the IE cultures put forth the theory that these evil races represent the gods of indigenous peoples that were integrated into the spreading IE pastoralists [Shan M. M. Winn, J.P. Mallory].

That's always the way: the later gods being demonized by Christianity, of course. Well, this pretty much restates what I already had some idea of, but I needed to see it again - thanx! ;)

Nope... thats the earlier gods being demonised by other pagans mam. Sorry to point it out but xtians arent the only ones who decided it was a good idea to twist pre-existing beliefs.

{ as the boy and the unicorn sat on the hill the boy said "Wow, I never believed in unicorns before... howd they come to be?" And so the unicorn thought for a moment and said "Well it doesnt seem to matter if you believe in me than it matters if I believe in you, but now that we both know we exist, lets believe in each other together." }

Do I believe in Demons? Yes, seen to much not to... the druid Ive known have talked about malignant spirits, and used the words demon from time to time... so to my knowledge, yes druids believe in demons.

[Ron]

WOOOOOOOAAAAAAAH!! I don't do no "HATIN'" on ANYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I might hate Christianity, & some particular Christians may really get my dander up, but NOBODY should HATE ANYBODY!!!!!!!!!!! Not simply on the basis of their beliefs, especially!
I know I'm late posting this, but you hilariously contractidicted yourself.

"I hate Chr-stians" identifying a group by their beliefs. "No one should hate anyone for their beliefs." ... lol but you can?

:lol: :lookaroun

Moving on, yes I believe in deamons :
a soul who does not believe and does not pass to the realm of "Heaven", but rather gets stuck inbetween. These are often people who have experienced a tramatic life and they are vengeful.
also the forces of nature that, in the post-Chr-stian sense, have a certain darkness to them.

[blackroseivy]

I said, "Christianity", NOT "Christians". I hate the way Christianity has made the world, but nobody SPECIFIC. Geddit? THE BELIEF SYSTEM, NOT THE BELIEVERS. They are NOT the same thing to me. (You gotta love that saying, "Love the sin but not the sinner"...!)

I find it rather amusing that nobody actually just sez "Christians" or "Christianity" too!

[Twig]

I find it rather amusing that nobody actually just sez "Christians" or "Christianity" too!

That would the politically incorrect. And we can't have THAT now can we??? And Hoooooo boy say "Shoot `em All and let God sort em out." and folks get down right POed any more.

No sense of humor.

Peace,
Twig

[BlueTicona]

LOL TWIG! I just love yea!

As always another good piece from a fellow druid. I'm going to have to pickup that line! ;)

"Shoot `em All and let God sort em out."

[Ladyvi]

living this life i believe requires a good sence of humor.. rather laugh than cry.

[blackroseivy]

Shoot, I didn't mean to imply that I have no sense of humor, but Rys always irks me!!

[Ron]

Shoot, I didn't mean to imply that I have no sense of humor, but Rys always irks me!!
Ouch. I'm sorry. I didn't pick up on the exact words. Sorry. I was just joking around. I didn't mean to offend you. I most certainly did not mean to "irk" you. However, I rest in faith that your feelings towards Chr-stianity are not of hatred, but rather of discontentment.

I retract my ealier claims that you contradicted yourself; I was wrong. Please excuse me.

My sinere apologies.


In faith and in learning.

[blackroseivy]

Well, I suppose it was an honest mistake... You are forgiven. I have EXTREME discontentment towards the aforesaid religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I just notice you argue alot... However, no law against that.)

[Dave the Druid]

LOL TWIG! I just love yea!

As always another good piece from a fellow druid. I'm going to have to pickup that line! ;)

"Shoot `em All and let God sort em out."
Hi guys!

Being ex-mil myself I can tell you that ""Shoot `em All and let God sort em out." is either Marine or Spec Ops in origin.

Demons!!!? Where?
I think so...but would prefer not to.....

[blackroseivy]

Hehehe!!! :D

[Ron]

I just notice you argue alot... However, no law against that. What you termed "aruging" I call "asertive debating in the spirit of brotherhood." Now, is that not what we are here to do? Well, at least that's why I am here. I like to see things from as many angles as conceiveable. For example, I am not a Chr-stian - though I used to be, and with good reason - and I do not like Christiandom, in general, as it has opposed reality and rational thought. Yet, I still stand up for Chr-stians and the like.

On a futher note, I know there are some people who come here to read posts and laugh at people for spelling things wrong, even if it's through karma touches. *ahem* skilly-nilly. There's a time for fun, but there's a fine line. So what if I spell something wrong? English is not my first language, and I persist to be fluent in it because my boyfriend speaks it and is just learning français at this time. In due course, when he's up in his français, we'll be moving to France. And I'll never have to hear another word in this confounded insolent language again. I'm not even French, it's just a nicer language. And in general Francophones are much nicer. Some anglophones will say that we are arrogant and rude, but we simply have a different culture, and a different definition of rude.

I haven't exactly had the greatest week: well even if it has been the best week of my life and the most important, I'm having a crummy time with some people who are depressed and who need my help, and I've poured myself into them.

Okay that was extremely off-topic. My apologies.

:dis:

[Ron]

Hehehe!!! :D
I have to vent again. Just because I don't make many posts that add little to the discussion, such as "LOL!!", and that I make more meaningful posts - I am bound to appear argumentative. :fishsmack Not that there is anything wrong with making supportive unverbose posts, :) don't get me wrong I love it when people post to support me. :) lol

[Ladyvi]

we can conquor all but getting everyone a shrubbery. anyone know any shrubbers.

[blackroseivy]

"MP&THG", I presume...?

Yeh, just being oh what can I call it, shallow in your responses isn't any very conducive way to being a member of the community, I suppose.

[Ladyvi]

well if there is a occult supply store or local stone shop or new age shop usually has the local pagan community in general their activities. find out and ask. druid wise may have to go further out field to flush them out. they sometimes hide and dont advertise a whole lot. in part for very good reason.

the general pagan community there maybe a great deal you can both learn and contribute.

[skilly-nilly]

On a futher note, I know there are some people who come here to read posts and laugh at people for spelling things wrong, even if it's through karma touches. *ahem* skilly-nilly. There's a time for fun, but there's a fine line. So what if I spell something wrong? English is not my first language, and I persist to be fluent in it because my boyfriend speaks it and is just learning français at this time. In due course, when he's up in his français, we'll be moving to France. And I'll never have to hear another word in this confounded insolent language again. I'm not even French, it's just a nicer language. And in general Francophones are much nicer. Some anglophones will say that we are arrogant and rude, but we simply have a different culture, and a different definition of rude.
:dis:

I have to vent again. Just because I don't make many posts that add little to the discussion, such as "LOL!!", and that I make more meaningful posts - I am bound to appear argumentative. :fishsmack Not that there is anything wrong with making supportive unverbose posts, :) don't get me wrong I love it when people post to support me. :) lol

It's a lose/lose situation:
I make a small pun, but I put it in a (positive) karma touch because it's ot. And Rhys drags it onto the thread and vents about it.

Danubhe makes a "shallow" response on the thread and Rhys vents about it.

Sooooooo, only posting to support Rhys is acceptable?

Va en France, et puis reste la.

[KellyP]

So, there seems to be a consensus among the posts thus far that Druids do believe in the concept of demons. I would now be interested in hearing exactly which classes of demonic beings (e.g. gremlins, trolls, titans) originate from the different cultures and what characteristics they possess that allow us to identify them as demons.

Is something a demon if it is focused against mortal concerns? Is danger or harm to humans a characteristic of all demons? Should benign spirits be considered demons? Are trickster gods part of the demonic class?

[Ladyvi]

whoa thats a huge subject right there. there are so many factions and groups and even down to individuals. some just demonic by nature with no intention of upsetting the balance to meglamaniac mega demons bent on ruling not only their plane of existence but others as well. not all demons need to be eradicated. some demons are demons by originination to that plane. they where birthed in that plane thus a demon though they have no wish to even show up on earth at all.

not sure if that explains it .. simple question with no simple answers. ~ shruggs~ i take it on case by case basis.

[skilly-nilly]

So, there seems to be a consensus among the posts thus far that Druids do believe in the concept of demons. I would now be interested in hearing exactly which classes of demonic beings (e.g. gremlins, trolls, titans) originate from the different cultures and what characteristics they possess that allow us to identify them as demons.

Is something a demon if it is focused against mortal concerns? Is danger or harm to humans a characteristic of all demons? Should benign spirits be considered demons? Are trickster gods part of the demonic class?


What an interesting question! :fpraiseyo

I'm still turning it over:
I believe in the existance of Evil (and that it can personify into individuals) outside of the human mind and human concerns.

But I wouldn't push Tricksters in general into that catagory. Tricksters would be more like the Good People---sometimes the things they do work out to human advantage and sometimes not, but the motive isn't generally to reward or punish. More because it's funny and to see what will happen.

I think motive is important in defining Evil. Coercion and selfishness, imo, define evil actions in contrast with the principles of care and generosity which are the basic principles of Brehon Law. And (still imo) define Good.

So (although I would prefer not to name them) those beings who exist to despoil and destroy would be demons.

Interesting :hmmmmm: , skilly-nilly

[blackroseivy]

How interesting, that you prefer not to name them... I wonder, then, what they would be.

Formorians & Fir Bolgs are a good start for me. Of course, there are the odd few in human form... They're the scariest of all, IMO.

[Ron]

It's a lose/lose situation:
I make a small pun, but I put it in a (positive) karma touch because it's ot. And Rhys drags it onto the thread and vents about it.

Danubhe makes a "shallow" response on the thread and Rhys vents about it.

Sooooooo, only posting to support Rhys is acceptable?

Va en France, et puis reste la.

lol. :) I wasn't feeling happy. I'll go away now. :tub: My apologies again.

[blackroseivy]

OH FER CRYIN' OUT BLEDDY LOUD, I WAS *AGREEING* WITH YOU FER LUVAYA!! What I meant:

Not saying more than like "LOL" doesn't really do much.

Capiche????!!!!

:atantrum: feeling MIGHTY cranky

How about saying, "shallow in ONE'S responses", or would you just have taken personal offense anyhow??? :nuhuh:

[KellyP]

Formorians & Fir Bolgs are a good start for me. Okay, so Danubhe put Formorians & FirBolgs onto the list of demons. So, enumerate which characteristics or interactions make these beings demonic. Is it because they were enemies of our gods? Do the myths tells us these entities sought to oppress mankind or do us harm?

As an example, from the Norse pantheon, one may consider elves to be demonic. Why, you ask? Well, as we know from the remaining literature, elf-shot was a term used to describe an illness. Presumably from the belief that elves shot diseased arrows into our bodies.

So, I have listed a possible demonic being and the characteristics that lead me to the conclusion. Now, what about the Formorians and FirBolgs cause them to be on our list?

[blackroseivy]

I'll look some stuff up. I suppose begining with "The Enemy" does make a kind of start, right or wrong.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

How interesting, that you prefer not to name them... I wonder, then, what they would be.

Formorians & Fir Bolgs are a good start for me. Of course, there are the odd few in human form... They're the scariest of all, IMO.
Actually, the descriptions of the Formorians were speaking metaphorically. They were human, LARGE humans, but still human. The description of them "having one eye" refers more to them being rather narrowsighted on things.

[blackroseivy]

That's an interesting take...! Hadn't heard it before. BTW, I kinda meant the people-kind, like you & me... Basically.

[skilly-nilly]

lol. :) I wasn't feeling happy. I'll go away now. :tub: My apologies again.


No worries, everyone has a bad day sometimes---no need to leave.

:) , skilly-nilly

How interesting, that you prefer not to name them... I wonder, then, what they would be.

Formorians & Fir Bolgs are a good start for me. Of course, there are the odd few in human form... They're the scariest of all, IMO.

They have names, I just prefer not to call them. I don't give supernatural beings names myself, they already have them. I could ask but in this case i woulod prefer not to.

[Grey]

Demonic is an aura of something... a demon is something that has that at its core, most often a spirit- The inate and ingrained corruption, the desire for base ownership and possession, the disdain and almost fearful at times hatred for anything with a postivie influence... That be something "demonic" in my eyes.
As for demons themselves... Twisted spirits, tortured souls, that have gained enough power to manifest themselves on the physical plane, or atleast if they are summoned as not all have the strength to do so themselves.
Just IMHO....

[blackroseivy]

I see what you mean - yes I know they have names.

[BlueTicona]

we can conquor all but getting everyone a shrubbery. anyone know any shrubbers.

aah hahaha! Nice one lady :hehehe:

[BlueTicona]

Actually, the descriptions of the Formorians were speaking metaphorically. They were human, LARGE humans, but still human. The description of them "having one eye" refers more to them being rather narrowsighted on things.

The topics such as this one above seem quite interesting to me since I have no knowledge on the subject but i'm getting like no google responses on these topics. Anyone have a general keyphrase I should be using?

Thanks much and lookin' for enlightenment,
blue

PS: Did you know that scientists say that flies brain's can only fire 2 "impluses" per second? How then do they breath and fly at the same time? :D