Is the Troth Deck Evil?

[Tabbykitty]

Hi Guys,

I brought my new tarot deck out to show some friends. And one of my friends, who is a tarot reader herself said that her previous instructor/teacher said that the Troth Deck was like the most "evil" tarot deck of them all!

I was like... WHAT?!
Well, erm..... did anyone here hear anything similar from other people and what do you al think about it?

[Dio]

I don't think it's evil....maybe the pictures and symbolism is a little more on the dark side....but not evil.

I personally don't think that there is a divination tool out there that is evil. If the symbolism speaks to you, and you are able to do readings that will help others, how can that be evil?

[IvyWitch]

You mean the Crowley Thoth deck? Personally I think any Tarot instructor who would call a deck evil needs to go back and learn a heck of a lot more about the tarot. :dis:

[Shatril]

I'm surprised that a tarot reader would have that notion. There is a lot of bad press about Aleister Crowley, that does indeed equate him with evil. He is the developer of the Thoth Deck, therefore, they must be evil. Well that is a bunch of whoey. Those are some of the most beautiful cards around, the artwork is great. If they work for you that is all that matters. I think your friend needs to do some more research on her tarot theory. She has fallen for one of the oldest hoaxes that the witch hunters put out.

:hugz: Shatril

[Bethra]

Hi Guys,

I brought my new tarot deck out to show some friends. And one of my friends, who is a tarot reader herself said that her previous instructor/teacher said that the Troth Deck was like the most "evil" tarot deck of them all!

I was like... WHAT?!
Well, erm..... did anyone here hear anything similar from other people and what do you al think about it?

Ok this I have heard from many people before. Oh no don't use that it's evil. Wrong nothing is evil just as nothing can be totaly good. A lot of people thought Crowley was evil, he isn't evil at all he was a man before his time. Sure some of his methods were a little dodgy, and yes his magic wasn't strictly white (if there is such a thing) but the guy was commited to his corse. There is a huge amount of energy in his deck and if you consider the way it was made it is no wonder there is all this energy. Some of the pictures might be a bit too harsh and yes some do make you shurder a bit, but no the cards thenselves can't be evil. Don't worry about such things, it doesn't mean very much when people say them. Take a look into the back ground of the man responcable for the deck and you can decide for yourself if you can work with them or not.

[Temptation]

The Thoth deck is not evil. It's creator, Alistair Crowley is considered by many to have been a magic practitioner of debatable morals and yes, some people would say he felt perfectly at home dwelling on the Dark Side of magic, but this doesn't mean the deck itself is evil.

How do you feel about this deck? Do you have a connection with it? Does it work for you? At then end of the day, that's all that matters. Who cares what other people think?
If your energy and the Thoth energy work well together, I wouldn't worry about what some obviously misinformed people might say. ;)

[fallingwater]

the word 'evil' stirs up a lot of defense and anger from non-christain peoples as the catholic church used this word against pagans and their beliefs and rituals hundreds of years ago.

i get angry when i hear this word even today

so you may get a lot of attention on this thread due to that word usage

as far as the thoth deck goes, i've always steered clear of it for some reason. i do not like that deck. the energy seems complicated, hard and arrogant somehow, (to me.) it is not friendly to me. however, it is almost always listed as one of the most favorite decks. many people love it and if you are drawn to it, then it is right for you.

there are no right and wrong decks. go with your heart and good luck.

[Antoninus]

Maybe she meant that it felt evil to her, not that the deck itself was evil

[Morr]

it all depends on your relationship with the cards and the meaning they hold to you. The way you feel them, the vibe they give you.

im not familiar with the Thoth deck, however I have several Tarot Decks and each has its own vibe going on.. Some more positive and cheerful and some more in your face vibes. I can say with 100% guarentee that The Black Tarot is one of those. It doesnt sugercoat anything, it doesnt have happy peachy bubbly romantic drawings and images on it. It has erotic, freaky imagery and each card's meaning is harsh and very blunt. And this is the vibe the deck gives off and its point as a whole. It directs you towards a very honest very blunt very dark reading and interpertation of the person and the situation at hand.

But I wouldnt call it evil.
I dont believe in evil.

[Tabbykitty]

There is a huge amount of energy in his deck and if you consider the way it was made it is no wonder there is all this energy.

just curious. How WAS it made? I mean did Crowley do some kinda ritual on it or something?

[Pentangling_57]

... evil? Err.... I don't really think that the deck can be evil. Not at all... The cards themselves? That doesn't make any sense.

[Tabbykitty]

How do you feel about this deck? Do you have a connection with it? Does it work for you? At then end of the day, that's all that matters.

Well... to be honest, I like the fact that it is very very frank about stuff, cos Im a rather blunt person myself and I dont like having to read too many hints.

So far the readings it has done have been very very accurate. Sometimes I think TOO ACCURATE. At one reading, it made a grown man cry! :P It said some stuff about the guy and he just didnt wanna believe it, but he knew deep down it was true.

However, sometimes when I pick up the cards, I feel a dull pain in certain parts of my body. I kinda wonder if it might be something karmic cos those are the places that hurt when I run into something or someone with whom I have major karmic issues.

Also, I tend to have disagreements with the cards a lot..... I know it sounds silly but everytime I use the cards I see, through some clairvoyance, a little... well.... entity or man standing on the cards. Sort of like the personality of the card.... heh.. Does anyone else see that kinda thing?

Thing is, we are both equally hardheaded, and sometimes I kinda get into these contests of will against the cards, to see who's gonna back down or something in the end.

Oddly enough, although I am sure it thoroughly dislikes me, it still continues working with me. I wonder why.... :whatgives :whatmewor

[Bethra]

just curious. How WAS it made? I mean did Crowley do some kinda ritual on it or something?

Yes yes he did rituals for each and every one of the cards.
Crowley was a master magus and all the cards were drawn and painted by a lady who was part of his church of Thalma. They would enter a circle, rase some energies knowing Crowley in a dubious manour :) then they would go to different sides of the circle Crowley would write huge poetry on big bits of paper (those are the poems that go with each card, you should find them in the little booklet that comes with the set). The artist, I forget her name right now, would paint the pictures. Most of the time they didn't even speek to eachother during a makeing of a card they just looked at each other looked at what the other was doing and the cards kind of created thenselves out of the energy they had between them. It was a totaly unconsious work, but for the fact that Crowley had inverably focused his consiousness so deeply be that time it was tangable I guess. Quite often other people would be around keeping the energy going inthe best Crowley fashion. It has a huge amount of sexual energy this deck and I think this has a lot to do with the way the energy was raised. Foe obvious reasons I can't go into depth on here but if you want to PM me I'll be less vague then

[Zhr Morgana]

Ugh...with all tarot decks being mass-produced as they are, its unlikely that the cards themselves would be evil...but I'm being technical about it ;)

Yes the imagery is striking and a bit on the dark side, and yes AC does get a bad rap most of the time...but with all decks, any negative energy comes from the owner him/herself and their intentions. That type of energy is bad news when rubbed off onto any tool that the person uses. In my opinion, anyway...I can always be wrong :toofless:

[Luciferish]

Having worked with Crowley's deck over the years I have noticed a certain "Blunt" quality to it, but only in that it brings to the forefront the parts of a person that may be considered less appealing.

Crowley's work had this certain "raw" nature to it, and this quality tends to be very base and blunt, no matter where you look into his writings or his cards. People who are not use to this raw nature see it as "dark" sometimes, but I would rather describe it as rather primal. The images are kinda 'icky' so this lends the cards to this disposition. I wonder how the deck would have looked given the modern creative tools to build it, but for the most part it is very symbolic and has alot of layers to it. The deck by itself is a good study in Qabalistic and Enochian concept, which if not for reading it could be worth having. I would recommend however that if the symbolism of the cards creates such a negative response in you, its time to find another deck. I use different decks for different reasons, if I pull out the Thoth I am digging for dirt, if I am after a more spiritual approach I use my Voyager... and so on..

Bare in mind however that I don't read often anymore, once I learned what the Cards did for me, I just began "Looking" directly at a situation and I get a much better picture that way, the cards are only useful to me anymore if I am in a state of distress and can't focus or something is beyond my vision.

[LisaT4P]

The Thoth deck was created by Lady Frieda Harris at the instruction of Crowley. Here is a link to the study group on this deck over at aeclectic: http://www.tarotforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=57

Edited to add this article from Witchvox on Thelema: http://www.witchvox.com/trads/trad_thelema.html

[MoonDragn]

the word 'evil' stirs up a lot of defense and anger from non-christain peoples as the catholic church used this word against pagans and their beliefs and rituals hundreds of years ago.

i get angry when i hear this word even today

so you may get a lot of attention on this thread due to that word usage

as far as the thoth deck goes, i've always steered clear of it for some reason. i do not like that deck. the energy seems complicated, hard and arrogant somehow, (to me.) it is not friendly to me. however, it is almost always listed as one of the most favorite decks. many people love it and if you are drawn to it, then it is right for you.

there are no right and wrong decks. go with your heart and good luck.


That is exactly how I feel about the deck. I have steered clear of it many times. I don't think its more evil than mischevious. Like it is just waiting to cause trouble.

[sari0009]

Crowley was a bit of an attention hog trickster, troubled in many ways, but a tarot deck evil? No. The idea that an inanimate object, or even the ideas/symbols within it, could be inherently evil is not within my worldview or reality but if someone wants to live in a world in which things are imbued with "evil" or "good" then well...that's their choice.

Question everyone and everything and choose your teachers carefully for they are not beyond reproach--I think that's good general advice.

[Londubh]

For anyone wanting to understand more about the Thoth tarot deck I highly recommend the book by Lon Milo Duquette "Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot".

In the book he talks about Crowley's symbolism minus all of Crowley's drama. He also has excerpts of letters written between Crowley and Lady Harris in regard to the creation of the deck. Some of the letters are pretty funny. Uncle Al was a drama queen and Lady Harris was a bit of a drama queen herself.

Every member of the Golden Dawn was required to create a tarot deck as part of their initiatory process; just not every deck became public. Crowley loved the drama of being 'dark' and loved to make people uncomfortable. It doesn't make his work evil, it's only scary if you don't understand.

I also recommend any thing else that Lon Milo Duquette has written.

[Shatril]

For anyone wanting to understand more about the Thoth tarot deck I highly recommend the book by Lon Milo Duquette "Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot".

In the book he talks about Crowley's symbolism minus all of Crowley's drama. He also has excerpts of letters written between Crowley and Lady Harris in regard to the creation of the deck. Some of the letters are pretty funny. Uncle Al was a drama queen and Lady Harris was a bit of a drama queen herself.

Every member of the Golden Dawn was required to create a tarot deck as part of their initiatory process; just not every deck became public. Crowley loved the drama of being 'dark' and loved to make people uncomfortable. It doesn't make his work evil, it's only scary if you don't understand.

I also recommend any thing else that Lon Milo Duquette has written.
Well I second that recommendation about Lon Milo Duquette. His work is informative, light and in some places humorous. I haven't read the Thoth Tarot one, but it is on my shelf to read. I also read his book on The Magick of Aleister Crowley, and My Life with the Spirits. Loved them both. I'm currently reading The Chicken Qabalah of Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford, and it is starting out fun.

[AlAskendir]

Hi Guys,

I brought my new tarot deck out to show some friends. And one of my friends, who is a tarot reader herself said that her previous instructor/teacher said that the Troth Deck was like the most "evil" tarot deck of them all!

I was like... WHAT?!
Well, erm..... did anyone here hear anything similar from other people and what do you al think about it?

Are you sure a/he didn't say the 'Thoth Deck'? IE, the deck designed by Aleister Crowley?

[Djinn]

I had a Crowley deck for a long time but I never read with it. I just couldn't get into the art or the imagery. I ended up giving the deck to an acquaintance who was into Crowley's work.

But evil? Nah. Dark, intense, disturbing, sure. Those are not necessarily bad qualities in tarot cards. If you find that you aren't "getting along" with your deck, maybe someone else would be more compatible with it.

[Niamh celtic mist]

This a deck that I have been thinking of getting so I value all of these comments. Needless to say I have also heard other people refer to it as evil and to stay away from it. I don't believe it to be evil..dark perhaps..but as someone else mentioned..the use of different decks to get a certain angle of a situation can be helpful....
:sunny:

[Xander67]

You mean the Crowley Thoth deck? Personally I think any Tarot instructor who would call a deck evil needs to go back and learn a heck of a lot more about the tarot. :dis:

I agree.. I think this teacher is allowing thier own personal judgements to affect thier teaching..

[tellmethetruth]

I hope you all don't mind me "raising the dead" here, but I got the Thoth deck a few days ago. It's my first deck, my first time ever reading tarot cards, and it's been uncannily accurate. I just can't get over how well it's working.

I haven't got a sense of evil from it at all, but now that I stumbled upon this thread I'll probably look at it a little different. I hope not - since it was working!

[Zephyrstorm]

lol - its an interesting thread - I love my Thoth deck, even if it isn't used much. Its the only deck that my husband gets readings from, he connects much better with it than my others.

It's not evil at all, neither is Thelema - Crowley, while not a perfect person, wasn't evil, just very good at getting pr done.
And while yes, there were rituals done in terms of connecting with the imagery and what he was trying to express, it was no more different than some of the rituals for inspiration that any other author or artist might do... his method was just a bit more... ceremonial in nature than some others.

Don't worry about the cards, tellmethetruth. If it works for you, then it works. I really got a lot from reading Lon Milo duQuette's book on the Thoth. That would help you with getting what Crowley wanted, what the artist did and what the Thelemites see in the cards. ;)

[RainInanna]

My Thoth deck is rarely used. I don't love the imagery, although the readings it gives are usually to the point, blunt, and don't make time for bs.

[PrincessKLS]

Hi Guys,

I brought my new tarot deck out to show some friends. And one of my friends, who is a tarot reader herself said that her previous instructor/teacher said that the Troth Deck was like the most "evil" tarot deck of them all!

I was like... WHAT?!
Well, erm..... did anyone here hear anything similar from other people and what do you al think about it?


I don't think so, I've had a psychic use the Thoth Tarot and I've thought of getting it myself. And her perdictions were great with all the good and bad she gave me.

[PrincessKLS]

Oh course many of her predictions are yet to reveal themselves but she seemed to be able to look into past lives and my future really well.

[aluokaloo]

no tarot deck is evil, but if it feels wrong to you then maybe it's just not your kinda deck.

[Taliesyn]

:rotfl: The evil......:rotfl::rotfl:

I'm not a fan of the Deck, but that's just cause I had one when I was just starting out and wasn't really ready to understand the symbolisim. I do however have a good friend who uses it. she's an astrologer, so all the planetary symbolisim means so much to her. getting a reading is like having your chart done- you better bring a tape recorder!!

but as for accurate readings, or making folks cry- any tarot reading could do that- it depends on the counseling skill of the reader to tell the querent what the cards say in a way that they can understand without shutting down.

evil?!? nah. don't really belive in that stuff anyway.

[RavensEye]

Thoth deck imo always gives off a very strong energy, but I have never considered it if was good or bad.. And as for the concept of evil I do not think apply to the tarot either . Just like I do not believe it is a devils tool either..

[Against The Tide]

I love the Troth deck. I would never call it evil, but those Egyptian themed cards always make my mind travel in weird directions.

[Whitewolf]

Thoth deck imo always gives off a very strong energy, but I have never considered it if was good or bad.. And as for the concept of evil I do not think apply to the tarot either . Just like I do not believe it is a devils tool either.. I agree. Tarot cards aren't evil.