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Tabbykitty
February 13th, 2005, 11:34 AM
Hi Guys,

I brought my new tarot deck out to show some friends. And one of my friends, who is a tarot reader herself said that her previous instructor/teacher said that the Troth Deck was like the most "evil" tarot deck of them all!

I was like... WHAT?!
Well, erm..... did anyone here hear anything similar from other people and what do you al think about it?

Dio
February 13th, 2005, 11:44 AM
I don't think it's evil....maybe the pictures and symbolism is a little more on the dark side....but not evil.

I personally don't think that there is a divination tool out there that is evil. If the symbolism speaks to you, and you are able to do readings that will help others, how can that be evil?

IvyWitch
February 13th, 2005, 11:45 AM
You mean the Crowley Thoth deck? Personally I think any Tarot instructor who would call a deck evil needs to go back and learn a heck of a lot more about the tarot. :dis:

Shatril
February 13th, 2005, 11:48 AM
I'm surprised that a tarot reader would have that notion. There is a lot of bad press about Aleister Crowley, that does indeed equate him with evil. He is the developer of the Thoth Deck, therefore, they must be evil. Well that is a bunch of whoey. Those are some of the most beautiful cards around, the artwork is great. If they work for you that is all that matters. I think your friend needs to do some more research on her tarot theory. She has fallen for one of the oldest hoaxes that the witch hunters put out.

:hugz: Shatril

Bethra
February 13th, 2005, 02:50 PM
Hi Guys,

I brought my new tarot deck out to show some friends. And one of my friends, who is a tarot reader herself said that her previous instructor/teacher said that the Troth Deck was like the most "evil" tarot deck of them all!

I was like... WHAT?!
Well, erm..... did anyone here hear anything similar from other people and what do you al think about it?

Ok this I have heard from many people before. Oh no don't use that it's evil. Wrong nothing is evil just as nothing can be totaly good. A lot of people thought Crowley was evil, he isn't evil at all he was a man before his time. Sure some of his methods were a little dodgy, and yes his magic wasn't strictly white (if there is such a thing) but the guy was commited to his corse. There is a huge amount of energy in his deck and if you consider the way it was made it is no wonder there is all this energy. Some of the pictures might be a bit too harsh and yes some do make you shurder a bit, but no the cards thenselves can't be evil. Don't worry about such things, it doesn't mean very much when people say them. Take a look into the back ground of the man responcable for the deck and you can decide for yourself if you can work with them or not.

Temptation
February 13th, 2005, 03:01 PM
The Thoth deck is not evil. It's creator, Alistair Crowley is considered by many to have been a magic practitioner of debatable morals and yes, some people would say he felt perfectly at home dwelling on the Dark Side of magic, but this doesn't mean the deck itself is evil.

How do you feel about this deck? Do you have a connection with it? Does it work for you? At then end of the day, that's all that matters. Who cares what other people think?
If your energy and the Thoth energy work well together, I wouldn't worry about what some obviously misinformed people might say. ;)

fallingwater
February 13th, 2005, 03:19 PM
the word 'evil' stirs up a lot of defense and anger from non-christain peoples as the catholic church used this word against pagans and their beliefs and rituals hundreds of years ago.

i get angry when i hear this word even today

so you may get a lot of attention on this thread due to that word usage

as far as the thoth deck goes, i've always steered clear of it for some reason. i do not like that deck. the energy seems complicated, hard and arrogant somehow, (to me.) it is not friendly to me. however, it is almost always listed as one of the most favorite decks. many people love it and if you are drawn to it, then it is right for you.

there are no right and wrong decks. go with your heart and good luck.

Antoninus
February 13th, 2005, 04:14 PM
Maybe she meant that it felt evil to her, not that the deck itself was evil

Morr
February 13th, 2005, 04:33 PM
it all depends on your relationship with the cards and the meaning they hold to you. The way you feel them, the vibe they give you.

im not familiar with the Thoth deck, however I have several Tarot Decks and each has its own vibe going on.. Some more positive and cheerful and some more in your face vibes. I can say with 100% guarentee that The Black Tarot is one of those. It doesnt sugercoat anything, it doesnt have happy peachy bubbly romantic drawings and images on it. It has erotic, freaky imagery and each card's meaning is harsh and very blunt. And this is the vibe the deck gives off and its point as a whole. It directs you towards a very honest very blunt very dark reading and interpertation of the person and the situation at hand.

But I wouldnt call it evil.
I dont believe in evil.

Tabbykitty
February 13th, 2005, 09:11 PM
There is a huge amount of energy in his deck and if you consider the way it was made it is no wonder there is all this energy.

just curious. How WAS it made? I mean did Crowley do some kinda ritual on it or something?

Pentangling_57
February 13th, 2005, 09:19 PM
... evil? Err.... I don't really think that the deck can be evil. Not at all... The cards themselves? That doesn't make any sense.

Tabbykitty
February 13th, 2005, 09:32 PM
How do you feel about this deck? Do you have a connection with it? Does it work for you? At then end of the day, that's all that matters.

Well... to be honest, I like the fact that it is very very frank about stuff, cos Im a rather blunt person myself and I dont like having to read too many hints.

So far the readings it has done have been very very accurate. Sometimes I think TOO ACCURATE. At one reading, it made a grown man cry! :P It said some stuff about the guy and he just didnt wanna believe it, but he knew deep down it was true.

However, sometimes when I pick up the cards, I feel a dull pain in certain parts of my body. I kinda wonder if it might be something karmic cos those are the places that hurt when I run into something or someone with whom I have major karmic issues.

Also, I tend to have disagreements with the cards a lot..... I know it sounds silly but everytime I use the cards I see, through some clairvoyance, a little... well.... entity or man standing on the cards. Sort of like the personality of the card.... heh.. Does anyone else see that kinda thing?

Thing is, we are both equally hardheaded, and sometimes I kinda get into these contests of will against the cards, to see who's gonna back down or something in the end.

Oddly enough, although I am sure it thoroughly dislikes me, it still continues working with me. I wonder why.... :whatgives :whatmewor

Bethra
February 14th, 2005, 02:43 AM
just curious. How WAS it made? I mean did Crowley do some kinda ritual on it or something?

Yes yes he did rituals for each and every one of the cards.
Crowley was a master magus and all the cards were drawn and painted by a lady who was part of his church of Thalma. They would enter a circle, rase some energies knowing Crowley in a dubious manour :) then they would go to different sides of the circle Crowley would write huge poetry on big bits of paper (those are the poems that go with each card, you should find them in the little booklet that comes with the set). The artist, I forget her name right now, would paint the pictures. Most of the time they didn't even speek to eachother during a makeing of a card they just looked at each other looked at what the other was doing and the cards kind of created thenselves out of the energy they had between them. It was a totaly unconsious work, but for the fact that Crowley had inverably focused his consiousness so deeply be that time it was tangable I guess. Quite often other people would be around keeping the energy going inthe best Crowley fashion. It has a huge amount of sexual energy this deck and I think this has a lot to do with the way the energy was raised. Foe obvious reasons I can't go into depth on here but if you want to PM me I'll be less vague then

Zhr Morgana
February 14th, 2005, 04:02 AM
Ugh...with all tarot decks being mass-produced as they are, its unlikely that the cards themselves would be evil...but I'm being technical about it ;)

Yes the imagery is striking and a bit on the dark side, and yes AC does get a bad rap most of the time...but with all decks, any negative energy comes from the owner him/herself and their intentions. That type of energy is bad news when rubbed off onto any tool that the person uses. In my opinion, anyway...I can always be wrong :toofless:

Luciferish
February 14th, 2005, 04:04 AM
Having worked with Crowley's deck over the years I have noticed a certain "Blunt" quality to it, but only in that it brings to the forefront the parts of a person that may be considered less appealing.

Crowley's work had this certain "raw" nature to it, and this quality tends to be very base and blunt, no matter where you look into his writings or his cards. People who are not use to this raw nature see it as "dark" sometimes, but I would rather describe it as rather primal. The images are kinda 'icky' so this lends the cards to this disposition. I wonder how the deck would have looked given the modern creative tools to build it, but for the most part it is very symbolic and has alot of layers to it. The deck by itself is a good study in Qabalistic and Enochian concept, which if not for reading it could be worth having. I would recommend however that if the symbolism of the cards creates such a negative response in you, its time to find another deck. I use different decks for different reasons, if I pull out the Thoth I am digging for dirt, if I am after a more spiritual approach I use my Voyager... and so on..

Bare in mind however that I don't read often anymore, once I learned what the Cards did for me, I just began "Looking" directly at a situation and I get a much better picture that way, the cards are only useful to me anymore if I am in a state of distress and can't focus or something is beyond my vision.

LisaT4P
February 14th, 2005, 09:33 AM
The Thoth deck was created by Lady Frieda Harris at the instruction of Crowley. Here is a link to the study group on this deck over at aeclectic: http://www.tarotforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=57

Edited to add this article from Witchvox on Thelema: http://www.witchvox.com/trads/trad_thelema.html

MoonDragn
February 14th, 2005, 12:43 PM
the word 'evil' stirs up a lot of defense and anger from non-christain peoples as the catholic church used this word against pagans and their beliefs and rituals hundreds of years ago.

i get angry when i hear this word even today

so you may get a lot of attention on this thread due to that word usage

as far as the thoth deck goes, i've always steered clear of it for some reason. i do not like that deck. the energy seems complicated, hard and arrogant somehow, (to me.) it is not friendly to me. however, it is almost always listed as one of the most favorite decks. many people love it and if you are drawn to it, then it is right for you.

there are no right and wrong decks. go with your heart and good luck.


That is exactly how I feel about the deck. I have steered clear of it many times. I don't think its more evil than mischevious. Like it is just waiting to cause trouble.

sari0009
February 14th, 2005, 01:02 PM
Crowley was a bit of an attention hog trickster, troubled in many ways, but a tarot deck evil? No. The idea that an inanimate object, or even the ideas/symbols within it, could be inherently evil is not within my worldview or reality but if someone wants to live in a world in which things are imbued with "evil" or "good" then well...that's their choice.

Question everyone and everything and choose your teachers carefully for they are not beyond reproach--I think that's good general advice.

Londubh
February 14th, 2005, 01:37 PM
For anyone wanting to understand more about the Thoth tarot deck I highly recommend the book by Lon Milo Duquette "Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot".

In the book he talks about Crowley's symbolism minus all of Crowley's drama. He also has excerpts of letters written between Crowley and Lady Harris in regard to the creation of the deck. Some of the letters are pretty funny. Uncle Al was a drama queen and Lady Harris was a bit of a drama queen herself.

Every member of the Golden Dawn was required to create a tarot deck as part of their initiatory process; just not every deck became public. Crowley loved the drama of being 'dark' and loved to make people uncomfortable. It doesn't make his work evil, it's only scary if you don't understand.

I also recommend any thing else that Lon Milo Duquette has written.

Shatril
February 14th, 2005, 09:25 PM
For anyone wanting to understand more about the Thoth tarot deck I highly recommend the book by Lon Milo Duquette "Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot".

In the book he talks about Crowley's symbolism minus all of Crowley's drama. He also has excerpts of letters written between Crowley and Lady Harris in regard to the creation of the deck. Some of the letters are pretty funny. Uncle Al was a drama queen and Lady Harris was a bit of a drama queen herself.

Every member of the Golden Dawn was required to create a tarot deck as part of their initiatory process; just not every deck became public. Crowley loved the drama of being 'dark' and loved to make people uncomfortable. It doesn't make his work evil, it's only scary if you don't understand.

I also recommend any thing else that Lon Milo Duquette has written.
Well I second that recommendation about Lon Milo Duquette. His work is informative, light and in some places humorous. I haven't read the Thoth Tarot one, but it is on my shelf to read. I also read his book on The Magick of Aleister Crowley, and My Life with the Spirits. Loved them both. I'm currently reading The Chicken Qabalah of Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford, and it is starting out fun.

AlAskendir
February 14th, 2005, 09:57 PM
Hi Guys,

I brought my new tarot deck out to show some friends. And one of my friends, who is a tarot reader herself said that her previous instructor/teacher said that the Troth Deck was like the most "evil" tarot deck of them all!

I was like... WHAT?!
Well, erm..... did anyone here hear anything similar from other people and what do you al think about it?

Are you sure a/he didn't say the 'Thoth Deck'? IE, the deck designed by Aleister Crowley?

Djinn
February 14th, 2005, 10:13 PM
I had a Crowley deck for a long time but I never read with it. I just couldn't get into the art or the imagery. I ended up giving the deck to an acquaintance who was into Crowley's work.

But evil? Nah. Dark, intense, disturbing, sure. Those are not necessarily bad qualities in tarot cards. If you find that you aren't "getting along" with your deck, maybe someone else would be more compatible with it.

Niamh celtic mist
February 15th, 2005, 03:18 PM
This a deck that I have been thinking of getting so I value all of these comments. Needless to say I have also heard other people refer to it as evil and to stay away from it. I don't believe it to be evil..dark perhaps..but as someone else mentioned..the use of different decks to get a certain angle of a situation can be helpful....
:sunny:

Xander67
February 16th, 2005, 01:15 AM
You mean the Crowley Thoth deck? Personally I think any Tarot instructor who would call a deck evil needs to go back and learn a heck of a lot more about the tarot. :dis:

I agree.. I think this teacher is allowing thier own personal judgements to affect thier teaching..

tellmethetruth
January 31st, 2008, 11:50 AM
I hope you all don't mind me "raising the dead" here, but I got the Thoth deck a few days ago. It's my first deck, my first time ever reading tarot cards, and it's been uncannily accurate. I just can't get over how well it's working.

I haven't got a sense of evil from it at all, but now that I stumbled upon this thread I'll probably look at it a little different. I hope not - since it was working!

Zephyrstorm
January 31st, 2008, 12:59 PM
lol - its an interesting thread - I love my Thoth deck, even if it isn't used much. Its the only deck that my husband gets readings from, he connects much better with it than my others.

It's not evil at all, neither is Thelema - Crowley, while not a perfect person, wasn't evil, just very good at getting pr done.
And while yes, there were rituals done in terms of connecting with the imagery and what he was trying to express, it was no more different than some of the rituals for inspiration that any other author or artist might do... his method was just a bit more... ceremonial in nature than some others.

Don't worry about the cards, tellmethetruth. If it works for you, then it works. I really got a lot from reading Lon Milo duQuette's book on the Thoth. That would help you with getting what Crowley wanted, what the artist did and what the Thelemites see in the cards. ;)

RainInanna
January 31st, 2008, 01:07 PM
My Thoth deck is rarely used. I don't love the imagery, although the readings it gives are usually to the point, blunt, and don't make time for bs.

PrincessKLS
January 31st, 2008, 02:54 PM
Hi Guys,

I brought my new tarot deck out to show some friends. And one of my friends, who is a tarot reader herself said that her previous instructor/teacher said that the Troth Deck was like the most "evil" tarot deck of them all!

I was like... WHAT?!
Well, erm..... did anyone here hear anything similar from other people and what do you al think about it?


I don't think so, I've had a psychic use the Thoth Tarot and I've thought of getting it myself. And her perdictions were great with all the good and bad she gave me.

PrincessKLS
February 1st, 2008, 02:12 PM
Oh course many of her predictions are yet to reveal themselves but she seemed to be able to look into past lives and my future really well.

aluokaloo
February 1st, 2008, 02:19 PM
no tarot deck is evil, but if it feels wrong to you then maybe it's just not your kinda deck.

Taliesyn
February 1st, 2008, 07:14 PM
:rotfl: The evil......:rotfl::rotfl:

I'm not a fan of the Deck, but that's just cause I had one when I was just starting out and wasn't really ready to understand the symbolisim. I do however have a good friend who uses it. she's an astrologer, so all the planetary symbolisim means so much to her. getting a reading is like having your chart done- you better bring a tape recorder!!

but as for accurate readings, or making folks cry- any tarot reading could do that- it depends on the counseling skill of the reader to tell the querent what the cards say in a way that they can understand without shutting down.

evil?!? nah. don't really belive in that stuff anyway.

SilverClaw
February 1st, 2008, 10:06 PM
Thoth deck imo always gives off a very strong energy, but I have never considered it if was good or bad.. And as for the concept of evil I do not think apply to the tarot either . Just like I do not believe it is a devils tool either..

Against The Tide
February 1st, 2008, 10:46 PM
I love the Troth deck. I would never call it evil, but those Egyptian themed cards always make my mind travel in weird directions.

Whitewolf
February 1st, 2008, 11:34 PM
Thoth deck imo always gives off a very strong energy, but I have never considered it if was good or bad.. And as for the concept of evil I do not think apply to the tarot either . Just like I do not believe it is a devils tool either.. I agree. Tarot cards aren't evil.

Xander67
January 31st, 2010, 06:32 PM
You mean the Crowley Thoth deck? Personally I think any Tarot instructor who would call a deck evil needs to go back and learn a heck of a lot more about the tarot. :dis:
:thumbsup:

Allytria
February 1st, 2010, 12:24 AM
Evil exists in all things. Light without dark is impossible. A tarot deck is but bits of paper with pretty pictures. It is not evil. Those pretty pictures connect us symbolically to our subconscious minds, using Archetypes. I own a copy of the Necronomicon tarot. Is such a deck evil? Or is it mere perception that causes this reaction?

thought_on_a_wind
February 1st, 2010, 12:48 AM
Crowley was a strange man, very strange, is strange inherently evil? I suppose it depends upon your definition. Maybe this teacher was getting loathes confused with it's evil? I tried the Thoth deck, bought one for my friend, but it just didn't connect like any deck I've chosen (or recently had chosen... thanks to those who did it ;) you know who you are) has. I do not believe it evil, my path is different... as I feel the same for this teacher, it doesn't fall along their ideology.

Were I to connect with it, I'd probably not associate it with strange either. It works, and is powerful, but it's just the type of power it has that defines it as a deck as well as the lessons and perceptions instilled upon it by the teachings of Crowley.

Evil? What is Evil? Strange... I believe so, powerful, certainly concur with that, but... I'd have to agree with the bulk and say that that teacher may want to look at their own perceptions of good or evil before judging another's path/what connects with them.

Shawn Blackwolf
February 1st, 2010, 01:02 AM
Yah know...:hahugh:

Just to point out , the Admn , might want to change the title
of this long sleeping , yet newly resurrected thread , by ye olde
artz of thread necromancy...

Or we could be getting a post from a member of Asatru...:smileroll

An "ahem" , so to speak...

"What do you mean , is the Troth Deck evil" ?

( funny , I did not even know heathen's had a Troth Deck )

http://www.thetroth.org/about/mission-statement

thought_on_a_wind
February 1st, 2010, 01:59 AM
Yah know...:hahugh:

Just to point out , the Admn , might want to change the title
of this long sleeping , yet newly resurrected thread , by ye olde
artz of thread necromancy...

Or we could be getting a post from a member of Asatru...:smileroll

An "ahem" , so to speak...

"What do you mean , is the Troth Deck evil" ?

( funny , I did not even know heathen's had a Troth Deck )

http://www.thetroth.org/about/mission-statement
*Looks above beyond thought and Shawn* 'twasnt me who wore the threadomancy robes, I promised myself one thread per quarter... this wasn't it... good point about the mispelling by the by.

PeatBog
February 1st, 2010, 02:27 AM
The 'Troth' isn't "evil", but if you want to use it in depth, it would be ideal if you have an interest in Thelema since it has thelemic symbolism. I hardly ever use it because it's, to some extent, another Egyptian deck, and I've never been crazy about Egyptian tarot decks. I do like much of Harris' 'Troth' art though, particularly the horses.

EntwinedScylla
February 1st, 2010, 03:37 AM
Not evil, but picky and finicky (like Uncle Al, the deck is a big, dramatic, wig-snatching, queen), and will often throw the worst cards it has at you when your focus isn't resolute.

A few dozen times of "War, Famine, Plague, Destruction, despair... hey, when did this deck get a card with just a giant middle finger on it?" can convince even the best readers that something is amiss.

Spica
February 1st, 2010, 01:53 PM
When I bought my first deck at the tender age of 13, it was the Thoth deck.
I had heard that it was a good deck with great symbolism and so I went and bought it.

I've never been comfortable using the deck and this was way before I even heard all the stuff surrounding Crowley and his magic. Now that Im years older and a bit more wiser than before, I believe that Crowley was a man who was abnormally in contact with his shadow-self. You are supposed to be aware of your shadow, sure, but not to the point that Crowley seemed to be. Of course I could be wrong about my assumptions, but this is the conclusion I've come to about him and his tarot cards. The images are shadow-self inspired and there is very little balance. You infuse your creations with BOTH your shadow and higher self and if there is no balance, the more sensitive people will certainly notice the lack of balance. Me being one of them.

So are the cards evil? No. Just shadow-self infused with a lack of balance.

AncientFlame
February 2nd, 2010, 12:09 AM
Not evil, but picky and finicky (like Uncle Al, the deck is a big, dramatic, wig-snatching, queen), and will often throw the worst cards it has at you when your focus isn't resolute.

A few dozen times of "War, Famine, Plague, Destruction, despair... hey, when did this deck get a card with just a giant middle finger on it?" can convince even the best readers that something is amiss.

That comment is full of win! Your description is not only accurate, but hugin' HILARIOUS! Karma!

Shawn Blackwolf
February 2nd, 2010, 12:14 AM
I see them , as do many others , as totally balanced...

Do you , perchamce , consider yourself middle ground ?



So are the cards evil? No. Just shadow-self infused with a lack of balance.

Nachtigall
February 2nd, 2010, 06:01 AM
Well, maybe I'm just not sensitive enough, but to me the deck doesn't seem unbalanced at all.

Kaliayev
February 2nd, 2010, 06:54 AM
Not only is the Thoth Deck evil, it will kill you in your sleep.

Oh yeah, you just thought that was a papercut, didn't you? No, that was attempted murder.

Meadhbh
February 2nd, 2010, 12:04 PM
Granted I've never used the deck myself. But I don't think a deck and of its self could be called evil. As their just cards, its comes down how a person sees the cards. If you think their meanings are mostly negative then well for you it will be.

Corvis Canis Latrans
February 2nd, 2010, 12:22 PM
Well, maybe I'm just not sensitive enough, but to me the deck doesn't seem unbalanced at all.

Same.

I've had mine since I was around 12.

If anything, it usually gives me more consistently uplifting readings than several of my other decks. I've always thought the colors and patterns seemed predominantly positive. Not fluffy, definitely edgy, but also energetic and positive (I'm not speaking emotionally per se, but as in an outburst of energy sort of positive. Energy outward rather than a void).

Spica
February 2nd, 2010, 12:47 PM
I see them , as do many others , as totally balanced...

Do you , perchamce , consider yourself middle ground ?

Middle ground? What do you mean with that?

Like I said, I don't think they are "evil", just mainly shadow-self infused which is why some people might be uncomfortable using them. That is where the lack of balance comes from in MY humble opinion.

Corvis Canis Latrans
February 2nd, 2010, 12:49 PM
Out of curiosity, whose shadow self?

Crowley didn't make the cards, Lady Frieda Harris did.

It should be noted that I had the deck long before I had Crowley's book, so I had Harris's sparking and energetic art long before I learned Crowley's ideology.

Spica
February 2nd, 2010, 01:42 PM
Out of curiosity, whose shadow self?

Crowley didn't make the cards, Lady Frieda Harris did.

It should be noted that I had the deck long before I had Crowley's book, so I had Harris's sparking and energetic art long before I learned Crowley's ideology.

Done by Frieda but done under Crowleys eye who instructed her on what symbols to use.
If I remember correctly tho, Frieda designed the cards when WW2 started,
which would explain the choice of colors and imagery on her behalf.

I have heard many people say that they are uncomfortable with the deck and the only explanation that I've personally come up with is that the cards are indeed highly energetic but the energy is shadow-self based. The drawings, done by Frieda, use earth-based colors (brown, dark green, murky yellow), whereas the Rider Waite is a bit more colorful with a lot of yellow (solar plexus) colors and blue (throat chakra). Of course someone might now think that Im uncomfortable with his deck because I have shadow-self problems myself, but I would have to disagree.

I was attracted to his deck because of the dark colors and openmindedly used them for a while until I noticed that TO ME there was an abnormal lack of balance. (And I never knew the stuff surrounding him until I stopped using the cards) Perhaps Im the one who is too sensitive, like many others who have felt uncomfortable using the deck, but this is the conclusion I came to. So it's not an "evil" deck, just shadow-self infused which might be attractive to some people.

Corvis Canis Latrans
February 2nd, 2010, 02:00 PM
Did you by chance have one of the infamous "green" decks?

I don't and the colors are actually as bright as the RW deck.

I should note I'm asking as much out of reaction to color, to anything. I'm probably about the least sensitive to vibes and inherent energy so I hope my posts aren't coming off as disbelieving or confrontational, just curious and narrowing things down. :)

Spica
February 2nd, 2010, 03:23 PM
Did you by chance have one of the infamous "green" decks?

I don't and the colors are actually as bright as the RW deck.

I should note I'm asking as much out of reaction to color, to anything. I'm probably about the least sensitive to vibes and inherent energy so I hope my posts aren't coming off as disbelieving or confrontational, just curious and narrowing things down. :)

No, I have the blue deck. I have to admit that Im using the Radiant RW version.... :whistle: I like it better than the original RW. The images open up a bit better, not to mention the symbols.

When I used the Thoth deck I had a problem looking at the images "directly" (still do) so I always looked at the background, which is why I mentioned the colors of the deck being very dark/murky. I like earth-based colors a lot, but in the deck they are used overwhelmingly. Anyways, this is a personal thing of course (most love the colors, I know) but the fact that I felt the deck was unbalanced before even knowing Crowley nor even being half as sensitive as I am today, says a lot to me.

I have to add that in no way am I saying that people shouldn't use the deck! I think that everyone should own the deck, whether or not they use it. The symbolism in it is fantastic and draws from many traditions, but if one is highly sensitive to colors & symbols, they should be aware of the possibility that they might just also 'feel' the illustrator and the man behind the cards.

EntwinedScylla
February 2nd, 2010, 07:25 PM
Of course someone might now think that Im uncomfortable with his deck because I have shadow-self problems myself, but I would have to disagree.


I'd be curious to see how you respond to The Diary of a Broken Soul (http://www.alchemywebsite.com/tarot/art_tarot18.html) deck, because the aversion to the imagery of the Thoth deck (and your conclusion that it represents the Shadow overtly) does suggest that you may have issues with the Shadow as a concept, if not your own. And I don't mean that in a bad way.

I also have to say that it's a touchy idea to suggest that you're getting vibes based upon your psychic sensitivity, because it makes some very poor impressions. On one hand, there can be an implication of superiority on one's own part and on the other hand, that one is so overly-sensitive that dots of ink on pasteboard makes them squicky.

That sort of word-use is a peeve of mine, and I don't mean my comments to be taken personally. I just think folks need to move away from that thinking.

Back on the main topic:
I think that the reaction each individual practitioner has to a deck is their own power interacting with what they, as a singular person, find within the deck.

The Thoth is a wig-snatching queen toward me because that's how I think of Crowley. I think of him as wig-snatching, overly self-important, dramatic, old turd, prone to belting out obscene things just for the reaction. Thus, my Thoth deck is the same.

If I thought of Crowley in the way -he- tried so very hard to be seen, I could envision the deck taking on a different angle entirely. Unfortunately, I read just enough about him to associate him with a good portion of the Occult-obsessed kids I meet at the local club that like to claim they're the incarnations of Lucifer, or that they have Werewolf heritage. :P

Shawn Blackwolf
February 2nd, 2010, 10:59 PM
I first integrated the Thoth deck , in the early 1980's ,
while tripping on many micrograms of pure LSD...

And over subsequent months , during mushroom
journeys , hash haze , and a DMT experience...

No problem...I , as well , am extremely psychic ,
and a sensitive...

However...I was also the type , that went to see the
Exorcist , when it first came out , on LSD...:smileroll

I tapped my friend on the shoulder , who was also
tripping , and sitting in front of me , in the theatre ,
during the head spinning demon scene...

He screamed like a little girl...:bigredgri

Me...I loved the experience...but yeah...I'm a little strange...

I love shadow...look at my name...Blackwolf...:thumbsup:

Spica
February 3rd, 2010, 07:51 PM
I'd be curious to see how you respond to The Diary of a Broken Soul (http://www.alchemywebsite.com/tarot/art_tarot18.html) deck, because the aversion to the imagery of the Thoth deck (and your conclusion that it represents the Shadow overtly) does suggest that you may have issues with the Shadow as a concept, if not your own. And I don't mean that in a bad way.

I also have to say that it's a touchy idea to suggest that you're getting vibes based upon your psychic sensitivity, because it makes some very poor impressions. On one hand, there can be an implication of superiority on one's own part and on the other hand, that one is so overly-sensitive that dots of ink on pasteboard makes them squicky.

That sort of word-use is a peeve of mine, and I don't mean my comments to be taken personally. I just think folks need to move away from that thinking.

The images are very lusty and sexual in my eyes. And no, I don't get an unbalanced 'feel' from them. Obviously the maker of the deck likes dark imagery and uses it to convey spiritual ideas/symbols. No problem there for me. Perhaps this is difficult for some to believe since my siggie happens to be pink? ;) "Looks" can be deceiving, you know?

I now feel like I have to prove myself and the fact that I don't have shadow-problems, which is making me a bit pissed off to be honest. The shadow is always there and it's purpose is to cause problems and states of fear for the person to grow. So, when I say that I don't have "shadow-problems", it doesn't mean that I have no fears and issues, it just means that Im aware of them and I am fixing them, which makes me shadow-self aware. And considering that I see Lucifer and Lilith as my deities, I can assure you that I don't have "issues" with my Shadow. I still think my pink siggie is causing some people to not take me seriously on this matter. :giggle:


"A touchy idea to suggest that you're getting vibes based upon your psychic sensitivity"I thought tarot cards were used for the purpose of getting psychic impressions/vibes? Well, the vibes to me are unbalanced. Not evil, just unbalanced. The deck mentioned by you does not have that. They seem to have been created in a "clear" headspace. (At least the images Im seeing...) Since Frieda did a lot of the images when it was WW2, you can be 100% sure that she transferred her own fears and worries in to the images. All musicians/painters etc do it too, but I FEEL IT much more strongly in magical items.

As an example: I once bought a handmade pendulum from an ebay seller. I got the pendulum and cleansed it with sage, like usual. Then when I started to use it...I got a strong impressions of anger. I thought it was my "own", so I ignored it. Next day; anger. I still felt that it was my own, since I feel everything much more strongly when Im falling in to a trance, so I just ignored the feeling again. On the third day I wasn't so sure it was me anymore and decided to stop using the pendulum. Week and ANOTHER cleansing later, same thing. I got angry when using it. So, since I wanted to find out what was going on, I decided to send a message to the seller and ask her in what conditions she had made the item in. She replied that in normal, no smoking house...The basic stuff. I refrased myself and asked: (Stuff left out) "Did you happen to be angry while making the pendulum? I have no intentions of returning the item, so don't worry about it." She then replied to me two days later saying that she had in fact made a BATCH of different pendulums on the week her boyfriend had left her.

So after 2 cleansings, I still felt the anger of this woman in MY pendulum. So yes, Im sensitive and it's not enjoyable.

Sparkles
February 3rd, 2010, 11:56 PM
Crowley made that deck as a part of his spiritual training.

Crowley was not a fluffy-bunny kind of guy. Some say that he was a bigot, and some say that he looked down on women. Perhaps he was frustrated with Victorian women, many of whom did not make use of their potential as this was not culturally accepted at the time. But if you read some of his writings regarding the spiritual path he created (Thelema), you will see that Crowley gave equally important roles to both men and women. He was also a drug addict; in fact, Crowley's physician died within a day of Crowley's death, and some say that Crowley put a curse on his doc because his doc would not give him the opiate Crowley was addicted to.

Remember, Crowley was an occultist and a hedonist during a time when propriety was very important. Perhaps if he was alive now, he would be seen as a strange old "hippie" who was really out there, but not as evil as he was judged "back in the day." He was actually an incredible man; besides creating Thelema, he was a world class mountaineer, a chess master, a painter, a poet, a sportsman, a novelist, a critic and a theatrical producer. He introduced America to Astrology. During WWII, Crowley provided Churchill with valuable information regarding the mind-set of Hitler, who was very much into the occult. It is said that Crowley recommended that Churchill use the "V for Victory" sign as much as possible in photos, because that sign represents a symbol which is capable of defeating the energies of the swastika (which Hitler chose because of its occult symbolism). He was good friends with Ian Fleming, the man who invented James Bond.

His Thoth Tarot is incredible. But in order to work with the detailed and intricate images on his cards, especially the Major Arcana, you need to at least have some understanding of the Qabala, the Hebrew alphabet, astrology and the Egyptian Pantheon and its symbolism. I have found that these extra efforts necessary to work with the Thoth Tarot are very much worth it.

Evil? Not in my eyes. Mysterious, occult, and to some, an "unknown" that is frightening? Yes. But I think that at least some of his persona was cultivated to keep the faint of heart from bothering him. Even now, he has a lot to teach us all, in his own inimitable way. The only thing you need to fear about learning from him is that you will achieve a new and different way of seeing the world.

S

EntwinedScylla
February 5th, 2010, 12:52 AM
The images are very lusty and sexual in my eyes. And no, I don't get an unbalanced 'feel' from them. Obviously the maker of the deck likes dark imagery and uses it to convey spiritual ideas/symbols. No problem there for me.

That sort of answers part of what I wasn't getting from your posts. Might the difference in approaches (forthright and up front in the Diary deck, versus insinuating and insisting in The Thoth deck) be part of the difference in perception?


Perhaps this is difficult for some to believe since my siggie happens to be pink? ;) "Looks" can be deceiving, you know?


I actually don't pay any attention to poster's icons/signatures if they're much bigger than a postage stamp, given that so many folks have those ticker things that go on for miles.


Frieda did a lot of the images when it was WW2, you can be 100% sure that she transferred her own fears and worries in to the images. All musicians/painters etc do it too, but I FEEL IT much more strongly in magical items.

The problem I'm having in grokking your explanation and pendulum example is with the essential difference in contact. You aren't handling the actual, physical, artwork of Lady Freida (I.e. your not touching the physical media paintings). You're handling a combination of dot-matrix ink, pasteboard, plastic and binders which were printed, cut, processed, packaged and assembled by machine.

That's the problem I've always had with people asserting (for example) that the Necronomicon, the Parker Bros. Ouija, or the Thoth deck are "bad"/ have badness on them. I've always attributed that to one's own -whatever- being put upon the object or item, especially in the case of the Necronomicon.

I can understand getting a sense of imbalance from the art, in a visual way, but I cannot understand getting a psychic impression which borders on psychometric when there was no essential contact with the 'source'. Though, that would get into how disparate the creation and replicas thereof are when speaking of magickal objects, and that's probably WAY beyond the scope of this particular thread.

I'm not arguing it, by any means, I'm asking questions in an attempt to clarify some points on the matter, especially a matter as persistent as the Thoth deck.

thought_on_a_wind
February 5th, 2010, 11:09 PM
Okay, just wanted to throw this in here since there are actual observations about the actual feeling and connection with the deck. The imagery did not bother me, whether darker or lighter, the better the artwork in a tarot deck the more I enjoy it (so, if anyone know of a Salvador Dali deck, let me know... I'd never get a reading wrong) as long as it connects, the artwork of the Thoth, did connect with me. It spoke volumes and had very surrealist elements which I appreciated.

I connect with decks, when teaching anyone the art, I walk through a bookstore with them and watch them until they feel a pull, or draw. Usually it's a glance, and then changing from a glance into a gaze, so forth and so on... The connection is what I look for as it seems easier to intuit the cards. I sensed a lot of power in my friends Thoth, similar to the amount of power I felt when I was pulled to my own Legacy of The Divine deck. He's excellent with it, very concise... though I usually stray away from a reading from him because sometimes he just a little too concise for my liking.

I could use the Thoth deck, but the connection is strained at best. Not to say that it's evil, as I established earlier in the thread, but more, the teachings of Aliester Crowley, though sometimes thought invocative, and the infusions of those principles into the deck sort of do not appeal to me, nor the energies I feel from the deck. As far as evil is concerned, I think the Sun is evil, I've a rather light complexion and having light blue eyes have enough problems in bright light anyway, but that doesn't make me think that the sun is out to kill me (well... I don't think it's out to kill me when I'm not sunburnt to a red lobster crisp), and can discern that it's something I really don't like, and not truly evil... it just is...

To reiterate what I said earlier, but just a tad more in depth if I could, the teacher should have really sat down and reevaluated their teaching standards. Just because I don't like the sun doesn't mean the sun is evil... just because the Thoth deck posesses certain properties doesn't mean it's evil.

Evil be a perception and a tag most of the time. Used to control those around us, and others just as warning of something that may be detrimental to development. Other times it's an alternate title for Unknown.

Shawn Blackwolf
February 5th, 2010, 11:19 PM
All perspective...

In my perception , lusty , and sexual , and
embodied in earth plane , and ego , are very
good things...


The images are very lusty and sexual in my eyes.

thought_on_a_wind
February 6th, 2010, 12:09 AM
All perspective...

In my perception , lusty , and sexual , and
embodied in earth plane , and ego , are very
good things...
I'd have to concur... and of course, were there no lust, or sexual... we wouldn't be here now would we?

Twinkle
February 6th, 2010, 01:48 PM
I haven't read through all seven pages of this thread, so if I've repeated something, I apologize in advance.

The notion that a mass produced set of Tarot Cards being *evil* is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

The only way I could even fathom such a thing is if one channeled through the cards and then brought forth something malevolent...but even then, it's not the *cards* that did it.

Psh.

Anubisa
February 6th, 2010, 01:57 PM
That's interesting, but how is a tarot deck evil? It's a tool. I haven't seen the Thoth Deck, but I can't understand how it would be evil. People are just weird.

1111
February 6th, 2010, 11:11 PM
Blunt.

So if you think blunt is evil......:hahugh:

aranarose
February 7th, 2010, 01:23 PM
Blunt.

So if you think blunt is evil......:hahugh:

Yep.
I call the Thoth my ass-kicker deck. If I want a blunt, to the point, no-holds-barred reading that will leave me with no wishy-washiness and no questioning as to the meaning, that's the deck I grab.

It will tell you the truth. It will not sugar coat. It will give you no chance of saying, "Well, maybe it means..." And it might make you cry...

But it's not evil.

WillowPhoenix
February 7th, 2010, 01:35 PM
I haven't really been drawn to tarot. I am more drawn to runes, but this thread has sparked an interest in tarot and especially this deck. IMO a tarot deck or runes or oujia board are not inherently evil. A person gives these items such power by how they use them or by thinking of them as evil.

Corvis Canis Latrans
February 7th, 2010, 01:41 PM
I think it's OP now, but if you want a dark take on the Thoth, check out Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal.

The trumps mimic Crowley/Harris for the most part, but the minors differ in....interesting ways.

http://taroteca.multiply.com/photos/album/337/Liber_T_Stars_Eternal

Whether I follow through or not in the long run is a good question, but in the short term at least this thread has inspired me to endeavor to study the Thoth and some of its derivatives (Liber T deck and the VIA Tarot) more closely as a comparative study. Thoth has been mainly an intuitive deck for me, but I've always thought it deserves more careful study.

Leviivel
February 17th, 2010, 02:43 AM
Only those completely ignorant of Crowley, Thelema the OTO, etc would say something like that and if they fancy themselves a practitioner of Magick they need to crack some books before bandying about the term evil so ignorantly.

Anybody who has studied Crowley knows that some of his practices could be considered questionable to many but they would also know that he was very misunderstood and often typecast as "evil" by know-nothings who wander blindly in the darkness.

The Thoth deck is based upon the Rider-Waite deck, it is a contemporary interpretation with plenty of Crowleyian flavor because he did influence its outcome.

1111
February 18th, 2010, 05:37 PM
Yep.
I call the Thoth my ass-kicker deck. If I want a blunt, to the point, no-holds-barred reading that will leave me with no wishy-washiness and no questioning as to the meaning, that's the deck I grab.

It will tell you the truth. It will not sugar coat. It will give you no chance of saying, "Well, maybe it means..." And it might make you cry...

But it's not evil.

:lol: ;)

Alamaris
January 17th, 2011, 01:54 PM
I had a friend over to the house one time, and she gave one of my decks the hairy eyeball and said, "Aren't those things evil?" So I plucked a book off the shelf, gave it to her, and asked if she thought the book was evil. She said no. I said, "Of course not. It's a mass produced thing, a combination of glue, paper, and ink. Which is exactly what a deck of playing cards are -- or a tarot deck."

The Thoth deck, as others have said, is brilliant and blunt, but it's only "powerful" in the sense that it isn't a Hello Kitty deck. The creators of the deck, Harris and Crowley, spent (if I recall) about five years creating it from the ground up, and every little symbol has a very important meaning. But the physical deck, mass produced cardstock and ink, isn't powerful or evil or what have you unless you're convinced that it is. I've seen people convince themselves that a particular person is evil just because they're bad at social interaction, or look shady, or dress strangely. The Thoth deck is like the grouchy-looking goth who buys an extra large coffee from your cafe every morning -- he may look strange and even a little scary, but he's got a PhD in religious studies and an IQ of 180.

I'm really glad to see more people using the Thoth, because it's a very deep and challenging deck, and ultimately a marvelously rewarding one, but I'll be even happier when I no longer hear people like that instructor spouting ignorant opinions-as-fact about inanimate objects. :smileroll

Micheal
January 17th, 2011, 03:50 PM
Interesting thread. I must say, that Crowley did not base his Thoth deck off of the Rider Waite. If anything, they're both centred around the Golden Dawn model, as when one became a 5th degree initiate of the Golden Dawn, they were required to paint their own tarot deck inspired by the deck lent to them by another member. Crowley, however, revealed the secrets Waite didn't by keeping his oath, and further chose it to represent the Book of the Law.(It's no secret that Crowley butted head with A.EcWaite too)

The Thoth deck is brilliant because it reveals the GD "blinds", and Crowley also modified it to adapt with the New Aeon. The incorporation of the Qabalah, Gematria, the Hebrew Alphabet, Astrology, e.t.c is none like most other decks. Crowley even offered to remain anonymous, potentially giving all credit to Harris(who wouldn't have minded remaining anonymous herself), and also insisted he would ask for no money in order to get it published. His only request was that it should not be published without his book, and Crowley's Book of Thoth, along with Lon Milo Duquette's Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot, that I've seen referenced throughout this thread, are books that I would highly recommend to anyone possessing the Thoth Tarot that hasn't already obtained them.

Back to the topic, we've distinguished it's ridiculous to believe a deck "evil," but it is common for people to have issues with the Thoth. The allegory and imagery can appear very bizarre to those unfamiliar. A lot of people also have difficulty with the style of the art work, and the colours, however they are all intended with a specific purpose. The Hermetic Rosy Cross isn't featured on the back of a lot of decks for no reason.

occultish
January 17th, 2011, 06:08 PM
NO, it is not evil.

People will label anything Crowley-related as "evil"... which is nonsense.

IntellectualSlime
November 4th, 2011, 05:03 AM
I won't bother to reiterate what others have said on the topic of evil vs. not evil, because I think the point has been brought home.

I find the deck useful because it suits my personality very well. It was the first Tarot I ever had contact with, and left a lasting impression upon me. I drew one card from that deck, and it resonated in every experience I had in the upcoming year. That feeling of power and knowledge never really left.

That said, this deck has a definitive personality. It doesn't play. You take it out to work, and it works. That being true, it can also be a ridiculous queen, especially if you aren't focusing or are asking flippant questions. It also has a tendency to play on the sympathies of the querent. If a person comes into a reading with a negative attitude, the cards will not hesitate to blow everything out of proportion. It isn't going to waste time in trying to convince a habitual naysayer that the world is looking up. They asked for what would happen in their world, and it told them, in tones they could understand. Nothing positive is going to come out of their attitude to begin with, and so why would it tell them differently?

In continuing with the informational part of the thread, I have both the Book of Thoth and DuQuettes book, as well as one called The Thoth Companion, by Michael Osiris Snuffin. He isn't as thorough with the ideology of the OTO (for that, I recommend DuQuette) but he does go through the symbolism of each card individually, along with its attributions according to the path of the Tree of Life that it represents. I am in the midst of this book, but so far it is very thorough and has taught me a great deal that I had originally missed, coming in with an incomplete grounding in the pertinent symbols and ideology.

CosmicTree
November 5th, 2011, 11:33 AM
Very useful information, IntellectualSlime. One of the first books I used about the Tarot contained pictures from the Marsailles and Thoth decks - two very different decks, for sure. Since then I have been interested in the Thoth deck because of its 'wild' imagery.

IntellectualSlime
January 8th, 2012, 03:45 AM
Very useful information, IntellectualSlime. One of the first books I used about the Tarot contained pictures from the Marsailles and Thoth decks - two very different decks, for sure. Since then I have been interested in the Thoth deck because of its 'wild' imagery.

The Marsailles and the Thoth? Were they TRYING to break your brain?

The color, the imagery, and the original experience I had with the Thoth deck pulled me in. The colors of the images are pulled from the Golden Dawn color attribution scale, which I am interested in learning more about. DuQuette deals with the color attributions better than Snuffin does. He explains that (in the spiritual opinion of his path) the consciousness of the supreme deity is pure light, which is refracted through the prism of Yod He Vau He (the four Hebrew letters attributed to the fourfold omnipotence of the supreme being, often spelled YHVH or pronounced Jehovah) into the four color scales. These are King, Queen, Prince, and Princess, and each is attributed independently to one of the four Qabalistic worlds. Using this scale and her correspondence with Crowley, Lady Harris developed her palette for the cards. Some of them are fantastically beautiful, others are downright nauseating, but every card has a great feeling of rightness that is difficult to explain. This is obviously a very short explanation of something very complex, so I am sure that I have omitted elements somewhere, and apologize in advance.

In imagery, some of the cards are close to the Golden Dawn Book T model, and some of them are wildly different, but still appropriate to the meanings. A similar deck is the Tarot of the Stars Eternal, published by Lo Scarabeo. The art springboards off of Book T and the Thoth, but the imagery of the deck focuses more on the stars attributed to the degrees of the zodiac, or decans, that the cards are affiliated with. I haven't worked with it very much yet, but it has a similar feel with less of the raw edge of the Thoth. I would like to learn more about the decans and the star attributions. I have very little knowledge of the zodiac (some New Ager I am!), but am working to improve upon myself, and as I do there are mysteries about both decks that resolve themselves. Very fascinating.

Louisvillian
January 8th, 2012, 06:02 PM
The Thoth deck is not evil. It's creator, Alistair Crowley is considered by many to have been a magic practitioner of debatable morals and yes, some people would say he felt perfectly at home dwelling on the Dark Side of magic, but this doesn't mean the deck itself is evil.
I wouldn't even go as far as saying Crowley had questionable morals. He was just an attention whore and hilariously narcissistic. But that's really it. He wasn't an awful person. Just has a reputation of being a weirdo and a wicked man because of his hedonistic lifestyle and his role in Modern Occultism.

I don't know enough about Tarot to comment on the deck, though. I've just researched a bit about Crowley himself. :)