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fallingwater
February 14th, 2005, 08:00 PM
My Question;

I found this site stating that Loki came from the Fire Elemental Group. So were there 3 groups altogether; the aesir, the vanir and the elementals??? And if so does anyone know where I can learn more about the Norse, (Anglo saxon) elementals???

Here's part of the description of LOKI i found:


Loki, the Trickster, challenges the structure and order of the Gods, but is necessary in bringing about needed change. He is also known as the god of Fire. Neither an Aesir or a Vanir, he is of the race of Ettins (Elementals) and thus possesses some daemonic qualities.

http://www.wizardrealm.com/norse/gods.html

Will i really be able to incorporate my passion for elementals into my Norse studies in a Norse way not a Greek way???

Zophael
February 14th, 2005, 08:47 PM
No, that source is incorrect. Loki is definitely one of the Aesir.
His second wife was a giant and he had some other dealings with the frost giants of Jotunheim.

Never heard of Loki being associated with Ettins.
The giants were born of melted ice and weren't earth elementals anyway. The Aesir were also children of the giants (as the Greek god were of titans).
I've never heard of elemental associations for the major Nordic races.

Mjollnir
February 14th, 2005, 09:12 PM
No, that source is incorrect. Loki is definitely one of the Aesir.
His second wife was a giant and he had some other dealings with the frost giants of Jotunheim.

Never heard of Loki being associated with Ettins.
The giants were born of melted ice and weren't earth elementals anyway. The Aesir were also children of the giants (as the Greek god were of titans).
I've never heard of elemental associations for the major Nordic races.



Loki is a jotun but regarded as one of the Aesir, possibly to Odin being his blood brother but his mother Laufey was a giant as well as his father Farbauti.

Mjollnir
February 14th, 2005, 09:14 PM
There are different races of giants, frost giants, fire giants...Surt being the foremost...and I have to find the reference but I remember rock giants as well.

fallingwater
February 14th, 2005, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zophael
No, that source is incorrect. Loki is definitely one of the Aesir.
His second wife was a giant and he had some other dealings with the frost giants of Jotunheim.

Never heard of Loki being associated with Ettins.
The giants were born of melted ice and weren't earth elementals anyway. The Aesir were also children of the giants (as the Greek god were of titans).
I've never heard of elemental associations for the major Nordic races.




Loki is a jotun but regarded as one of the Aesir, possibly to Odin being his blood brother but his mother Laufey was a giant as well as his father Farbaut

There are different races of giants, frost giants, fire giants...Surt being the foremost...and I have to find the reference but I remember rock giants as well.[QUOTE=Mjollnir]

So, let me get this straight...
Loki was born from 2 giants; Laufey and Farbaut.
Giants had different races such as frost, fire, and rock...perhaps water and air?
So perhaps Loki's parent's were Fire Giants making him a Fire type of God ?

Could this be so?
Then what or who is an ettin?

fallingwater
February 14th, 2005, 10:25 PM
So, let me get this straight...
Loki was born from 2 giants; Laufey and Farbaut.
Giants had different races such as frost, fire, and rock...perhaps water and air?
So perhaps Loki's parent's were Fire Giants making him a Fire type of God ?

Could this be so?
Then what or who is an ettin?

Zophael
February 14th, 2005, 10:55 PM
Definition:

\Et"tin\, n. [SA. eten, eoten, orig., gluttonous, fr. etan
to eat.]
A giant. [Obs.] --Beau. & Fl.


no, no water or air giants in Norse mythology.

Mjollnir
February 14th, 2005, 10:57 PM
So, let me get this straight...
Loki was born from 2 giants; Laufey and Farbaut.
Giants had different races such as frost, fire, and rock...perhaps water and air?
So perhaps Loki's parent's were Fire Giants making him a Fire type of God ?

Could this be so?
Then what or who is an ettin?


Giants came in forms, fire, frost and possibly if I remember correctly, rock...I have to check that...there is no mention of what kind of giants Loki's parents were though. Loki is associated with Fire, but that does not necessarily mean his parents were fire giants. Giants/etins/jotuns are all the same, just different words for them but I know there were no water or air. The giants represented the chaotic natural forces against the gods but that is not be confused or implied they were elemental.

happyheathenmom
February 14th, 2005, 10:57 PM
Here is a great site which I'm sure many have heard of: Asatru - u online beginners course for Asatru (http://www.asatru-u.org/)

Loki is regarded as more of a trickster God, not actually an Aesir. I have read he is more associated with fire (as fire can create, it can destroy). For whatever reason Odin swore a blood oath with Loki, and Thor often hangs out with him on their trips to Jotenheim, and Midgard. Loki usually does wicked things to the other Aesir (cuts off Sif's hair for one) and for his misdeeds the other Aesir force him to do things for them (making dwarves weave Sif a new head of hair from spun gold, and having the dwarves construct Frey a boat which he can carry in his pocket, but can travel on any surface and large enough to hold all the Aesir, among some of the things they forced him to do). I will have to look up a few more web sites, but Asatru-U is one of the best as it talks about Etins, Landvaettir, Wights and other things as well as many other topics.. it's a good place to start.

In Frith
HHmom

Mjollnir
February 14th, 2005, 10:59 PM
Loki usually does wicked things to the other Aesir (cuts off Sif's hair for one) and for his misdeeds the other Aesir force him to do things for them (making dwarves weave Sif a new head of hair from spun gold, and having the dwarves construct Frey a boat which he can carry in his pocket, but can travel on any surface and large enough to hold all the Aesir, among some of the things they forced him to do).


Loki wasnt forced to get those things for the gods but did so to ensure he didnt have his ass handed to him, a "making the peace" so to speak.

happyheathenmom
February 14th, 2005, 11:01 PM
no, no water or air giants in Norse mythology.

Ran and Aegir are giants, right? Please do correct me if I am wrong. Ran is a giantess of the sea who drags men's boats down to her watery home, and Aegir is a giant, Ran's husband, who makes sea-storms. Njord the Vanir calms Aegir's storms. Also, in Beowulf, Grendel's mother is a type of sea-giant whom Beowulf kills.

In frith
HHmom

Mjollnir
February 15th, 2005, 05:22 PM
Ran and Aegir are giants, right? Please do correct me if I am wrong. Ran is a giantess of the sea who drags men's boats down to her watery home, and Aegir is a giant, Ran's husband, who makes sea-storms. Njord the Vanir calms Aegir's storms. Also, in Beowulf, Grendel's mother is a type of sea-giant whom Beowulf kills.

In frith
HHmom


Aegir is a jotun, Ran is listed as an asynjur. I never heard anything about Njord "calming Aegirs storms" but I do know Aegir, Ran and Njord both were honored by those going on voyages.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/gods/aegir.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/gods/njordh.html

mothwench
February 15th, 2005, 05:30 PM
and I have to find the reference but I remember rock giants as well.
Ymir maybe? what about trolls?

and then (i think i asked this before on heathenry class, but i can't remember now, and in any case it fits well here) what is the differences between etins/jotuns, rieses and thurses?

Rick
February 15th, 2005, 06:35 PM
Ymir maybe? what about trolls?
Ymir is an ice giant (hehehe... Ymir is THE Ice Giant).

and then (i think i asked this before on heathenry class, but i can't remember now, and in any case it fits well here) what is the differences between etins/jotuns, rieses and thurses?
Linguistics

fallingwater
February 15th, 2005, 07:13 PM
[QUOTE=happyheathenmom] Ran is a giantess of the sea who drags men's boats down to her watery home, and Aegir is a giant, Ran's husband, who makes sea-storms. Njord the Vanir calms Aegir's storms. Also, in Beowulf, Grendel's mother is a type of sea-giant whom Beowulf kills. ]


I find this facinating. Where did you read this?

happyheathenmom
February 15th, 2005, 08:39 PM
In was in a book about Nordic myth I checked out of our local library. I'll have to get back there and find the title of it exactly. I copied nearly all the info in my personal Asatru Journal, but however not the title.. (well.. it was for personal use LOL I didn't think I'd ever need to remember the important things about the book ROFL)
Ah well.. I was wanted to check it out again anyway..
In Frith
HHmom

Mjollnir
February 15th, 2005, 10:58 PM
[QUOTE=happyheathenmom] Ran is a giantess of the sea who drags men's boats down to her watery home, and Aegir is a giant, Ran's husband, who makes sea-storms. Njord the Vanir calms Aegir's storms. Also, in Beowulf, Grendel's mother is a type of sea-giant whom Beowulf kills. ]


I find this facinating. Where did you read this?


In the re-review of lesson 4 there are articles posted on both Aegir and Njordh, Ran was Aegirs wife and as with Aegir, was often honored by those undertaking sea voyages to grant them safe passage and human sacrifices were often made to Aegir, usually prisoners.

Mjollnir
February 15th, 2005, 11:03 PM
Here is a pic of a Ran horn carved by a friend of ours. trust me when I tell you the pic does NOT do it justice, it is carved all the way around and from mouth to tip.

~Elise~
February 15th, 2005, 11:14 PM
Wow--how beautiful.

Elise

mothwench
February 18th, 2005, 08:13 PM
Ymir is an ice giant (hehehe... Ymir is THE Ice Giant).
...whose corpse became the earth. sooo... that could mean, that ice and earth are the same element, and that ice and rock/earth giants are the same.


Linguistics

okay. i'll guess that jotuns is from norway or iceland, rieses seems to be more continental because of the german "riesen". no idea about thurses though. any ideas?

edited to add: nice horn! :viking:

Rick
February 19th, 2005, 01:23 AM
I'm pretty sure thurs is Germanic, but don't have a reference handy. The similarity between etin/jotun (remember, the "J" is pronounced like a "Y") is probably regional dialect.

Um, Ymir "begat" all the types of Giants, I think... check out Voluspa...

Zophael
February 19th, 2005, 03:30 AM
ettin
an old word for "a giant," extinct since 16c., from O.E. eoten, from P.Gmc. *itunoz (cf. O.N. iotunn, Dan. jette).

source - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ettin

Zophael
February 19th, 2005, 03:38 AM
Y'all might find this interesting

http://www.thetroth.org/resources/ourtroth/etins.html

Mjollnir
February 19th, 2005, 11:42 AM
Um, Ymir "begat" all the types of Giants, I think... check out Voluspa...


Yup yup.

I also received my Thor horn the other day, as soon as I get a pic I will post it. :viking:

KellyP
February 21st, 2005, 01:37 AM
Um, Ymir "begat" all the types of Giants, I think... check out Voluspa...Here (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/rydberg/086.php) is an excellent section from Rydberg's Teutonic Mythology that discusses the origins of the giants.

Repaermirg
April 11th, 2011, 02:19 AM
To call the Jotnar elementals would be incorrect. They are the same type of beings (or very nearly) as the gods. They should really be compared more to tribes than separate "races" (hate to use that word) given the constant interbreeding. Also, if you look at Norse cosmology, "Ettins" seem to control a lot of the worlds: Jotunheim, Niflheim, Muspelheim, Hel. I would say that Jotunheim is the land of the stone-giants (the ones like trolls) and lore clearly states that Niflheim is home of frost-giants and Muspelheim of fire-giants. Hel is the world of the dead, but ruled by Loki's daughter by Jarnsaxa, a giant of uncertain lineage. Loki's parents, likewise, are never stated as being any particular type of giant, so you can't call him a fire-giant necessarily. Basically, the Aesir and Vanir are like the Cro-Magnon, and the Hrimthurs, Muspelsonnar, and Jotnar are like Neanderthals. The two are closely related, but constantly fighting and clearly divided (except where there's mixing.)

Aeon Flux
April 11th, 2011, 03:58 AM
To call the Jotnar elementals would be incorrect. They are the same type of beings (or very nearly) as the gods. They should really be compared more to tribes than separate "races" (hate to use that word) given the constant interbreeding. Also, if you look at Norse cosmology, "Ettins" seem to control a lot of the worlds: Jotunheim, Niflheim, Muspelheim, Hel. I would say that Jotunheim is the land of the stone-giants (the ones like trolls) and lore clearly states that Niflheim is home of frost-giants and Muspelheim of fire-giants. Hel is the world of the dead, but ruled by Loki's daughter by Jarnsaxa, a giant of uncertain lineage. Loki's parents, likewise, are never stated as being any particular type of giant, so you can't call him a fire-giant necessarily. Basically, the Aesir and Vanir are like the Cro-Magnon, and the Hrimthurs, Muspelsonnar, and Jotnar are like Neanderthals. The two are closely related, but constantly fighting and clearly divided (except where there's mixing.)

Järnsaxa was the mother of Thors son Magne/Magni. The daughter of Loki that rules over Hel/Helheim is Hel. Hel is situated in Niflheim, at the edge of Hvergelmir, unless I am mistaken.

But yeah, you have the part about who rules in Hel very wrong. Just thought I would point that out.