Karma

[Illuminatus]

What's up with it?????

I don't buy it.... but can a person be born with a karmic "debt"?

What about a nation, can they have a karmic defecit/surpluss?

Family maybe?

- Ill

[loopy]

I've been asking myself the same things lately... I don't remember who I was in my past lives, is it really fair for me to be held responsible for what I did then?

I think karma makes sense if you think of it not as a "paying for what you did in a past life" thing, but rather as a lifelong lesson, an awakening of some sort.

bah. I don't know. I'm still a little confused on the subject myself.

I don't think groups or nations as a whole have this huge karmic rep to live down. I think that in a large group of people, each has his own karmic debt stuff going on. So I guess if they're all living in the same vicinity, and they all have the same karma, then there could be an abundance of that energy... hmm.

[Xander67]

*pays attention,

[Myst]

Originally posted by loopy
I think karma makes sense if you think of it not as a "paying for what you did in a past life" thing, but rather as a lifelong lesson, an awakening of some sort.

Some people think of it as payback too, but in my mind even if you think you're having a bad time it's a lesson for you, and that you are given lessons to learn from, not payback for past "mistakes". :)

[loopy]

Right. I agree.


:)

[Earth Shadow~]

We all have a path. Each one of us has lessons to learn in life. This is true whether or not you believe this to be the only life or if you have many lives.

The way you deal with tragedy or a given situation, decides whether or not you will move forward or stay still without growth.

When you purposely harm another, you take a step back.

Bad things happen to everyone, you are not punsihed for your past lives, you are tested and made stronger through pain. Most often we remember experiences better when pain is present.

I clipped what's below from another site. I wrote it a few weeks ago. I think it explains best what I mean regarding Karma.

It involves a tarot card....but I think that it's understandable even if you don't work with Tarot.


The Tower Card: It is the picture of a tower, sometimes there is a bolt of lightning striking from the inside of it, other times it's just crumbling or there's an explosion, it depends on the deck. There are people jumping or falling from the tower. (Remind you of anything?)

We experience it all the time. It does mean change and normally that change comes in a forceful, destructive way. The reason why this card is a good one is because it allows growth. When there is no room for growth there must be room made. Hence, the destruction.

Imagine a fish tank that hasn't been cleaned in a while. If you run something accross the bottom then all this shi* comes up. It's like someone kicking up all the stuff that has settled to the bottom.

When the tower works on one person, it makes them think about their past. It kicks up emotions and habits, good and bad.

Ultimately if the Tower is appreciated for it's purpose, it gives you a chance to look at yourself, and sort through all the crap that you have collected over the years. You can decide what you want to keep and what you want to get rid of.

On a massive scale......the world trade center, full of money and people.... what is most important in our life? What should be most important? Does it make us think? Do we consider the lives or the money lost? How does this change us as individuals? How does this change us as a whole?

Have you done alot of thinking about what is imortant in your life since this happened?

What does the world trade center truly represent?

The world trade center was the tower card in action in my opinion. Now, whether we choose to sort through it, is up to us. But I think we'll just keep it all, including the crap and remain the same.

That saddens me. Money is like America's curse. We attach ourselves to it feircely. As a nation, it's one of the most important things. We stole this country and built it with blood and suffering. What we have gained has never really been rightfully ours to begin with.

This place was stolen, and then those with the control had the audacity to say who can "come in". What do we expect with such a history?

Perhaps subconsciously, we make money so important because we know sooner or later we'll lose what was never really ours to begin with.

Earth Shadow~

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
I don't buy it.... but can a person be born with a karmic "debt"?

Depends on your personal beliefs, as well as the beliefs of your particular tradition. Mine, for example, doesn't allow for the carry-over from incarnation to incarnation of so-called Karmic "debt", because we subscribe to the transmigration theory, for one thing. What goes around comes around, but only in this lifetime.

[Twilight]

earth shadow,

I don't know if i speak for the majority here, but i have a very hard time making a karmic connection between the destruction of the wtc and... well, anything!... i do see how you make the tower card connection though, that makes some sense.. but isn't the tower card more about a sheltered, forboding power rather than growth?

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Twilight
but isn't the tower card more about a sheltered, forboding power rather than growth?

Depends on your interpretation. To some, it's shocking, sudden, traumatic change.

[Xander67]

Did someone say, Shocking? change?

hmmmm sounds like Pluto at work if you ask me :):rolleyes:

[Earth Shadow~]

You're right Twilight (hey I rymed). :D

Interpertation is everything.

In my personal experience, whenever I've had the Tower Card shown to me in a reading by someone else or I get the card myself I think....Oh sh*t...I'm in trouble now. :)

However, after that terrible thing has happened, wonderful events follow.

I grow as a person, aquiring new thoughts and feelings. I meet new people that enrich my life. I learn new skills.

Sh*t, it took leaving an abuse boyfriend before I embraced the Divine.

I look back at the time that I experienced The Tower and I think, that actually did some good. It shook me up quite a bit but had it not happened I would have never experienced what I am right now.

The week of the disaster I was very pessimistic as to how people would take the tragedy. Thinking it's the Tower myself, I wasn't sure that any would take it as that and do any type of growing.

I have been pleasantly surprised. The effort that I have seen in people young and old to come together amazes me.

There was a time when people cared about others a whole lot more.

I remember when I was a kid, I could get in trouble by any of the neighbors because everyone knew eachother and watched out for the children.

It kind of reminds me of that. Everyone, complete strangers coming together. People donating blood in record numbers. White candles glowing inside of windows.

I'm way more positive about this now, I think it just hit me this morning. :)

Anyways, what happened was terrible and I hate to think about all those who suffered. I am also thankful for their sacrafice and know that they served a greater purpose than I can understand.

But the love that has emerged (even the political bickering on this site is from the heart) shows a level of caring for more than just ourselves.

The Tower sucks but look at the change it brings.

Love and light,

Earth Shadow~

[Danustouch]

I usually interpret the tower card to mean sudden upheaval, and as Mairwen said...shocking change :)

[Shadowulfe]

In my opinion Karma doesn't Pass from lifetime to lifetime......I see Karma as a "boundry" so to speak to keep people in check. "An it harm none, do as thou will" As long as you do good...good will come back to you....as long as you do bad, bad will come back and you stay miserable. simple as that!

[Illuminatus]

Why is the tower card bad? Change could be good or it could also be bad, so I thought. Even change on a huge scale, though it usually has at least a few bad aspects to it.

[Xander67]

well ive learned that Karma always payer her bills, but the sad part is, she pays them when she wants to , and that is the scary part that makes ppl think twice before "running up a karmic debt"

[Danustouch]

I think it's probably much cheaper to pay off your karmic debt than your Miss Cleo Telephone Psychic Debt, though ;) ;) ;)

Not that I'd know from personal experience :)

[Shadowulfe]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
Why is the tower card bad? Change could be good or it could also be bad, so I thought. Even change on a huge scale, though it usually has at least a few bad aspects to it.
The Tower card isn't necessarily a bad card....it all depends on what cards are around it in the reading from what i understand illuminatus. if a card like the High Priestess or Strength was around it, it would be good...but if you had the ten of swords by it...then it could be bad.

[talamh]

Thinking of karma.... and American forign policy for the past 50 years..... it could be argued that the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11 were karma in action.... that a country reaps what it sows.... in the same way that individuals must live with the consequences of what they do.....

And innocent people... well.... the people elected the governments......

Did individuals "deserve" Sept 11? i don't think so.... but karma paints with a broad brush sometimes .... and sometimes it doesn't. Who can make any sense out of it arguing from the specific?

Maybe it's only supposed to make sense in hindsight...... bb talamh

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
Interesting discussion!
In my deck,The Witches' Tarot,The Tower does look like it's in flames.So I see what you mean.For me,it's always meant illumination...eventually.Like the veneer is ripped away,which can be painful.But we see clearer after the pain.It leads us to see things we hadn't noticed before they bit us on the behind.
I think we learn lessons in each life,and part of the lessons we need to learn are defined by our karma.
Peace and Love
Rain BrightStar

[Myst]

Both decks I have have a Tower that is in flames with pieces of it crumbling off etc. Some people think changes are bad no matter what, but in reality change is never a bad thing. Just sometimes it's hard to deal with :)

[Mythrel]

I use the Dragon Tarot deck...he is the discription and the divinatory meanings of this card in my deck....

The Tower
Two black chaos dragons curl around a disintegrating stone tower. Their claws are tearing at the tower, and they breathe fire. The tower (in this instance, symbolic of the overblown human ego, vaunting pride, and refusal to take action on a circumstance) is being ripped apart by chaotic conditions created by imbalances in physical life and spiritual growth. Pieces of the tower are falling; other pieces litter the rocky ground. What was once thought to be of great importance is now destroyed. The dark sky is filled with storms, and lightning flashes. There is always spiritual light in the midst of unpleasant lessons if one will change perspective and look for it. Half-formed images of other dragons can barely be seen diving in and out of the storm clouds. Symbolic of primordial energy, these half-seen dragons can be coaxed into positive formation through effort, willpower, and looking at the truth.

Divinatory Meaning
You witness or experience a shocking event that leaves you changed. Potential catastrophe is near; be prepared. Your life is complicated by discord in a relationship or the family. Unforseen setbacks bring despondency and a period of frustration. Your dreams my disintegrate into ashes.


My thinking on this is that major change is coming, be it good or bad. If you take the time to do a bit of intospection you may find that current thinking and dreams may not be right for you, and if you continue in your current course of action you will surely see long periods of frustration and discord in your life. But with some thinking and planning it is just a signal that things need to change!!!

that's my input on this one...
Mythrel

[Firestorm]

i remember sitting down when i was small listening to my Gram telling me stories of princesses of many lands, good witches
(& bad ones), and i would wonder and wander off (in my mind) far too many times, but her answers to my questions were always the same:

For every one on the earth, there is a mate - a kindred spirit-half looking for its opposite half ... until the halves find each other, they are incomplete and will return again until each will be whole.

So, if that is not karma, i dont know what is -- but my wife strongly believes it was Fate that brought her and i to-gether.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Firestorm
For every one on the earth, there is a mate - a kindred spirit-half looking for its opposite half ... until the halves find each other, they are incomplete and will return again until each will be whole.

So, if that is not karma, i dont know what is -- but my wife strongly believes it was Fate that brought her and i to-gether.

You are absolutly correct. You do not know what karma is. It has nothing to do with Fate. Different thing, that. Maybe a good topic for a new thread though... hm.. (wheels turning) hey wheels turning is kind of karmic though... hm... what was I dong again?

[Lady Firestorm]

I am new to this Community and have not had much experience with Wicca except what my daughter and husband have been teaching me.

It is my understanding from what was previously posted that Fate and Karma are 2 different things but, people interpret words and their meanings differently. If you wanted to get technical, when you look up the two words in a Thesaurus the results for both Karma and Fate are basically the same. Karma: chance, fate, destiny, providence, etc. Fate: destiny, fortune, chance, providence, etc.

Firestorm and Illuminatus have different ideas of what the meanings of these words are. Yet neither are incorrect because it is how they perceive and believe the meaning to be.

I am Firestorm's wife and it is I who believe it was fate or karma (whatever word you wish to use) that brought him and I together.

What does it matter what word we use as long as we believe in the meaning.