The Chalice

[GoddessofWisdom]

The chalice (also known as the sacred cup or goblet) represents the element of air, and is used on the altar during magickal rituals and Sabbats as a container for concecrated water or wine.
The sacred chalice is traditionally made of silver, and decorated with various magickal symbols; however, many modern Witches use chalices made of brass, pewter, or even crystal.

[Twilight Garden]

Not sure I understand this thread. For me the "sacred cup" represents different things, usually not air. Sometimes abundance, sometimes feminine energy, sometimes emotion, sometimes...etc... I thought in some traditions they were originally made of clay. Kinda confused. :confused:

[Myst]

Actually depends on who you ask. As GoW said, traditionally they're made out of silver but these days they are made of anything.

In my practices it is associated with Water - thus emotions, femininity, spirituality, mysteries, and movement, as well as the womb of the Goddess.

[Emy]

well, I am somewhat confused as well... and for me the chalice also stands for the element of water.... :)

Blessings

[Myst]

Don't be confused guys. Just think of it as different ways of practicing. Like for me the chalice represents water because it holds water, and since water to me is associated especially with the Goddess then to me the chalice represents femininity. Since I think of the Goddess as mysterious and spiritual then I connect that with the chalice too.

But everyone has their own reasons for why tools work the way they do.

For instance I think of the wand as air and the sword or athame with fire, but some people feel the opposite. We all just have our own ways :)

[MystyPines]

Hello!

For me, the chalice represents the element of Water and the womb of the Goddess. :D :D

[Danustouch]

Me too. The chalice to me symbolizes the womb of the goddess..Rebirth, Abundance, and Water. Wand is Air for me, Athame is Fire, and Pentacle (disk) Earth. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who associates wands with air. My hubby can't understand that association...he thinks of it as fire....and every time I do a tarot reading for him, he gets all confused about it.

[loopy]

The chalice to me symbolizes water, and moreso, earth holding water. I don't necessarily see it as a womb, but it does remind me of the Moon, Goddess, feminine nature.

And I'm with ya on the Air/Wands, Fire/Athame associations, Danus. I was really surprised when I first learned that it was not the traditional way of looking at it.

[MystyPines]

Posted by Danustouch:

Me too. The chalice to me symbolizes the womb of the goddess..Rebirth, Abundance, and Water. Wand is Air for me, Athame is Fire, and Pentacle (disk) Earth....

_________________________

Me too! Danustouch! I guess I associate the athame as fire instead of air, because I find it in my mind is more commanding, powerful, aggressive, strong like the element of fire.

[Danustouch]

I associate athame with fire, because of it's "blade" property. We don't associate wands with war, or destruction, or pain. I associate fire, those aggressive/destructive/regenerative properties of it, to athame, because it is a blade...i don't know if that makes any sense.

Wands is a Mental thing, and an air representative to me, because A)you HOLD your wand in the air, B)when I think of wand, I think of a shorter version of Merlins' staff..or something like that. Another association in my mind, would be one of those little batons teachers used in school, to "point" to differen't things on a map, or what have you. And Oddly enough, a Choral Directers.."baton". Those are all "Mental" things to me, things I associate with wisdom.

Anyway..it's odd how these symbols mean something differen't to us all. It's neat to see how our archtypes and symbols effect how we practice :)

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by GoddessofWisdom
represents the element of air

Never heard of the chalice representing air before. Do you have a reference?

[Myst]

I agree totally Danu with the associations you've made.

I think one of the greatest things about Paganism is that we can sit here and discuss these things and our reasonings without getting upset or feeling any one of us is wrong. I really feel our paths are so personal that is not only ok but *essential* for us to examine our own reasons behind associations between tools and other correspondences. For example someone might associate the chalice with air, and I might associate it with water, but it's really fascinating to hear the reasonings behind both. Both are so interesting and neither is wrong.

[Danustouch]

well spoken willow!

[Rick]

Hmm... well, a cup holds air as well as water, eh?

There's a Waxing Moon ritual that I do for prosperity (it's inspired by DJ Conway's Celtic Magic) that involves a chalice & air. Boiled down, it involves invoking the Ancient Ones, speaking your wishes into the chalice, & then placing it upright between 2 lit white candles so that the blessings can fill the chalice. During the Waning Moon, reverse the process to remove negative things. Speak the things you wished removed from your life into the cup, & place it upside down between the candles, so that the negative things can 'run out'.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Rick
Hmm... well, a cup holds air as well as water, eh?


So does the space between some people's ears but it doesn't mean you use their heads as wind tunnels ;)

[Mairwen]

:rotfl:8O

[Rick]

Originally posted by Willow Raven


So does the space between some people's ears but it doesn't mean you use their heads as wind tunnels ;)


...who says I don't...

[GoddessofWisdom]

Originally posted by Mairwen


Never heard of the chalice representing air before. Do you have a reference?


Wicca Craft The Modern Witch's Book of Herbs, Magick and Dreams
By: Gerina Dunwich

[Myst]

Originally posted by Rick



...who says I don't...

uhm ;)

[MystyPines]

Willow Raven, Too Funny! :D :D he he he

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by GoddessofWisdom
Wicca Craft The Modern Witch's Book of Herbs, Magick and Dreams By: Gerina Dunwich

So, it's a Wicca thing, then? That would explain why I've never heard of it. Is it very common??

[MystyPines]

Probably just one of the many ways of using symbols and objects to represent certain elements. I think it has to be whatever is good for that person. The same as using herbs in spellcraft, although there are many books out there giving different attributes and correspondences for herbs, you eventually have to come to your own conclusions about what feels right for you.... :D :D

[Danustouch]

Mairwen..I wouldn't say it is a "Wicca thing" ...rather.."One Wiccans Thing". As Mysty pointed out, even amongst Wiccans, there are various roles assighned to various tools. For instance, the difference between Gardenarian Altars, and Alexandrian Altars, differ on some points. It's really, IMO, a matter of Archtypes and Mental Symbols. What it means for you, works for you. But each has his/her own symbols and archtypes, that mean differen't things for them :)

[MystyPines]

Danustouch, weren't Maxine and Alex Sanders initiated by Gardner? I wonder what the differences are between Gardnerian and Alexandrian. :p :p

[Danustouch]

Yep..they were Mysty. But the Sanders changed the tradition a bit. If I remember correctly, (now mind you, i'm eclectic, so don't follow either tradition too closely). Some of the tools are used differently..assighned differen't meanings. And I was told (though I know even this differs from coven to coven)..that they face their altar in a differen't position than the Gardenarian tradition reccomends.

That Said...Here is a website you might like to visit. This page is in reference to the Alexandrian Traditions:

http://sapphire.cog.org/wicca/trads/alex.htm


Here is a quote:

Alexandrian Wicca uses essentially the same tools and rituals as Gardnerian Wicca, though in some cases, the tools are used differently, and the rituals have been adapted. Another frequent change is to be found in the names of deities and guardians of the quarters. In some ways these differences are merely cosmetic, but in others, there are fundamental differences in philosophy.

[MystyPines]

Thanks Danustouch! :p :p

[Danustouch]

Yw!

[minx]

I personally use a bell to represent air. I use a small polished copper cup to represent water, a big fat Arkansas Quartz crystal to represent earth, and a plain household candle to represent fire. My tiny silver chalice and my ickle wooden dish are for offerings, and I have a gold coloured brass candleholder with gold candle for the God, and a silver, glittery pentagram shaped candle holder and silver candle for the Lady. I don't have a pentacle on the altar as I wear one as a pendant. I also have a tiny wicker basket into which I put seasonal decorations or symbols of the work I am doing. My athame is a tiny replica of a ceremonial 12/13th century sword. (pic attached) :) My altar cloth varies...
BB

[minx]

A pic of my altar. (baskets, plate, water cup and chalice empty - candles unlit :) )

[SylverStar]

Hmm. I just got my Chalice in the mail yesterday. Bought it of of EBAY. It's really nice, smaller that I though but that's actually better. It's silver with grapes and wheat on it.

[Earth_kissed]

Chalice is a word used often to describe the holy Grail, which is not a cup at all (acording to new research) the Chalice is really Mary Magdalene and it was called the Holy grail as a code to hide the Sacred feminine (Magdalene) from her destroyers!! also the Sangreal Documents, the word Sangreal comes from the word, San Greal which means Holy Grail. But more known it is Sang Real, which means Holy Blood!! so really the Chalice is a cup metaphoricly speaking because supposidly Jesus Christ was Married to Mary Magdalene (the church tends to hid this to hid the goddess and the sacred Feminine as they did when Eve Eat that darned apple) and had children, which means Mary's whom was the chalice of the royal blood line of Christ!! Because both Mary and Jesus came from Royal Families. So the Chalice in sense really is coded word for the hidden goddess in Christianity that the Church will hide as long as they can, but as much as they want, the world will soon know the truth about jesus Christ.

When people are searching for the "holy Grail" they are looking for the tomb of Mary Magdalene and the Sangreal Documents (the Documents that were supposed to be in the bible but where taken out of the bible by the early church to sustain Christ's divinity and hide his relations with Magdalene) which are both guarded by the Priory of Sion and early on where guarded by the Nights Templar. When the Church found out about the Templars hidding secred documents, they tortured and burned them at the stake!!!

If it wern't for the darn church and their need to kill in the "name of god" and to lie about the Sacred Feminine I would be a Christian. and in many ways I am a Christian, but I don't just worship Christ I worship Magdalene who was just as important but casted aside, and I worship their bond (Yin and Yang, blade and chalice, black and white) the Universe revolves around that union, and the Church has made it sooo one sided for so long (eliminating the feminine par of the story) that the universe is crying!!

I think this is the reason for 50% of all marriages ending in Divorce

Now that I've ranted and raved you may IM or e-mail me any time with questions about this matter

[Xander67]

while I am haveing several issues with this,

none the less, I would like to say WOW!! that is a very interesting thought and deffinately the first time I have heard the Grail presented in that light...

you get much scoobie snacks for that post! :)

[minx]

"Scooby snacks" :lol:

[CalliopeHellice]

I've never heard of a Chalice representing Air (of course, I don't own any books by Dunwich). I'm Wiccan, and the Chalice represents the Goddess, moon, water, the womb, etc.

Actually, on my altar I have many representations:
Silver Chalice: used for wine/juice/etc for offerings/feast (why? what else would I use? ;) )

Silver Bowl: used for Water (why? silver=Goddess/moon metal, bowl=womb, Goddess, rebirth, etc.)

Brass and Copper Bowl: used for salt/Earth (why? brass and Copper=God/sun metal)

Silver Bell: used for Air (why? silver=Goddess metal, tinkling sound=airy)
Brass Gong: used for Air (why? brass=God metal, gong sound=airy, balances silver bell)

Copper Cauldron Censer: used for Air (why? copper=God metal, incense=Air)

Handmade Bowl: used for offerings

Wand: used for energy projection/represents Air (why? branches=surrounded by air, tree=oxygenation)

Athame: used for energy projection/represents Fire (why? metal=fire, athame=masculine fire energy, metal=created in fire)

I've heard of the Grail representing Mary/Mary Magdalene, and the femininity of God in Christian mythos. I've actually read it in Father Andrew M. Greeley's book, The Mary Myth. He enjoys exploring the missing femininity of God. His homepage is http://www.agreeley.com.

[BlueFlame]

Theres a whole contingent of Magicians and Wiccans that purposly skew correspondences in published material so that people will have to join a coven to get the "real stuff" This is especialy common in Cerimonial Magic, but there is some overlap between CM and Wicca. I think that's the reason there is the whole north=air vs earth debate in Wicca. This is a fairly well know article that explains it more: http://www.geocities.com/wiccantwinpaths/altarstuff/elementstuff/north.htm

All in all I don't think it matters one bit. I mean the gods arn't going ignore you if you've got it differently!

[CalliopeHellice]

Theres a whole contingent of Magicians and Wiccans that purposly skew correspondences in published material so that people will have to join a coven to get the "real stuff" This is especialy common in Cerimonial Magic, but there is some overlap between CM and Wicca. I think that's the reason there is the whole north=air vs earth debate in Wicca. This is a fairly well know article that explains it more: http://www.geocities.com/wiccantwinpaths/altarstuff/elementstuff/north.htm

All in all I don't think it matters one bit. I mean the gods arn't going ignore you if you've got it differently!
Here's an article from witchvox supporting East/Air and North/Earth:

http://www.witchvox.com/words/words_2003/e_watchtrowers.html

[Theres]

when one sets out to start a new 'tradition', something must be changed or it wouldn't be new, right?
traditions aside, i can see no logic for associating the Cup with air.

i've always seen the Cup as the water, the womb... Goddess.
in fact i've long thought that the whole legend of the "quest for the Grail" to be a metaphor for the search for the Goddess, the quest to return Her to Her rightful place alongside the God (balance).

and Calliope, if we say that the athame is fire because it is metal, then why wouldn't the wand be North, because it's made of wood? and the clay cup is born of fire also. is that South?
it's important to remember that the athame is NOT a weapon (although that word is used in some traditions), and so the 'martial' association is probably not really valid in this discussion.

[CalliopeHellice]

when one sets out to start a new 'tradition', something must be changed or it wouldn't be new, right?
traditions aside, i can see no logic for associating the Cup with air.

i've always seen the Cup as the water, the womb... Goddess.
in fact i've long thought that the whole legend of the "quest for the Grail" to be a metaphor for the search for the Goddess, the quest to return Her to Her rightful place alongside the God (balance).

and Calliope, if we say that the athame is fire because it is metal, then why wouldn't the wand be North, because it's made of wood? and the clay cup is born of fire also. is that South?
it's important to remember that the athame is NOT a weapon (although that word is used in some traditions), and so the 'martial' association is probably not really valid in this discussion.
:P Gman! LOL...

Anyhow, yes, you're absolutely right (what else is new? *grin). Then WHY, pray tell, IS the Athame recognized as fire/South?

Wand=Air (to me) b/c trees oxygenate Air (of course, that only applies if your wand is made of wood).

[Theres]

:P Gman! LOL...

Anyhow, yes, you're absolutely right (what else is new? *grin). Then WHY, pray tell, IS the Athame recognized as fire/South?

Wand=Air (to me) b/c trees oxygenate Air (of course, that only applies if your wand is made of wood).

yeah, that "trees oxygenate air" thing makes more sense to me than anything else i've heard!

as to "why IS the Athame recognized as fire/South"... as far as i'm concerned, it isn't! i see the athame as air/East.
but i must say that of all the strange things i've read since i've been online, this is one of the most challenging to me.
all i can think is that it dates back to the Golden Dawn and MacGregor/Mathers strange habit of disguising the 'real' information from those who weren't 'initiated' (a trait often erroneously blamed on Crowley, imo).

as to why the athame is air, i can only say that it is tradition (which makes as much sense as anything else!), AND to explain it in a way that you in particular might understand...
one of the symbols of Hekate is the dagger, which is generally thought of as a symbol of Her role in childbirth (the cutting of the umbilical cord, etc). now to me, this reference is directly related to the 'birth' of the Sun in the east, the direction of new beginnings. therefore the athame = east!

[CalliopeHellice]

as to why the athame is air, i can only say that it is tradition (which makes as much sense as anything else!), AND to explain it in a way that you in particular might understand...
one of the symbols of Hekate is the dagger, which is generally thought of as a symbol of Her role in childbirth (the cutting of the umbilical cord, etc). now to me, this reference is directly related to the 'birth' of the Sun in the east, the direction of new beginnings. therefore the athame = east!

Hmmmm...interesting! That DOES make sense! Although I associate the athame with Fire/South, I don't really use it as a symbol of such--I have a candle on my altar for that purpose. I only use my athame for direction energy and the such. Perhaps directing energy=energy=electricity=fire=athame is a good explanation, as well, although maybe not ;) .

Hmmmm...thought provoking discussion!