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StormVixen
March 1st, 2005, 11:18 AM
this is a christian site doing better job than most at explaining wicca and paganism...

http://www.christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/wicca.html

i know i always do stuff like this but nevermind... if you dont care dont post, simple.

blueiris
March 1st, 2005, 11:48 AM
That's a very good article. I kind of skimmed it, but I noticed that the author says that the devil appears in the Old Testament as the serpent. I didn't think this was true, that it was John Milton in Paradise Lost who introduced the idea that the serpent was actually the devil.

StormVixen
March 1st, 2005, 12:08 PM
That's a very good article. I kind of skimmed it, but I noticed that the author says that the devil appears in the Old Testament as the serpent. I didn't think this was true, that it was John Milton in Paradise Lost who introduced the idea that the serpent was actually the devil.

i think your right... but not sure... i think the author got most point right...

Lunacie
March 1st, 2005, 12:32 PM
Yep, the devil (Satan) appears as a serpent in the bible, in the book of Genesis, in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. The author got it right that most Pagans/Wiccans do not believe in a personal entity named Satan or the devil. We think the church gave a name and a personality to the many forms of entities that we don't understand. Quoting a bunch of bible verses to back up their position that Satan is a real person (fallen angel) is silly. If I were to write a book about a ghost named Jones who goes around appearing to people and getting them to do bad things, and then debated the subject with those who say there isn't just one ghost and that ghosts don't really care that much about what the living do or don't do, and I backed up my viewpoint with quotes from my own book, that would be the same silly debate technique that this author is using.

farm girl
March 1st, 2005, 01:23 PM
Yes, satan as a serpent is in the bible.

That article is pretty good. I am more likely to hear an author out when I see that they are taking my beliefs and others seriously and truthfully.

MoonDragn
March 1st, 2005, 03:43 PM
This guy still doesn't understand paganism very well. The comparisons he makes to Christianity are all biased and very self serving.

First is the comment he makes about how pagan only see the beauty of nature and not the creator of that beauty. That is simply untrue and is dependent on what forms of paganism one is talking about.

He talks about how the devil is not invented by the church yet states that it first appears in the book of genesis as a serpent. So which is it? It certainly wasn't invented by pagans. The fact that evil exists in the world could be due to alot of different reasons. To collectively file it under one entity is simply irresponsible and without any kind of proof to back up that, its simply smoke and mirrors.

He talks about how rituals in paganism enslave people. Thats kind of funny because Christianity is all about rituals. The sermons, the hymns, the taking of the sacrament. You can't refuse to do them when you go to church. We don't do rituals because we are forced to, we do them because we want to. He really missed the whole point.

He talks about how the various gods/goddesses are just evil spirits who are deceiving humanity. How can you prove that "GOD" isn't one big evil spirit who tried to deceive humanity from the beginning? Heck he showed up as a burning bush...

As for the issue with the patriarchy. Its not the addressing of God that most churches are guilty of. It is its priesthood which for a long time only accepted male clergy. It is the way women are treated as creatures of sin and not as equals of men. This guy clearly doesn't understand anything.

The issue about revenge, the cursing is done often by christians just as much as any other. The fact the it is taught to get god to do your vengence doesn't rule out that it was in your heart. Also wiccans practice harm none. The fact that he mentioned one example doesn't mean every other wiccan is like that. He talks about false Christians but doesn't consider that there are false wiccans as well.

I have personally made a sincere examination of Christianity and I have found that the problem isn't with the religion itself, but with people like this author, who speaks with a righteous fervor but still does not understand the true meaning of faith and belief. If he did, he would never go to such lengths to criticise it. Comparing another religion is fine. Comparing it with criticism is not.

StormVixen
March 2nd, 2005, 07:21 AM
i still think its better than most of the christian views of paganism on the net... and i have looked at lots believe me... its just a random hobby of mine... im on a quest to find the best anti pagan site... noone seems to be proveing that paganism is bad apart from when they get the facts wrong... but sofar people are proving theres nothing wrong with it so i guess im safe...

MoonDragn
March 2nd, 2005, 11:03 AM
Well you should not have to prove what you are believe in is right or wrong. If you believe in it that is enough. You could be worshiping ken and barbie dolls for all we care, its your religion and nobody else should have any say in it.

StormVixen
March 2nd, 2005, 03:59 PM
yeah i know... i believe what i believe and everyone elses views doesnt change that... im not about to change what i believe... but then again my beliefs are always evolving...

Valerie
March 7th, 2005, 12:12 PM
I agree with all the points MoonDragn mentioned. This man claims he understands Paganism, but his entire article proved otherwise. In every paragraph he kept going back to Jesus Christ, putting Paganism in such a light where, according to him, Pagans are confused followers roaming in the dark, when what they really need is to find their light - the lord and savior Jesus Christ. He conveniently puts Paganism and Christianity against each other in such a way that Christianity ends up "on top", and misquotes Pagan authors to the point of making them sound like incoherent know-nothings.

One thing he wrote particularly struck a chord:


The gods, goddesses, and spirits of Paganism

Most of those who are involved in Paganism hold to a belief in a multitude of gods, goddesses and various spirit beings. Pagan writer, Prudence Jones, observes that a pagan religion

"...is polytheistic, recognizing a plurality of divine beings... " (Prudence Jones, Paganism Today, p. 34).

But can these spirits really be relied upon? Can they be trusted? Again, Prudence Jones observes the following:

"When the world is seen as filled with the gods, however, it can be easy to lose ones inner focus of control. Superstition results: the synchronicities of the world are seen as controlling everything, and the human being seems to have no power faced with the enveloping multitude of otherworldly forces whose influence can be read in every portent." (Prudence Jones, Paganism Today, p. 38).

Jones touches on some very good points here. There have been many people who have practiced various aspects of the occult and have had dealings with spirits, but at some point or another, have felt that they no longer have control over the forces which they call upon, but rather, they themselves are being swept along by forces beyond their control. This was certainly my own experience, and has been the experience of countless others, who's experiences I have also heard. The truth is, that these spirits are highly intelligent and powerful evil spirit beings who are intent on manipulating and deceiving humanity, and leading people away from the true freedom and salvation which is to be found in Jesus Christ.

Doesn't this read like the same preaching hoopla of fundies? This man claims he understands the practices of Paganism, Wicca, and Witchcraft, but in my opinion, he missed the whole point.

Windsmith
March 7th, 2005, 02:01 PM
In a way, this is scarier than the ranting psychofundies. Few people but their own followers take them at all seriously. The author of this article is just rational enough that some people reading it might believe that this is what Paganism really is about. Plus, most psychofundies aren't interested in converting Pagans - in their eyes, we're all beyond salvation, & the only thing that matters is keeping us away from your children. But this article reads like a how-to for saving Pagan souls: "This is what Pagans believe, so these are the parts of Christianity you should focus on to convince them to convert." Ugh. Creepy.

StormVixen
March 7th, 2005, 02:17 PM
but if your "meant" to be pagan youll stay pagan... its gonna be very hard for anyone to convert any pagan i know...

Windsmith
March 7th, 2005, 04:13 PM
but if your "meant" to be pagan youll stay pagan... its gonna be very hard for anyone to convert any pagan i know...It'd be nice to think that all Pagans are "meant" to be Pagans, & that they're immune to conversion, but it's not always the case. Many of the "conversion" techniques that certain religious groups (of many different religions) use are actually more akin to brainwashing than they are to actual spiritual concern. And if they approach, for instance, an insecure high schooler who's terrified of hir parents and classmates finding out ze's become a witch, talking sweetly about the saving power of Jesus and using these more brainwashing kind of tricks, that's a serious impediment of hir free will.

I don't think this particular group has such sinister motives, of course, but even at that, wouldn't it be nice if we could just live our daily lives & not have to worry about fending off people desperate to bring our souls to Jesus?

StormVixen
March 7th, 2005, 05:20 PM
hmmm... i know there are crazy people who use brainwashing tecnequs... i like to think im immune... i like to have an answer for everything... um... yeah...

RubyRose
March 13th, 2005, 11:47 PM
Interesting article ... I suppose one could say at least the author is trying but I doubt he will succeed in converting anyone.

Jade Moon
March 14th, 2005, 12:20 AM
good article - I wish all Christian would read it and understand that we are not all "devil worshippers!"