Thanksgiving as a Pagan holiday?

[SeekerSandy]

My witchie wife and I were spending the lazy evening in a philosophical mood and the subject came up about Thanksgiving.
It was first conceived as a day of thanks for staying alive, later becoming a day of thanks for the bounty that we have in the states.
Of course, it was started by xians, or was it? Consider the native Americans who were present and had some say in the festival. Conversely, think about the decendants of those "good" people who started the tradition of burning witches. Why can't we exact restitution by taking the day as the xian faith appropriated many of our Sabbats?
When you think of the Sabbats and attendant feasts, simple or otherwise, is not Thanksgiving an appropriate time to invoke the ancient powers and show thanks for the bounty by exercising gluttony in its purest form?
Is there any rule that says Wiccans can't create a new Day of Power ? There's nothing wrong with the old ones, certainly, but they were recognized for valid reasons and I think maybe we could be ready for a new one, for a valid reason.
Or can such days of power be unique to only one nation? I would be glad to share the day with the world, myself.
Well, just a thought--don't want to ramble on about it.
Your thoughts, gentle friends?
:huh:

[GoddessofWisdom]

I believe the past is something to learn from not something to use later as a way to get restitution. Although I fully agree that the Native Americans had more to do with the spirit of thanksgiving than the x-tians did.

I don't consider it an x-tian holiday but a Native american one and therfore to me it's always been somewhat of a Sabbat.


It's all in how YOU percieve the holiday to H#ll with everyone else. :):):)

[talamh]

There are already two Sabbats associated with Thanksgiving.... Lugnasagh - the celebration of the grain harvest, and Mabon.. the celebration of fruits and vegetable harvest. Samhain was traditionally when the animals that would not be carried over the winter were slaughtered and "harvested".... so there is already a lot of "being thankful" woven into the the Wheel of the Year and the mythology of the Sun God....

Creating a ninth sabbat would unblanace the wheel....

i see Thanksgiving (this weekend in Canada - next month in the States) as a time to join together with family and friends who are not pagan and celebrate life and love and the amazing bounty that we live in.

i don't see a need to create another sabbat.. even if that were possible. bb talamh

[Myst]

talamh is right for the most part. However here in Canada we work differently obviously because our harvests are earlier (thus also why our Thanksgiving is earlier in the year). So here Litha is the beginning of our harvest season, then through Lughnassah and Mabon. By Samhain the crops had better already be in or they'll be ruined by frost :) However, our snow may start falling in the end of October but it'll still be around in March sometimes, so to say animals are taken in October because they won't live through winter; well, I imagine it would be done much later in the calendar year since our snow and cold stay at least 6 months. And this is in the southern part of Canada, I imagine it's even different further up north. :)

[Shadowulfe]

Actually if i remember my history correctly it was the Puritans whom first started the Thanksgiving tradition....it was later adopted by x-tains but the puritains started it.

[Myst]

Puritans? Who are they and why did they start it, and when? Got some links or something so we can look? :)

[loopy]

Here's a link about Puritans: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CAP/PURITAN/purhist.html

Puritans (from m-w.com) 1 capitalized : a member of a 16th and 17th century Protestant group in England and New England opposing as unscriptural the ceremonial worship and the prelacy of the Church of England

They were the gang around during the witch trials, if I remember correctly.

:)

[Swanspirit]

What seems is f it might be a good idea initially might not hold up on closer inspection......
Some Native people consider Thankgiving a celebration of Genocide...... and thanksgiving has not always been depicted as a peaceful holiday,,,,Check out the real deal here
http://www.plimoth.org/Library/Thanksgiving/firstT.htm
AND somewhere there is a long written letter from Native Americans to the American Public about what should be taught regarding this holiday .........
I used to love this holiday myself .... and in its essence I do .....regarding it as one of the FEW non religious affiliated holidays ...... but since I became aware of the broader implications....... I have changed my mind...........about the historlical significance
Love and Light
Swannie

[Myst]

Originally posted by loopy
Here's a link about Puritans: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CAP/PURITAN/purhist.html

Puritans (from m-w.com) 1 capitalized : a member of a 16th and 17th century Protestant group in England and New England opposing as unscriptural the ceremonial worship and the prelacy of the Church of England

They were the gang around during the witch trials, if I remember correctly.

:)

Thanks. Always good to know the history behind holidays.

Personally I celebrate holidays for two reasons - to recognize the turn of the wheel, and to get together with family. So, while the history is interesting for me it is *just* interesting, and doesn't change my mind about celebrating.

[Danustouch]

http://www.historychannel.com has a great section on The first thanksgiving, and on the "History" of thanksgiving. It didn't start off as an annual feast by the way. The first Thanksgiving lasted three days. But..it wasn't an annual holiday until somewhat modern times. When you go to the History Channel Website, type in "Thanksgiving" in the "search by keyword" field.

Anyway...I personally celebrate Mabon as a "spiritual" thanksgiving holiday. I celebrate Thanksgiving with my parents, usually, because I love any excuse to get together with my extended family, and pig out! But...the past few years, i've been in an ethical dilemma about it. I have a hard time celebrating a Holiday, which in some ways, honors the European invasion of America. It bothers me to celebrate it, because when the Europeans came over, they brought with them many illnesses which the Native Americans had not yet seen, and had no known cures for. And, because AFTER that first Thanksgiving, the Wampanoag Indians suffered massacres at the hands of European settlers. So...this is how I've come to reconcile the Holiday with my spirit.

Usually...my cousin offers the "Grace" at the meal. He goes into a long rambling usually, about being Thankful that "Jesus" came to "Save" us Sinners (my parents aren't even really hardline christians the way HE is)...So usually, I go outside while he is saying grace, and offer a bowl of cornmeal, and one of tobacco, to my Ancestral Spirits (i'm part native american)..and I thank the Ancestors for their sacrifices. I honor them, privately. This year, however, I think I may ask my mother if I can share a Native American Prayer, after my Cousin says his Christian one. It would be more "authentic" after all, then JUST having a Christian prayer said. And I think it's important to remember these wonderful people, and to aknowledge them. I feel to allow their memory to be lost, amidst all the "Trappings" and "Traditions" of MODERN day observation of Thanksgiving, would kinda be a slap in the face to them. So..this is how I go about observing it :)

[Swanspirit]

here ........http://www.geocities.com/lgloria3/NativeAmericanThanksgiving.html
with music .......reflects your feelings Danus........
Love and light

[Danustouch]

Ummmm..thanks..But I'm not looking to lay a guilt trip on my family....only make them aware that it's a good time to remember our ancestors :) I'll just offer a simple Prayer to the Great Spirit, thanks :)

[Swanspirit]

not a suggestion...........in the least.......


as is this .........
Gwa! Gwa! Gwa! Now the time has come! Hear us, Lord of the Sky! We
are here to speak the truth, for you do not hear lies,
We are your children, Lord of the Sky.

Now begins the Gayant' gogwus This sacred fire and sacred tobacco
And through this smoke We offer our prayers We are your children, Lord of the
Sky.

Now in the beginning of all things You provided that we inherit your
creation You said: I shall make the earth on
which people shall live And they shall look to the earth as their mother
And they shall say, "It is she who supports
us." You said that we should always be thankful For our earth and for
each other So it is that we are gathered
here We are your children, Lord of the Sky.

Now again the smoke rises And again we offer prayers You said that food
should be placed beside us And itshould be ours in exchange for our labor.
You thought that ours should be a world where green grass of many
kinds should grow You said that some should be medicines
And that one should be Ona'o the sacred food, oursister corn You gave to
her two clinging sisters beautiful Oa'geta, our sister beans and bountiful
Nyo'sowane,
oursister squash The three sacred sisters; they who sustain us.

This is what you thought, Lord of the Sky. Thus did you think to provide for us
And you ordered that when thearm season comes, That we should see the
return of life And remember you, and be thankful, and gather hereby the sacred
fire. So now again
the smoke arises We the people offer our prayers We speak to you through the
rising smoke We are thankful, Lord of the Sky.



this is the Iriquois or Seneca Thanksgiving prayer.......
Love and light
Swannie

[loopy]

Originally posted by Willow Raven


Thanks. Always good to know the history behind holidays.

Personally I celebrate holidays for two reasons - to recognize the turn of the wheel, and to get together with family. So, while the history is interesting for me it is *just* interesting, and doesn't change my mind about celebrating.

I'm that way too. We've always celebrated Thanksgiving, and it falls right near my birthday, so I always associate it with family getting together and great meals and laughter. I'm aware of the history, but *my* history with Thanksgiving has been all good, so... *shrug*

[Twilight Garden]

There are a group of Native Americans in my area that fast through "Thanksgiving" because of the tragedy that other Native American suffered for the "white man". I have heard their story of it and it makes complete sense to me. This isn't meant to take others away from Thanksgiving. (I, too, still celebrate it with my family.)It's just my reason why I don't wish to turn it into a pagan festivity.

[Lavender]

Originally posted by LunarMist
There are a group of Native Americans in my area that fast through "Thanksgiving" because of the tragedy that other Native American suffered for the "white man". I have heard their story of it and it makes complete sense to me. This isn't meant to take others away from Thanksgiving. (I, too, still celebrate it with my family.)It's just my reason why I don't wish to turn it into a pagan festivity.

Yes, I've heard of that here too. Being of oriental descent, Thanksgiving had always been something that's just there. In our family, it was always a time to give thanks for what we have, our families and our health. And like Willow, I understand the significance of Thanksgiving from the historical view but I still enjoy it because I look at it from my perspective. I enjoy Thanksgiving because of family and getting together for pigging out and even doing my own thanksgiving to the Mother.

[SeekerSandy]

quite some interesting responses here and some points raised that I hadn't considered sufficiently before.
I don't mean to get off the thread here but Danustouch, I'm not an in-yer-face kinda guy when it comes to religion, however, I am really tiring of self-righteous hypocritical jeeeeezus freeks with their long winded blessings and benedictions.
Personally, I think adding your own prayer is most appropriate! The native Americans who were royally screwed over by the puritans might appreciate someone putting a better face on the thing buy remembering a pagan diety or two.
Anyway, before you condemn my suggestions too much, gentle pagan folk, think through my intent.
Sure glad I added that "are you nuts" box, so refreshing to see such honesty.....:eek:

[Swanspirit]

Your intent was very clear........
and I dont think it is ever wrong to give thanks.......or honor our ancestors .......by remembering them honestly ........ and as for pagans ...... they can and will do whatever they see fitting for the occasion........:>
It was a great topic and "food for thought "
Love and Light
Swannie

[Xander67]

I think we should just leave it as is... we can celebrate it as pagans without takeing away from its meaning...

and yes there are two sides here,
another example, not to be OT but its apropo here,

take the Jewish passover as an example, Im sure the egyptians feel the same way about passover as the Native americans do about Thanksgiving,.... swannie brought up a good point, bur why must we always dwell on the dark sides of things,

Thanksgiving was nevere intended to be a celebration of Genocide, and the ppl who celebrate it do not see it that way, it is giving thanks for the things they have!

sure its easy for other societys to point out darkness but why cant they jsut let us celebrate our holidays ...we dont go around picking out flaws in thier holidays, we respect them for who they are....COEXISTANCE....its hard indeed!

[David19]

I'm not sure if Thanksgiving can be a sabaat but then i'm not American plus it seems kind of petty, wanting to start a holiday just because 1000 years ago some christians adopted a pagan holiday. Plus do people really want to celebrate it when it celebrates stealing land that didn't belong to the people.

[BeigeAllen]

Actually, the idea of a feast of Thanksgiving was not started by Christians, that concepts dates back to the dawn of man. Just the idea of doing it only once a year on the third Thursday in November to celebrate a myth involving the taking of lands from one people by another.

The Feast of Thanksgivingis a way to show the wealth of the community, both material and spiritual. Even those that have little can contribute something to a feast, even if its just cleanup help. The very act of feasting with a group encourages fellowship and is a bonding experience. Even if the rest of your life is in the crapper you can be thankful that you have this group of people that you can relax and munch with.

In the kumpa'nia I was raised in we had feasts of thanksgiving at least once every two months. We'd get together, whow off our cooking skills with our favorite recipes, and chat and play the day away together. In addition, the feast was an outreach effort, by bringing the community together we would learn about those that needed help, and could often pair people up whose needs supported one another. I remember one time there was a woman that had 4 children, the youngest of whom was 2, who was having trouble making ends meet. At the feast she met two other women: a new first mother, and a grandmotherly woman whose family was long gone. These three women got to know each other comfortably enough at the feast that they began to get together on a regular basis and through sharing their skills with one another, improved the quality of all of their lives.

So if we are going to take it back to its original context, let's take it all the way back and add the Feast of Thanskgiving to not one sabbat but all of them, not as a holiday, but as the rite it once was.

[Sun_and_Saturn]

I consider Lughnassadh and Mabon to be "thanksgiving" sabbats. I am fully aware of the history behind the "American Thanksgiving". We do celebrate on actual Thanksgiving day, but we do it just as an excuse to meet with family and gorge ourselves! (and so we don't look "freakish" here in the good ol' U.S. of A. for not partaking in "tradition" ;) I mean, isn't it fun to see if you can recreate your dead grandma's recipe for sweet potato crunch and have people rave about how great it is? No religion or Pilgrims or references to either associated with our feast.

[Theres]

no, i think it's a secular holiday.

anyone can be thankful, even an atheist. nothing peculiarly Pagan about thanksgiving (imo).

[bshore]

One more thing, talking about adding a new Wiccan Sabbat might get some of the Traditional Gardnerians up in arms. Just a thought.

[Willow Rosette]

I like the idea of celebrating all the blessings of what we have. Even if it is very little we still have something, and that is what I want to teach my daughter. But at the same time those with better minds than mine knew how the wheel of the year is supposed to be. The Goddess made it that way to begin with so I kinda dont think IMHO that it is our place to change it. Now that being said sometimes it is very hard to be thankfull for what we have when life gets tough but still no matter how little we have when the holidays come around we still have change to drop into the salvation army bucket (not wanting to get on that one). For whatever reason the holidays bring out the better in people. I like the idea of using it in every ritual or sabbat or any other part of life. That way even when it isnt a "holiday" we can still be gratefull for what we have.