Handling Conflicts between Tradition and Experience

[Darakash]

Ok, I have been thinking about this for a while and not really sure where to begin...so as usual, it will probably be wordy!

When I first began investigating and learning about Paganism, I found the most information available as a newbie was Wicca oriented. I quickly moved toward a more ecclectic path, but retained some practices that I believe are considered Wiccan, for the most part. eg.: casting circle, calling the quarters, observing Sabbats (The Wheel of the Year) and Esbats; things of that nature. Not that these are exclusively Wiccan, but many other Pagan paths do not include these elements.

Anyway, at the same time that I was learning things, I was wacked on the head, by not one, but two Egyptian Deities. There is no question in my mind at this point, that these are my Matron and Patron. I have since, found some other deities with which I have a certain rapport; but it is very clear that the main paternal/maternal relationship is with Sekhmet and Djehuty.

I have, as a result of this relationship done research about (what we know) about Kemetic traditions, and frankly, I do not find much appeal in an orthodox or reconstructionist practice. In many places (forums and informational sites and books) I have found restrictions, warnings, practices that simply do not match up with what I have personally experienced (thus far) with my Matron and Patron.

A few examples:
Kemetic Othodox or reconstructionist tradition to enclose statuary of Deities in a shrine (covered from view); Not mine....and they not only don't seem to mind, but well, it seems to be the way they want it.

The admonishment to avoid working with Netjer during menstruation, virtually opposite in my relationship and has been encouraged in my experience.

Those ritual practices I mentioned above like casting circle and calling quarters and the like likewise seem perfectly acceptable and encouraged by my Matron and Patron, and in fact, I have incorporated the Sons of Horus as representatives of the 4 directions/elements with great results.

So anyway, all that to get to this: Do you think it does any harm to one's practice or path to work with Deities of a specific path in a way that has not been traditional or "acceptable" historically? Do you think that personal relationship and experience outweigh conventional wisdom? Or, is that type of pantheon/tradition mixing a bad thing in your opinion?

Thanks!

[Luciferish]

There are two camps in this court.... If you noticed the "Athena" threads running around of late you probably got a look at both of them... Personally I take a mixture of the two, with paramount attention paid to the 'feedback' I get from the respective diety.

Recons try to reconstruct the religious practices of cultures that are no longer around, this causes some conflicts because the practices may conflict or be rooted in cultural ideals that are actually outside of "worship". To cover dieties was not at the request of the Egyptian Gods, but rather a way to protect them and their followers. Sometimes from Ra, sometimes from the "uninitiated" as well as other things that may be more culturally based. So if you reasearch the "recon" approach, try it and it just doesn't seem to fit you, then bend it, shape and make it yours.

The Relationship you have with a diety, no matter the panteon, is about your dedication and focus upon thier influence in your life. On the other hand, their relationship to you is based on what you do in their name. As long as you don't do something that is outright offensive to said dieties, you will probably be OK. Many of these Gods are eager to adapt for the sake of survival on their part it seems, so include what you can from your research but don't be afraid to adapt it to your lifestyle somewhat, your ability to be comfortable with them is very important.

But, take care as not to inject aspects to a diety that is not already there, dont say, make Kali-Ma a goddess of Love. She's not, she won't be and she will reject it as well as the person making the assertion. But we find that Kali-Ma, if approached, embraced and worked with properly can be almost loving toward her "children", though stern in her wrath if offended.

Those of us who live in the USA are devoid of much of the culture that these Gods come from, so its kind of natural to seek some culture in our lives. Adopting gods of various panteons and the traditions that surround them is valuable in this process, but I don't believe its completely required. Respect is key, try to bridge the Gap where you can and they will meet you half way in most cases.

[SoulHealer]

As I see it all historical documents are limited to a certain people's views and certain people perceptions, it does and never will cover everything

Sometimes it's better to put the book down and learn to experience things first hand

Being to absorbed and control by words in books can be as limiting as never picking up one book

[Luciferish]

As I see it all historical documents are limited to a certain people's views and certain people perceptions, it does and never will cover everything

Sometimes it's better to put the book down and learn to experience things first hand

Being to absorbed and control by words in books can be as limiting as never picking up one book

That is very well put, I find that if you DON'T research you are at a heavy disadvantage in most things.. if you research too much and bind yourself to the research you almost can't hear what THEY say directly to you...

[Darakash]

There are two camps in this court.... If you noticed the "Athena" threads running around of late you probably got a look at both of them... Personally I take a mixture of the two, with paramount attention paid to the 'feedback' I get from the respective diety.
No, I haven't, but will check them out, thanks for the heads up!


Recons try to reconstruct the religious practices of cultures that are no longer around, this causes some conflicts because the practices may conflict or be rooted in cultural ideals that are actually outside of "worship". To cover dieties was not at the request of the Egyptian Gods, but rather a way to protect them and their followers. Sometimes from Ra, sometimes from the "uninitiated" as well as other things that may be more culturally based. So if you reasearch the "recon" approach, try it and it just doesn't seem to fit you, then bend it, shape and make it yours.
Yes, this makes sense. And is where I am going. Thank you for the insight on the "covering" issue; I am not sure if I had seen it explained before!


The Relationship you have with a diety, no matter the panteon, is about your dedication and focus upon thier influence in your life. On the other hand, their relationship to you is based on what you do in their name. As long as you don't do something that is outright offensive to said dieties, you will probably be OK....<SNIPPED>


Your points here are exactly where I was going with this post, I think; I understand the nature(as best as I can) of my Patrons and do not apply/inject things into them that are obviously not theirs, or "of them." At the same time, i am finding that some of the "traditions" that are applied to them as "requirements" don't seem to be that, in all cases. While I am not foolish enough to see Sekhmet as a fluffy Goddess of sweetness and light; I seem to have found enough of a connection with her to know when I have/might/could be doing something offensive, and when my actions meet Her approval. And there have been times, when these things conflict with "traditional practice." And, in fact, I have at times been hesistant to do something based on my understanding/info on orthodox practice, and have received crystal clear messages, that this is NOT an issue......from both of them.

Thanks for responding!

[Darakash]

As I see it all historical documents are limited to a certain people's views and certain people perceptions, it does and never will cover everything

Sometimes it's better to put the book down and learn to experience things first hand

Being to absorbed and control by words in books can be as limiting as never picking up one book

Excellent point! And one of my biggest weaknesses I must admit. But one that I am attempting to overcome, and change. Hence, this line of thought and this post! I am definitely finding that experience truly is the best teacher, and my relationship (strangly, particluarly with Djehuty) improved tremendously when I put the books aside a little and started focusing more on direct interaction.

[Luciferish]

Your points here are exactly where I was going with this post, I think; I understand the nature(as best as I can) of my Patrons and do not apply/inject things into them that are obviously not theirs, or "of them." At the same time, i am finding that some of the "traditions" that are applied to them as "requirements" don't seem to be that, in all cases. While I am not foolish enough to see Sekhmet as a fluffy Goddess of sweetness and light; I seem to have found enough of a connection with her to know when I have/might/could be doing something offensive, and when my actions meet Her approval. And there have been times, when these things conflict with "traditional practice." And, in fact, I have at times been hesistant to do something based on my understanding/info on orthodox practice, and have received crystal clear messages, that this is NOT an issue......from both of them.

Yes, Feedback is the most important piece... I find that the "orthodox" approach is a good way to breach the initial boundries of contact with various dieties, if you can find out what it is... Perhaps easier with Egyptian or other more common pantheons, but not always so. The feedback you gain after the initial contact may, if not must, modify your personal practice with them, in order to make the relationship personal. I have a very different relatioship with say, Diana, than many folks of Dianic trads. She asks different things of me that would be oriented toward what I am able to do for her, so I rarely ask why and I never argue, I just do it.

[Darakash]

This is nothing but a self-serving "bump" any other opinions? :abbed:

[semi]

For me, tradition is a basic outline to follow. I can color it in any way I want to. If I color outside the lines, oh well. If I stuck to tradition, I might not have learned most of what I know. I think it's always best to push beyond conventional parameters and discover new territory.

[Darakash]

For me, tradition is a basic outline to follow. I can color it in any way I want to. If I color outside the lines, oh well. If I stuck to tradition, I might not have learned most of what I know. I think it's always best to push beyond conventional parameters and discover new territory.

Thanks, Semi. I guess I just worry about "watering down" paths and that sort of thing. I do not, and never have of course, referred to myself as a Kemetic Recon or the like, I generally just say I am an Eclectic Pagan with Kemetic leanings...or some such.

[Elderbush]

Once one has experienced the gods, it changes everything. After that I think that each person has to be true to the way that their gods choose to present themselves and accept the relationship that the gods want. I find it alien to object or argue with my gods that they aren't like they seem or try telling them that what they want from me isn't in a book so forget it.

The way I see it is one can try to worship in a culturally correct manner for 2,000 years ago if that is what seems right. What seems right to me is to accept that I live in a different culture than when my pantheon first was worshipped and allow that my gods may have changed over time.

[Khuinaset]

I don't think there's any problem with adding to tradition, so long as you don't try to CHANGE what's already known(i.e...Brigid was a MMC goddess, Sekhmet and Bast are really the same but Bast is the "nicer" Sekhmet, etc.). Also, so long as you don't start looking down on the tradition or people who do try to follow it.

[Modesty]

In particular, I believe that no matter the path, no matter the tradition, no matter the religion, ANY god/dess can be used in your magick. For instance, I am Pagan, but if I have a sick Christian friend, I will call to God/Jehova/Jesus during ritual because that is what my friend believes in. I would never disrespect anyone in that sense.

And I agree with Khuinaset that you can add to anything, but don't take away what is already there. We have learned everything on a trial and error basis since birth. So it is really no surprise if things end up bad sometimes. We can't all be perfect and always do what is right. We live to learn and learn to live. It is only by doing that we know, and by knowing we comprehend and make decisions. BB, Mod

[Darakash]

I don't think there's any problem with adding to tradition, so long as you don't try to CHANGE what's already known(i.e...Brigid was a MMC goddess, Sekhmet and Bast are really the same but Bast is the "nicer" Sekhmet, etc.). Also, so long as you don't start looking down on the tradition or people who do try to follow it.

I see what you mean, of course, and I am a person, who for instance, finds it annoying if someone tries to apply characteristics or "fact' to a deity that are far from what is "known." I think the difficulty that I am trying to express, is what if what is "known" is not what jives with your experience? And, what if what is "known" or at least accepted as truth/fact, may have been bastardized on some level....for instance, the little tidbit that Luciferish gave me about the reason that covering statues is seen as proper is about things that may very well have no bearing on present day practice, nor on any intrinsic desire of the Netjer themselves?

I mean, ok, I will go back to the practice during menstruation thing (though this is NOT as big a deal to me as it may seem, it is just a good example) I have had conversations with Kemetics (neo-kemetics) in which they told me in no uncertain terms that to practice with Sekhmet during this time would be a very regrettable action. She, on the other hand, has made no indication of this to me, and in fact, seems to have been encouraging such action in recent months!

Also, while i am one who, as I said gets annoyed if someone, for instance, tries to make Powerful, wrathful or dark deities into "all loving, all forgiving mothers of love and light;" however, I also find that one's relationship with given deities is so personal and individual, that perhaps a person could very well experience said deity in a way that totally contradicts what is "known"....ack, anyway, I am going to practice as my deities and I agree and see fit, but I still think it is an interesting topic for consideration.?
DK

[Khuinaset]

I see what you mean, of course, and I am a person, who for instance, finds it annoying if someone tries to apply characteristics or "fact' to a deity that are far from what is "known." I think the difficulty that I am trying to express, is what if what is "known" is not what jives with your experience? And, what if what is "known" or at least accepted as truth/fact, may have been bastardized on some level....for instance, the little tidbit that Luciferish gave me about the reason that covering statues is seen as proper is about things that may very well have no bearing on present day practice, nor on any intrinsic desire of the Netjer themselves?

I mean, ok, I will go back to the practice during menstruation thing (though this is NOT as big a deal to me as it may seem, it is just a good example) I have had conversations with Kemetics (neo-kemetics) in which they told me in no uncertain terms that to practice with Sekhmet during this time would be a very regrettable action. She, on the other hand, has made no indication of this to me, and in fact, seems to have been encouraging such action in recent months!

Also, while i am one who, as I said gets annoyed if someone, for instance, tries to make Powerful, wrathful or dark deities into "all loving, all forgiving mothers of love and light;" however, I also find that one's relationship with given deities is so personal and individual, that perhaps a person could very well experience said deity in a way that totally contradicts what is "known"....ack, anyway, I am going to practice as my deities and I agree and see fit, but I still think it is an interesting topic for consideration.?
DK

Well, I don't know if I came off as attacking you, because I didn't mean it that way ;) What I mean is...I have absolutely no problem with people going beyond what's known(or even just simply disagreeing with some of it...I do rituals/daily rite type stuff without wearing all pure cotton things such as the priests would have worn, and nobody's complained so far. of course, most of the recons admit that it's not a HUGE HUGE deal, just something to help get you in the "frame of mind"...anyways...), but it REALLY annoys me when people state that that's fact. The sentence "Aset likes...(random thing) in my experience" is ok with me. The sentence "Aset is a goddess of (random thing)" would probably irritate me because there's just nothing to back it up. Ermm I have no idea if I'm wording this right and getting across what I want to, but yeah.

[Darakash]

Well, I don't know if I came off as attacking you, because I didn't mean it that way ;) What I mean is...I have absolutely no problem with people going beyond what's known(or even just simply disagreeing with some of it...I do rituals/daily rite type stuff without wearing all pure cotton things such as the priests would have worn, and nobody's complained so far. of course, most of the recons admit that it's not a HUGE HUGE deal, just something to help get you in the "frame of mind"...anyways...), but it REALLY annoys me when people state that that's fact. The sentence "Aset likes...(random thing) in my experience" is ok with me. The sentence "Aset is a goddess of (random thing)" would probably irritate me because there's just nothing to back it up. Ermm I have no idea if I'm wording this right and getting across what I want to, but yeah.

You didn't sound like you were attacking me at all! Any frustration that you might have seen in my post was more a difficulty I was having in trying to express my thoughts/questions in a way that was clearer. And You worded it fine. I get what you mean! And thank you very much for explaining and expanding. I appreciate it.

[Loopaleigh]

I think what matters most is one's own personal relationship with Deity, own's one spiritual growth and the application of that to one's daily life.

So maybe it doesn't precisely jive with someones else's experiences with the same Deity, that is their relationship and journey....and yours is just as valid as theirs.
What applies to one person, may not apply to another.

The gods themselves change and adapt to fit the times.....look at the Muses.....still working hard in Hollywood! Just a modern form of stage theater!

I agree mixing in the "old" with the "new" is probably the most effective, and certainly practicing in the old traditions shows respect, but some of the "old" traditions are, well, outdated, and I think the gods understand this.....after all their gods!

Now, I wouldn't go do something really offbeat, like offer whiskey to Obatala....this would really piss him off.... :hrmm:

I realize one of the "sticky" things you are talking about here is trying to relate to other people who worship the same Deities and may not agree with what you are doing, might see you as "fluffy" or "blasphemous"....well fine *shrugs*...so they don't agree, but ultimatly, it has no bearing on your relationship with the Divine. Listen to what they have to say, share your thoughts, maybe you'll learn something from each other, and move on.

For instance, I may not worship Obatala in exactly the same way as someone who is Santeria, so maybe the person who practices Santeria doesn't take me seriously (but knowing people who practice Santeria personaly, I really doubt they would have a problem with it) as long as I don't go around claiming to be a Santera or some other equally disrespectful non-sense, my relationship with Obatala is meaningful to me and just as valid as anyone else's.
I have never been through any 'asentados' (jeez, I need Semi here to correct my terminology :) ) so I would never dare to call myself a Santera, because it would be rude and I haven't earned it, but it doesn't mean I can't worship Obatala and call myself Eclectic Pagan....because that is a more proper discription of what I am.
BTW, I use this example because I have had a Santera tell me I was a "Child of Obatala", and I figure if Mecca says so, it must be true. ;)

I take the "All the goddesses are one Goddess, all the gods are one God, etc, etc, quite literaly. I see the Deities as both individuals AND as parts of a greater whole. For me, this allows for a broader understanding of the Great Divine. I don't reject any of them, not even Jehova or Lucifer, because to me, they are also aspects of the Divine that we need to understand. I may not worship them, but I acknowledge that They are part of the greater whole.

I think you are doing just fine with your Deities, DK....you seem to have a good line of communication with Them...they will continue to let you know what they want or need or how they can help you....and that may be totaly different from what they need from someone else who worships them.

Loop