Characters in fiction = possible deities and myths?

[mydemand]

Apologies if this sounds disjointed, I'm trying to gather my thoughts here.

OK, so the legends we have of our deities and mythologies right now are, in a sense, stories. There's a narrative, and a cast of characters, some moral at the end. Also, they were passed on via storytelling or writing, and they were the greatest works of writing for their time.

Also, there are many people and places that say that writers sometimes don't really "create" their characters, but that they discover their characters and the worlds they live in. It is possible that we are just recalling the lives our characters partake in.

Would it be entirely possible for the characters we know in our current works of fiction to be the basis of current or future mythologies? That, someday, these characters and their stories would be the basis of worship and devotion?

I've read about people who have done rituals with Cthulutu. (SP?) It isn't that far off, then, to imagine Harry Potter or LOTR or Lestat fics or heck, even Barbie and Ken to be the basis of future worship and deification.

Indeed, anthropologists and archaeologists in the future may look back at these stories which we regard now as fiction, and claim them to be the "holy books" of our time.

Is this possible? Could elements of our current work of fiction be deified?

[Ninyve]

interesting idea, and i guess it's possible, if nothing else does survive of our civilisation... you would have to wonder what would though... i mean there is so much around...

as for the actual characters themselves, have you ever read anything about archetypes in fiction being similar to mythological characters? often happens quite unintentionally, and not always in the obvious fiction genres like fantasy... i find that kind of thing interesting, anyway

[RubyRose]

Interesting...

I've actually read a lot of different authors views of the Arthurian Legends. Arthur, Gweneviere and Lancelot. And while the basics of the story stay the same, there are discrepencies between all of them.

I think the reason that myths get altered and changed is because different regions, as with the Arthurian Legends (france, britain, wales) each had an influence on the story, adding in characters and so forth.

I think at least as far as historical recounts go, its easier for a writer to draw of other writers work, and then go about constructing something of their own, rather than working completely from scratch.

[Bix]

I think there was a thread or two around here that discussed modern deities.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

If someone were to go around starting up a cult of Takhisis from DragonLance, I wouldn't exactly stop them. She needs all the help she can get, poor thing!

[Sleet]

If someone were to go around starting up a cult of Takhisis from DragonLance, I wouldn't exactly stop them. She needs all the help she can get, poor thing!

Given that she's dead... ;)

[MoonDragn]

Takhisis though was based losely on Tiamat, an actual diety.

I think if we had a nuclear war and the statue of liberty survived, it might be worshiped as a goddess of the ancients.

[Sleet]

Takhisis though was based losely on Tiamat, an actual diety.

Very loosely. The author who created her is actually quite a devout Mormon.

[MoonDragn]

If you're talking about margaret weis, she didn't create her. Tahkisis was created as part of a creative AD&D team for the dragonlance world. She didn't create the dieties which were based on the D&D world. The description matches that of Tiamat's in the monster manual.

[Sleet]

If you're talking about margaret weis...

I'm talking about Tracy Hickman, who was part of that team that Margaret later joined. But we're getting way off topic. ;)

[Isa]

Indeed, anthropologists and archaeologists in the future may look back at these stories which we regard now as fiction, and claim them to be the "holy books" of our time.

Is this possible? Could elements of our current work of fiction be deified?

This is entirely possible... especially since anthropologists today frequently inflate the significance of what they find in wishful thinking or just to pad their own credentials. The more things change~

[Dragon_Lady_of_Air]

If barbie and ken are ever worshipped I will have to take my goddess powers and freeze the earth over from the grave. lol

But actually highly possible.

[Toby Stimpson]

Ooo, this is a great topic! I just came out of an english class that explored the archetypal figures in certain phases of Comedy, Romance, Tragedy and Satire and Irony. I suppose one day figures from our litiriture could be deified...after all, cant the majority of the world's scriptures be seen as mythological stories?...and Mythology IS after all just an extension of he basic forms of story telling. When it coems to that question, I can think that perhaps if teachings can be conveyed through characters and if there was a certain destruction that happened where half of the stories survived...then perhaps they would see these figures as heroic Gods...

To take it a step further though, and this is what i've always found amazing, arent we all God like, mythology wise. I mean if you look at our connections with people and a Mythology...theres a lot of Humanity in those old myths...what if WE are the mythology and living a written mythology somewhere...what if our friends and the intricate connections between them are seen as a mythology to soem ppl soemwhere in those many planes of existance...wouldnt that be interesting...anyways, good topic!

Namaste

Tobias

[Windsmith]

Can, will, and already has happened.

Stranger in a Strange Land begat the Church of All Worlds. Scientology developed mostly from Dianetics. 70,000 people marked their religion as "Jedi" in the last Australian census (sure, a lot of them were joking, but I bet some weren't).

I agree with what a lot of people have said about archetypes; if an author is fortunate enough to tap into something bigger than just "I made this character up out of my head;" if they really have been given a character who represents some classic form (the mentor, the seeker, the martyr, what have you), then why shouldn't it come, in time, to be seen as something more? This is what I believe about deity: Mystery - that great force beyond ourselves - created us. Mysterious Ones - individual named deities - we created as representations of the larger Mystery, which is far beyond human comprehension. Somebody had to think of Athena for the first time. If the God Lestat or the Goddess McGonagall suits someone's spiritual needs in the future, more power to 'em!

Plus, much of what we know or think we know about truly ancient cultures comes from scholarly interpretation today. Who knows how accurate it is? Hundreds of thousands of years from now, when we're gone and the cockroaches have evolved, they might look at the ruins of our civilizations and believe that we worshipped the combustion engine and that our highest holy day was called "Super Bowl Sunday." Compared to that, people worshipping, say, Anne of Green Gables would be infinitely preferable.

And, hey, if it's the Goddess Barbie you want, check out:
Goddess of the Moon Barbie (http://store.yahoo.com/edt90620/goddessofmoon.html)
Sun Goddess Barbie (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5562915392&category=15952#ebayphotohosting)
Grecian Goddess Barbie (http://www.foresitecomputing.net/Barbies/html/greciangoddess.html)
and this "article," (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5341/barbie.html) which has always cracked me up.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

.......
Her Dark Majesty is DEAD? How? When? Where? Who?? The last I heard, she was planning to return and give those wierd big-ass dragons a run for their money. But I've been out of the loop for quite some time now.
But yes, Takhisis is loosely based on Tiamat, a Babylonian or Sumerian goddess, I forget which. On a totally geeky note, in the first edition of the Monster Manual for D&D, there's a five-headed dragon with astonishing resemblances to Takhisis which happens to go by the name of Tiamat.
I remember now, I had a friend once who actually believed in Takhisis in the sort of.....I believe the word is egregore? Where sufficient belief in something creates it. For more info on that kind of thinking, please read 'Small Gods' by Terry Pratchett.
I once tried to create a spoof religion based around Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII, and some sad people took it for a real belief system......oh, how sad. It was a thought experiment - what would the theology be if Sephiroth's plan had succeeded and he had indeed become 'A God to rule over every soul'? I never really got a good answer, but itwas fun trying :P

[XanderAmon]

There is actually a small faith based around a similar idea - not that our "fictions" are about gods, but about regular people in other "Realms". It's called Ellara, and if you want to find out more you can visit their LJ community:

http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=ellara

I myself am a member of the community, although I don't really believe in everything they do. If you're interested, go ahead and join. They're all quite open-minded. :)

[Morrighan61]

Actually you all can laugh at me, but I firmly believe play and ritual are intertwined, that fiction and reality merge from myth to working aspects of the Divine.

In a sense, on my altar, some of my "toys" represent aspects of the the Divine. So in a sense it's not too absurd to say my dolls DO get their share of reverence...

I happen to like the Arthurian Cycle, Lake Ladies, Grail et all. So when I was a tad more affluent for a bit, I actually went out and bought the 3 Camelot ladies from Franklin Mint. On my altar they stand in for different Goddess aspects... (I have a Grail up there too. A silver chalice, with a glass paperweight inserted. It has flares inside and is shaped like a flame...It looks rather like the "Grail" coming to life, as it were...Sort of a Speilberg ala Indiana Jones effect..LOL)

I'm an artist as well as a Witch, and I am big into creating scenes and archtypes...My altar is a theatre of sorts. Guenevere is my pagan "May Queen" the summer bride, Morgan Le Fay is my "Morrighan" and the Lady of the Lake she is "Morgante" a stand in for sea Goddesses like Meri. I also have an actual Aphrodite doll, an Irish Princess who serves as my "Eire" stand in and a gypsy doll that stands in for "Tana" the Goddess of my Strega roots...A couple of cool Witches...It's a mix of statues, dolls et all...

You get the idea...

Even in play, I still find myself dressing up my toys to emulate various Goddess archtypes...

I collect fashion dolls . (Not so much Barbie, though I have a few, mostly the Witchy and Irish ones..) I prefer the 15" ones like Gene, Alex, Eve etc...My "girls" they take on whatever aspect I feel they harken to. Several of them have been repainted by me to be Star Goddesses, Witches, Sirens etc...

I honestly feel no need to confine my altar-making to one corner of the house. My whole place is filled with Mary statues, the dolls, and other representations of the design. I've even worked it in an artsy way into the decor. I have a "meditation space" that even has Guadalupe and Goddess throw pillows...The whole ROOM is an altar of sorts to Peace and the Gods, though really I just meant to create a small, peaceful downtime space for me and my roomie to relax in...

Yeah, I know it's "fiction" I am displaying, but those myths are a part of the Cosmos, and they are connected to my Deities, and I enjoy exploring them in this way. It's fun, it's creative, and it keeps me centered in my spirituality in a unique and amusing way.

No Barbie, isn't on the altar, but her 22" big porcelain sisters are and they happily share space with statues of Isis, Sekhment, Bast, Mary etc...

:)

Morrighan

[MorningDove030202]

Is this possible? Could elements of our current work of fiction be deified?

A: They already have been! I read about a LOTR based ritual in a pagan zine that I now can't recall which one. (sorry!) In this ritual basicly Tom Bombadill was connected with The Green Man and Gladriel was the Moon Goddess. I've come across many charachters that remined me of this or that god, and I could see using fictional names if it helps to enhanse your ritual experience for you. But I personaly wouldn't go around randomly worshiping fictional charachters..... I guess that depends on your view of mythology...maybe I do worship fictional charchters!?! I can see it both ways. Maybe faith makes it real?

Fiction is in the mind of the beholder, just like Reality.

Dove

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

....
I always hated Tom Bombadil and I always will. The only reason he was there was as a catalyst for cool Barrow-wight stuffness.
The theology of the whole DragonLance thing always intruiged me because it was karma operating on a really, really big scale - the Cataclysm was caused by an imbalance of 'good', requiring a massive disaster to cause pain and suffering that the balance be righted. Well, yes, there was that whole Edict of Thought Control and everything, but, well, in the end it was about an excess of good. The notion that good and evil were both necessary was a very fascinating concept to me at the time, and still is, really. Takhisis was, and is, one of the most interesting figureheads of that necessary evil. Although I may be biased as I am quite firmly on 'her' side.
Come to think of it, she's a threefold goddess, too - Dragonqueen, Temptress, and Dark Warrior....and then the Dragonqueen has five heads...wow, I could really start investing that with some crazy Gardnerian-style numerology there!

[whisper54]

This discussion is why I read a lot of history books. I think that if the same amount of energy spent reading fiction was put into a search for the truth in our ancient past then there would be no need for confusion. In fact there is more excitement, more thrilling encounters, better heroes and mysteries than any amount of fiction. Read the sacking of Carthage for example, Hannible and his elephants crossing the alps. The conquests' of Alexander and his search for immortality. The exploits of Marko Polo and his time with Kubla Khan are amazing. We shouldn't have to invent Heroes when there are so many real ones.

[MorningDove030202]

Ya, but worshiping a being that was once just a real person is just not Godlike enough for me. I mean who want's to worship a person?
Dove


This discussion is why I read a lot of history books. I think that if the same amount of energy spent reading fiction was put into a search for the truth in our ancient past then there would be no need for confusion. In fact there is more excitement, more thrilling encounters, better heroes and mysteries than any amount of fiction. Read the sacking of Carthage for example, Hannible and his elephants crossing the alps. The conquests' of Alexander and his search for immortality. The exploits of Marko Polo and his time with Kubla Khan are amazing. We shouldn't have to invent Heroes when there are so many real ones.

[Loopaleigh]

I can totaly see the concept as plausible. And one doesn't even have to wait 2,000 years to see it already influencing our culture.
I was about 10 or 11 when Star Wars came out, right about the time I started questioning my religious upbringing and my own thoughts about Deity and the Nature of the Divine.
The concept of the Force made perfect sense to me and incouraged me to think beyond what I had been conventionaly taught. I remember secretly wishing there really was a religion built around it. (Maybe I still do..... :uhhuhuh: )
As to what future influence our modern day pop culture might have....who knows....I think if people relate to it and get something out of it, anything is possible.
Even Elvis already has his own religion!

[peggarty]

Elvis has his own religion??? I laughed my ass off when I read that "article" on Barbie! I could actually believe that some fictional characters would be revered in years to come. But how about real life people? What about such as Princess Diana? She was worshipped in life!