Celtic Language Prayers

[John_Mischief]

I'm an Irish Recon, but I don't know the language. I fully plan to start studying it eventually, but for now I really can't commit myself.

I do, however, think it's a really important way to connect with the ancestors, Gods, and lands of the Celts. I would really like to at least know a few prayers in Gaelic so that I could get used to speaking it everyday.

So, my idea is that if any really lovely speakers of Gaelic, Cymric, or any other Celtic language could post any prayers that they know, or maybe even that us non-speakers suggest, in the respective language (phonetic would be amazing, as I have a lot of trouble pronouncing a lot of Gaelic words and I imagine other people do to - it's really hard!).

Does this sound like a good thing to anyone else? I realize that I won't really be doing most of the work here, so I can see how it would seem like a good idea to me and a bad one to others.

[Ron]

I have never said a prayer in any Gaelic or Cymraeg. I have chants, but they are dear to me, and not really for strangers... no offense, just I've spent my time developing them, and they are sacred to me.

I can provide phonetic translations of Cymraeg if anyone is therein looking. But I do not have any prayers of mine own.

Just to lament that point, I looked quite intensely for a Gwyl Dewi ("St." David's Day) grace to read at my sisters table, which had Daffodils and Cymric flags and the two Davids present sitting at the heads of the table - yet I was unable to find one. My brother, one of the Davids, also looked - and he sings in the Toronto Male Welsh Voice Choir, but he found nuffin.

Tough muffin. Sorry I can not be of more assistance.

P.s. At any rate, the language of the prayer does not truly effect it's meaning or power - in my belief. Ciao.

rhys.

[DraoinanDuanaire]

I'm not comfortable sharing familial prayers.

I think that a great method for non-speakers to ease into the language is prayer, though. Start simple, with terms you'll remember. Learn how different usages change the words, their pronunciation. Don't try to handle an hour-long votive liturgy, just keep it simple and build from there.

[blackroseivy]

I asked something along these lines, & didn't get too much of an answer, either.

[DraoinanDuanaire]

That's probably because a lot of people are uncomfortable with the translation idea. Gaeilgeoirí (for example) aren't too thick on the ground, and most of us here probably aren't completely fluent. It's sort of like the perennial problem in Ireland of people knowing enough Gaeilge to get by, but being embarrassed to use it because they think they'll mess up and be mocked.

Edit: Also, a lot of people who have spoken proficiency in a minority language often don't have a corresponding written proficiency, especially if they were raised with the language in question as a "home" language in contrast to the "official" language around them.

[blackroseivy]

Now I understand, thanx. I ran into a whole tribe from Donegal in Dublin who still uses Gaelige in front of people, us strangers! :D They ran a hostel.

[ap Dafydd]

It's an act of courtesy to speak to the divinities in their own language! That doesn't necessarily mean it's an act of discourtesy to speak in another language, depending what it is, of course...

Ideally prayer should come from the heart. The charms and rituals I do are ones I have written myself, put down cold on a screen they wouldn't look half as good.

If you are serious about following a Celtic tradition, then learning the language is required. Sorry, there's no two ways about it. I do have sympathy though, I did a short Irish course a few years ago and found it pretty hard going.

Having said that, and certainly as far as Welsh goes, I've found it ideally suited to ritual type stuff because there is a formal, literary version of the language that has that necessary degree of seperation from the kind of way you'd talk everyday. Don't know if Irish is the same in that respect.

You might want to try the Imbas mailing list for some suggestions, it's very good on that sort of thing.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Ron]

It's an act of courtesy to speak to the divinities in their own language! Does that not assume that such divinities have whatever language as their own? is this not presumptious? The languages we speak here are finite and imperfect, perhaps divinities speak a more perfected tongue? or perhaps not. Either way, I find it difficult to make either assumption, as I do not believe that they [the divinities] are of nationalistic Fortunes.

Just my one cent.

[blackroseivy]

Not only that, but some of us really do need a teacher, & CANNOT afford one.

[Ron]

Not only that, but some of us really do need a teacher, & CANNOT afford one.
Some teachers, *ahem* the genuine ones, charge nothing. Attempting to repay them through gifts is not sin. But... all I'm saying is that generous persons are more effective than professional teachers. Because professionals suck. Professional musicians, models... everything. Professionals suck. If you want someone to fix your plumbing hire a tradesman of many trades.

Pax luxque.

[Phaedra B]

Some teachers, *ahem* the genuine ones, charge nothing. Attempting to repay them through gifts is not sin. But... all I'm saying is that generous persons are more effective than professional teachers. Because professionals suck. Professional musicians, models... everything. Professionals suck. If you want someone to fix your plumbing hire a tradesman of many trades.Gee, thanks for the tip. I'll remember that the next time I need brain surgery. :rolleyes:

[Ron]

Gee, thanks for the tip. I'll remember that the next time I need brain surgery. :rolleyes:
Your sarcasm is not appreciated, friend. I still fail to see the point in paying for a "teacher" of any religion, faith, path, theory or study of such things; especially when there are _real_ persons who can do just as good a job without paying a cent.

I was not saying that an uneducated person [in the specific field] would be as effective as an educated person. What I am saying is, that people who become popular and exoctically involved in their work, so much so that they have no life outside their work... suck. Doctors who fall victim to this, are often overtly arrogant, uncompassionate, and unliked by their patients....

To mock my opinion and patronize me is disgusting and unwarranted; I am glad tis not so that you were doing.

[ap Dafydd]

Does that not assume that such divinities have whatever language as their own? is this not presumptious? The languages we speak here are finite and imperfect, perhaps divinities speak a more perfected tongue? or perhaps not. Either way, I find it difficult to make either assumption, as I do not believe that they [the divinities] are of nationalistic Fortunes.

I believe that the Land and its divinities are linked, at least in origin, and through them the people of the land with their language and culture. Therefore I honour the god/desses and powers of Celtia, both great and small, through the language of the Land as it has come down to me today.

I'm not a native Welsh speaker. I learned it as an adult. It was part of my awakening into Paganism (as well as to the other parts of my personality).

Like any other aspect of Paganism, it takes hard work and commitment.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Ron]

I believe that the Land and its divinities are linked, at least in origin, and through them the people of the land with their language and culture. Therefore I honour the god/desses and powers of Celtia, both great and small, through the language of the Land as it has come down to me today.

I see you, Ffred. But are you not the same Ffred that brought up a page of history or two in discussions with me? And, does history not tell us that Cymraeg is not native to Prydein, nay any of the Celtic languages? that they originated East of Gaul? Na?

I do agree with you; the Land is linked with its' divinities. And, there was a time when I would have also agreed that the persons of the Land are linked with the corresponding divinities. But since then, I've lost some Cymric pride, and facisim. Eventhough, I'm pretty much a Monolatrist now, worshpping the Master (¿Lord?) as described in the Mabinogi (but primarily in other folk tales), and through It other Cymric novelties. I just take a different approach to this Master of mine; different than a Chr-stian one.

At any rate, my main reason for losing Cymric fascism and the belief that the divinities are linked with the persons of the Land, is the incredible racist state of Britain, not to mention y Hen Wlad Fy Nhadiau and North Wales. I am just disgusted. I just don't care to believe that the persons of the Land - such rasict anti-English and anti-"Paki" (how I despise this word, knowing that my maternal grandfather's 5 generations past parents were from West India) - could be linked with the beautiful and fair Cymric divinities. Those Welshmen truly are strangers, as the Anglish call them.

I agree that Divinities may be linked with their Lands, but I do not believe that the persons, and thereby their language, is also therein linked.

Just me and my haypenny.

Bendithion y Naf arnwch chwi, Ffred.

_violin_

[Nantonos]

Your sarcasm is not appreciated, friend. I still fail to see the point in paying for a "teacher" of any religion, faith, path, theory or study of such things; especially when there are _real_ persons who can do just as good a job without paying a cent.

I was not saying that an uneducated person [in the specific field] would be as effective as an educated person

That seemed to be, exactly, what your post was saying. You started off with "don't pay a teacher" and finished with "all professionals suck" - a position which, I am glad to see, you now retreat from.

[Nantonos]

Does that not assume that such divinities have whatever language as their own? is this not presumptious? The languages we speak here are finite and imperfect, perhaps divinities speak a more perfected tongue?
And maybe 3,768 angels can dance on the head of a pin. It seems reasonable that adressing a deity in a language used by that deities original worshippers is one way to get closer to that deity. Its not the only way, and not a necessary way, but it clearly is a way; and one that people who practice it find fulfilling and effective.

or perhaps not. Either way, I find it difficult to make either assumption, as I do not believe that they [the divinities] are of nationalistic Fortunes.

I'm glad to see you have now disambiguated deities from nationalism. Language and nationalism are similarly separate.

[Nantonos]

It's an act of courtesy to speak to the divinities in their own language! That doesn't necessarily mean it's an act of discourtesy to speak in another language, depending what it is, of course...

Ideally prayer should come from the heart. The charms and rituals I do are ones I have written myself, put down cold on a screen they wouldn't look half as good.

If you are serious about following a Celtic tradition, then learning the language is required.

Required is a big step. I agree with your earlier points, but can't agree with required. For one thing, the language I would use is as yet imperfectly understood. Much more than 2 or 3 decades ago, but it still onlyhas a vocabulary of 850 words. Having said which yes, i am learning as much as I can about the language. I can't use it for 100% or ritual, though. Also, historically, it wasn't the only language used - classical Latin and proto-Germanic were also used, in my case.... and yes I amlearning about those too.

Sorry, there's no two ways about it.

Yes, there are. Some people do it and some people don't. Its a technique, a valuable and rewarding one, but to say it is required is going too far.

Having said that, and certainly as far as Welsh goes, I've found it ideally suited to ritual type stuff

Just to be clear - you are learning old Welsh, as spoken in 500, not modern Welsh, right?

[DraoinanDuanaire]

If gods care for such things as language (which I'm relatively sure some of them do, in many cases), surely it's the genuine effort that counts. A friend making a sincere attempt at forming their speech closer to that which pleases your ear* is far more pleasant that one insisting you speak in theirs.

(* In sound, not content...that would be mere bootlicking. :tongueout )

[ap Dafydd]

And, does history not tell us that Cymraeg is not native to Prydein, nay any of the Celtic languages? that they originated East of Gaul? Na?

Stripping out the double negatives, I think you're suggesting that Welsh isn't native to the British Isles (you might want to note that Prydain is Britain and Prydein is Pictland, btw) and I certainly wouldn't agree with that at all. As Nantonos quite correctly says in his other post, Modern Welsh derives from Old Welsh, which in turn derived from British Celtic, and not from Gaulish or any of the Continental Celtic languages.

At any rate, my main reason for losing Cymric fascism and the belief that the divinities are linked with the persons of the Land, is the incredible racist state of Britain, not to mention y Hen Wlad Fy Nhadiau and North Wales. I am just disgusted. I just don't care to believe that the persons of the Land - such rasict anti-English and anti-"Paki" (how I despise this word, knowing that my maternal grandfather's 5 generations past parents were from West India) - could be linked with the beautiful and fair Cymric divinities. Those Welshmen truly are strangers, as the Anglish call them.

I think that we have entirely incompatible understandings of the word "fascism". In my understanding of the word, because Wales is an oppressed nation, it cannot be a fascist one. If you compare Wales to Nazi Germany, the differences would be quite obvious. The people who are unable to use their own language in public life are the Welsh, not the English. The people who are unable to find homes in their own country are the Welsh, not the English. The people who are denigrated if they try to stand up for themselves are the Welsh, not the English.

Though there is plenty of evidence that a lot of English settlers move to Wales because of the absence of black faces. Maybe you're looking for your fascists in the wrong place.

I agree that Divinities may be linked with their Lands, but I do not believe that the persons, and thereby their language, is also therein linked.

I didn't of course suggest that the existence of Divinity in a land thereby sanctified its people. Though I would consider that the nature of the Land affects the language and culture that arise within it.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[ap Dafydd]

Required is a big step. I agree with your earlier points, but can't agree with required. For one thing, the language I would use is as yet imperfectly understood. Much more than 2 or 3 decades ago, but it stil onlyhas a vocabulary of 850 words. Having said which yes, i am learning as much as i can about the language. I can't use it for 100% or ritual, though.

Clearly not. If you set yourself the task of reconstructing a language which doesn't have any living successor or comprehensive literary resources, then that presents problems.

Yes, there are. Some people do it and some people don't. Its a technique, a valuable and rewarding one, nut to say it is required is going too far.

We differ on this one.

Just to be clear - you are learning old Welsh, as spoken in 500, not modern Welsh, right?

I speak modern Welsh. There is a distinct lack of 6th century people around these days to speak Old Welsh to.

If there were the same amount of resources available to learn Old Welsh or Old British as there are to learn the modern Celtic languages, I would leap at the opportunity, however.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[MoonDragn]

Ok being Chinese this is obviously not my culture, but I am facinated with the Scots and gaelic and here is an old scotish gaelic prayer :

Bi Bride bhithe, bhana, leinn

"The calm fair bride will be with us"

A prayer to Brighid

[Ron]

Stripping out the double negatives, I think you're suggesting that Welsh isn't native to the British Isles and I certainly wouldn't agree with that at all. As Nantonos quite correctly says in his other post, Modern Welsh derives from Old Welsh, which in turn derived from British Celtic, and not from Gaulish or any of the Continental Celtic languages. I suppose that is a view I cannot protest. All I can say is that when I learned of the Celtic languages, we were always taught that the P-Celtic languages had lost their "original sound", much like Early Latin and Later Latin. Perhaps I am mistaken. Or perhaps the pre-Celtic Brythonic inhabitants of Prydain changed the sounds of their Celtic invaders to match better their own ... unknown. In any light, I have always doubted that teaching of the loss of the "Original sound".

(you might want to note that Prydain is Britain and Prydein is Pictland, btw)
With regards to Prydein versus Prydain... Cymdeithas Gymraeg Ottawa is quite unaware of this Prydein == Pictia. It is plausible and I acknowledge and apologize for my error.



I think that we have entirely incompatible understandings of the word "fascism". In my understanding of the word, because Wales is an oppressed nation, it cannot be a fascist one. If you compare Wales to Nazi Germany, the differences would be quite obvious. The people who are unable to use their own language in public life are the Welsh, not the English. The people who are unable to find homes in their own country are the Welsh, not the English. The people who are denigrated if they try to stand up for themselves are the Welsh, not the English. Regardless of the oppressed state of Wales, for which I greive deeply, expatriot Welsh pride has become somewhat fascist. In Ottawa alone, I am familar with a family who burns the Flag of George and raises one of Naf Dewi (Red Dragon) on a White Field. They also have other rituals like prayers for the rise of the Cymru Plaid party... *[rolleyes]* ... They have even succeeded in correcting the spelling of Welsh street names in this city. I know some that venture to succeed from the Province of Ontario, and form a Welsh Province in Canada... *[these persons belong in an institution]*... it is this which I call fascism. Not the actual persons in Cymru. I apologize for not making that distinction and insulting you. Please give me my pardons.

Though there is plenty of evidence that a lot of English settlers move to Wales because of the absence of black faces. Maybe you're looking for your fascists in the wrong place.
Well said!


Ffred, you never cease to amaze me. If I could get you seated in the Gorsedd I would... but I rekon that it will not be long before that happens anyway.

Cymru am byth.

[Ron]

"The calm fair bride will be with us"
Hmm... well I'm no Scots Gaelic master, but I do not think that this is a litteral translation of that prayer. Also, it just doesn't have the Scots sounds that I'm used to hearing in Scots prayers. I may just be off my horse.

I'd best get back on it. *climbs up onto high horse*

[Nantonos]

Clearly not. If you set yourself the task of reconstructing a language which doesn't have any living successor or comprehensive literary resources, then that presents problems.
It has a living successor (modern Welsh), but I don't regard using a successoror related language as being the same. Otherwise, for example, a Saxon or Norse/Icelandic recon could just use English (also a Germanic language) while claiming to be traditional.

We differ on this one.
Okay. You say its required (but don't do it it seems, on the grounds that its too hard). I say its not required (but try anyway, even though its hard. Hmm.

I speak modern Welsh. There is a distinct lack of 6th century people around these days to speak Old Welsh to.
But there is a distinct presence of 6th century deities to speak it to, is my point.

If there were the same amount of resources available to learn Old Welsh or Old British as there are to learn the modern Celtic languages, I would leap at the opportunity, however.
Well there are some, and I am using them. I appreciate it takes more effort, but then, I am not the one who is saying that such effort is a necessary prerequisite (you are).

My point was that if you are going to say that a language is required, then it needs to be the language that is contemporary with the deities not the one that is derived from it but separated by many centuries. Because these are not the same at all. If the point is to get into the mindet, appreciate the clever alliteration and punning and linguistic artistry, hear the same sounds - then it does need to be the same, no?

[odubhain]

Some teachers, *ahem* the genuine ones, charge nothing. Attempting to repay them through gifts is not sin. But... all I'm saying is that generous persons are more effective than professional teachers. Because professionals suck. Professional musicians, models... everything. Professionals suck. If you want someone to fix your plumbing hire a tradesman of many trades.

Pax luxque.

One wonders if this approach extends to doctors, lawyers, airline pilots, police, firemen, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers?

Searles

[blackroseivy]

We have something we're good at, we gat paid. It's called surviving in a monetary economy - n'est-ce pas?

[Ron]

One wonders if this approach extends to doctors, lawyers, airline pilots, police, firemen, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers?

SearlesOne has already answered this blind notion.

He who wonders this: has missed, or does not accord to the point which I made.

[Ron]

We have something we're good at, we gat paid. It's called surviving in a monetary economy - n'est-ce pas?
Ouais, mais il faut se souvienir de faire un bon job et. . un job.

Yes, but we must remember that there are jobs well-done and. . . jobs.

[MoonDragn]

Hmm... well I'm no Scots Gaelic master, but I do not think that this is a litteral translation of that prayer. Also, it just doesn't have the Scots sounds that I'm used to hearing in Scots prayers. I may just be off my horse.

I'd best get back on it. *climbs up onto high horse*

It may not be a literal translation, but since when does a language always use the literal translated meaning?

Here is something I found on the web that contains the phrase I posted earlier. Apparently from some old scottish hymn

http://www.geocities.com/celticwell/ejournal/imbolc/prayers.htm

[DraoinanDuanaire]

Regardless of the oppressed state of Wales, for which I greive deeply, expatriot Welsh pride has become somewhat fascist. In Ottawa alone, I am familar with a family who burns the Flag of George and raises one of Naf Dewi (Red Dragon) on a White Field. They also have other rituals like prayers for the rise of the Cymru Plaid party... *[rolleyes]* ... They have even succeeded in correcting the spelling of Welsh street names in this city. I know some that venture to succeed from the Province of Ontario, and form a Welsh Province in Canada...

I fail to see the problem here.

:cheers:

[Ron]

It may not be a literal translation, but since when does a language always use the literal translated meaning?

Here is something I found on the web that contains the phrase I posted earlier. Apparently from some old scottish hymn

http://www.geocities.com/celticwell/ejournal/imbolc/prayers.htm
Oh. Like I said, I was off my horse. My apologies.

[ap Dafydd]

I suppose that is a view I cannot protest. All I can say is that when I learned of the Celtic languages, we were always taught that the P-Celtic languages had lost their "original sound", much like Early Latin and Later Latin. Perhaps I am mistaken. Or perhaps the pre-Celtic Brythonic inhabitants of Prydain changed the sounds of their Celtic invaders to match better their own ... unknown. In any light, I have always doubted that teaching of the loss of the "Original sound".

Languages certainly do change in sound. But I'm not totally sure what you mean about "original sound" in this case. "P-Celtic" would have sounded different from "Common Celtic", just as the successor languages sounded different.

Most people do not now believe that there were significant numbers of "Celtic invaders" in the British Isles, rather that Celtic language and culture was adopted by the natives: that in turn would have meant some sort of admixture from the original languages, of accent if nothing else.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[ap Dafydd]

It has a living successor (modern Welsh), but I don't regard using a successoror related language as being the same. Otherwise, for example, a Saxon or Norse/Icelandic recon could just use English (also a Germanic language) while claiming to be traditional.

Not being that way inclined myself, I'm not sure of the etiquette on that side of the house. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with someone doing it in modern English (or indeed modern Swedish, German, or Icelandic)

Okay. You say its required (but don't do it it seems, on the grounds that its too hard). I say its not required (but try anyway, even though its hard. Hmm.

I say that acquiring a Celtic language is required for someone who wishes to work in a Celtic tradition, and have done, and can testify that it's not too hard.

Well there are some, and I am using them. I appreciate it takes more effort, but then, I am not the one who is saying that such effort is a necessary prerequisite (you are).

My point was that if you are going to say that a language is required, then it needs to be the language that is contemporary with the deities not the one that is derived from it but separated by many centuries. Because these are not the same at all. If the point is to get into the mindet, appreciate the clever alliteration and punning and linguistic artistry, hear the same sounds - then it does need to be the same, no?

I think we're getting towards one of the differences between CR and CT here. You are, I think, saying that you need to get a close as possible to the actual way things were done when Celtic Paganism was a living tradition. For me, it's about accepting that the tradition needs to be seen through the filter of the living culture today. As I said, it's a point of difference.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[blackroseivy]

Perhaps I should give up & call myself something different, as I know I'll never be up to all of this, not anytime in the near furture, anyhow... :( Not only that, but if one follows that^ argument, it's generally known that now, the vast percentage of people in Celtic lands speak Gaelic as a 2nd language, if at all...! As one who lives in deep poverty, I do certainly recommend the luxury of learning another (very difficult to come by, unlike say Spanish) language to deepen your experience; however, there are those of us, still enamored thoroughly of this path, who cannot hope to reach its greater heights unaided, & aid is for others in more congenial circumstances.

If my God & Goddess want me to learn Brythonic, it will come my way at some point in my life. The same goes for Goedelic; I had the ambition that I wanted to learn absolutely all branches of both spoken & unspoken (ancient) Gaelic; but it takes funds to be a scholar, & I must exist on the periphery, envious of those able to do more, doing the things I long to do.

[Nantonos]

I think we're getting towards one of the differences between CR and CT here. You are, I think, saying that you need to get a close as possible to the actual way things were done when Celtic Paganism was a living tradition. For me, it's about accepting that the tradition needs to be seen through the filter of the living culture today. As I said, it's a point of difference.

Yes, i think that is a good characterisation.

[blackroseivy]

(Ignorant again: ) What are CR & CT?

Oh wait, Creationist & Constructionist?

[Nantonos]

(Ignorant again: ) What are CR & CT?

Oh wait, Creationist & Constructionist?

Celtic Reconstructionist and Celtic Traditionalist.
Not finding really good definitions just now - tyr
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/library/an%20introductory%20FAQ%20to%20alt%20religion%20druid.htm
http://www.celticcallings.com/resources/religions/paganism/pagan_faq.htm
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=943497&postcount=1
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=62528&highlight=Traditionalist+CR+CT

[Ron]

Celtic Reconstructionist and Celtic Traditionalist.
Not finding really good definitions just now - tyr
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/library/an%20introductory%20FAQ%20to%20alt%20religion%20druid.htm
http://www.celticcallings.com/resources/religions/paganism/pagan_faq.htm
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=943497&postcount=1
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=62528&highlight=Traditionalist+CR+CT

Yeah! That's what I was thinking; Danubhe had me drive up a wall! lol. I tried to reply and say that, but then I got thinking, and I thought that y'all would be using broader terms than Celtic R. and Celtic T. ... but yeah. No worries. :abanana:

[blackroseivy]

So now I'm faced with discovering the fine differences between the 2, & re-defining myself [I]again[I/] (for like the 4th time)... *sigh*

[Nantonos]

So now I'm faced with discovering the fine differences between the 2, & re-defining myself [I]again[I/] (for like the 4th time)... *sigh*

Only if you really feel the need to offer a convenient label for others. I suggest that it is more important to discover what you need for yourself.

[DraoinanDuanaire]

Those labels are only useful when employed to constrast. Don't worry about it.

[skilly-nilly]

Perhaps I should give up & call myself something different.

Really, this doesn't seem to me to be the main point. What one calls oneself is (imo) definately secondary to what one believes, which itself is less important than what one is; making one's belief-title a distant third to more meaningful identity factors.

You seem very interested in labeling and defining, but (still imo) absorbing a mass of impressions, tales, history, and archelogical and anthropological information is even more of a required first step than learning a Celtic-group language. It seems to me that you start by wanting to be a 'Druid' and asking for the minimum requirements for calling yourself one. Why not call yourself a 'seeker' and, instead of cramming for some imaginary qualifying exam, ask what interesting sources of generalized information you can be pointed towards?

You don't need to hire a language teacher---you can go to the library for free all on your own and read everything you can find about the history and folktales of your selected Celtic ethnic group. You can see if there is a cultural association of that ethnicity in your area--many many people from the Celtic countries emigrated to N-E USA and have remembery groups. None of this, of course, will qualify you as a
'Druid' but it will make you a more knowlegable person, and better able to formulate from inside yourself how you would wish to identify to others. And better able to understand what your chosen ethnic group is really like.

This reminds me of a story:
Once, my then-husband and I were watching a movie that my sister had recommended--Sean Penn plays the head of an Irish gang in some NYC slum. The gang comes up against the Mafia, and the second-in-command Mafioso insulted and humiliated Sean Penn's incompetant younger brother.
"O, too bad! I said, "Now Sean Penn will have to kill him."
"No he won't!" said my not-Irish then-husband, "It's nothing that Sean Penn's character hasn't said already....besides it would be foolish for Sean Penn to jeprodize the aims of his gang just to revenge his brother."
"Yet even so." I said.
And then, not 5 minutes further into the movie, the Sean Penn character meets up with the insulting Mafioso, whips out his gun, and shoots him.
"How did you know that??!"
"He had to, neh?"

Now I'm not advocating shooting people who dis your family members, but you do have to understand the mind-set than makes it inevitable.

[Ron]

Only if you really feel the need to offer a convenient label for others. I suggest that it is more important to discover what you need for yourself.
Seriously! Why is a label so important. When people ask me if it's true that I'm a Wicca (which I am not), I say: "I am Rhys.". When people ask me if I'm a Chr-stian (which requires a very complicated answer) I just say: "I am Rhys.".

Rhys is the label I have, and the only one I need.

[Kern]

I am Kern well on here,Other wise I am Keith or Bran yr Onnen(path name I have chosen).
I just call myself a Celtic Pagan or a Brythonic Pagan if I need a term for my path.I would love to learn a Brythonic(Welsh and Cornish) language to honor my gods in, but I dont believe that I will be punished for speaking to them in English.

Can someone tranlsate this into Cymraeg?

Hail Lord-Beli god of gods!
Hail Mother-Don mother to us all!
Hail all gods,ancestors, and spirits of earth,home and nature!
Bless me(us) with that which is needed to live.
Bless me(us) with understanding.
Bless me(us) with strength.
Thank you all for your blessings and guidence.
All Praises to the gods,ancestors,and spirits of earth,home and nature!

Pob Bendith!
Bran yr Onnen

[Ron]

Hail Lord-Beli god of gods!
Hail Mother-Don mother to us all!
Hail all gods,ancestors, and spirits of earth,home and nature!
Bless me(us) with that which is needed to live.
Bless me(us) with understanding.
Bless me(us) with strength.
Thank you all for your blessings and guidence.
All Praises to the gods,ancestors,and spirits of earth,home and nature!

Yn y Gymraeg. This is translated by me, that means it's probably a bastardization of Cymraeg. lol Anyone feel free to correct me. In some places I have thrown in Middle Welsh grammar, pronouns and conjunctions.

Canmolwch Naf-Beli, duw y dduwiau!
Canmolwch Mam-Don, mam i pawb!
Canmolwch duwiau cwbl, hynafiaid, a ysbrydoedd y ddaear, y gartre, a natur!
Bendigwch fi (ni) ganddyn nhw sydd raid yn byw.
Bendigwch fi (ni) efo dealltwriaeth.
Bendigwch fi (ni) efo nerth.
Diolch i chwi am ch'bendithion chwychwi, a am ch'arweiniad chwychwi.
Bydded y arwyrain gwbl arnu'r dduwiau, hynafiaid, a ysbrydoedd y ddaear, y gartre, a natur!

I hope that's useful. :)

[Kern]

Yn y Gymraeg. This is translated by me, that means it's probably a bastardization of Cymraeg. lol Anyone feel free to correct me. In some places I have thrown in Middle Welsh grammar, pronouns and conjunctions.

Canmolwch Naf-Beli, duw y dduwiau!
Canmolwch Mam-Don, mam i pawb!
Canmolwch duwiau cwbl, hynafiaid, a ysbrydoedd y ddaear, y gartre, a natur!
Bendigwch fi (ni) ganddyn nhw sydd raid yn byw.
Bendigwch fi (ni) efo dealltwriaeth.
Bendigwch fi (ni) efo nerth.
Diolch i chwi am ch'bendithion chwychwi, a am ch'arweiniad chwychwi.
Bydded y arwyrain gwbl arnu'r dduwiau, hynafiaid, a ysbrydoedd y ddaear, y gartre, a natur!

I hope that's useful. :)
Thanks Rhys,now if I CAN EVER learn how to prounounce that!LOL
Pob Bendith!
Bran yr Onnen

[Ron]

Thanks Rhys,now if I CAN EVER learn how to prounounce that!LOL
Pob Bendith!
Bran yr Onnen
x = the 'ch' sound, as in Loch.
r = rolled r. Rrrrrroll yourrr Arrrres. lol

Canmolwch Naf-Beli, duw y dduwiau!
Kaan-mull-wyx Naav Be-lie, dew uh thewiae!

Canmolwch Mam-Don, mam i pawb!
Kaan-mull-wyx Ma'am Don, ma'am eëe bowb!

Canmolwch duwiau cwbl, hynafiaid, a ysbrydoedd y ddaear, y gartre, a natur!
Kaan-mull-wyx dewiae cubull, huh-nuf-i-aid, ah usbrydoethh uh thy-ear, uh gar-tré (as in Trey), a nat-ear!

Bendigwch fi (ni) ganddyn nhw sydd raid yn byw.
Ben-deëeg-wyx vee (nee) gaan-thuhn new suhthh ray'd uhn bay-you.

Bendigwch fi (ni) efo dealltwriaeth.
Ben-deëeg-wyx vee (nee) eh-vo day-all't-rhee-eye-ay-th.

Bendigwch fi (ni) efo nerth.
Ben-deëeg-wyx vee (nee) eh-vo neh-r-th.

Diolch i chwi am ch'bendithion chwychwi, a am ch'arweiniad chwychwi.
Diolx i xwi am x'ben-dith-eëe-yawn xwyxwi, a am x'arweniad xwyxwi.

Bydded y arwyrain gwbl arnu'r dduwiau, hynafiaid, a ysbrydoedd y ddaear, y gartre, a natur!
Byth-ed uh arw-uh-rain gub-ull arr-ni ur thewiae, huh-nuf-i-aid, ah usbrydoethh uh thy-ear, uh gar-tré (as in Trey), a nat-ear!

An mp3 of me saying it is attached. I still could be wrong somewhere. But I try my best to help strangers ... :P

[Kern]

Thanks Rhys your a friend. :ringaroun

[Ron]

Thanks Rhys your a friend. :ringaroun
It's nothing. Again I'm not sure on the corectness of the grammar, and in some places I have guessed between the obscure 'y' as un 'yn' and the 'y' in t^y'. The general rule is to always employ the obscure sound, execept where the 'y' falls at the end of the word. But again, just like Welsh teachers say the adjective always comes after the noun (which is less than 75% true), that rule is a simplification.

Also, after listening to the recording about one hundred times, I realize that I have mumbled over some of the words...

For the record, I've tried to verify my grammar by running phrases I wasn't sure of through google. :)

I'm all ready to have Ffred ap Dafydd come by and smack me for mixing modern and middle Welsh. lol. :spinner:

I rather enjoyed attempting to translate this for you, it's good because now I have it in middle-modern Welsh too.. :) So I can say it too... lol :)

I'm such a wannabe native speaker. :steppy:

[ap Dafydd]

I'm all ready to have Ffred ap Dafydd come by and smack me for mixing modern and middle Welsh. lol.

I'd be more likely to smack for mixing colloquial and literary forms...

My personal rule is always to use the literary for doing anything as formal as a prayer (prolly stems from schooldays and all that reciting of "Ein Tad, yr Hwn wyt yn y Nefoedd" and so on)

My Middle Welsh is pretty much non-existent so I can't possibly comment on the accuracy though some of it doesn't sit with the rules of modern

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Kern]

O well Guess I will stick to the Anglish for the time,I dont believe the gods will get mad at me and kill me,their gods after all and I believe they understand all languages,Its the devotion that counts.
Maybe one day I will have a personal tutor that can teach me in person.I would love to be able to do rituals in the ancient native tounge.
I would also like to learn some Gaeligh,like the prayer above in Gaelic and my path name.
which means Raven of the Ash Tree.I looked for an online translator but with no luck.
Pob Bendith!

[Ron]

I'd be more likely to smack for mixing colloquial and literary forms...

My personal rule is always to use the literary for doing anything as formal as a prayer (prolly stems from schooldays and all that reciting of "Ein Tad, yr Hwn wyt yn y Nefoedd" and so on)

My Middle Welsh is pretty much non-existent so I can't possibly comment on the accuracy though some of it doesn't sit with the rules of modern

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

See I tried that (using the literary), but I must admit that my Welsh is very colloquial. My literary Welsh is pretty much a joke. I don't really understand the posessives in literary instances, for example (as you obviously noticed). There's some rule that you can drop the reduplicated pronoun with "eich" but never with "fy"... *rolls eyes*

So I mixed it a bit. lol. Let's call it Rhysian Welsh. It's like a new tradition of Wicca. lol.

Sadly enough, I'm still enjoying phrases from that prayer and constructing other ones in pigeon Rhysian Welsh. lol.

Ffred, if you'd like to be a broomstick and sweep up my mess, and in turn teach me gracefully, I'd be happy to fly on you over the moon. (lol. what a very strange metaphor. lol.)

[In case anyone hasn't noticed, I'm gitty at the moment - this is what happens when I skip sleeping.]


Caraf pawb.