witches in fairytales...

[gurlygurl2004]

Why is it that the witch has to be evil in the fairytales, why can't they ever be a good witch? Or maybe a princess witch, hell why does the royal family always have to be exclusively Christian?

[Shanti]

I dont know about the royal family but in the wizard of oz ya got a good and bad witch!! :)

[IvyWitch]

Why is it that the witch has to be evil in the fairytales, why can't they ever be a good witch? Or maybe a princess witch, hell why does the royal family always have to be exclusively Christian?
I don't remember any classical fairy tales, including those mentioning witches where they specifically say the "good guys" are Christian. Hell, there's no religion at all in fairy tales. The witches in fairy tales have nothing to do with modern day paganism.

[Valerie]

Why is it that the witch has to be evil in the fairytales, why can't they ever be a good witch? Or maybe a princess witch, hell why does the royal family always have to be exclusively Christian?

Hmmm...maybe because it's fantasy, and the stereotypical idea of a witch is that with green skin and warts, cackling over a cauldron? I think it also has to do with the fact that many fairy tales were written in the early 1900's, where Christianity was (and basically still is) the dominant religion.

[~*Ginger*~]

Because kids like witches better than trolls!

Witches are much more interesting and full of all sorts of ideas, and plans.
Trolls just like to go around insisting that everything is their's.
_happydanc

[piglet]

Because the point of fairy tales used to be to scare children.

[JasmineRose]

Because the point of fairy tales used to be to scare children.

This is true. Alot of the fairy tales, expecially by Brothers Grimm (and there is speculation that their name isn't just a coincidence), used to be very violent compared to what people are familiar with nowadays. Even Mother Goose wasn't entirely kid-friendly.

[-Ember]

Depends on which versions you are reading. There was a fad for a while (Victorians, and the French court tales for a bit... think Lang "blue fairy book" "lavender fairy book") where you get morality fairy tales. Many of the tales that get lumped into the fairy tale category, however have good fairies and bad, good magic workers and bad, etc. And modern versions are rewritten many ways.

[Protagonist]

I can't think of a single Christian fairy tale. I'm sure there are variations on tales that have, in the modern age, been imbued with a Christian meaning, but I honestly can't think of one with an inherently Christian meaning. Fairy tales are quite agnostic.

[Xentor]

Fairy tales are used to teach lessons, much like mythology.

Every culture will imbed their own lessons in the tales, rewriting them all the time. What you see now, is the result of the last rewrite.

Your job: rewrite it yourself, with the premises you set. (Oh wait, didn't JK Rowling do that already?)

[Aidron]

I think a lot of witches in faery tales and the like are not evil, but neither good either. They are both as everyone is both. One side may get more show than the other, and in a few stories here and there you have witches who are just outright evil to the core... but the same is true of good witches in a few stories as well.

Why? Many reasons. Witches, however, are not inherently good. Wiccans... maybe, but being that Wicca wasn't around when most were written and the fact that many witches have and still do have no qualms about using their magic as they see fit often causes them to be deemed evil... just look around, today's Pagan community is no different in this respect.

[Romani Vixen]

Because in the language of the day, the meaning of witch was an evil hag.... or something like that. Words change meaning over time. We've only recently begun to change the meaning of 'witch'... and we aren't done with the process. Only when the majority of society accepts it shall the definition really be changed.

[gurlygurl2004]

I feel like the presence of the evil witch is showing that the good beautiful princess or royal families are Christian, and look at our real life royal families, they don't have evil witches going after them, but they are inherently Christian and fairy tales are somewhat steeped in truth. And one question why does the witch always have to be ugly? Why can't it be a beautiful witch that seduces(or at least tries to seduce) the prince.

[IvyWitch]

I feel like the presence of the evil witch is showing that the good beautiful princess or royal families are Christian, and look at our real life royal families, they don't have evil witches going after them, but they are inherently Christian and fairy tales are somewhat steeped in truth. And one question why does the witch always have to be ugly? Why can't it be a beautiful witch that seduces(or at least tries to seduce) the prince.
Ok, why do you assume that because the villain is a witch, this means that the good guys must automatically be Christian? Name one single classic fairy tale that makes any remote reference to religion at all, or any fairy tale with witches that you can possibly link to classical mythology or wicca.

I hate to rain on your parade, but when these were written, people didn't have anywhere near the same concept of witches that we have today, and it's partly because first of all witchcraft today as we know it is not the same as it was back then, and also, there's no evidence to suggest that all the witches through history were good white witches looking to heal people. *shrug*

Personally I think your adding Christianity into fairy tales is simply another extension onto the "poor witch persecuted by the evil Christians" victim mentality.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I feel like the presence of the evil witch is showing that the good beautiful princess or royal families are Christian, and look at our real life royal families, they don't have evil witches going after them, but they are inherently Christian and fairy tales are somewhat steeped in truth. And one question why does the witch always have to be ugly? Why can't it be a beautiful witch that seduces(or at least tries to seduce) the prince.

I think it depends on what fairy tale and what culture. Fairy tales are inherently mythology, and Circe is a good example of a witch in Greek mythology who is beautiful and tries to seduce the hero. The evil step mother is Snow White is arguably a witch and is beautiful. I'm not sure why the presence of an evil witch would indicate that the family is Christian, many cultures which practice animist religions have evil witches as well. The evil "witch," in any form, is really a cross cultural phenomenon, with different terms, wizard, shaman, medicine man, etc..., being used to describe people who work magic in a positive way.

Like other's have said, people have only begun to reclaim the term witch in a positive fashion in the past 60 years or so, and in many parts of the world throughout time, it has had only a negative connotation, Christian or not.

[gurlygurl2004]

Okay maybe it's not blantant, and maybe some of you are right about the preception of the witch had changed since these fairytales began. But I did read a version of snow white which had some reference to religion (at elast I thought I did when I read it).

[IvyWitch]

Well, reading one version of one fairy tale that may have had a passing reference to religion doesn't mean that even most fairy tales have Christian heroes.

[acorn elf]

Maybe you should read Sorceress by Avi--it shows the perspective of the witch in Hansel and Gretel.

[forestrangergrrl]

not all the witches in fairy tales were evil. the one with the witch rewarding a peasant girl's kindness with jewels and gold falling from the girl's lips when she spoke also has the witch punishing the girl's cruel sister with frogs and snakes falling from her lips when she spoke. it really just depends on the tale. not to mention just how tamed or transformed a lot of the tales have become. i saw someone mention the fact that most of the fairy tales were actually quite violent and not at all suited for children (or at least our perception of what's good for kids anyway! lol). especially the ones by the brothers grimm! i read one of their tales in it's original version, and whoa.... i got pretty spooked! (can't remember which one, it was a while ago!)

[Hedgewytch]

Why is it that the witch has to be evil in the fairytales, why can't they ever be a good witch? Or maybe a princess witch, hell why does the royal family always have to be exclusively Christian?


I think that Witches encompass a specific sort of motif in faery lore, if you follow Jungian thought and philosophy it is that they show us the hidden, shadow side of ourselves.

Are you referring to the actual royal family as in the Windsor's or the figurative royal family that are referred to in Faery Tales? The members of the royal family in faery tales are often subtle symbols for aspects of our own psyche as well.

The King for example standing for supreme reasoning faculties or sometimes the dominant male force in a sovereign relationship with the land, the Rex of the Rex and Regina duo in alchemy, the idea of the Self, that sort of thing.

There are some excellent works by Marie-Louise Von Franz, who was Jung's premier disciple and student, if you are interested in reading more about the Jungian interpretation of faery tales and folklore.

Hart & Horn,

Dawn

[argento_occhi]

I've never seen witches in fairy tales as evil. To me, they were just a different sort of female. You have the passive, young, beautiful, obedient 'princess' who has to have a prince rescue her. Then you have the witch, who's older, (i believe) wiser, and independent. She doesn't listen to men, does things herself. She's your feminist. She doesn't need some smarmy idiot on a white horse to get her out of trouble. Having a feminist hippie mum obviously shaped the way I view fairy tales, even though i grew up in a christian household. For me, fairy tales were all about showing children how to act and behave. Be like the princess, cos everything good happens to her. Mostly, something bad tends to happen to the witch. Entertaining guidlines for parents to teach their children how to behave and give them proper role models. And to show them their place in society. That's how i read it anyway.

bright blessings,
argent

[dr_zeus440]

Why can't it be a beautiful witch that seduces(or at least tries to seduce) the prince.

gurlygurl, go learn something about history, psychology, literature or sociology in their most basic forms. and please, PLEASE, cultivate internal censorship.

[Xentor]

and please, PLEASE, cultivate internal censorship.

Why? Did her post offend you?

[fay]

im interested in fairytales and their origins as i find it quite fascinating. my devised piece for drama A level included aspects of twisted fairytales, so i did more research.
its such an interesting field. many fairytales in their original form are quite gruesome and usually unpleasant. they were certainly not as child friendly as they are today. as a basic example, in Perrault's original Little Red Riding Hood, the story ended abruptly with the wolf eating up LRRD. there was no huntsman or woodsman who saved the girl and her grandma, this detail was later added by the Brother's Grimm.
i havent studied fairytales looking specifically for religious links, but i dont see many christian affiliations within them. i think that most fairytales are without religion to make them more universal.
there are many different types of 'witches' in fairytales. some are evil, some are good, some are ugly, some are pretty. if you look carefully you will find examples of each.
in fact if you really want examples then ask me and i will find references to different kinds of 'witches' in fairytales, however, right now im tired and must go to bed *yawn*
blessed be

[gurlygurl2004]

gurlygurl, go learn something about history, psychology, literature or sociology in their most basic forms. and please, PLEASE, cultivate internal censorship.

Why should I cultivate internal censorship?

[gurlygurl2004]

im interested in fairytales and their origins as i find it quite fascinating. my devised piece for drama A level included aspects of twisted fairytales, so i did more research.
its such an interesting field. many fairytales in their original form are quite gruesome and usually unpleasant. they were certainly not as child friendly as they are today. as a basic example, in Perrault's original Little Red Riding Hood, the story ended abruptly with the wolf eating up LRRD. there was no huntsman or woodsman who saved the girl and her grandma, this detail was later added by the Brother's Grimm.
i havent studied fairytales looking specifically for religious links, but i dont see many christian affiliations within them. i think that most fairytales are without religion to make them more universal.
there are many different types of 'witches' in fairytales. some are evil, some are good, some are ugly, some are pretty. if you look carefully you will find examples of each.
in fact if you really want examples then ask me and i will find references to different kinds of 'witches' in fairytales, however, right now im tired and must go to bed *yawn*
blessed be

Okay a famous fairytale witch that's good, or maybe even grey magick esque? And not Glenda the Good witch from the Wizard of Oz.

[IvyWitch]

Okay a famous fairytale witch that's good, or maybe even grey magick esque? And not Glenda the Good witch from the Wizard of Oz.
It's Glinda, actually.

Why do fairy tale witches have to be good? The stories that have witches as the antagonists are not trying to insult witches. The characters are archetypes. I don't understand why it's so upsetting.....I mean, it's not like the fairy tales were made specifically do people could hate Wiccans.

[Bec_W]

there are many different types of 'witches' in fairytales. some are evil, some are good, some are ugly, some are pretty. if you look carefully you will find examples of each.

Isn't the witch in Snow White beautiful? After all, the only one "fairer" then she was Snow White herself.

I also have to agree that I don't see the Good = Christian and the Bad = Pagan correlation. Probably the only time I've ever seen that is when fairy tales have been translated for movies or television, but not in older forms.

[Djiril]

How about Grimm's The Goose Girl at the Well (http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~wbarker/fairies/grimm/179.html)? It has a very witchy character who is very clearly a good guy.

True, in the end it does say:

the old woman was no witch, as people thought, but a wise woman
but she is still a character who fits the profile of a fairy tale witch without the evil.

[Furi]

I dont know about the royal family but in the wizard of oz ya got a good and bad witch!! :)
But the bad witch was ugly, the good witch was beautiful.

In Sleepy Hollow (movie) the evil person was a witch and was pretty and the other girl was very pretty (Christina Ricci) and was trying to protect everyone with her magic. Ichabod's mum was also a witch but some preist dude killed her because of it..... I really like that movie, in case ya didn't notice. _whistle_

Also, couldn't the heroes also be Pagan/Witches and just not flaunt/use it a lot?? Okay, its a strech but lets not just assume that everyone who is nice is Christian!

[monk3y]

The witches in Enid Blyton books have a vast array .. both good neutral and evil, ugly pretty and indifferent. Digging further below the surface reveals alot more story.

[ap Dafydd]

Isn't the witch in Snow White beautiful? After all, the only one "fairer" then she was Snow White herself.



Have to say I did like Neil Gaiman's treatment of the Snow White story, with the good witch and the vampire Snow White...

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Dragonladyofwater]

well it's not a fairy tale but Casper the Ghost's best friend was a good witch...

[rottencandy7]

Why can't it be a beautiful witch that seduces(or at least tries to seduce) the prince.

Little mermaid? The Disney version anyway. Vanessa was way hotter than Ariel. :crown:

I think the ugliness of the "witch" is a visual for her being the antagonist. i mean if u have a beautiful witch, you aren't going to think she's the bad guy.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Maybe it seems like the 'good' characters are always Christians and the 'bad' characters are always pagans because you have WAAAAY too much time on your hands and a rather noticable persecution complex, as well as a sickening amount of smileys in your signature. Some people have to use dialup, you know.

[Xentor]

Maybe it seems like the 'good' characters are always Christians and the 'bad' characters are always pagans because you have WAAAAY too much time on your hands and a rather noticable persecution complex, as well as a sickening amount of smileys in your signature. Some people have to use dialup, you know.

Excuse you?

[davethevedek]

I would like to see a new series of fairy tale where the evil stepmother is a Kenneth Copland- loving, Benny Hinn- following, Bob Larson giving- money- to fundamentalist Christian! Make them evil! Because they are! The guys in Venom have nothing on the evilness of the Religious Right!! We must prove ourselves as formidable enemies! If we want to survive! The Big Three are too powerful! We must resist!