Honoring the Ancestors

[Maggie]

This is another area often cited as part of celtic practice, particularly druidry. I'm not quite sure that it's particularly unique to celts, but it is considered a necessary component.

Now, druids are believed to have held the histories of the tribe. My impression of what this means is that they would keep the list of rulers, and the deeds of the heroes, and the practices of the tribe. Honoring the ancestors by remembering them, keeping those memories alive, and keeping the ways of the tribe in memory and practice.


Now, IMO in America this can get a little tricky. American is choice and a state of mind rather than membership in any particular culture, religion, or ethnic group. And in one sense every American has two cultures, the national and the family. So--what ancestors should be honored? It seems to me, as an American, that the ancestors roughly equivalent to those honored by the druids would be our governmental and community figures. They would be something resembling the tribal rulers inasmuch as the tribe is made up of individual families.

That leaves the ancestors of each individual to be honored by that individual in some way. For me that's been first a matter of finding out who they were and where they came from. Too many of the original immigrants didn't consider this important. Just last year I finally found the name of "wife of" for one of them. I still haven't found the actual point of departure for some of them.


How do the rest of you see this?


Maggie

[Anubis RainHawk]

Now, IMO in America this can get a little tricky. American is choice and a state of mind rather than membership in any particular culture, religion, or ethnic group. And in one sense every American has two cultures, the national and the family. So--what ancestors should be honored? It seems to me, as an American, that the ancestors roughly equivalent to those honored by the druids would be our governmental and community figures. They would be something resembling the tribal rulers inasmuch as the tribe is made up of individual families.

That leaves the ancestors of each individual to be honored by that individual in some way. For me that's been first a matter of finding out who they were and where they came from. Too many of the original immigrants didn't consider this important.


How do the rest of you see this?



I can see how that makes sense. Many leaders, especially political and governmental could be seen as ancenstors because of their significant change. John Locke comes to mind because many of his writings directly influence the Declaration of Independence. In a way, I guess I could see him as an ancestor, I guess.

However, when thinking of ancenstor, I am really clined to think of my own relatives in the past. The word ancestor evokes a images of indeginous shamanic people. I kind of see them as my ancestors.

In additon to political and familar ancenstors, I feel we have spiritual ancestors. For druidism, I guess you would look at the ancient druids in this way. I kind of see all the ancient pagan practioners my Witchcraft spiritual ancenstors because though they didn't claim the name, I feel many were Witches IMO.

Anubis RainHawk

[Maggie]

I can see how that makes sense. Many leaders, especially political and governmental could be seen as ancenstors because of their significant change. John Locke comes to mind because many of his writings directly influence the Declaration of Independence. In a way, I guess I could see him as an ancestor, I guess.

Any of those whose writings and actions led to the formation and continued development of this country could be seen that way, as they would be the founders and leaders of the "American tribe." And ideally anyway, that knowledge is taught, explained, and passed on in the basic schooling we now require of our children.


However, when thinking of ancenstor, I am really clined to think of my own relatives in the past. The word ancestor evokes a images of indeginous shamanic people. I kind of see them as my ancestors.

And sometimes I get that feeling with certain branches of my own family. I do think it's necessary to understand what each individual means by "ancesters" too, when discussing this aspect of honoring one's ancestors.

In additon to political and familar ancenstors, I feel we have spiritual ancestors. For druidism, I guess you would look at the ancient druids in this way. I kind of see all the ancient pagan practioners my Witchcraft spiritual ancenstors because though they didn't claim the name, I feel many were Witches IMO.

Anubis RainHawk

This is an aspect I've seen mentioned before but I'm rather ambivalent about it with respect to myself. I've had a few experiences that would seem to support it and yet I don't feel I know enough about my background to be able to really claim this explanation. For now I've "tabled" it in regards to myself :floating:


Maggie

[sari0009]

Right now I'm honoring and remembering my grandmother, who immigrated to America from Germany around the end of WWII. I look into her eyes, in a photo taken at the time of her immigration, and they kind of haunt me. That woman fled with small children first from the Communists in Estonia and then later from some her own people -- the German and the Polish. There were times of malnutrition, the death of some of her children, living in barns and train boxcars … She went through so much.

I'm making a life-sized picture art quilt using a rendition of her likeness. The initial life-sized picture I made when planning the quilt has captured my kids' attention and they've occasionally stopped in front of it to pepper me with questions about her and our family history. The project isn't even complete and already it's had incredible impact on our family.

So, I do honor my familial ancestors.

Having read history, archaeology and other interesting things since I was a child, I also honor the ancestors whether individuals (in my country or others), "tribal" or many others who participated in the continuum/story of humanity--We are individuals and from particular branching families and we're also all very much connected in that story.

To us honoring the ancestors stretches across time, continents and cultures. If I want to honor my grandparents, Thomas Paine or things “Celtic,” Mongolian or whatever… then I do.

[Maggie]

Right now I'm honoring and remembering my grandmother, who immigrated to America from Germany around the end of WWII. I look into her eyes, in a photo taken at the time of her immigration, and they kind of haunt me. That woman fled with small children first from the Communists in Estonia and then later from some her own people -- the German and the Polish. There were times of malnutrition, the death of some of her children, living in barns and train boxcars … She went through so much.

Yes, and you're actually fortunate that you know about those experiences. Sometimes they are deliberately forgotten, both in an effort to forget themselves and sometimes in an effort to 'put it behind them' in a new world--or simply because they don't think the newer generations will be interested. There is one woman in particular in my family that I'd like to know more about. The family came on a ship from England--and they were required to bring a barrel of flour, among other things, for meals on board. There were at least 8 children in that family, the youngest less than a year. They went down the Erie canal and settled on a farm in Michigan--and she died the next year. I've often wondered what she thought about this "great new adventure".

I'm making a life-sized picture art quilt using a rendition of her likeness. The initial life-sized picture I made when planning the quilt has captured my kids' attention and they've occasionally stopped in front of it to pepper me with questions about her and our family history. The project isn't even complete and already it's had incredible impact on our family.

Making things! :D And yes, passing on the stories, making those names back into real people, is IMO the best way to honor those who came before you. And I can tell you from experience that finally hearing old stories makes one look at those who might be taken for granted as always being as the child knows them in a different light.

Having read history, archaeology and other interesting things since I was a child, I also honor the ancestors whether individuals (in my country or others), "tribal" or many others who participated in the continuum/story of humanity--We are individuals and from particular branching families and we're also all very much connected in that story.

To us honoring the ancestors stretches across time, continents and cultures. If I want to honor my grandparents, Thomas Paine or things “Celtic,” Mongolian or whatever… then I do.

Because they're people, like you, who were born and lived and died. Yep. To me the worst thing that can happen is to be forgotten, to have no one remember a name, a people, a history. To be remembered by those who come afterward is, I think, a better memorial than a statue or a medal.

Maggie

[sari0009]

Interestingly enough it was my mother, and not my grandmother (meine Omi), who belatedly relayed as much information as she did ... it took my mother about five + decades to reveal what was endured, finally now that she is in her seventies.

Sometimes things are "deliberately forgotten" by some ... and that affected generations of my family in very complex and profound ways -- Because of that, ultimately the push to know more about my family (and honor ancestors) was also the push to understand myself, essentially.

Initially I didn't fully understand all what would come about when I started the quilt and yes, projects like this are ... well ... magical in a way.

[Maggie]

Honoring the ancestors can mean honoring and keeping in memory those of the individual family. It can also mean honoring the culture they came from by learning about the cultures of those families and their historys.

Scholarship is considered to be one of the defining characteristics of a druid these days. The druids could perhaps be called the intelligentsia of their time, in that they held the learning of the tribe. Those who follow in their footsteps also value learning of the 'tribe', in that many are interested in history, languages, the arts, and so on of our contemporary society as well as in learning what is known of the ancient celts. To know and understand what was is important for understanding what is now.

This is true for everyone, celtic or not. Knowing something of the background culture and reasons for immigration for instance, may shed some light on 'oddities' in contemporary family culture. Knowing that my dad's mother came from a German family and that he grew up around a great many of them explains why he still used German phrases his whole life. And knowing that my mother's grandfather was Jewish explains why there are still a few Yiddish words in play on that side of the family. There is one odd custom I haven't tracked down yet: my maternal grandmother was adamant that a purse given as a gift always have money it, even if only a penny. She impressed this on us so strongly that my sisters and I still make sure we do it!

Anyone have an idea? :)

Maggie

[Maggie]

I'd like some imput here! :D

Why is honoring the ancestors important?

Maggie

[KellyP]

Why is honoring the ancestors important?


In my practice, the honoring of the ancestors serves many purpose. I am not sure I can express all of my ideas succinctly but I shall give it a try.

1. The ancestors learned hard lessons, there is no reason for me to repeat their mistakes. When I honor my ancestors, it is generally through recalling the stories they have shared or that have been told through generations of family. As always their are tales of silly mistakes that were made, lost loves, service in wars, etc. By taking time to focus on some particular story or a specific ancestor during a ritual, I have more than once found a similarity to my own life. Or weighed my current crisis against those experienced by my ancestors. If I can apply their life stories to my own situation, they are guiding me even today.

2. I am more like my ancestors than I am willing to admit. Anyone who doesn't believe this has not attended enough family reunions. My wife has pointed out to me several times how my posture and some of my reactions resemble very closely those of my mother's eldest brother. This happening without me spending more than a few hours at a time with him ever in my life. And I admit that it is true! So, I have accepted that I am not alone in this universe as an entity. That whole thing about genetics is true. To honor my ancestors is to honor the process that has culminated in me.

3. Honoring not just blood ancestry but spiritual or nationalistic ancestry demonstrates what we value. Being formally educated in math and sciences, I have included folks like Da Vinci, Newton, Edison, Gauss, etc in certain rites. Around President's Day each year, I generally do a personal rite where I include all past and current President's in the section I normally hold for ancestors. Same is true for Veteran's Day. I honor those that share important values with myself.

4. Being remembered by future generations in the only immortality anyone is guaranteed. So I am keeping my ancestors close to my family and my home through continued inclusion in my rites.

Okay, not sure how much of that makes sense. But I gave it a go!

[Maggie]

In my practice, the honoring of the ancestors serves many purpose. I am not sure I can express all of my ideas succinctly but I shall give it a try.

1. The ancestors learned hard lessons, there is no reason for me to repeat their mistakes. When I honor my ancestors, it is generally through recalling the stories they have shared or that have been told through generations of family. As always their are tales of silly mistakes that were made, lost loves, service in wars, etc. By taking time to focus on some particular story or a specific ancestor during a ritual, I have more than once found a similarity to my own life. Or weighed my current crisis against those experienced by my ancestors. If I can apply their life stories to my own situation, they are guiding me even today.

Yeah. And some of the stories can raise the eyebrows. I have one great, great grandmother who was apparently the mistress of a married man back in Germany, with two illegimate children. She came here with a story of a fictional (as it turns out) husband who didn't want to emigrate and promptly set about making a new life. I always thought Hester Prynne was kinda dumb--I like this ending a lot better! Someone else explained it to me once as not re-inventing the wheel every generation.

2. I am more like my ancestors than I am willing to admit. Anyone who doesn't believe this has not attended enough family reunions. My wife has pointed out to me several times how my posture and some of my reactions resemble very closely those of my mother's eldest brother. This happening without me spending more than a few hours at a time with him ever in my life. And I admit that it is true! So, I have accepted that I am not alone in this universe as an entity. That whole thing about genetics is true. To honor my ancestors is to honor the process that has culminated in me.

I have sometimes found these similarities comforting, even though at the same time they can be really, really irritating! :) My father had an odd quirk to one of his eyebrows, one had a sharply pointed arch. I have it and my both my children do, these days I like seeing it because it reminds me that my father is not really gone, that we all bear parts of him both physically and emotionally. Those connections that can be seen between generations provide something that can give a person a sense of roots, of place.



This is an aspect I'm still wrestling with. When one says "honoring ancestors" what ancestors? I've even got Norse ancestry and I'm not quite sure I want to honor 'goin' a Viking'. Nor are ALL of my immediate ancestors people I'd care to emulate. I like your idea, George Washington Carver is one of my heroes. At the moment I'm working with spinning and weaving, in that sense honoring perhaps my female "ancestors". It's given me a whole new perspective on past daily lives.


[quote]4. Being remembered by future generations in the only immortality anyone is guaranteed. So I am keeping my ancestors close to my family and my home through continued inclusion in my rites.

This one is actually one of the reasons I work on geneaology, particularly those who have ended up as "wife of". They deserve to have their names known. The Vietnam Unknown was finally identified and I simply could not believe those who argued against letting it be known for the sake of a monument, for that very reason. He had lost his name along with his life--how could anyone not give it back to him?

Okay, not sure how much of that makes sense. But I gave it a go!

And thank you! Made sense, and I'm still working on parts of it myself! It's a deceptively difficult issue, once one looks past the simple phrase there are all sorts of aspects to it.

Maggie

[Phi]

Hi Maggie!

As you know I have been away from MW for some months, but wonder if it is still okay to be a late arrival in this COT.

Ancestors. Okay to keep from appearing to digress, I'll use a color for importance statements:rotfl:

Ancestors begin at this end with one's own parents and grandparents and perhaps greatgrandparents if one was able to know them. Three generations. From there, the stories and letters and perhaps old photos of the generation prior to them. Then it's on to the records, usually simple records in an old family Bible and if one is exceeding lucky some old letters, accounts, property deeds ect.

The first triune's importance is obvious: family, and if one is lucky, love. Almost all of us get a lot of why we do what we do and our first moral values from immediate ancestors, the ones we know and the ones who taught us. (Sometimes we get it in a negative way, sometimes in a positive way, but there it is.) It is natural to want to know about them and what makes them tick, why they feel what they feel: "Where they are coming from..." Understanding what one can about them helps one understand more about one's own personal history in this lifetime.

Back three more generations and the personal importance is originally "where did we come from and why?" Then lessons are learned from them if enough can be discovered of their life stories.

Three more generations gets a bit more difficult as the numbers of individuals in the family-tree-roots increases while the records decrease, but the information gleaned can be highly entertaining and also educational. At this point usually one loses track of at least a few in missing information: especially of maternal ties since married names are recorded without maiden ones, and maiden names are father names, not mother names. At the very least one learns the frustrations and patience of research.

Three more? It can be done, but not for every single ancestor usually. Some invariably get lost in lost records by this point. Further research into the entymology of names and place names can be of some value. Nevertheless, by this triune one can usually find one's ancestral country/countries, or at least some of them. Every generation brings to the next generation some of their own beliefs, moral values, joi de vivre, somlemnity, sorrows, and instructions.
Most people in NA have ancestors that had to have a spirit of exploration and daring and/or
a willingness to face incredible hardships for land or freedom. Work ethics and independence of thought can be traced to here often times.

Three more? That's fifteen generations and very difficult to find records that far back. Takes a lot of determination and patience to get this far back. That is a lesson in itself, I guess.

More? Well 17 generations is as far as one can really go back according to something I read regarding the Brehon law...I will try to track that for ya. At any rate it is as far as most can go anyway unless that someone is male and has some royal blood along the way.

The importances given above are personal growth importances. Entomology, genealogy, geography and history lessons are important disciplines that teach one patience and perseverance while giving one some understancing of one's own nurture/nature psychological and moral makeup.

However, Celts called themselves "children of ___" insert appropriate godess such as Danu...or referred to themselves as having "sprung from____" insert appropriate river name such as Rhone, often enough in the various tales to let one know that ancestors were often seen as godesses/gods heros, and that often those ancestor godesses/gods originally sprung from a water goddess/mother goddess/river godess and her husband/consort/god represented by a tree, usually an oak. (sorry about all the slashes:geez: )

Which is to say that it has been important in my own tribe:hehehe: for ages and ages, and this importance-of-ancestors-moral has been handed to me like a family tradition not to be broken.

Okay, Maggie, my wordiness is done:cool: How'd I do?

[Maggie]

Hi Maggie!

As you know I have been away from MW for some months, but wonder if it is still okay to be a late arrival in this COT.

Not a problem! I'm running this as more of a discussion group and in fact left it alone myself for a few days to sort out my own thoughts a bit here!

Ancestors begin at this end with one's own parents and grandparents and perhaps greatgrandparents if one was able to know them. Three generations. From there, the stories and letters and perhaps old photos of the generation prior to them. Then it's on to the records, usually simple records in an old family Bible and if one is exceeding lucky some old letters, accounts, property deeds ect.

The first triune's importance is obvious: family, and if one is lucky, love. Almost all of us get a lot of why we do what we do and our first moral values from immediate ancestors, the ones we know and the ones who taught us. (Sometimes we get it in a negative way, sometimes in a positive way, but there it is.) It is natural to want to know about them and what makes them tick, why they feel what they feel: "Where they are coming from..." Understanding what one can about them helps one understand more about one's own personal history in this lifetime.


Yep, Kelly touched on this too. One of my quirks is wanting to know "why" and to learn about them helps to get the "where they are coming from" which helps to figure out the why. It seems most who have posted in this thread do feel that learning who one's ancestors are is important for this reason.

Back three more generations and the personal importance is originally "where did we come from and why?" Then lessons are learned from them if enough can be discovered of their life stories.

And that actually hits most of the immigrants in my family, I'm only the third generation born here for most. It's odd but there isn't much in family oral history about the whys. One that does is rather amusing. There is one family with an obviously French derived name that considered itself German. They left in a huff after the Franco-Prussian war apparently because their bit of Germany ended up back in France. I've often wondered if they're responsible for the streak of pigheadedness in my family....

Every generation brings to the next generation some of their own beliefs, moral values, joi de vivre, somlemnity, sorrows, and instructions. [/color]
Most people in NA have ancestors that had to have a spirit of exploration and daring and/or
a willingness to face incredible hardhips for land or freedom. Work ethics and independence of thought can be traced to here often times.

Yes, and that's been one of the amusements of tracing the family. I see where things come from. There are few Yiddish words still floating around in the family, and they're off color. I think I would have liked to meet that particular set of immigrants.


However, Celts called themselves "children of ___" insert appropriate godess such as Danu...or referred to themselves as having "sprung from____" insert appropriate river name such as Rhone, often enough in the various tales to let one know that ancestors were often seen as godesses/gods heros, and that often those ancestor godesses/gods originally sprung from a water goddess/mother goddess/river godess and her husband/consort/god represented by a tree, usually an oak. (sorry about all the slashes:geez: )

And this is something I find interesting. Oddly enough, this could be seen to parallel what we have in the States in a way. The "tribal" ancestor would have been recognized along with whatever the history of the individual family was. Anyone moving into the tribe by adoption or marriage would then recognize the tribal ancestors as well as having a line in the individual family. I can't really say there is any one influence in mine, both religion and nationalites are very mixed. The German Lutheran won out by default in my childhood because that's the set of relatives I grew up around.

Which is to say that it has been important in my own tribe:hehehe: for ages and ages, and this importance-of-ancestors-moral has been handed to me like a family tradition not to be broken.

Okay, Maggie, my wordiness is done:cool: How'd I do?

Did just fine! :) I have to say though, that perhaps my questions about this come about precisely because it has not been important in mine. After doing what research I've done so far I've gotten the impression that most of them were glad to leave and saw no reason to preserve the memories of the old country beyond what was personally important to them. The original immigrants did clump up in groups of like nationalities but they started dispersing in the very next generation. One of the Norwegians left (I LOVE his name, Thor) after his wife died. He left the memories behind and started new on purpose here. One of the Swedes changed his name deliberately because he was tired of being confused with his brother. The Brits seem to have come from the poorest groups and came here because they could get land, they don't seem to have had any fond memories either. Has made it hard to research in some respects because very little was actually preserved by the families themselves.


Maggie

[Phi]

I have to say though, that perhaps my questions about this come about precisely because it has not been important in mine. After doing what research I've done so far I've gotten the impression that most of them were glad to leave and saw no reason to preserve the memories of the old country beyond what was personally important to them. The original immigrants did clump up in groups of like nationalities but they started dispersing in the very next generation. One of the Norwegians left (I LOVE his name, Thor) after his wife died. He left the memories behind and started new on purpose here. One of the Swedes changed his name deliberately because he was tired of being confused with his brother. The Brits seem to have come from the poorest groups and came here because they could get land, they don't seem to have had any fond memories either. Has made it hard to research in some respects because very little was actually preserved by the families themselves.


Maggie
In the end there are only so many ancestors that can be traced in any case. Like you said, sometimes they wanted to "start a new life," and changed their names or left no records because of this.
But even if you could have the place of birth and the time of birth of all your ancestors for 900 years, it still might be misleading. For example suppose one of them came from Sicily. Italian, right? Well, maybe, maybe not, for it was a Norman kingdom in the 1050's, and the Normans decended from Rollo, a Northman, Norwegian, I think.
As another example, My daughter's father's ancestors, from Greece, have a name related to the ancient Volcae, so she likely has a double dose of Celtic heritage even though she likely has some Greek too. So even if you find out where they are from, it is hard to know where they came from, you see? It can help to study history and geography, but still gives no guarantees that you would get it right. In any case the maternal lines invariably get lost along the way.
No one can know which peoples, which cultures they descend from in toto. That's why I think the true value of it is in the lessons learned in the process. so to my way of thinking, it's not the end of the journey that's the most important, it's what you learn on the trip... :)

[Maggie]

In the end there are only so many ancestors that can be traced in any case. Like you said, sometimes they wanted to "start a new life," and changed their names or left no records because of this.
But even if you could have the place of birth and the time of birth of all your ancestors for 900 years, it still might be misleading. For example suppose one of them came from Sicily. Italian, right? Well, maybe, maybe not, for it was a Norman kingdom in the 1050's, and the Normans decended from Rollo, a Northman, Norwegian, I think.

And that's my problem with the "bloodlines and heritage" school of thought. It's useful to a degree, but in the end it's only good for informed guesses (maybe) and generalities. Yes, one branch is Norse. Who's to say one of them didn't grab a woman from wherever they were pillaging that season and bring her home? And she's my ancestor? The celts overran Europe on their way west--and they certainly would not have isolated while doing so. A distant relative has been working on a project with others, supposedly tracing one branch of the family back to a 14th century English peer. Uh huh. No guarantee the records are correct--or even that the fathers of each generation where actually who the mothers said they were.

No one can know which peoples, which cultures they descend from in toto. That's why I think the true value of it is in the lessons learned in the process. so to my way of thinking, it's not the end of the journey that's the most important, it's what you learn on the trip... :)

And that's why I take anything back past a few generations with a grain of salt. I once saw a high school pipe band, kilts and all. There was one African American young man in that band--wearing a kilt and playing the pipes. He had to have been driven by a love of the music to play them--can you imagine the comments he probably got along the way? But I consider the soul of a person, their heart drives, more important in the end than documented geneaology.

Maggie

[skilly-nilly]

I once saw a high school pipe band, kilts and all. There was one African American young man in that band--wearing a kilt and playing the pipes. He had to have been driven by a love of the music to play them--can you imagine the comments he probably got along the way? But I consider the soul of a person, their heart drives, more important in the end than documented geneaology.

Maggie

You never know who someone's grandmother was.......

My sister's son had an accidental child that he didn't know about for some years, but after she was known to us my sister arranged with her mother to see her routinely. I met her for the first time a few years ago when I was visiting my sister for the Boston Irish Festival and we took her along to the festival for an outing. She (being raised in a Black baptist environment) had never been exposed to anything Irish. As we were walking into the grounds of the festival, there was (as there always is) an elderly gentleman who is a member of some kind of Masonic-like organization who stands and pipes. She was rivited by her very first sound on bagpipes..."What is that??" she whispered as she stood to listen.
The elderly gentleman (as he always does when he sees children listening) swung into a medly of nursery tunes, to her amazement.

Later, I got to watch her see step-dancing for the very first time, and she was equally transfixed. In the children's tent, I was showing her where in Ireland our grandmother (her twice-great-grandmother) came from, sourounded by a horde of pale, light-eyed, sandy-haired children.....

It's just like the time I went to a Pow-Wow and saw that one of the grass-dancers had auburn hair and freckles.

:T It's an extremely persistant ethnic strain.

[Maggie]

The music will always call to the heart of that very persistant strain...........:D

Maggie