Converts from Christianity [Archive] - MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Spiritual Sanctuary

Kaliel

March 24th, 2005, 11:15 PM

I was part of a Lutheran Church, thanks to my parents. I'll be blunt, I loved being part of the youth group and sunday school group, but a few things eventually changed my mind.

A few more blatant indications were that at my confirmation ceremony the pastor touched my head and tried to fill me with the spirit of christ and I almost blacked out. The girl next to me had to catch me so that I didn't slip away from the railing we were kneeling at.

For one, a Lutheran Pastor made it clear that he believes that as a Lutheran you can sin all you want, and as long as you repent and say you're sorry to Jesus, he'll forgive you.

It was also because of the fact that at my last Christian Retreat to my favourite camp, I was in three days, easily converted to their way of thinking. The seminar was about finding out who we are, and the first day asked "Who" and I replied, "Individual." I was wrong. In the third sermon for the day I was told that we were children of God. The second day they asked What we are, and I answered, "A free love giver." I was also wrong. In the third sermon of the day I was told that we were Lutherans. The last day they asked us why. I replied, "Because God calls us to." . . . . and I was RIGHT. I was so shocked by how easily I had been manipulated that I vowed never to go back to the church again.

Akhkharu Asgard

March 25th, 2005, 12:15 AM

I was drawn to Isis. It seemed more right to me to have a female diety as well. And have been practising "heretic" things with her (as some Christians would say).

I have a thread somewhere else where I talk about some things I hate (and a christian friend) about the Christian church.

Pandoras

March 25th, 2005, 12:30 AM

For all people who 'converted' from Christianity to something else... what is your reasons for doing so?

Because I didn't believe in many (in fact, most) of its creeds and beliefs, including Christianity's claim to exclusivity on God and the concepts of sin and salvation.

Winter_wolf

March 25th, 2005, 01:51 AM

I was raised catholic. Around the 3rd grade it started to not make sense. And when I went to the nuns and priests at my school about the inconsistancies I felt were in the bible and their teachings, I was met with total hostility, told not to question. One actually told me I'd burn in hell for questioning them. That didn't make any sense to me and I started to pull away from their teachings. Around 4th grade, my older brother was taking Latin in high school and I found one of his books on greek mythology. I was astounded that there were 'other' gods that people worshipped for thousands of years before christianity happened. I was so intrigued with it, I started to research all the old gods and the religions surrounding them.

I also did a lot of research about christianity/catholism as well and it's history was not pretty. So much evil has been carried out in its name, so much corruption that I felt I couldn't follow that religion. I had to many problems with the bible and the abuses of power carried out in the christian gods name. :( By the time I was in the 10th grade I had abandoned the catholic/christian beliefs and went in search of a set of beliefs that made sense.

I also looked at the other religions available and none of them fit my thoughts. Then I found a few books on witchcraft and it was like a light came on. Something finally fit to a certain extent. I don't follow a specific path other than where my heart and mind leads me.

argento_occhi

March 25th, 2005, 05:45 AM

OK, for me, Christianity didn't mean anything to me as I grew up. I did tend to follow my instincts a lot of the time, and they led me away from Christianity to Wicca and from Wicca to Kemetic paganism, which is where I am now. So, for me, it just didn't mesh. i got to 14 years old and wanted to find something -- to feel something -- that I wasn't feeling in church. We did move suburbs at the end of year 6, so I had new schools and a new church to deal with, so that may have exacerbated it somewhat.

bright blessings,
argent

Sleet

March 25th, 2005, 09:10 AM

I became incapable of believing in a god who was simultaneously omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving.

AutumnWitchie

March 25th, 2005, 02:55 PM

Recovering Southern Baptist here. ;) I was always questioning what we were taught in Sunday school. I always realized there were things that just weren't explained by the christian viewpoint. As a child, I saw energy in the forms of fairies. I've always had an inherent healing ability and am empathic. The bigest problem I had with Christianity was the attitude about women. That always raised my ire. I'm a treehugger from way back. I just couldn't accept that one group was right,the be-all-end-all, and everyone else was damned. Honestly, finding the Goddess was like coming home for me. She has the warmth and acceptance I had searched for. I did alot of soulsearching because of the Baptist indocternation and guilt associated with Christianity. Geez, now I've got myself in tears....lol. This seasonal changeover with my mood swings always gets me. The Goddess offers me unconditioal love and acceptance in a way I never felt from the church. And She makes sense to my logical side.

sari0009

March 25th, 2005, 03:01 PM

This is not a thread against Christianity, I just want to know:

For all people who 'converted' from Christianity to something else... what is your reasons for doing so?
Im interested.

Having grown up Christian, I actually took the trouble to read the bible from cover to cover. My objections were too numerous and well grounded, I knew why, and I could no longer call myself Judeo-Christian.

Hærfest Leah

March 25th, 2005, 03:10 PM

For me I was raised presbyterian and found I hated church and if I could get out of it I would. I also questioned too much and none of it ever added up or made sense. And after my parents divorced when I was 11 or so no one ever went anymore so I figured that it wasn't that important after all. I could have cared less. My cousin and some friends tried to get me to go and I always made up reasons not too. I never liked the idea of being forced into their stuff and the threats of do good or go to hell, hate these people or go to hell, scare people into joining or go to hell. I find the whole religion contradicting and mean. I have a hard enough of a time being positive without being in a religion who is always focusing on the negative.

My husband was raised Catholic and he never liked it for the same reasons as I.

Lunamoth

March 25th, 2005, 04:15 PM

Wow, all these responses sound so serious.

When I was a teen, I explored various Christian churches, because I was dissatisfied with the one my parents went to. I got very freaked out by the last one though, as they wanted me to destroy all my rock music tapes, etc and there was a lot of those prayer groups where they would touch you and pray. It felt all wrong. And as a teen, I got interested in things like Tarot cards and witchcraft and the occult. I found the spiritual side of it, after the fact, spoke to me louder than Christianity did.

Dio

March 26th, 2005, 11:15 AM

Honestly, if I was raised in a more liberal branch of Christianity, I might not have left. As is, I was raised Mormon, my reasons at ten or eleven were:

--women couldn't be in the priesthood
--I was terrified of going to hell for being fascinated with witchcraft and ghosts
--the girls in my class were SO snotty and rude to me :lol:

edit: whoo thousandth post! :D
I was brought up mormon too. Khuinaset listed some of the same exact reasons I left. Not only that, but I felt so uncomfortable in chuch. I just wanted to run out of there. It never felt quite right. I always found ways to sneak out and sit on the grass outside while my parents were in there.

They would also try to tell me what I could and couldn't think. I remember one time feeling horrible about myself because our sunday school teacher was giving a lesson on having "clean thoughts". Of course my thoughts immediately went to the opposite. I remember having this little battle inside my head...Dirty thoughts vs. clean thoughts...I kept trying to think of carousels and bunnys and happy sweet sugary thoughts, but the dirty thoughts kept forcing their way up. Dirty thoughts won in the end, and, well, I couldn't be in a religion that doesn't allow for a dirty mind...no way!

Pure Ahimsa

March 26th, 2005, 11:33 AM

I was brought up mormon too. Khuinaset listed some of the same exact reasons I left. Not only that, but I felt so uncomfortable in chuch. I just wanted to run out of there. It never felt quite right. I always found ways to sneak out and sit on the grass outside while my parents were in there.

They would also try to tell me what I could and couldn't think. I remember one time feeling horrible about myself because our sunday school teacher was giving a lesson on having "clean thoughts". Of course my thoughts immediately went to the opposite. I remember having this little battle inside my head...Dirty thoughts vs. clean thoughts...I kept trying to think of carousels and bunnys and happy sweet sugary thoughts, but the dirty thoughts kept forcing their way up. Dirty thoughts won in the end, and, well, I couldn't be in a religion that doesn't allow for a dirty mind...no way!

LOL
Well we all know in Paganism we have dirty thoughts, us devil-worshippers and what not. :bigblue:

gurlygurl2004

March 26th, 2005, 11:57 AM

I don't think I ever left Christianity, but I tried to because I was raised by a mom who was overzealous about Church and Jesus and it felt like I couldn't do anything or enjoy life because everything you did or said reflected on you and if you were a true Christian. Even though you could be forgiven for sins and still go to heaven if you got saved, and was evil at the same time, that type of behaviour just wasn't acceptable. Plus when I was around 14 and in a rebellious age, my older sister taught me about witchcraft,(she was a convert too), and even though it was a very long, and dramatic road to where I am now, and happy that I travelled it because without the presence of the occult in life, I may have become a huge, seriously crazy fundamentalist. I don't really think about it, but I guess most of family(at least the ones who know, or see that I don't go to church almost ever) think I'm going to hell. But I don't worry about it, because my own afterlife beliefs that don't include hell, help me out a lot. I don't feel as pressured to be a strict Christian or a strict pagan. I found a good middle.

Nightmelody

March 26th, 2005, 04:09 PM

I was raised Roman Catholic but left it as a teen because I disagreed with the church's position on birth control.

Later I got involed in a Jesus freak group, where I met my husband. The group that I first joined had women clergy etc, but as the years progressed the church changed in its view of women and became more and moer conservative, to the point that grown women had no voice at all in that church.

It was also a Bible study type church, so I was not one of those who had never read the whole thing. Many things secretly disturbed me--the role of women, the genocides, the infanticides, the stucture of authority.... Also I began to realize how fear based our thoughts and actions were(though I am not saying this is true of all Christian groups, the one I was involved with got spiritually abusive towards the end of our time there.)

We left that church, bounced around to some more liberal ones, where I heard about the Divine Feminine, which rang like a bell within me. So I began studying about goddesses, Wicca, Pagan beliefs.

seekerofknwoledge

March 26th, 2005, 09:20 PM

wow, i found all the responses on this post to be really quite fascinating! it's amazing how many different ways people have come to paganism. i personally was raised christian, but always felt called in another direction. long before i even knew what they were, i cast spells as a small child. as i grew up i desperately tried to find my place in a religion that just didn't connect. i went through some very difficult times until i found paganism. it was never that the church and i were mortal enemies, but more that we were not meant to be. i knew what my calling was, and it didn't go along with christianity. so i researched (and still am researching) extensively and came to the path i am on now.

Thorferrer

March 26th, 2005, 11:11 PM

I was raised in no religion, but ironically am very spiritual. Was a christian of my own free will for a few years in high-school and then that changed. Think I wanted to have control over my spirituality instead of my religion, but I haven't thought too hard about it.

My question, have any of you ever considered going back? Sometimes it feels like a comfy home is waiting for me back on the christian side of things, but maby I am just deluding myself. Maybe I still need to explore paths more,... maybe...

Karma Chameleon

March 27th, 2005, 12:25 AM

Élistariel

March 27th, 2005, 12:56 AM

I was raised Southern Baptist. Though from 4-7, I don't recall ever going to church. It never really clicked with me. When I was little, it's the only religion I knew of. Back then, I even thought that Catholic and Christian were one and the same. I attended Sunday school, I remember sitting at our table, reading from our little story books. To me, that's all they were, stories. Sermon was just a time to doodle on the agenda thing, or fall asleep. Sermon went as follows... come in and sit down where ever. Preacher talks, stand up and sing, more preaching prayer, song, offering, well basically it was just sit, stand and sing, sit, stand and sing... We also had this thing where we'd shake the hands to those around us. Don't know what that was for. The only thing that ever impressed me was the fact that I could sing a song I had never heard of, in the right melody? I never had any bad experiences, no hell fire and brimstone sermons, nothing ever clicked for me. Naturally I began to notice other religions, or well, branches of Christianity. I also learned that Baptist meant being baptisted. Yeah, I should have figured that out earlier, but I didn't. I also remember another Sunday school lesson, when I was bit older. We were discussing tarot cards. Okay, THEY were, I was just listening as usual. They kept saying they were evil and witchcraft. All I could think was, "no moron, it's not the cards, it's the people who use them and even then just because they use cards doesn't mean they're evil. One can be evil with or without tarot cards." It was always like that. Nothing ever clicked for me.
My journey into paganism first began with the Greek and Roman Myths. They sparked enough of an interest as a kid for me to take a class in High School about them and Latin culture. I remember someone in my class asking if people still believed in the old gods. I always thought they were "dead" so to speak. Imagine my surprise when I found them alive and thriving :lol: Well that pretty much lit the "pagan candle"
My real interest came through searching the internet for ghosts and paranormal. I started seeing things that Baptist-ist? ism? could not explain...

Nightmelody

March 27th, 2005, 06:29 PM

Have I ever thought about going back?

For a couple years I would read books and websites about paganism, but drop in on a local church now and then. I thought maybe I'd have some type of Christian renewal experience or something. But instead I grew farther apart from it--no longer believed in original sin, being born in sin, needing a savior from sin, that I was an enemy of God without the savior.

Really, I don't believe I was ever wicked enough that my life needed to be redeemed by a blood sacrifice. And if I was guilty of great evil, shouldn't I pay the price rather than an innocent, good man?

I found that the basic tenents of Christian doctrine were not something I believed any longer.

Lunamoth

March 27th, 2005, 09:41 PM

Gong back? Hells no.

I've considered checking out one of the local Unitarian churches, just for the sake of some kind of community feeling (the local Pagan community is apparently rife with political infighting and oneupmanship - sounds like no fun to me), but I likely won't do it. The idea of going back to a Christian church - especially living as I do now in the Bible belt - sounds like it just wouldn't feel right and I'd have to leave right away. To stop myself from laughing.

Valkie

March 27th, 2005, 10:10 PM

Go back... no.
Pandora's box was already open, why would I lie to myself?

MockingbirdOxygen

March 27th, 2005, 10:32 PM

Well I stoped be a Christian because I almost completely disagreed with everything about it and it would be very dishonest to pretend to be something I'm not. I've read and studied the bible and I personally do not like the god in there. I can't and will not worship a god that would burn people in hell for all eternity. That, and there are just too many things in the bible that just don't make a lick of sense.

That's basically how I feel about the hell thing, and it really gets to me...but the sad fact is, because I've had such a great fear of it instilled in me, I still have that lingering doubt in the back of my mind - what if I'm wrong? - and I hate it, and I hate the fact that people will use that fear as a form of control...I dunno... I don't know if I've ever completely stopped being a Christian...yet I also don't know if I ever was one...clear as mud, right? I've been going through a spiritual rebirthing process lately, and the pagan thing feels more like home to me, so I'm not completely sure of what category, if any, I would fall into...but some things in the Bible make sense for me and others don't...but I did have a rather "Christian" thought as I was reading everyone's posts...at least, it seemed as though the question that formed in my head is the first thing that a Christian might bring up to you, so now I'm curious and I just have to ask - to those of you who said how uncomfortable you felt in the church, about how bad you had to get out of there...the "dark" feelings church gave you: did it ever cross your mind that if you told that to a Christian, they'd say the very reason you felt that way is because the devil is in you, and he knows he's in danger of losing his hold on you, and that's why he makes you feel like you have to get out of there?
Note: I myself am not accusing anyone of being possessed by the devil here; I'm putting this in the frame of reference of what the Christian argument would be, based on the standard types of lines I've been given by some of the ones I've known personally...also because my mind sometimes can't help trying to see both sides at once, I guess...

Thorferrer

March 27th, 2005, 10:34 PM

When I am honest with myself, I don't think it would work in the end if I went back to christianity, as I am hopelessly connected with the spirituality around nature, and having now witnessed that this other side is not all horror as some of the lesser educated christians may feel would happen, or at least preach. yet, I miss the closeness of other souls on what seems like a very solitary pagan path. Think I'll go research druidism a bit, seems I might fit there with my nature-connection. Thanks for answering my questions.

Lunamoth

March 28th, 2005, 02:03 AM

so now I'm curious and I just have to ask - to those of you who said how uncomfortable you felt in the church, about how bad you had to get out of there...the "dark" feelings church gave you: did it ever cross your mind that if you told that to a Christian, they'd say the very reason you felt that way is because the devil is in you, and he knows he's in danger of losing his hold on you, and that's why he makes you feel like you have to get out of there?

Of course. I've certainly been in enough Baptist and Evangelical sermons to know exactly how it would sound too. I don't recall precisely the words that were spoken to me once, in a similar situation, but I seem to remember saying something about the fact that deity didn't need me to sit indoors and listen to some self-important windbag drone on for hours on a lovely day, just to know I care.

StarSpiral

March 28th, 2005, 10:58 AM

I was raised Catholic (also went regularly to a United Church with my grandparents), I was confirmed and was even an altar server (within a month of the pope allowing girls to do this work). I was always questioning of Chuch doctrine (especially around women and sexuality) and ideals (I never liked the idea of sin even as I was regularly going to confession). As I grew I questioned more and more. I left the church as a rebellious teenage thing but as I began to long for somewhere I fit spiritually I really began to examine what I believed as opposed to what I though of what others told me I should believe. I realized that I did not believe in an omnipotent father figure, in sin, in the need to be redeemed, I believed in the sacredness of nature, in magic and in the feminine (as well as masculine and ungendered) nature of the Divine. When I learned about Wicca and then Paganism it was a good fit with what I already realized I believed.

My question, have any of you ever considered going back?
Yes, often. I love the rituals of the Church, I love Mary and many of the saints, I love praying on my rosary and attending mass without feeling like a hypocryte, I love the community that belonging to an organized faith group provides, I still love the idea of becoming a nun and living a life of communalism, service and prayer. I would, however, be a pretty radical Catholic and be fighting tooth and nail to allow women to be full members of the Church and against the Patriarchy of the organization (how the Church could function without its hierarchy and patriarchy, I don't know). But I could never return to a blind faith in God or Jesus as my savour.

Athene

March 28th, 2005, 03:37 PM

A semi-convert here. :smileroll

Wow, these posts have been, on the whole, very thoughtful and thought-provoking.

I was brought up in a Catholic school only later to discover my parents were atheists. I was never comfortable in Catholic church. I entered Christianity by my own free will at 16. I don't know what it was about me, except my witch blood, but I was always questioning from about day 2. lol

There was SO much I disagreed with - burn in hell forever, women inferior, male god, the Only Way.....

The occult has been part of my life as far back as I can remember. I held some guilt about it for a couple of years.

After only a year with the Church and mainstream Christianity, I decided to find God on my own. I soon discovered that there was a huge, mammoth actually, difference between Church Christianity and Christ Christianity. Instead of denouncing Christianity, I denounced the established dogma of the Church: I saw the difference. I have have only briefly stepped into Churches since, and for 18+ years have been a Christ Christian.

A few years later I discovered my (biological) witch family and that about 70% were/are Catholic witches, and that to them, nothing could be more natural.

Here's to diverse gods, they were put here to fulfill the need of diverse humans! :steppy:

Hærfest Leah

March 28th, 2005, 05:22 PM

Go back, no way. What would be the point.

gwendar

March 28th, 2005, 06:57 PM

I was a Pentecostal Christian for over 17 years.... But during my 17th year, I began to question my faith and religion, and I had a problem with believing that all non-Christians were wrong. I changed a bit, and I simply cannot believe in (any) god/deity now. It just doesn't work for me.
So I guess I didn't really convert to anything, but my perceptions changed. I'm a pantheist, with interests in humanism/feminism (I believe the two are very closely linked, if not the same), ecology and nature, and some other stuff.... I love acknowledging the wheel of the year, the changing seasons....

cheddarsox

March 30th, 2005, 07:25 AM

I didn't so much convert as I did evolve. There were always things I didn't believe that my church taught me as a kid (catholic), and things I knew and experienced that the church didn't teach about. When I got into my teens, I knew that there were too many things I didn't agree with to stay, and I knew I wouldn't teach my kids, so I left. I attended a variety of liberal Christian churches and had good experiences, and found lots of people who lived Christian lives of love and spirituality but still had their thinking caps on and didn't get bogged down in details.

I began to explore paganism during this time, not as a backlash, but just because it was so interesting, and felt "right". Deep inside it felt right to tie my practice into the seasons, and to recognize the cycles of life in a sensual way.

I never rejected Christianity, I just moved on. And at times I feel closer to it, and at other times farther away from it. I wouldn't "go back", because there really is no going back, there is only moving forward. It is possible that I would move into Christianity again, informed and empowered by my experiences as a pagan. It would not look, feel or be the same as it was before, because I am so different and have had so many experiences.

I'm a pantheist, and I can't honestly see myself ever believing in a big guy up in the sky sort of thing, but there are many thoughtful, spiritual people in the Christianity camp that have bigger ideas about god than what was taught in sunday school.

I listen to Christian music a lot, and many of the songs speak about exactly what I feel in my own life...a longing for the divine, a spontaneous worship, a sense of peace from knowing the divine is with me, the awesomness of the created world, etc, etc. That is something I miss in paganism, music that lets me sing out my joy in my faith. Most of the pagan music is sort of zone out meditation stuff. I need music I can sing to in my car! Here in the Southeast USA there is a group called Spiral Rhythms that has what I refer to as "pagan gospel music", they sing about the joy of paganism. I love them too! They have a website, in case anyone out there needs music they can sing to as well.

cheddar

colusaskye

March 30th, 2005, 03:40 PM

raised seventh-day adventist, minister's kid. baptized at 10.

i was quite the devoted one. church had children's story, and between the ages of 7 and 20, i told children's story (I left the church in my heart at 18).
by the age of 12 i'd taught ADULT sabbath school classes, helped in the preschool and kindergarten classes quite a few times, arranged and performed music for the entire church service (i play the piano & i sang before i got asthma from the air here.)
i tried so hard
i tried so hard and you know what?
people turned around and acted like i was invisible, or like i was some little brat incapable of doing anything.
i really don't think it's christianlike.

in almost every church i've been in, i've been surrounded by hypocrites. they hold such high standards for everything and everyone and if you go to their houses, you realize that it's all a front. they think it's okay to talk crap about the people who mess up the same way they do, though, which is probably why they put up such a perfect front.

my mom got rheumatoid arthritis and parkinsons disease. she hurts, every day, she's hurted for the past 4 years. one year it was so bad that she couldn't step off the curb or open a door without being in extreme pain. none of the medications are working for her.
she prays, every day. she says "god must have a reason, god must have a reason, i must trust him"
she's been trusting and praying for 4 years. in the beginning, she had good days. the good days are gone. she prays harder and she cries herself to sleep.

i tried to associate myself with them after i left. i went to youth group meetings and whatnot, because these people were old friends.
during the summer, my town has a thing called 'farmers market' which isn't as much a farmers market as a night to go hang out, listen to live music buy random trinkets from vendors and eat. i wanted to take my friend from youth group. i went to her house, and her mom was saying, "should we have Andrew (the guy she was seeing) go with you? there are some WEIRDOS out there." we told her we'd be fine, we were picking up MY friend Andrew, and he's been in martial arts for many years, and I've got a lot of friends at farmers. we left, and when we got there, i realized who the "weirdos" were - - ME AND MY FRIENDS. I dress differently, like my friends, we like similar music, etc. The only reason she accepted me was because i was the former minister's daughter. She'd never talked to the other weirdos, she never gave them a chance.

there are quite a few other reasons, but um, i've made this long enough ;)

pixidust

March 30th, 2005, 10:58 PM

Mt reason for converting over was, I felt that Christianity had too many holes and flaws. I also didn't like the fact that every thing you do is a sin. I was never raised that i had to go to church, but another thing that didn't sit right with me was why would you have to get up and go to church and listen to someone tell you for a good hour+ telling you that you are going to hell. Sorry but there are many other ways that i could spend my Sundays.

The whole gay thing is a big issuse for me to...why would the all powerfull God who created all turn "his" back on his childeren because he doesn't approve of being gay.

*gasps*

Those are just a few reasons...sorry i tend to rant big time when it comes to this subject,

Ninjakitten

March 31st, 2005, 07:18 PM

I'm still technically Christian, but I can safely say that I've converted from what most would think of as Chrsitianity.
I actually converted from what I'd call "Churchianity" or "Paulianity". I got sick of 1) the church putting the Christ and the Diety into a box they didn't make for themselves, and 2) the church putting more rules than even the Bible talks about because of "possible temptation" towards "sin". I also got sick of the Church following Paul, and all the condemning parts of the Old Covenant more than anything Christ ever taught and walked, so I try to follow him as best as I can without the Church's "help". I do that by exploring the Bible (yep, still do that anyway, though I see the translational flaws in it), as well as exploring what the Church decided to historically throw out that would challenge Church percieved authority, like I try to look at the Gnostic Gospels, the Apocrypha, talk to others that follow alternative paths (both Christian and Pagan), and I'm more recently exploring Hildegard of Bingen's writings (talked about the feminine Divine an had various visions she drew and wrote music about, and STILL managed to be recognized by even the church as Divine revelations) and the Wisdom of Solomon (in the Apocrypha) which talks about the feminine Creatrix.
I still believe in the whole Christ on the cross thing, but that it doesn't take being a Christian in the Church's sense to be Heavenbound or that being Christian saves you from an eternity separate from the Divine. I find some support in this by what Christ himself talked about (don't ask me to go into that because I am still researching it myself).
I asked last year at Ostara in a circle I was invited to (my first one ever) for the Divine to let me not be scared to find out the truth, and to not worry about what my fiancee or anyone else thought about my seeking of the truth about the Divine. My revelations led me to not forsake Christ, but to forsake what people have made of him and his teachings, and to seek the feminine in the Divine as well, and I have seen an upturn in my life (um, except for depression about financial situations and about my boyfriend until recently) ever since.
I feel the Christ lives in all of us (yes, even Pagans) when we use our hearts and follow a path to goodness and towards love of others and betterment of our world and our spirits, and I see a lot of Pagans that follow Christ's teachings (usually unknowingly) better than most Christians I meet, and find them to be more in line with what it is to be saved. That's part of why I'm here.

djmixon

March 31st, 2005, 07:21 PM

Very well said, NK. Very well said, indeed.

Galaxia

March 31st, 2005, 08:35 PM

Edward

March 31st, 2005, 10:28 PM

Ninjakitten

April 1st, 2005, 11:59 AM

I have a big chip on my shoulder about christianity, this is how the infiltrate educational systems. I went to a christian school 11 years and hated every minute of it. On the fist day in grade 2 they sat us down and made us sing funny christian kiddy songs. Whenever something went wrong, first resort was to take out a bible.

Lots and lots on blindly believing fluffy girl christians, pink bibles and everyone else is wrong. The local church was integrated into the school, and there was a certain amount on in-breeding going on.

Most christians can be nice, but this school just put a whole slant on christianity

(ahh i feel better now after all that ranting)

so after years of searching, questioning and thinking i converted to paganism, in the last year of school (year 12, in Australia)

cheers :hrmm:

Geez! No wonder you turned! In situations like this I'm given proof to my theory that the greatest ally Satan has against Jesus is Christians... whether or not I believe in a literal Satan (especially since I like a lot of Satansists, but they usually don't believe in Satan literally). Heck, I was saying that when I was what I would have considered a fundamentalist Christian, but then I wasn't raised any form of Christian, no matter how much my mom claims she's responsible for me turning Christian in my adult life. She's actually one of the ones that LaVey wrote about in the first pages of the Satanic Bible (yes, I own one).

Mishka

April 2nd, 2005, 04:13 PM

I walked away from fundamentalism two years ago. My husband went first. We were very devoted, sincere believers. Frankly, it was an intellectual decision. The tough questions needed to be answered and we'd memorized the pat answers and some even desperate answers Christianity gave and they didn't hold water. My husband checked out a site about responses to christianity and reasonably and logically it made more sense to him. He actually considers himself an agnostic because he has no problem with a higher intelligence but he does not know their name.

I plunged into studying philosphy, world religions and mythology. I am very close to Judaism, specifically the Reform movement and ethics. (though not converted) Currently I am studying Romuva as I have Prussian ancestry and frankly, Paganism fascinates me especially since I no longer view you as evil and in need of salvation. :lilangel:

My enlightenment began with the condemned books of Harry Potter and now I'm a huge fan. And if you're rolling your eyes, it's for fun, I don't take it seriously.

After reading about mythology and world religions, the similarities, the goals of each, it is obvious to me that religion has nothing to do with the kind of person you are. It may influence you for the better or the worse, there are good and bad people in each, there are extremes of fundamentalism and liberal ideas, but the goals are the same. The very best of any religion or spiritual path is to be in touch with something bigger than yourself, to help understand the world around you, to be a good person, to give you comfort in difficult times, and peace about death and what lies beyond.

I do not hate Jesus or the stories about him, I hate the things done in his name by over-controlling zealots. I was very angry at this subject, my husband much more so, but as I have found a path more true to myself the anger has dissipated and reason has replaced it.

Darakash

April 2nd, 2005, 04:19 PM

RunePuppy

April 2nd, 2005, 05:57 PM

Most of my reasons for no longer practicing christianity have been explained already by others (and they did a much better job of it than I ever could have done :-)...with that said, I came to find myself at a point in my life where I simply found no comfort in my Catholic up bringing any longer. Now, this was a SERIOUS problem for me...I was a very happy little Catholic for most of my life...but, I began to understand that my "faith" was no longer supported by my "religion".

I suppose my path toward truth could not be reconciled with the evidence of "non-truth" displayed by the christians with which I had surrounded myself...so, after floating around with very little faith left, I realized that there actually WAS a valid faith structure outside of christianity that could provide me with the comfort I had lost. So here I be.

That is not to say that christianity is bad...on the contrary, I still hold some of the core tenets to be valuable life lessons...or that I won't eventually feel that a return to practicing christianity is where I should be. But, as someone much wiser than I once said, "there are many paths up the mountain". I happy to report that my current path finds me here with you nice people...:-)

Stormbeard

April 2nd, 2005, 06:01 PM

I had a serious problem with a large portion of Christian belief. I was never raised into a religion at all, I was raised to believe whatever I did choose.

I chose Satan

Avagain

April 2nd, 2005, 08:48 PM

well, i grew up Christian because it was influenced into my parents by their parents that me and my brother grew up that way and were sent to an extreemly strict christian school. you know the whole deal of praying every morning, learning the bible back to front, all that waffle and shinanigan.

my Dad still considers himself a Christian, though my mum is a pagan. so i guess i can say that im educated in both areas, yet i choose Paganism. No condmning, no guilt, no fear. i turned from Christianity a long time ago, though i respect it, i would never go back to it. i just have to be careful how i act around my christian friends and teachers at school. oigh! lol

demonique

April 3rd, 2005, 12:15 PM

Good question. Why did I convert from Christianity? I was one of those devout Christian youths as a child. I loved Sunday School, I loved church, I loved summer Bible camp, I loved reading Bible stories, I loved talking to God, and about God, and so on. I had a spell at fourteen where I was horribly upset that my parents had never baptized me. I never thought to question my beliefs. Hell, I never thought to question *Santa*, either, until I was damn near 13. ;-) I was a questioning child, but most of my questions were answered fairly reasonably. I was also a sheltered child, living a small, Christian community, where the only diversion of faith was the Mormons, who were still... well, Christian enough.

Then I had a crisis at 16, became depressed, lost interest in everything, and began to question everything, too. I still believed, I suppose, in God and Christ, but it was more of a habit than anything. I moved out at seventeen, to another state, and there, my eyes began to open up.

I began to question a lot more, and the more I became engrossed in social issues (abortion, homosexuality, sex, etc.) the more I found that some of my very fundamental beliefs were... not compatible with my religion. I struggled for a *long* time - three, four years, I suppose, trying to mold the Christian God into what I believed. I couldn't see the all loving, all powerful God that I knew as being someone who'd be so intolerant of gays, or who'd allow the millions of unsaved but good people go to hell / die truth death simply because they didn't subscribe to this particular belief set. More molding, less compatibility, and eventually, I pretty well stopped buying into the entire theory. The more I learned, the more I read, the more I *tried* to make sense of Christianity, the less sense I found, and the less I liked it.

And so, now I'm pagan. :D

phoenix1010

April 3rd, 2005, 12:38 PM

I have always been fascinated with witches and witchcraft (almost anything occult or paranormal). I was never really comfortable with churches. I really hated some of the negative ideals about women that the bible has propagated. I took a comparetive religion class in college and became fascinated with different religions especially primitive ones. Since I have joined this path I have felt that I have become "settled" or "grounded ....like I had been wandering and ungrounded before. I am much more happier than before.

Ishtara

April 30th, 2005, 06:53 PM

I don't know if I can really say that I "converted" from Christianity since I never practiced or believed in it, but from a cultural point of view, yes, I definitely used to feel close to Lutheranism.

So why did I change paths? Well, just picture a bunch of Egyptian deities banging at the door and shouting "Hey you, yes, *you*! Are you going to ignore us much longer?!?"
lol, OK, it did not happen quite like that, but it is not too far from the truth...
simply put, They rescued me from my spiritual apathy and I am very grateful for that :hearthear

Lynleigh

May 2nd, 2005, 06:35 PM

When I was growing up I frequented several churches: a non denominational one with my parents, a Nazarene one with my fathers sister, and several different Mormon churches with my friends. I never felt comfortable or welcome in any of them, but I still went because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. As I got older, I realized that my beliefs differed from what I learned in church, and I couldn't logically agree with what I was being taught.

The breaking point for me came when I was at my parent's church and the pastor was giving a sermon to all the children attending about how "obeying your glands" (talking about pre-marital sex) was evil and would be a fast way to get your soul sent to hell for eternity. As I sat in the church listening to the pastor, and watching the parents, I couldn't believe how hypocritical the whole situation was. Most of those parents, and the pastor included probably had pre-martial sex, which was apparently ok for them to do, but it would be a sin for their children and would result in eternal damnation. It just seemed to crazy to me.

Not to mention, I couldn't figure out (and still can't) why an all knowing and all powerful God, would care if two people who weren't married had sex. So, that was the last day I ever went to church. It took me a few more years before I stopped calling myself a Christian.

Would I ever go back?

Never.

Wolffang

May 2nd, 2005, 07:33 PM

I was raised catholic...Never knew what it was when I was little...Didn't really cared...Don't go to church much...But when I was older and moved somewhere else...I started going to church and it seemed that they follow the bible...Alot of things were going on when I grew up...But all I done was to accept people no matter what the bible said...I didn't believed in the bible anyway from some points...Already confused cause the bible had too many versions anyway...Even hated my catholic private school...I felt there are too many rules in this...But when I was 12 I believed in real magic and the unknown...Not sure why but I just do...But most catholics I knew don't believe in magic or the unknown cause they think it's bad...But my mom was the only one that I could talk to about it now cause before I didn't realise it and plus she was catholic herself but that doesn't mean u have to be like everyone else...I read somethings online and I found out about wicca and it just seemed right to me...But I got some second opinions to stay catholic cause of my dad, but I like the path I was going to and thats that but I was very interested to the catholic saints and archangels...But now i'm caught in the middle at the moment..I can't fully convert from being catholic but I'm just not ready enough to even call myself wiccan...So all I can do now is to make my own path and go through my own beliefs...But won't mix too many things that was supposed to be seperate anyhow...But thats all I can do anyhow...

Lewen

May 8th, 2005, 12:11 PM

I converted or rather "left" Christianity due to a deep betrayal in my life from ex-husband #2 and how my local church reacted to my situation.
I originally was on my way to becoming an ordained minister in a spirit-filled and spirit-led denomination as well....back in those days the people in my church used to call me "Joyce Junior" in reference to Joyce Meyer, a well-known teacher/preacher who preached extensively on emotional healing. :eyebrow:

Without getting too personal, the deep betrayal I suffered was handle very callously by the church. I belonged to an online forum that had a great mixture of pagans and christians (it was a site that fostered dialogue between the two) and my pagan online friends were very kind, loving and exemplified more love and care and a great listening ear then the christians who told me to 'get over it' "forgive" and a few other very damaging and hurtful things.

I found Paganism not only through the kindess of my pagan friends, but the greenman called me out of a painting done by Marc Potts which is now my avatar right now (until I decide to change it again) My journey has been going on for nearly two years...I feel as if I'm "coming home" so to speak as I'm picking up right where I left off when I was 19 and it just "Feels" right. (how the greenman called me is another story in itself and very interesting...at least to me..heh heh...)

Do I hate christianity, No. I will take the positives that I learned from it and discard the negatives...but don't we do that in anything that we examine and decide what to keep and what to toss?

As for my training to become a minister....who knows where I'll lead up one day? I still have some of the skills I've learned to help people and one day I shall.

I have found this thread to be interesting and appreciate everyone's input.
:hugz: to all!!! :D

Darkdale

May 8th, 2005, 01:32 PM

I felt a call to return to my ancestral religion. I'm also uninspired by the Christian mythologies and worldview.

thought_on_a_wind

May 8th, 2005, 03:12 PM

I was born in what some might call the "bible belt". I never felt like I was a true part of it. I knew that I knew of magick, and used it (mostly unintentionally) all the time when I was a kid, I'd sense ghosts and such, see them or better yet get awoken by them. For some reason if they would preach that something was evil, I would go about devalidating it, like D&D, I mean how is that evil?? I guess I left the church unofficially at 13 because of all the treachery, hipocracy, and deceipt. My dad had a "friend of the family" who happened to be a preacher, my dad would take us to his church so we could "see the light". The old man got kicked out of that church because he farted. Same thing happened at the other church we went to, the preacher stopped his sermon, and told my dad and us to leave, my distaste grew tenfold because that preacher was hitting on my mom too. Also, the richer part of the congregations had little hellions for kids, I was always the one to get in trouble for beating the crap out of them because they were either bad mouthing my family, picking on my brother and sister, or they stole something we owned. I've been to other churches since then, and (except for one) have seen the importance of draining people of the money they earned through "dues". Since when did religion become an exclusive higher class only membership?

CosmicWhispers

May 9th, 2005, 01:20 AM

I like to call it deconversion from xtianity to a practical spirituality. :graduate:
Simple case of life colliding with religion. As a xtian I was dedicated and
read my bible continuously. I had what I thought was a close relationship
with God (I believe now that god uses whatever religion or path you're
on to establish some kind of relations). Yes, there were things about the
faith that bothered me. However, my doubts were overpowered by a
current of fear. Anyway, life events led to anger. That led to questioning
my fears. That led to an intense study of my religion and others.
Also philosophy. You know where this is heading. With the removal
of fear, to me, xtianity fell apart. I cannot now blame my deconversion
on anger. I worked through it and have found a measure of peace.
Now, it is more of an intellectual response.
"..it was to me a serious reflection, arising from the idea I had
that God was too good to do such an action, and also too
almighty to be under any necessity of doing it. "--Thomas Paine

phoenix1010

May 9th, 2005, 10:41 AM

I agree with alot that has been said on this thread so far. I didn't like being told that I had to do stuff because the bible said so. I also like how I can enjoy creation and show appreciation for nature in my own way. As opposed to throwing money in a plate and singing hymns (can't sing anyway).

Dorian Angmar

May 9th, 2005, 11:38 AM

I was a southern baptist i went to church of my own free will and i kinda liked it then i hada serious relationship with a girl in my youth group and all i heard after the fact was what you did was wrong you need to ask for forgivness blah blah blah.... well i did and they still harped on me bout it. The relationship ended and they still did not let up its been 2 years sence this happened and till i left the church 2 mounths ago they still harped on me about it. They say Christian are suposed to forgive well i saw no such compasion thats why i changed to paganism. You all are more tolerant and much much nicer thank you for a wonderful new religion i can feel a part of and will not criticise my action instead you will try to help me find my error and overcome the problem again thank you for the wonderful religion

Tsuchimaru

May 9th, 2005, 10:32 PM

I found it hard to believe that such a loving god could let the world that we live in exist as it is.

SandStorm

May 10th, 2005, 05:20 AM

I was raised more or less Catholic, my mother is a believer but somewhat liberal (you should have seen her face when Ratzinger was made Pope XD), and my father... I think atheistic... but who knows... So in my early teens I began to feel more interested in Christianity and began to try to understand it further of what was given in school... to finally discover that it wasn't for me, I had some issues with a lot of stuff, but I left Christianity mainly because any of its ways had a relation with my way of see the world and I became an agnostic with some funky ideas about Nature and moral that finally obtained a complete meaning when I found that something called "Paganism" wasn't only something that romans did.

Darkdale

May 10th, 2005, 09:30 AM

I found it hard to believe that such a loving god could let the world that we live in exist as it is.

What's wrong with the world?

Luminessence

May 27th, 2005, 10:58 AM

I converted from Buddhism to Christianity, and then from Christianity to... miscellaneousness. I converted from Buddhism because it didn't feel right to me, and since I was just a kid, Christianity was the only other religion I knew much about. (I officially converted when I was ten, but I'd been dissatisfied with Buddhism for years before that.) When I was about fifteen, I realized that my beliefs really didn't fit Christianity very well. Thanks to my mother's influence, I didn't believe Christianity was the one true religion. I also didn't believe that Jesus was divine. I just couldn't understand the whole Trinity thing - as I said, I didn't think Jesus was divine, and I didn't see any difference between the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I was also disappointed with the lack of genuine spirituality that I fould on the churches I attended. Most people seemed to be there to see their friends and fulfill some sort of obligation. They didn't seem to feel any sort of real spiritual enthusiasm. In my first chirch, our Sunday school spent most of the time coloring pictures and fawning over the four-year-olds. When we moved, I was in a teen faith discussion group in my new church, and they spent most of their time talking about sports. (Everybody in the group but me played at least one sport.) Religion rarely made it into the conversation. I was a very spiritually-focused person, and I was looking for something to fulfill my need for spiritual connection, and I just wasn't finding it. Mind you, I'm not saying Christianity as a whole has a lack of genuine spirituality... it just turns out this way because it's the cultural default religion. In, for example, Tibet, there are lots of Buddhists who approach Buddhism the same way, or so I've heard.

If I'd found esoteric Christianity while I was still a Christian, I probably would've never left. But I feel like I'm done with that path now; esoteric Christianity doesn't call to me like it would have if I'd known about it when I was a Christian.

As it happens, I later found the thing I'd been searching for all along - ceremonial magic. Other than that, I'm still pretty religiously miscellaneous. I'd rather have a religion I could call myself a part of, but I'm pretty sure I'm never going to find one, and I'm making peace with that.

equinox2

May 27th, 2005, 11:16 AM

Hi-

So many people have such interesting spiritual histories! Our separate paths can be long and convoluted, but rewarding too. I’ve put my story online here – though you might want to read just chapters 1, 4 & 8 to get a good feel for why I’m a Pagan today.
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjchap1.htm
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjchap4.htm
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjchap8.htm
I use the metaphor of the wheel to connect to life, the year, and nature: http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/TJPSUM/woverv/wovervhome.htm

Here’s the short version: Around age 19 or so, I started having problems reconciling my Christian faith with simple logic. There were too many contradictions – like:

“if God made the world and humans according to his divine plan from the start, and he is in control of his plan, then why does the Bible explicitly state that most people will go to Hell? Why would God design things that way?” or

“Most people go to Hell, and those in heaven can see them (in the Bible, gospel of matthew). So even if I get to Heaven, will it really be Heaven if I spend it watching some of my friends writhe in agony for all eternity? Isn’t that really Hell for me too?”. or

“if god doesn’t lie, why does the Bible say that God does lie? (2 Thes 2:11)

Then I read the Bible cover to cover and saw all the contradictions and problems there, like the different sets of 10 commandments given in different parts of the bible, or the dozens of other undeniable contradictions in the Bible.

I started to connect with our beautiful earth, and I realized what a spiritual metaphor evolution can be - it connects us with all life by making all of life our brothers and sisters. I realized that we are all descended from people who worshipped nature in stone circles in the Neolithic age. I found a spirituality that is about THIS life, THIS world, and our connections in it.

I finally decided that I had to find my own spirituality instead of just swallowing the one given to me. After a lot of thought and experiences of what I consider the divine to be, I started down the path Pagan Humanism path as described in chapter 8. It has been wonderful! For me it’s a healthy, living, real, and powerful spirituality.

Wherever you end up, I hope it is right for you.

May the stars light your path-

cheddarsox

May 27th, 2005, 06:15 PM

What's wrong with the world?

I second that emotion.

cheddar

Ninjakitten

May 28th, 2005, 02:43 PM

“if god doesn’t lie, why does the Bible say that God does lie? (2 Thes 2:11)

May the stars light your path-

Um, actually, it's not that God lies according to this particular passage, it's that the coming antichrist is to lie by saying he himself is God and performs false miracles and wonders (just means they are of a power not of God), and God doesn't save those who reject him when that time comes. I still see where you are coming from on a lot of contradictions, though. I'm developing my own problems with a lot of things in Christianity, and with God. Like, why do I suffer so much when it prevents me from doing good, for example? Doesn't "He" want me to be good? Is he wanting me to reject the Christian notion of "Him"? I have an anger that is building towards this version of God that Christianity is expressing, despite my open approach to Christianity. The only thing I don't seem to have much problem with is Jesus and following him. I'm just learning that I don't know what that means anymore now that I'm in constant soul-shearing emotional pain of no relief for even a short time of things in my life that are driving me nuts.

CloeOtter

May 30th, 2005, 05:56 PM

Greetings all,

I have read many of the post on this thread, so I can safely say in one way or another many the of others have posted the basic reasons I am no longer a Christian. But I have to say I am not sure I ever really was. I was raised in a family with a few generations of divorces and between living with my mom and then my dad, then back with my mom and going to church with my grandma on dads side at holydays and such I was exposed to many forms of Christianity. The three main ones being Lutheran, Mormons, Johva's Witness's. It was all I knew as available for a while until junior high.

By the time I was six or seven I had 3 horrible things(a car accident, a beating, and one other event) happen that convinced me that I needed to be baptised so I could have the love and protection of god/Christ. I thought I was sinful, but i had not done anything, it was the whole born in sin thing they teach, you know, but that didn't seem right to me-- I know deep down I was not. I thought bad things would continue to happen to me unless I did this. When I finally got baptised at a 11years old, more things had happened and no it didn't stop the next car accident nor a few other things that are just to personal to share. I tried to fit in and be spiritually the way my family wanted but I stoped believing completely when the church we (my mom and I)were part of turned its back on us during a very hard time for our family. This happen during high school for me. By the time I reach college I would not go in to a church any more. And these are just my painful reasons.

I was raised off and on in the mountains in CA, when I was little and all the time growing up I felt energy from things,animals, people & all around. The only time I felt spiritually connected or content was in nature. I knew animals had spirit, I knew I was part of something beautiful an sacred. But I never felt that at church or with those people who taught about that god, our supposed sinful nature, and hell. Its funny now that I think of it for a number of years I was a witch for Shawain/ Halloween. :broomride: Also how could I be part of something that could not love my gay relatives who I would not turn my back on, nor allowed woman to be part of the elders of the church. As may of you know there is only love, acceptance on the Pagan/Earth path/spirituality. And sents I followed my heart and dedicated my life to lady Earth/Sea I have not had one horrible thing happen to me. Letting go of trying to trust and live in that spirituality has done what baptism could not. The gift of knowing that I always had, but was told not to listen to cause it might be from the devil, has protected me and any of my family that would listen with out distrust. Though many in my family (JW's) have nothing to do with me any more, I do not regret fallowing my spirit to the path of the witch. I think I've said enough --sorry this is so long. I really am happy now, not afraid or distrustful, and soooo peaceful. :)

Blessings,
CloeOtter

Shadowsong

May 30th, 2005, 07:15 PM

I didn't like the idea that some of my friends might be going to Hell.

Dove
That's interesting. I was discussing this with a friend of mine who's devoutly Christian and I asked something like, "Well, you accept me since I'm Pagan, but what about your God? Do you think He's going to send me to Hell?" And she promptly said, "Nope. I believe in God's grace, and since God loves everyone, we're all going to Heaven."
She's also one of those 'cool Christians' (pardon the term--can't think of anything else, sorry!) who believes that 1) there are many faiths so clearly the majority of the world can't be going to Hell, and 2) God, by whatever name--Goddess, even--is manifested in so many cultures and by so many names, but it all comes back full circle, almost like most religions do.

MorningDove030202

May 30th, 2005, 07:53 PM

She sounds like UU Christian or a Progressive Christian... and that's cool, but that's not the Christianity that I grew up with.
Dove

That's interesting. I was discussing this with a friend of mine who's devoutly Christian and I asked something like, "Well, you accept me since I'm Pagan, but what about your God? Do you think He's going to send me to Hell?" And she promptly said, "Nope. I believe in God's grace, and since God loves everyone, we're all going to Heaven."
She's also one of those 'cool Christians' (pardon the term--can't think of anything else, sorry!) who believes that 1) there are many faiths so clearly the majority of the world can't be going to Hell, and 2) God, by whatever name--Goddess, even--is manifested in so many cultures and by so many names, but it all comes back full circle, almost like most religions do.

Shadowsong

May 30th, 2005, 09:15 PM

I'm so sorry if I sounded harsh, or like I was attacking your ideas... not what I intended! My apologies. But it is interesting I think to see how peoples' views on who's-going-where vary... My ex-friend was a Fundamentalist Christian and she claimed to be my friend but said, quite clearly, I was going to Hell.
Eh. Whatever works for people... *shrugs*

equinox2

May 31st, 2005, 05:19 PM

Ninjakitten wrote about my mention of 2Thes2:11 :

Um, actually, it's not that God lies according to this particular passage, it's that the coming antichrist is to lie by saying he himself is God and performs false miracles and wonders (just means they are of a power not of God),

Let’s look at the passage:

2Thes 2:11

the coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

This isn’t a big deal either way, but it seems to me that this passage says that the antichrist does “fake” miracles, then God sends additional hallucinations to those he wants to send to Hell. So it seems to me that the lying is a team effort between God and the antichrist. That seems a little silly, but hey, I didn’t write it. If the passage didn’t say “God sends them a powerful delusion”, then I’d agree with you.

Besides, there are other occaisions of lying, such as when God sends one of his spirits to inspire his prophet to lie to a king:

1Kngs 22:19-23

I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
" 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
"So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours.

Anyway, I hope we don't get too far off topic, I'm just discussing a point raised in discussion.

Ninjakitten wrote:

I still see where you are coming from on a lot of contradictions, though. I'm developing my own problems with a lot of things in Christianity, and with God. Like, why………….
The only thing I don't seem to have much problem with is Jesus and following him.

You wrote about some of the difficulties you were having, and they sound a lot like how it was for me at first. The first and most significant thing were simple logical problems, like “If God is all powerful and makes all the rules, why would he sacrifice himself to himself in order to change a rule he made himself?”, or the problems you mentioned. I wrote out some of these and I found it helped. I’ve put some on this page:
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/TJXSUM/tj4xlogical.htm

Jesus certainly has a lot of good ideas. Taking him (especially the gospels of Mark & Luke) without swallowing the other 71 books of the Bible is a good approach for many people. It leads to minority types of Christianity (like Gnosticism or such), and is rejected by all traditional Christianities, but it could work for you. I wish you the best, wherever you end up.

Shadowsong wrote:

"Nope. I believe in God's grace, and since God loves everyone, we're all going to Heaven."
She's also one of those 'cool Christians' (pardon the term--can't think of anything else, sorry!) who believes that 1) there are many faiths so clearly the majority of the world can't be going to Hell,

Nearly all Christian churches reject the idea that everyone goes to Heaven. That is called “Universalism”, and the only denomination that believes that (Unitarian Universalism) isn’t even exclusively Christian anymore. Universalism has been considered heresy by traditional Christianity for at least 1,700 years. The same goes for the idea that a non-Christian can go to Heaven. This is based on many Bible verses, but John 14:6 is used most often:

Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Also, the Bible does explicitly say that most of the world is going to Hell, in Mt 7:13 and other places.

On both those points, I completely agree with your friend. I’m just pointing out that your friend is squarely outside the views of nearly all Christian churches (both Protestant and Catholic), and squarely outside the views of the Bible. I would probably be good for her to keep her views quiet at Christian churches, except for the few liberal ones that are still around.

Take care-

Ninjakitten

May 31st, 2005, 09:14 PM

Okay, looking at the definition of "delusion" in the dictionary after writing what I wrote, you may be right. I'm still reading two ways of interpreting that passage, but you are right in that it wasn't important. I do feel, though (but I'm not scholarly enough for long enough to argue the point via the Bible, nor do I have the mental or spiritual strength to do so right now) that Godde is the definer of what is true, in that all of reality is true despite how our flawed senses see reality (ie, we don't make truth, truth is what it is despite us) and this is because he made what is "real". Sometimes, in order for us to see the truth ultimately, we have to be temporarily decieved. I know that isn't the point in the passages you wrote, but it does give me some solace to know that Godde isn't (hopefully, putting that good ol faith into this one) willing to decieve someone that otherwise would have come to the truth (and perhaps salvation) were it not for Godde's deceptions.
Now that I also think about it, he did harden the heart of Pharoh, also, so that Pharoh would do stuff that "deserved" the multiple plagues sent upon Egypt. Perhaps another way to save the multitudes in a way they can understand? I certainly am not the type of Christian to think the Bible is the ultimate Holy Word of God anymore, if that tells you where in my "fall" I am.

bladeraven

May 31st, 2005, 09:19 PM

I just had a hard time accepting the concepts of Christianity...in theory it was good...but few practice it..the biggest thing I hated was the exclusion of well..everybody...you can have a black man whose a christian walk into a white christian church and you just saw that "look"....

the confinements were just...not me...and it didn't feel right......plus I had an issue with the Stepford Wives

fire_and_moonlight

May 31st, 2005, 09:33 PM

i was raised sort of half and half between wicca & christianity. i thought i was christian cause i belived in God (i was young) and believed in the spirituality of the earth and all the pagan stuff since i was born. but i didnt know it was a religon, i thought it was just fact. cause thats how i was brought up. but when i figured out it was an actual religon, i researched it more and more and grew farther apart from God until i barely believe anymore. now their is just the loving arms of Earth around me, and i am proud to answer when ppl ask what i follow.

equinox2

June 1st, 2005, 12:03 PM

Hi Ninjakitten-

You wrote:

I certainly am not the type of Christian to think the Bible is the ultimate Holy Word of God anymore,

Well, with that being the case, verses like 2thes2:11 don’t represent a problem with your connection to Godde. After all, you probably don’t think that all languages originated at the tower of Babel (Gen 11) 5,000 years ago (scientists agree that spoken language goes back to around 100,000 years ago), or that the talking donkey (Numb chapter 22) really happened, etc. So since those other things are the result of human error, then 2Thes2:11 could be too. After all, many scholars think 2Thes wasn’t even written by Paul, but instead is a forgery by someone pretending to be Paul. Even if it was, then the copying and translation could have produced an error - that happens all the time. So it sounds like there is no problem with that verse and your view of Godde.

we don't make truth, truth is what it is despite us

I think so too. I wish you the best in your spiritual journey. Remember that wherever you are, you are a valuable, caring person who doesn’t deserve mental anguish in any event. Take care-

Ninjakitten

June 2nd, 2005, 01:56 AM

Hi Ninjakitten-

You wrote:

Well, with that being the case, verses like 2thes2:11 don’t represent a problem with your connection to Godde. After all, you probably don’t think that all languages originated at the tower of Babel (Gen 11) 5,000 years ago (scientists agree that spoken language goes back to around 100,000 years ago), or that the talking donkey (Numb chapter 22) really happened, etc. So since those other things are the result of human error, then 2Thes2:11 could be too. After all, many scholars think 2Thes wasn’t even written by Paul, but instead is a forgery by someone pretending to be Paul. Even if it was, then the copying and translation could have produced an error - that happens all the time. So it sounds like there is no problem with that verse and your view of Godde.

I think so too. I wish you the best in your spiritual journey. Remember that wherever you are, you are a valuable, caring person who doesn’t deserve mental anguish in any event. Take care-

Thank you. I've always (um, most of the time) been someone who tries to seek truth but is limited by my perceptions and experiences. You share a lot of wisdom on these lists. Many blessings to you, and to my other fellow seekers of Divine truth that I have befriended on these lists, and I thank all of you for making my perceptions and experiences less limited by sharing all of yours with me :)

Athene

June 2nd, 2005, 10:23 AM

Nearly all Christian churches reject the idea that everyone goes to Heaven. That is called “Universalism”, and the only denomination that believes that (Unitarian Universalism) isn’t even exclusively Christian anymore.

SNIP

I’m just pointing out that your friend is squarely outside the views of nearly all Christian churches (both Protestant and Catholic), and squarely outside the views of the Bible.

Hi there,

Some great new points around here.

I wanted to interject to comment on this idea that gets mentioned a lot around here - that the majority of Christians believe so and so.

If we stated that the majority fo Pagans believed X, would every Pagan here be happy with that? Most likely, many would say - well, while that may be true, it isn't enough.

Majority beliefs may be all well and good for the sake of trying to come up with a definition, but there is no religion more varied than Christianity and announcing majority views isn't reality - it doesn't represent the actuality of the faith's experience and interpretations around the world.

Let's say a room was filled with people, and you stated that the majority of users of that room were male. So what? Perhaps an interesting observation, perhaps useful in a statistics perspective, but totally useless to all the women in the there!

Christianity is about Christ, everything else, everything, is about religion.

There is a world of difference between Christ Christianity and church Christianity.

That Christ is the way the truth and the light, and the Father is reached only through Him, can be interpreted many ways. It has of course been used to divide Christians and non-Christians, but it can also be a unifying piece.
I would suggest that being Christ-like is key, and many non-Christians are Christ-like. I even believe that 'Father' isn't refering to a guy. In context, Christ used the term He, as a man, was comfortable with, but also what the people were comfortable with. Nobody would have listened to Him if He spouted theories using te term Goddess or Mother.

It is also useful to realise, that if yo're interested in scriptural problems, that the Bible was written for seekers. Spirituality wasn't handed over on a plate here. wink

_cloud9_

BlackMagicalCat

June 2nd, 2005, 10:30 AM

Well,may I say,Christianity to me is not a religion,To me it is a friendship between me and God,a bridge to God,a relationship with Christ,where he lives and walks in me,I cant imagine trading my friendship with him for anything in this universe.

equinox2

June 2nd, 2005, 12:45 PM

Athene wrote:

I wanted to interject to comment on this idea that gets mentioned a lot around here - that the majority of Christians believe so and so.

If we stated that the majority fo Pagans believed X, would every Pagan here be happy with that?

Yes, but please note what I said:

I’m just pointing out that your friend is squarely outside the views of nearly all Christian
churches (both Protestant and Catholic), and squarely outside the views of the Bible.

I said that this is the doctrine of the churches, not that I’d taken a poll of individual Christians. I have researched many points like this by checking doctrine. Most large denominations have their doctrine on the web, like these sites:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ , http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html, http://www.mefchurch.org/index.php?id=132, etc.

It is simply true that nearly every single Christian church of significant size explicitly rejects universalism. But don’t take my word for it, check for yourself. :reading:

Now, many individual Christians don’t agree with the doctrine of their own church (and still give their churches money). More Christians seem clueless about their churches doctrine, and support their church not knowing they are helping to teach things they don’t agree with. Data on the numbers of Christians who hold certain doctrinal points is much harder to come by than checking the doctrine of churches – that’s why I talked about churches and not individual Christians.

Why do nearly all Christian churches reject ideas like universalism? I think because the Bible repeats over and over that those ideas are wrong. Most churches at least try to fit the Bible. On the other hand, many individual Christians don’t seem to have studied the Bible much. Even many of us Pagans seem to have actually read the Bible more than many individual Christians.

Understand that just because the Bible rejects Universalism doesn’t mean I think Universalism is wrong. If I believed in Heaven & Hell (which I don’t), I’d like to think that everyone will avoid Hell, (just because it feels more warm and fuzzy).

Overall, I certainly agree with you that we should never assume all individuals of any group are a certain way. :yourock:

Ninjakitten wrote:

You share a lot of wisdom on these lists. Many blessings to you, and to my other fellow seekers of Divine truth that I have befriended on these lists, and I thank all of you for making my perceptions and experiences less limited by sharing all of yours with me.

Thanks! _pounce_

Take care-

Athene

June 2nd, 2005, 02:23 PM

I have researched many points like this by checking doctrine. Most large denominations have their doctrine on the web, like these sites:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ , http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html, http://www.mefchurch.org/index.php?id=132, etc.

It is simply true that nearly every single Christian church of significant size explicitly rejects universalism. But don’t take my word for it, check for yourself. :reading:

Oops... think my point was missed. lol

My entire point was that it doesn't matter what the majority have claimed is doctrine, for the sake of religion this is relevant, for spirituality it is not. It is an inaccurate picture to always focus on mainstream Christianity.

I remember in another thread a made a pint of what I believe, and that it fit into Christianity, and again was told that it wasn't the mainstream view. Now, unless we're having a discussion about mainstream views, why should that be relevant. What matters is appreciating that Christianity (or any religion/faith for that matter) is more than it's doctrines, and much more than the mainstream.

It doesn't bother me if a person loathes Christians or Christianity per se, what I debate against is what those emotions are based on - either personal experience or contrived ideas about the religion.

Why do nearly all Christian churches reject ideas like universalism? I think because the Bible repeats over and over that those ideas are wrong.

I would say that it is because they have been told this is the truth. You also have to be careful about the 'bible says' situation. The 'Bible says', is open to interpretation, but more importantly, there is a 'bible says' train of thought and a 'Bible says in context so we could interpret it as' school of thought.

I find it impossible to state simply, the bible says X'. because meaning and context are inextricable from proper understanding. Despite that doctrine is accepted from literal statements.

I have spent many years getting to a spiritual belief and thinking, ok, this is it, this is where I need to leave Christianity behind. Instead, I find the Bible doesn't contradict itself if you read it with logic, an open heart and mind and as a seeker.

Christianity is one religion that you do not want to pigeon-hole - minorities may be outnumbered, but they exist, and they have existed since the very first days. The very first followers of Christ and subsequent founders of a religion based on Him were not just the Paulians. There were Christians using magic, Christians worshipping a Goddess, Christians fully accepting Mary Magdalene's powerful role and so on. So these guys are in the minority, so what? They existed and continue to exist, and they are Christians.

Mainstream, conservative/liberal Middle American Christianity is not the only Christianity, it's just the loudest, with Catholicism a close second. :smile:

On the other hand, many individual Christians don’t seem to have studied the Bible much. Even many of us Pagans seem to have actually read the Bible more than many individual Christians.

Won't disagree with you there. :devil:

Understand that just because the Bible rejects Universalism doesn’t mean I think Universalism is wrong. If I believed in Heaven & Hell (which I don’t), I’d like to think that everyone will avoid Hell, (just because it feels more warm and fuzzy).

My 'everyone will be saved' article just never seems to get finished. But if you're interested, I could let you know. Scripture can be used to fully support universalism.

Thanks for the discussion, it's always refreshing to find others that truly want to learn.

:smile:

equinox2

June 2nd, 2005, 03:08 PM

Hi Athene-

Thoughtful post! Thanks.

I wrote:

Why do nearly all Christian churches reject ideas like universalism? I think because the Bible repeats over and over that those ideas are wrong.

Athene wrote:

I would say that it is because they have been told this is the truth. You also have to be careful about the 'bible says' situation. The 'Bible says', is open to interpretation, but more importantly, there is a 'bible says' train of thought and a 'Bible says in context so we could interpret it as' school of thought.

I have studied the Bible extensively (and read all of it cover to cover, read the NT many times), and I agree that some points can be arrived at that are not mainstream. However, many Christian churches, have, I think honestly reevaluated everything and stuck with mainstream conclusions. Luther, Calivin, and so many others had no problem disagreeing with Catholicism, yet still rejected the ideas we discussed. Why? I think the Bible more closely supports what Luther and others were saying. Other ideas can be twisted out, but it takes some stretching.

But I agree that some interpretation and such can give different views. The most important thing I’ve learned from reading the Bible has been that each book is different. They are called “books” for a reason – they were originally circulating as separate books, and some people seem to think they are one book just because they are sold bound together today. They were written at different times to convey different religions to different target audiences, so of course they describe different religions. Look at Mark – where Jesus is the suffering son of god (remember that to Jews, the “son of God” was still a human, just as king Solomon is called “son of God” in 2Sam7:14), is secretive about being the messiah, and talks about the coming reign of God. Compare that to John, where Jesus is portrayed as God himself even in the first verse, and talks mostly about himself being God. Or compare the early OT, where there is no hell to the NT, where references to hell are common. Or compare the way someone is saved in MT 25 (by doing good deeds) to how someone is saved according to Paul (by belief, regards of what you do).

In all the books of the Bible, it works better to let each book speak for itself than it does to try to cram the square peg of one book’s religion into the round hole of another book’s religion. We have so many different denominations because Christians seem to think that they all have to agree, so they use one book to start with, then twist the words of the other books to fit the first book. Then religious disputes arise because some Christians have started with books that others twist, or twist books that others have started with.

You wrote:

minorities may be outnumbered, but they exist, and they have existed since the very first days. The very first followers of Christ and subsequent founders of a religion based on Him were not just the Paulians. There were Christians using magic, Christians worshipping a Goddess, Christians fully accepting Mary Magdalene's powerful role and so on. So these guys are in the minority, so what? They existed and continue to exist, and they are Christians.

I absolutely agree. They have as much right to be “Christians” as anyone. But, remember that they had a different Bible, with different books. That’s how they could have those views. The Bible wasn’t put together until most of these other Christianities were exterminated.

It’s amazing to me how many people (Christians in particular) don’t know this. The dozens of other forms of Christianity were all (mostly) eradicated by the Roman church by around 400 CE. If you’d like to learn about those other Christianities, I recommend ordering these lectures:

http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/6593.asp
(audio form)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195141830/qid=1085748569/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6867012-7485562?v=glance&s=books (book form, $20)

If you get them on audio tape they are just $35, the same you probably spend every month on cable. Which will stoke your mind more, a month of cable or learning about these other Christianities? I found that listening to them in my car on my commute worked great.

You wrote:

My 'everyone will be saved' article just never seems to get finished. … Scripture can be used to fully support universalism.

I know – actually, I’m a UU, we grew out of the Universalists, Christians who held that view. Essays like the one you are working on have been written many times, from hundreds of years ago until recently. I’ve seen many essays defending universalism based on the Bible, and I haven’t found them convincing compared to the statements (by Jesus and others) that people do go to Hell. My sister is a Jehovah’s witness, and JWs believe in annihilation, so I’m familiar with the “Gehenna” arguments. But most importantly, I don’t care much since I don’t see the Bible as an infallible source of truth.

Anyway – Universalism is a kind belief that I respect. If you have found a way to support it and still revere the Bible, then that’s great for you. I’ll be out for the weekend, but we can discuss this more next week if we like. Take care-

wolf

June 2nd, 2005, 03:17 PM

I'm another recovering cathaholic ;) here ...

When I was about 13 years old I came to an understanding that the Jesus Road wasn't for me. At 13, of course, I wasn't quite sure WHAT I was finding unsatisfying about it, but that was the starting point of my spiritual questing. I worked my way through a lot of different information and systems, and found myself on the Green Road ... I was a witch long before I knew that there even was such a thing! I experienced aspects of the sacred in very nearly every encounter, and also was working with a strong and active spirit guide. There wasn't a lot of information or people to get it from in the way ago, and it wasn't until I was in my 30s that I found other folks doing the same thing.

Taurwen

June 2nd, 2005, 06:12 PM

I was a christian until about 14 yrs old; started reading books about the atrocities that the church had done in the past (especially to my heritage as a native american) and finally decided, "If these people were so strict christians and still saw the righteousness of their mass genocide, then I don't want to be a christian". The fact that christians could start wars and kill and still claim to follow a Man who loved everyone, was hypocracy. I became a pagan for about a couple of months, and then slowly became christian again realizing that the church was evil, Jesus Himself is Good.

Remember: This is the one you should follow:
http://www.aciprensa.com/Banco/images/cor-jesus.jpg

These are just a bunch of people who masquerade around in white robes
http://www.rc.net/kazakhstan/jp/church-in%20kazakhstan/All-catholic-priests-working-in-Kazakhstan.jpg

Know the difference....

Ena Dreamsong

June 3rd, 2005, 01:40 AM

My father is ordained although he's not a pastor anymore but was for 20 years. I was raised Christian. However, in my teens I discovered an inequality toward women demostrated repeatedly again and again in "the church" which thus turned me off from it. I believe the Bible has been misinterpreted in many instances and that important books were left out as decided upon by the Catholic church. Anyhow, I don't feel that I can have a faith or a reliance on something that denotes the value of women and has "truth issues" I guess you might say. I'm also not one to believe in an absolute truth and believe that one should seek out what is true for them.

Aquarian_Moon

June 3rd, 2005, 08:32 AM

From a very early age, I was pondering how God created himself - from 'nothing' to 'something'. It made no sense to me, and I couldn't comprehend how God could have been around forever, because of the fact he was supposedly conscious and knew everything. I became an atheist long before I was a teenager, because I couldn't accept this all powerful being.

With no faith, and no religion, I stumbled upon a major roadblock in my life when I was 21, and needed to find my spiritual side in order to obtain inner strength. I started attending a Roman Catholic Church with my (then) girlfriend, mainly because her parents and her were both RC. I didn't enjoy it too much because the masses were in spanish, and yet still found myself speaking to the divine outside and in, asking for help in this dramatic life affecting issue. The problem was, the divine didn't have a face for me. I'd never beleived anything before, and now I was starting to for some reason, but couldn't regognize what it was.

I was reaching up to something, and when the life issue went for the worse, and everyone suffered immensely, I knew it couldn't have been the Chrisitan God - everyone had prayed so very much, and then He had tricked us.

I lost myself, and yet also found myself. It took 6 months, and I was finally starting on my own path, for the first time in my life; at the older, but still fairly prime age of 22! I wish I could have found Paganism as a teenager so very badly, and will always feel sad about it :(

Poledra

June 3rd, 2005, 03:29 PM

I moved away from my Christian upbringing as I studied more history. I came to realize that the stories told in the Bible are based on older myths from other parts of the world. This realization led to the understanding that the Biblical story is no more valid than any other religious mythology that was created thousands of years ago. I began to question why I was basing my spirituality on something than supposedly happened two thousand years ago for which I have had no evidence for since.

Paganism for me is based on things that occur daily, monthly, yearly as opposed to many years ago in a different part of the world. I found it more relevant to base my spirituality on natural things that I could connect with on a daily basis.

Poledra

thought_on_a_wind

December 26th, 2005, 08:13 PM

I think another thing that made me leave are those "God" kids. All they can talk about is how they devote all thier time to bible study this, bible college that. I mean you can bring up any thing ANYTHING. I mean you could show them a text book that proves that the sky is blue thanks to the relflection of the ocean on our atmosphere. But if they're in a group, you're always wrong. 'Cause God supposedly said so. AND THAT VOICE THEY ALL SEEM TO HAVE!! You know that goody two shoes, I'm going to heaven because god loves me and not you, I'll never have any part of life nip me in the *** cause I'm God's kid while everything bad will happen to you because you're a sinner who I have to talk to like a deaf dog syndrome. Not to mention the fact that if I do my own blessing at the same table as one of them and they just eat, but the moment I eat while they're praying I've just disrespected them and there supposedly OH SO POWERFUL a trillion times over retranslated book God that man wrote, and which in truth was never meant to just be the thirty or so books, but hundreds upon hundreds if not thousands of different apostle's and such until any true meaning to the dam thing evaporated, if it ever existed in the first place. They ask if you know the one infallible truth, when in fact the only way to gain any truth out of anything is to experience it first hand, so that if there book god is in fact real, they'd not know about it because there is no way, according to there book, that they ever look upon it without dying, and there isn't just one truth, there are many, I am human, as I am now without some mental powers we have latent inside strengthened the world is some what definite, I know that if I need to get to point B from A (short of breaching the space/time continuum) I have to get my lazy self out of a chair and walk. THAT'S A TRUTH!!! Not that fundamental garble about forget about this world we'll move onto heaven because science, and all other religions that are older than our own are all wrong, and those poor fools are more imperfect than me 'cause I have God!! <I guess this would've fit better in the vent what's frustrating you thread, but it is a reason I've recently found in myself that was boiling under the top all those years ago when I left even the smallest remainder of that religion... if it makes any sense what so ever...>

faerymom

December 26th, 2005, 09:33 PM

One of my main reasons for leaving Christianity was the whole "Jesus is the only way - if you are a good, moral person and don't believe in Jesus, you go to hell"

That just makes absolutely no sense to me, and is one reason. There are other reasons - it never totally felt 'right'. I was 18 when I found Wicca and reading about it.. it just felt 'right'. It felt like that was what I was looking for.

Fire's Shadow

December 26th, 2005, 10:16 PM

I didn't necessarily leave Christianity because of the #$% holes as so much the teachings and dogma. I was Catholic and I disagreed with the church on many grounds. I was a very religious person nonetheless, trying to reconcile the differences in the church with my own personal views. I disagreed with the fact that you needed to ask a preacher for forgiveness in order to recieve communion. I also disagreed that communion was ONLY for catholics who went through the sacrament of first eucharist. I also disagreed with many of the 'teachings' of the apostles seeing that they were contradictory in some ways with the true teachings of Jesus.

Then finally, I came out of the closet as a bisexual and accepted the fact that I love guys as much as girls. I started dating guys and a whole 'nother set of rules were striked off my list after I found that out and I basically came to the conclusion that I was FAR from being an actual Catholic. Then I found paganism and the neopaganism movement. A lot of it just made more sense to me than Catholicism ever did.

Renny

December 26th, 2005, 10:52 PM

When I was a kid I had to go to my mother's church... I didnt have a problem with the church or the people in it, the religion itself just isn't for me and I found that out at an early age. When I was little I asked my mom questions, and I still do. She had no answers for me. I don't agree with the teachings... I don't like the idea of one, all knowing, perfect god. It makes no sense to me. I don't believe in sin/asking for forgiveness or thinking about everything in terms of good or evil. And I realize not all Christians do that, but you have to admit that their religion is structured like that... good god, evil satan, heaven and hell, etc. The religion felt so hard to believe in... it felt impersonal and like there was no connection there. It's like your prayers/thoughts go to nothing. I also couldn't bring myself to be a part of something that people have used to do evil for hundreds of years. There's too much of "doing this for god" and people saying "god thinks/hates". And reading about all of the terrible things that god does in the bible... or things that are associated with him... I just can't put my energy into that.

I've been a religious bum for most of my life... just haven't cared... at 12 or 13 I found fluffy wicca books and was interested but my brother found them and lectured me for hours about how evil they were... sigh.

What my spirituality is like today gradually built up over the past 4 years. I've always had this strange connection and interest in norse things... possibly because of my german ancestry, I don't know. I studied runes and norse mythology for the past few years but only a year ago did I realize my gods were right there in front of my nose. I tried asatru but I moved away from it and kind of evolved into my own spirituality. I've figured out I don't like organized religions... seems with a religion you can't do/believe in x if you want to call yourself y. So now I'm just my own little thing... norse pagan/witch who's 100% polytheist, devoted to northern gods. I use traditional and modern practices, and magic, keeping the modern ones in the right context. I have a relationship with my gods, they aren't distant and I'm not a servant to them. They're like friends/wise teachers. And I'm happy with what I am.