An interesting thought about feeling Celtic roots

[Silvan]

Many who are drawn to various Druidic ways, especially those with Reconstructionist leanings, feel a draw to return to the religion of their ancestors, and of their ancestral homeland.

I myself have expressed this sort of yearning, and did so just recently.

A bit back, I began to really think about that. I think of myself as a Celt, and I see the old religion of the Celts, of which the Druids were a part, as my cultural heritage. I feel that if I were to try to wrest my inheritance from the clutches of those who have sought to smother it in the teachings of a Jewish prophet, this is clearly the path I should follow.

And yet, what do I know of my own ancestry? I can trace my family back a few generations, and can pretty reasonably pinpoint the time my immediate forebears came over from Scotland. I can pinpoint where our Clan lived, and point to it on a map.

I've suddenly realized, however, that it doesn't necessarily mean a thing. The old religion was quashed so long ago that there simply aren't records enough to trace my line back to a time and a place when my ancestors would have practiced it.

Scotland has not been as widely conquerored as England, but there has still been plenty of commingling of blood. Without studying the specific history conquest by conquest, region by region, family by family, I can still surmise that I might be Pictish, or I might be a Celt, or I could be from any number of other tribes that conquered, visited, or intermingled with my forebears. I could even be all of the above, or any combination thereof. There is simply no way for me to know.

All I can do is put a several greats grandfather in a certain bit of Scotland around 200 years ago, at a time long, long after the Act of Union. It seems, therefore, that my claim to my Scots heritage is muddy at best.

The case for Celtic heritage is easier to make, because the Celtic world extended from the north of Spain up to Hadrian's Wall and beyond. Even at that, who's to say I don't have some Jute or Frank or Visigoth in here somewhere. Most of those doings took place long after the Christians had subsumbed and subverted the biggest part of the old religion too.

My ancestry is in quite a bit of doubt. So why, then, do I feel like these highlands of Virginia are as welcoming a place as their counterparts in the old country? Why do I feel this draw to the ideas of old that might have belonged to a culture not my own?

It seems on one level that it would be much more useful to attempt to build a new tradition upon a new land, and to discard these as being no more my own than Islam or Shinto.

Yet I still feel the pull of the ancient trees and the ancient stones in a land I have only seen in pictures and movies. I very much feel the Scot in my blood, and I know instinctively that I do come from lands my immediate forebears occupied for generations.

It's mysterious. I could still have Druidic leanings and yet hearken back to Galicia, or to Provence, but I don't. Not at all. I feel on some level that those lands are as alien to me as the bottom of the ocean, or the surface of Mars.

Maybe there's some past life thingie involved here, or maybe I've just built this whole thing up in my head because I saw too many movies, and read too many historical accounts of the origins of my Clan. (Clan Mac-An-t-Saoir)

Even at that, I don't know whether to feel more the Celt or more the Pict. Perhaps a mixture of both, or perhaps I'm actually German, or Russian since way back.

I wonder if there's some way to compare my mitochondrial DNA to a database or something.

Or I could just continue to hug my oak trees and not worry so much. Hugging oak trees is good. Hugging all manner of other trees is good too. Trees are good people. That, more than anything else, is what draws me to the people who made sacred spaces out of their groves. They got that detail right for sure, I feel in my bones. Trees are the most magical of creatures; more magical than dragons.

[Kern]

I dont think I will be much help here,but I seem to recall that both the Celtic peoples and the Germanic(Teutonic ones) both stem from the same genetic field,so ethnically there isnt much difference.What seperated them was language and culture.
I have both Celtic and Teutonic(the other branch of Germanic tribes were known as Alpine and differ slightly in that they are more olive in complextion,have a flatter cranium and are slightly shorter and usually have darker hair,whereas the Teutonic tribes were taller,lighter in skin complexion and hair color,though dark hair was popular,the Alpine stock didnt have light hair).There were some tribes described as Celtic in Gaul and modern Belgium that seem to have belonged to the Alpine branch though.

If your ancestors lived in a Celtic region then they were Celtic culturally,no matter what ethnic branch they belonged to and vice versa.To put it simply its not a racial issue,its a Cultural one.(e.i. A Saxon that settled in a Celtic area and adopted the religion,language and culture became Celtic and vice versa)
For me the Celtic Culture speaks to me more than the Teutonic.

[Maggie]

Many who are drawn to various Druidic ways, especially those with Reconstructionist leanings, feel a draw to return to the religion of their ancestors, and of their ancestral homeland.

I myself have expressed this sort of yearning, and did so just recently.

A bit back, I began to really think about that. I think of myself as a Celt, and I see the old religion of the Celts, of which the Druids were a part, as my cultural heritage. I feel that if I were to try to wrest my inheritance from the clutches of those who have sought to smother it in the teachings of a Jewish prophet, this is clearly the path I should follow.

I think of myself as me and then as an American, while acknowledging all the strands that have gone to make up that me. After several discussions on this point, some in this forum, I think I can safely say that I'm probably a minority of one. :D However...

I have always been drawn to all things Scottish; when I was a kid my dad and I used to listen to pipe music, drove my mom nuts. I like the art, I like the stories, I like the music. I hate to admit but I even understand some of the stereotypes about the Highland celts because I can react and feel the same way. BUT--what I responded to was simply a slice of the timeline and I knew that. You want to tell a Highland member of the Wee Free that he/she isn't a true celt? I saw a tiny Catholic church up on Mull too, wanna try that there? Some archaeologists consider the Trocharians one of the forebears of what were later called the celts. I somehow doubt that they would have followed what we now define as celtic beliefs. What difference does it make that some of their descendants again turned to yet another set of beliefs?

And yet, what do I know of my own ancestry? I can trace my family back a few generations, and can pretty reasonably pinpoint the time my immediate forebears came over from Scotland. I can pinpoint where our Clan lived, and point to it on a map.

I've suddenly realized, however, that it doesn't necessarily mean a thing. The old religion was quashed so long ago that there simply aren't records enough to trace my line back to a time and a place when my ancestors would have practiced it.

No, it doesn't, particularly since the descendants of those same people no longer practice it either. And *everyone* was "pagan" at one time--polytheists even. And there's no way to even tell what the people of the Hallstaat culture believed. Who knows how closely it resembled what those later living in Scotland practiced?

Scotland has not been as widely conquerored as England, but there has still been plenty of commingling of blood. Without studying the specific history conquest by conquest, region by region, family by family, I can still surmise that I might be Pictish, or I might be a Celt, or I could be from any number of other tribes that conquered, visited, or intermingled with my forebears. I could even be all of the above, or any combination thereof. There is simply no way for me to know.

Yep. And given the known path of the celtic peoples you probably are. And so? It matters--and yet it doesn't. I have quite a few in my background but that background is expressed differently even among my own siblings and parents. My father and I preferred the Scots--and yet he's where I got the Welsh from. My mother has no interest in any but the Scandinavian. Two sisters don't seem to have a preference, the third is really into German. With all the emphasis on genetic inheritance, why wouldn't different individuals end up with different emotional expressions of that heritage coming from that genetic heritage in the same way that it's expressed physically? I certainly resemble the "small dark Welsh", I've even been asked by perfect strangers if I have Welsh in my background and yet I have no desire to visit Wales. I've recently turned up the possibility of a Canadian Mohawk bride in my family and IFtrue it would certainly explain my hair :D but I've never been "drawn" to Native American cultures either. Such preferences are "irrational" by scientific standards but they still exist. So I suck it in and work with it.

All I can do is put a several greats grandfather in a certain bit of Scotland around 200 years ago, at a time long, long after the Act of Union. It seems, therefore, that my claim to my Scots heritage is muddy at best.

The Act of Union was simply the "legal means" to an end that Edward I tried for several hundred years ago. Why would it make any difference to Scottish heritage? Those in Scotland may have technically become British, they sure didn't become English.

The case for Celtic heritage is easier to make, because the Celtic world extended from the north of Spain up to Hadrian's Wall and beyond. Even at that, who's to say I don't have some Jute or Frank or Visigoth in here somewhere. Most of those doings took place long after the Christians had subsumbed and subverted the biggest part of the old religion too.

I'd say it's pretty good odds that anyone claiming celtic heritage does. The Celts after all, travelled across the width and breadth of Europe before ending up in the British Isles. So? And forced conversion gets the most ink but the fact remains that in the end the people themselves chose to change, as cultures did, do, and will continue to do so. If you choose to return, that simply means you've made yet another decision, the same way those ancestors did. Why waste so much time and energy whacking Christianity? As tribal groups met and mingled over time their beliefs met and mingled too--or changed entirely. I can't remember the name of the particular island at the moment, but there's one up in nw Scotland where burials show evidence of moon worship, in that stones indicate moonrise and bodies are buried facing the rising moon. And yet that's gone too. Pagans whacked each other, pagans whacked Christians, Christians whacked pagans, militant Muslims whack Christians, Christian sects whack each other, Jews disagree, and atheists would prefer religion disappear all together. There are even divisions among Buddhists, just about any religion you can name. Even the Celts aren't identical now. Humans do that to each other, not particularly Christians.

My ancestry is in quite a bit of doubt. So why, then, do I feel like these highlands of Virginia are as welcoming a place as their counterparts in the old country? Why do I feel this draw to the ideas of old that might have belonged to a culture not my own?

Who knows? I actually didn't choose paganism, paganism "chose" me on the Isle of Skye. And nw Scotland felt "home" in a way even the state of my birth didn't and doesn't now--nor does Virginia, even though I have now lived here longer than in Michigan where I was born and raised. The apparent irrationality of all this still gives me fits, I find it hard to deal with. But there it is.

It seems on one level that it would be much more useful to attempt to build a new tradition upon a new land, and to discard these as being no more my own than Islam or Shinto.

Why? The celts moved constantly, and would have had to adapt constantly. Why should it be any different now? They kept what worked and either modified or dropped the rest. You would be doing exactly what they did since they started moving.

Yet I still feel the pull of the ancient trees and the ancient stones in a land I have only seen in pictures and movies. I very much feel the Scot in my blood, and I know instinctively that I do come from lands my immediate forebears occupied for generations.

You ever find an answer, let me know. I have been to the Highlands, driven and walked around by myself there and had lots of time to consider the question. I still don't understand it. :awilly:

It's mysterious. I could still have Druidic leanings and yet hearken back to Galicia, or to Provence, but I don't. Not at all. I feel on some level that those lands are as alien to me as the bottom of the ocean, or the surface of Mars.

Maybe there's some past life thingie involved here, or maybe I've just built this whole thing up in my head because I saw too many movies, and read too many historical accounts of the origins of my Clan. (Clan Mac-An-t-Saoir)

Even at that, I don't know whether to feel more the Celt or more the Pict. Perhaps a mixture of both, or perhaps I'm actually German, or Russian since way back.

Who knows? Why don't I wonder about Wales? Germany? Norway? Sweden? England? Or even have any desire at all to visit Israel? My rational mind has decided to accept genetic memory instead of reincarnation, at least on even days. On odd days reincarnation sneaks in.

I wonder if there's some way to compare my mitochondrial DNA to a database or something.

Would it make any difference? It most likely would simply indicate European--which you know already.

Or I could just continue to hug my oak trees and not worry so much.

Works for me. :boing:

Maggie

[Silvan]

I think of myself as me and then as an American, while acknowledging all the strands that have gone to make up that me. After several discussions on this point, some in this forum, I think I can safely say that I'm probably a minority of one. :D However...
Yeah, me too. :) I'm actually starting to think seriously about coming up with a whole new Official Pagan Path just for me. I've got some incurable obsession to find a series of letters to ascribe to myself, and I'm driving myself nuts trying on clothes, so to speak. Too fluffy, too acetic, too new agey, too traditionalist, too much this, not enough that.

Wanting to find a series of letters to ascribe to myself is absolutely pointless in the first place, but it is a Quest that just won't leave me alone. So... :bangyourh

I have always been drawn to all things Scottish; when I was a kid my dad and I used to listen to pipe music, drove my mom nuts. I like the art, I like the stories, I like the music.
The dress and the weapons too, though I'll leave most of the traditional foods at the door. :D It's also cool that two major motion pictures took place in a specific corner of a particular bit of the world I can lay some historical claim to.

(Interesting points snipped, but not ignored...)

Who knows? I actually didn't choose paganism, paganism "chose" me on the Isle of Skye. And nw Scotland felt "home" in a way even the state of my birth didn't and doesn't now

I wound up here because I failed in a lifelong intellectual struggle to become a good die-hard secular atheist. :D

As to the Druid question... I want to be what I want a Druid to be, but I don't think what I want to be a Druid to be is what a Druid really is, or was.

So if I could define what "Druid" means, I would call myself by that title, but since I can't, I don't quite feel like it fits. I suppose basically I'm not prepared to wage my side of "You're not a real [Druid|Wiccan|Celtic Pagan] because you X and you don't Y" arguments.

Would that I could just stop caring about the name in the first place, and would that I could let all of these questions go entirely, and just stop thinking about it. I could find other things to contemplate, surely, without being that much poorer for it. But this problem has its thorns in me. :bangyourh

(I'll stop worrying about it and just go hug my oak tree...)
Works for me. :boing:

Me too. For the moment anyway.

I have a nice oak tree to hug, incidentally. It's not mine, of course, except as a taxpayer, but I consider myself fortunate to have the pleasure of keeping company with such a longevous creature. Oaks of this size are rare hereabouts, and this one's two closest relations have both died on their feet. This is the last tree of its kind standing in the wood near my house, the final survivor from the time before the saws came to lay waste to this region.

One shot shows the bole in comparison to my hat and my only official Pagan ritual staff like artifact, also known as a very practical walking stick. (Made from a piece of my favorite pet tree, a maple. Taken as a pruning, unfortunately, but it was at least an unavoidable pruning.) I'm definitely ritual-impaired, and my "ritual garb" here just proves the point.

I need to go on Pagan Eye for the Square Guy and get some fashion tips. :lol:

(It sure is nice to be here on MW, incidentally. Being able to spout weird stuff like I've just been doing without people giving me that "you're a freak" look, or warming up their Bibles. I realize I am a total nutter when it comes to trees.)

[Maggie]

I wound up here because I failed in a lifelong intellectual struggle to become a good die-hard secular atheist. :D

Yeah, well, I was pretty well settled as an unaffiliated agnostic. Life's funny that way.

So if I could define what "Druid" means, I would call myself by that title, but since I can't, I don't quite feel like it fits. I suppose basically I'm not prepared to wage my side of "You're not a real [Druid|Wiccan|Celtic Pagan] because you X and you don't Y" arguments.

I'm not either. And that's another aspect I mentioned, keep it in mind. You will get a different answer from everyone who might post, mine is only one among many. At the moment I use "celtic pagan" if I have to find a label.

Would that I could just stop caring about the name in the first place, and would that I could let all of these questions go entirely, and just stop thinking about it. I could find other things to contemplate, surely, without being that much poorer for it. But this problem has its thorns in me. :bangyourh

Well, there is that. I prefer things nice and tidy too. I've been learning the hard way that there aren't always nice and tidy answers. Perhaps the process of looking will eventually itself be the answer. You'll at least learn a lot about yourself! :D


I'm definitely ritual-impaired, and my "ritual garb" here just proves the point.

What works, works. I'll tell ya a sekrut. I don't have any ritual garb and any rituals I do are pretty plain. Important point is that those I do them for seem to appreciate them. And that's the point.


(It sure is nice to be here on MW, incidentally. Being able to spout weird stuff like I've just been doing without people giving me that "you're a freak" look, or warming up their Bibles.

Yep.

Maggie

[DraoinanDuanaire]

I'm actually starting to think seriously about coming up with a whole new Official Pagan Path just for me.

Mo Dhraíocht Féin is, by it's nature, usable by anyone. :)

[Maggie]

Mo Dhraíocht Féin is, by it's nature, usable by anyone. :)

Well, yes, my dear ArchDruid, it is. But would you like to let the poster in on the joke?


Maggie

[DraoinanDuanaire]

Joke?

[DraoinanDuanaire]

:needcoffe

[DraoinanDuanaire]

Mo Dhraíocht Féin = My Own Druidry. Obvious nod to ADF, of course, just without the hierarchy. :)

I really like the term because it denotes the interest common to us, to study of draíocht and draoíthe, and avoids all the conflicts over theology, reconstructionism, "authenticity", etc...the draíocht is our own.

Mo dhraíocht being mo dhraíocht, and not anyone else's, I'm the ard-draoí. :whistle:

[KellyP]

Mo Dhraíocht Féin is, by it's nature, usable by anyone. :)
Excellent choice!

I think the whole notion of "I am trying to be what I think a Druid should be" is an excellent theme for many people to take away from their reflections on a practice of modern druidry.

I was flying in an airplane at about 10,000 ft yesterday and viewing the landscape from my window caused me to reflect on exactly how different my experiences are from those I study so intently. There is a gulf of nearly 2000 years of study and learning that I have access to which colors all that I think and do. No amount of trying to "get into the shoes" of these ancestors will ever let me escape my own reasonings. So, I must now accept the idea of living My Own Druidry.

KellyP
Mo Dhraiocht Fein
Ar nDraiocht Fein (www.adf.org (http://www.adf.org))

[Silvan]

You will get a different answer from everyone who might post, mine is only one among many. At the moment I use "celtic pagan" if I have to find a label.
I did that for awhile too, but then I got off on this whole "Am I Celtic enough?" thing.

I've tried Eclectic Pagan too, but that's too broad. I'm Celtic-ish. :lol:

Well, there is that. I prefer things nice and tidy too. I've been learning the hard way that there aren't always nice and tidy answers.

Yeah, I know, but I'm still going to find some, even if I have to make them up on the spot. :D

I'm more than half serious about that. I'm starting to form ideas about what I think lies underneath all this lore, what works and why. If nothing else, I guess I'm trying to formalize my own practice, so I have a book to go by, and a book to show my children now that they have more questions. I guess maybe this is something like the Wiccan idea of a Book of Shadows, actually, now that I think about it. I hadn't had that thought until just now. Interesting.

Perhaps the process of looking will eventually itself be the answer. You'll at least learn a lot about yourself! :D

And I have. I'm surprised at how short the journey has been, now that you mention it. I thought it would have been longer. Certainly the overall journey has been life-long, but I didn't really come to cast aside the idea that it was a choice between the Christianity (or agnosticism, which I considered to mean "a Christian who doesn't know which denomination to follow") and purest atheism.

It was an interesting process that opened my eyes to the realm of possibility, and it looks like I first wrote about that in early September of 1999. I would have thought I had been of a Pagan bent for at least a decade now.

I would have been doing some homework leading up to that first tentative post, so I'd guess I got started down this road in August. That is not surprising, as the twilight between Summer's last dying gasp and full on Autumn has always been an extremely powerful time of change for me. Since long before I schooled myself to think in such fluffy terms. :D

What works, works. I'll tell ya a sekrut. I don't have any ritual garb and any rituals I do are pretty plain. Important point is that those I do them for seem to appreciate them. And that's the point.

That's my take on it too. I more or less believe I can do all this stuff entirely in my own head to the same or similar effect, and it's a lot easier to have a freaky Pagan ceremony if everyone else on the trail thinks you're just another random dog walker. :D

I'd probably be more overt if I owned my own forest. I'd like to be a lot more freaky looking and get into the whole bit with both feet, but I hate confrontation. I can see the headlines now.

SOMEWHERE, VA - A cult of baby eaters has sprouted up and is conducting worship ceremonies in [PLACE]. We interviewed one of these baby eaters who said he went by the name "Silver."

[Silvan]

Mo Dhraíocht Féin is, by it's nature, usable by anyone. :)
I'll bite. That's a new one on me, and Google wasn't especially revealing.

[Silvan]

Mo Dhraíocht Féin = My Own Druidry. Obvious nod to ADF, of course, just without the hierarchy. :)
And now I look like a putz for not reading ahead before biting upthread a few moments ago. :whistle:

Oh well.

Mo dhraíocht being mo dhraíocht, and not anyone else's, I'm the ard-draoí. :whistle:That's kind of my thinking too, but I'm still starting to feel some need to distance myself from the loaded term/concept "Druid" entirely. I'm thinking Dendrophile or something derived from Greek. Not because I have any Greek theological leanings, but because I have a teach-yourself-Greek book I've been having fun playing with, and hey, why not? The Greeks were the first to write about the Κελτοι (Keltoi) anyway, right?

(And if mol happens to be reading, and wonders about the whole Περσεφονη thing, that was my wife, and the Greek character thing was my harebrained idea.)

Yeahbut anyway, Mo Dhraíocht Féin, that'll work for now. :D

[Maggie]

So, I must now accept the idea of living My Own Druidry.

KellyP
Mo Dhraiocht Fein
Ar nDraiocht Fein (www.adf.org (http://www.adf.org))

Why not? That's exactly what they did! :rotfl:

Maggie

[TheTempestuous1]

actually many scots did settle in the virginia, south carolina area in past times, and from what I have read did indeed liken it as having a feeling of their old homeland. I suggest reading the outlander series by diana gabaldon for this... around the 4th to 5th book.

[Maggie]

actually many scots did settle in the virginia, south carolina area in past times, and from what I have read did indeed liken it as having a feeling of their old homeland. I suggest reading the outlander series by diana gabaldon for this... around the 4th to 5th book.

They're all up and down the east coast, actually, including North Carolina--and Michigan. There's a town named Kilmanagh in Michigan, and an area called the Irish Hills. They had green fire trucks. Anywhere there were forests, water, and at least uneven ground if not actual hills. That doesn't really help me in trying to understand why nw Scotland felt "right" in a way even places that resembled it here did not.

Maggie

[blackroseivy]

This all sounds an awful lot like what I struggle with most days... I have nothing in my background but what reading I've done, nobody to guide me at all, so it's tough.

[Silvan]

There is a gulf of nearly 2000 years of study and learning that I have access to which colors all that I think and do. No amount of trying to "get into the shoes" of these ancestors will ever let me escape my own reasonings. So, I must now accept the idea of living My Own Druidry.


There's also the conundrum in trying to figure out "What would a druid be today" because the answer is, a Christian. That's what happened to the druids and other pagans of yore. The Borg religion assimilated them, and blurred the line forever.

What would my great great great (...) grandfather want me to be? Probably if I went back to one particular generation, I could find a line at which adding another great would change the answer to that question from "druid" to "priest."

Finding the line is impossible though, and if I could go back and talk to Grandpa Cwryth he might even think the world was flat.

[Kern]

Mo Dhraíocht Féin = My Own Druidry. Obvious nod to ADF, of course, just without the hierarchy. :)

I really like the term because it denotes the interest common to us, to study of draíocht and draoíthe, and avoids all the conflicts over theology, reconstructionism, "authenticity", etc...the draíocht is our own.

Mo dhraíocht being mo dhraíocht, and not anyone else's, I'm the ard-draoí. :whistle:
I like that reasoning _twohorns_

[DraoinanDuanaire]

There's also the conundrum in trying to figure out "What would a druid be today" because the answer is, a Christian.

I disagree. The term has historically broadened to include some Christians, but that doesn't mean we have to favor that end of the spectrum ourselves. I would submit that during the first centuries of Christianization, priests were granted many of the legal standings of draoíthe (in Gaeldom, at least, the Gaelic world being what I know) because that's the social class priests would naturally belong to, even if they serve a non-traditional god. Their own learning was not unimpressive, foreign as some of it may be, and proper respect was shown in this. It didn't turn out the way we'd have liked, obviously, but that's more a flaw of some Christians than the idea. ;)

[Maggie]

I disagree. The term has historically broadened to include some Christians, but that doesn't mean we have to favor that end of the spectrum ourselves. I would submit that during the first centuries of Christianization, priests were granted many of the legal standings of draoíthe (in Gaeldom, at least, the Gaelic world being what I know) because that's the social class priests would naturally belong to, even if they serve a non-traditional god. Their own learning was not unimpressive, foreign as some of it may be, and proper respect was shown in this. It didn't turn out the way we'd have liked, obviously, but that's more a flaw of some Christians than the idea. ;)

Certainly the priests were. But then again, what would happen when the populace had finally turned Christian? As generations passed, the "office" would have become Christian since the population from which the "druids" were drawn would have been Christian. Same people, same function--but Christian.

Maggie

[DraoinanDuanaire]

But once that occurred, the term dropped from usage as such and began it's decline into meaning simple things like "magician" or "oracle."

[Maggie]

But once that occurred, the term dropped from usage as such and began it's decline into meaning simple things like "magician" or "oracle."


Yes, but the question was more along the lines of IF there were Druids today, what would they be. :D IF Druids existed today, I would vote with the original poster--they would be Christians.

Maggie

[Twig]

I perused down the first page of this thread and heard :

Or I could just continue to hug my oak trees and not worry so much. Hugging oak trees is good. Hugging all manner of other trees is good too. Trees are good people. That, more than anything else, is what draws me to the people who made sacred spaces out of their groves. They got that detail right for sure, I feel in my bones. Trees are the most magical of creatures; more magical than dragons.

and

I'm actually starting to think seriously about coming up with a whole new Official Pagan Path just for me.

Yeah I know what you mean. Thats why the Fourth Age of Druidry is needed I say.

www.fourthageofdruidry.blogspot.com

;)Heheh shameless self promaotion but why not!? :nyah:

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[misschief]

you know, (i didn't read this entire thread, just so you know) since i found out the truth about my family, and that i am mainly descended from an ancient gaelic clan, and also king niall (who i STILL don't know much about). it fits. when i thought i was german it felt funny. now, knowing my family lived in and around ireland, that my bloodline predates written history, and is in some cases the stuff of legends... i feel better. can't describe it, but i am absolutely sure that is part of why MY version of witchcraft is "off" compared to how others do it. i've always had an interest in druids, and i'm beginning to think my ancestry might be why.

[Sonic Seamus]

I'm glad Twig piped up here as I was going to suggest the same thing (The 4th Age of Druidry that is). I think some level of spiritual/religious evolution was/is inevitable, invasions or not. Finding the things from ancient past to apply to your present is a very personal thing.

I wonder if we all struggle with this "where do I fit" at one point or another. We as humans have a need to place things in their nice little compartments as that gives us a certain amount of perspective but at the same time, your compartments may or may not make sense to me and vise versa. I also wonder if this stems from the "maco-spirituaity" frame of mind where you always belong to some group with a set belief system since very few of us are actually raised pagan/wiccan/etc.

I try not to get hung up on terms, pantheons or such things. I try not to seek things but rather give my own truth the opportunity to find me through reading, walks in the woods/ rivers or meditation. My ideas, practices and philosophy evolve on a daily basis this way and everyday I feel a little further down the path even though there really isnt a destination perse.

I know I'm Irish as I've heard numerous times from my grandparents about their parent/grandparents coming over. I've also done a bit of research on the family name and found that one of the first of the family came over in 1771 and set up a homestead in S. Carolina but what my exact relationship is to that person(s) I dont know.

Strangley enough though I feel the pull of Irish family lines, I cant stand my father and havent talked to my immediate family (on his side) for almost 10 years.

[Silvan]

As generations passed, the "office" would have become Christian since the population from which the "druids" were drawn would have been Christian. Same people, same function--but Christian.

That's basically the way I see it too. The function didn't disappear, but it was assimilated and repackaged to fit into a different context. I don't believe that could have happened without impacting the nature of the function itself though. Especially as time went on.

[Phi]

I perused down the first page of this thread and heard :



and



Yeah I know what you mean. Thats why the Fourth Age of Druidry is needed I say.

www.fourthageofdruidry.blogspot.com (http://www.fourthageofdruidry.blogspot.com/)

;)Heheh shameless self promaotion but why not!? :nyah:

Peace,
Twig
:elf:Twig, the Fourth Age is here already! You and I, among others, are living proof. Although you are needed to help Tully explain it to many . Wow,Twig, you got some 'splainin' to do!:D

[Phi]

you know, (i didn't read this entire thread, just so you know) since i found out the truth about my family, and that i am mainly descended from an ancient gaelic clan, and also king niall (who i STILL don't know much about). it fits. when i thought i was german it felt funny. now, knowing my family lived in and around ireland, that my bloodline predates written history, and is in some cases the stuff of legends... i feel better. can't describe it, but i am absolutely sure that is part of why MY version of witchcraft is "off" compared to how others do it. i've always had an interest in druids, and i'm beginning to think my ancestry might be why.
Lady Leo,
I can't resist mentioning that everybody's bloodline predates written history. LOL:lilangel:

[ShadowDragon999]

I also disagree that Druids today would be (just) Christian,and I do agree with Twig about the need for the 4th Age of Druidry..it and we are all evolving from the real question is... from what?to what is becoming...I for one believe that the Shining Ones change their shapes and attributes to suit Their worshippers,and often as we internalize and discover its not all 'the same' as what another would experience/become.I also didnt read the entire thread,I found my own 'stirrings' to make a point here.

:-)

[Silvan]

That's kind of my thinking too, but I'm still starting to feel some need to distance myself from the loaded term/concept "Druid" entirely. I'm thinking Dendrophile or something derived from Greek.
[...]
Yeahbut anyway, Mo Dhraíocht Féin, that'll work for now. :D
Well, just to make it official... I have thought on this long and hard over the past bit, and I have concluded that I am, in fact, a Druid after all. The term means many things to many people, but no other classification will suit me.

So it's good to have that settled. I am a Druid. I am a Reeve in the newly founded (s/Druidic/Mystic/g) Order of Treekeepers, and arguably the Big High Poobah Mucka Muck Super Arch Reeve Extraordinaire at that. Touch me, I'm an Arch Reeve. Yeah baby, now I'll have to beat off the nekkit wimminz with a stick.

new: Or not. Actually, I have stepped back from "druid" again. I'm definitely of a druidish bent here, but I have decided to avoid the myriad meanings of that word by focusing on defining what a "Treekeper" is. I have similarly abandoned the term "reeve" and have adopted a nomenclature involving various 'arch terms. I am the Lor'arch, the Keeper of the Lore. Similar, etymologically, not spiritually (I'm no deity, I can't even do chin-ups...), to the Verd'arch, the Verdant Matriarch, which is about the purest, most baggage-free "Mother Nature" deity concept I have been able to evolve. There will be other 'arch members in the Treekeeper panthenon. I am avoiding existing Celtic and non-Celtic deities for reasons which will become apparent in time. Stay tuned...

None of this actually means anything yet, and it's purest foolishiness, but what the hell. I can't find a path I want to call my own, so I'm inventing a new one. It's hardly unprecedented. I'm not making any false claims about long historical traditions here. I'm drawing on a number of historical traditions, including traditions that count their history in decades, rather than centuries, and entirely new ones based on fresh ways of looking at old questions.

It's your MDF after a fashion, but I'm working into something a bit more formal than that. It's fair to say that the MOT Official Grand Charter of Stuff and Such will describe something that gives a nod to Philip Carr-Gomm's Druidcraft, but I'm working into formalizing a practice that's uniquely mine, based on my own understanding of How Everything Probably Works And Stuff.

It also gives tidy justification for using the Wiccan holy symbol, by inscribing it with runes from the Applebeech (Copyright (c) 2005). The five elements of Wicca have never called to me, in spite of the many ways I have tried to fit that framework into my thinking, so now we have the Five Influences, or whatever clever term I come up with. I won't say what they are. I invite anyone bored enough to still be reading this to figure it out. :) They're written all over the Pentapple (Copyright (c) 2005).

The Applebeech is a an alphabet of trees for America, for the 21st century, and for the English language. It is an Ogham-style expression of Futhark that draws additional runes from myriad diverse runic alphabets, and invents a few new ones too. Unlike Ogham or Futhark, it includes the 26 letters of the Latin alphabet with no extra characters, no absent characters, and it is a complete, fully functional writing system for everyday life, including two cases, numbers, and modern punctuation. Unlike the Ogham, it is composed of native or naturalized American trees to the greatest extent possible, and the trees are named in English. The first being Apple and Beech, obviously. (Favor is given to trees I have actually seen, and I've never seen an Alder or an Aspen. Apple trees are foreign invaders, but they are everpresent, and have been part of our American landscape for centuries.)

new: Besides... Who ever heard of aspen pie? Yick. Apples are one of the best tree foods. They keep, and we can eat them without sacrificing any of the babies contained in the seeds. (Although it's all but impossible to eat without slaughtering a great many babies. Recognizing this fact is going to be a big part of the Treekeeper Mealtime Prayer Thingie when I write it all down. I can't WAIT to be asked to say grace at the next family hoo ba.

Thanks be unto the grasses who have sacrificed their progeny that we might live another day.

Well, something like that, except dramatically longer and flowerier. That's just a teaser for the kind of lore this Lor'arch is cooking up. Stay tuned. My uncle the "Let's all pray to Jesus that the [team] wins the [game]" hypocritstian (there's another term for the OED) is going to be apoplectic. :alol:

So the MOT has a froofy mystical symbol and its own top secret runic alphabet for writing magickal things nobody else can understand without some effort. Now all we need are some cool costumes and an Official Holy Book About Stuff We Think It Would Be Cool To Do.

(We being SWMBO and myself, currently, though if anyone else is interested in joining up and becoming a card-carrying member of the Order, I'm sure we'll be taking new members once we work out the Purification Rituals and stuff. I'm hoping SWMBO will let me write in an Orgy of Initiation, but I'd better not count on it. :D )

(In the meantime, you can all content yourself that Silvan has finally gone off the deep end. It's probably true. But lookit that cool new star flummy. Innit snazzy? Probably incredibly obnoxious as a .sig too, but if you can't read the Pentapple, what's the point? If enough people whine, I might cut it down to just the MOT banner at the bottom though.)

and nobody's complained so far, so it's too late. I whack every complainer in the head with a fish. :fishsmack :tongueout

[Phi]

The DOT has a froofy mystical symbol? Geez, and I have to get a new driver's license ASAP...wonder if it'll have that snazzy flummy on it?

Oh yeah, that's right, the DOT is Federal and driver licenses are issued by the state...:)

[Phi]

One thing that everybody forgets to mention is our irretrievable maternal bloodlines. We are biologically/genetically every bit as much decendants of our foremothers as we are of our forefathers, in spite of the traditions that allow us to trace forefather lines and make it nearly impossible to trace foremother lines. This being said, no one can really know all of their antecedent cultural backgrounds even if they extensively trace family trees. With the foremother branches and limbs branching out into myriad untraceable directions, knowing where we came from in this respect is well nigh impossible.
Anybody ever try to trace father's mother, mother's mother, grandmothers, their mothers, their mothers? Always leads to dead ends somewhere(because some foremother's mother's maiden name/father's name is missing) or to lapsing into tracing back a great-grandmother's father's family rather than her mother's family....very difficult.:ugh:

However, an educated guess going back a few centuries is possible anyway since usually women of the immediate area and close tribe was chosen as wife:hmmmmm:

... barring marriages arranged for sealing peace by leaders of warring cultures, and the adoptions of children born after ravages of wars, claiming women as spoils of war, romantic trysts resulting in babies passed off as being the husband's child... ect, ect...:ggrief:

Roots go way too deep to trace them all, but spirit-roots can guide one to one's primary heritage.

[Dave the Druid]

I also disagree that Druids today would be (just) Christian,and I do agree with Twig about the need for the 4th Age of Druidry..it and we are all evolving from the real question is... from what?to what is becoming...I for one believe that the Shining Ones change their shapes and attributes to suit Their worshippers,and often as we internalize and discover its not all 'the same' as what another would experience/become.I also didnt read the entire thread,I found my own 'stirrings' to make a point here.

:-)

WHAO NELLY!

who said Druids were christian?! If they are I'm going back to the trees!
I am not and I know of others who are certainly not. Atheistic/mono/poly/pan theistic does not give direct nod to any specific form of diety.

[Silvan]

The DOT has a froofy mystical symbol? Geez, and I have to get a new driver's license ASAP...wonder if it'll have that snazzy flummy on it?

Oh yeah, that's right, the DOT is Federal and driver licenses are issued by the state...:)
Actually, most states have their own DOT too. (VDOT, NCDOT, SCDOT, PennDOT, etc.) The unfortunate similarity is not lost on me here, and I'm thinking of changing the name to, perhaps, Mystic Order of Treekepers. MOT is good, sort of. I considered Pagan Order of Treekepers too, but the DOT is bad enough without getting the DEA in on it too. :)

As for the "flummy" do be sure to spread it far and wide, and remember you heard it here (ie emanating from my fingertips, of course) first. If "bling-bling" can get into the OED, then my beloved "flummy" can too. It started life on alt.os.linux.mandrake, but I just haven't really managed to get it to take root in the common culture. Probably because I hang out in weird places, neh? :hehehehe:

[Phi]

Actually, that "flummy" really is quite beautiful! I really like that!

[Silvan]

Actually, that "flummy" really is quite beautiful! I really like that!Thanks... I'm a little annoyed that I had to settle for blue. I spent a ridiculous amount of time playing with the colorizer trying to come up with something that more reasonably resembled wood, but I just didn't get there. Oh well, blue is good. I guess to get any better, I'd have to start with photographs of sticks.

It looks a lot more spiffy than my initial sketch, that's for sure. I kept the background on a separate layer, so I might swap in seasonal themes. Whee. Utter silliness, but maybe discovering that a bit of flagrant fluffiness is fun is part my voyage of discovery. :clapping:

I'm no longer sure what any of this has to do with my Celtic roots though. Unless it somehow explains why I have such a woody for trees. _whistle_

[Phi]

Thanks... I'm a little annoyed that I had to settle for blue. I spent a ridiculous amount of time playing with the colorizer trying to come up with something that more reasonably resembled wood, but I just didn't get there. Oh well, blue is good. I guess to get any better, I'd have to start with photographs of sticks.

It looks a lot more spiffy than my initial sketch, that's for sure. I kept the background on a separate layer, so I might swap in seasonal themes. Whee. Utter silliness, but maybe discovering that a bit of flagrant fluffiness is fun is part my voyage of discovery. :clapping:

I'm no longer sure what any of this has to do with my Celtic roots though. Unless it somehow explains why I have such a woody for trees. _whistle_
Roots, trees, what's the difference...it's still a great looking ...what did you call it?...flummy

The blue represents water, and according to the naming of the rivers, the prevalence of sacred wells and so on, looks perfectly celtic to me...like the ogham too. Celtic enough!

[Silvan]

Roots, trees, what's the difference...it's still a great looking ...what did you call it?...flummy

The blue represents water, and according to the naming of the rivers, the prevalence of sacred wells and so on, looks perfectly celtic to me...like the ogham too. Celtic enough!Oh no, I should elaborate on that. "Flummy" is just a word I made up, which I'm trying to get into the OED. It's just another word in the same spirit as "thingie" or "dooflatchie."

The official name for the blue star flummy is the Pentapple. The Greeks called the pentagram the Πενταλφα (Pentalpha) because it's made up of five alphas, or five copies of the letter A.

Mine is the Pentapple because Apple is the first letter in my newly minted Ogham-esque writing system. Although, upon further reflection, perhaps that's silly, since my A glyph doesn't look a blasted thing like an A at all. Interesting.

I'm babbling again. :uhhhhh:

It will all become clear in time. In the meantime, I'm glad you like my newly minted symbol. I will explain what it all means in due course, and at some considerable length. If I ever find time to write down everything floating around in my head right now, I will have quite a lot of information about Treekeeping available.

I'm currently wasting time doing a new version of the Applebeech with stained glass looking whatever-you-callems, like in the old, old books. Celtic knotwork made out of stained glass looking stuff incorporating my glyphs. Coolness, but tediousness too. Big black hole for time. I really ought to cheat and use some kind of knotwork generator program. Or just skip it and save it as an icing touch for later.

I have a dismal habit of spending eternity on the icing, and never baking the blasted cake. :fpartyhat :imout:

[odubhain]

actually many scots did settle in the virginia, south carolina area in past times, and from what I have read did indeed liken it as having a feeling of their old homeland. I suggest reading the outlander series by diana gabaldon for this... around the 4th to 5th book.
Diane Gabaldon's books are set in the Roan Mountain area on the border between North Carolina and Tennessee.

We held two Summerlands Gatherings there and I can tell you that the entire area is very magical. My wife Deborah and I were at a "holler" with a friend of ours who is a piper. When he began playing the skies were blue and clear. After a song or three. the cloud Fomorii were peeking over the mountain tops to see who had called them!

Searles

[Phi]

Diane Gabaldon's books are set in the Roan Mountain area on the border between North Carolina and Tennessee.

We held two Summerlands Gatherings there and I can tell you that the entire area is very magical. My wife Deborah and I were at a "holler" with a friend of ours who is a piper. When he began playing the skies were blue and clear. After a song or three. the cloud Fomorii were peeking over the mountain tops to see who had called them!

SearlesOhhhh...those beautiful mountains! NC is my home-state, and we lived only 2 hours away from the Appalacians and three to four from the beaches. We went to the mountains often for just a weekend since the distance wasn't too much...of course longer visits on vacations too.
There used to be a Highland festival near Grandfather mountain, and one of my childhood memories is of the men in kilts doing warrior-type things. :woot: And of course, the bagpipe music that speaks to my soul...

There's a smaller Celtic festival near here this coming weekend, and I hope we get to go, if we are well enough.

[Morgaine_cla]

Oooooohhh, my!... How many folks here are in NC, anyway?...

I've been gone a good while due to cataclysmic family events which have landed me here in Sparta, NC, up in the NW near the Virginia border. I was beginning to think I was the only Druid here... Of course, if you're all downstate, then maybe I am -- but the idea of there being folks near enough to gather with is lovely all the same...

Many blessings,
Morgaine

[Twig]

[QUOTE] Originally Posted by TheTempestuous1
actually many scots did settle in the virginia, south carolina area in past times, and from what I have read did indeed liken it as having a feeling of their old homeland. I suggest reading the outlander series by diana gabaldon for this... around the 4th to 5th book.[\QUOTE]

And to tie in that with something said earlier yes, I researched my own geneology and on my mothers side it comes from a town that historically were guardians of Hadrians wall. These Hudspeths were early (1600s) settlers in the N.C. and Virginia settlements so that alone helps support that theory.

Peace,
Twig

[Hærfest Leah]

I'm from east Tennesse in the Smokies and my mothers side (names like Epps, Carpenter, Hayes, Stubblefield) I keep hearing from cousins I meet online that they all came from England but theres so much Irish and Scottish that settled in the areas my family lived (east TN, NC & VA) I wonder how much Irish & Scottish I actually have since I have only traced them back to the 1600-1700's to the 1st colonies I think. I just recenlty heard from one cousin that says our Hayes/Hays line was Irish & Scottish but no documentation so this is why I'm looking into how much Celtic background I could actually have. My entire other side is German & Belgian.

[Meadhbh]

I'm from east Tennesse in the Smokies and my mothers side (names like Epps, Carpenter, Hayes, Stubblefield) I keep hearing from cousins I meet online that they all came from England but theres so much Irish and Scottish that settled in the areas my family lived (east TN, NC & VA) I wonder how much Irish & Scottish I actually have since I have only traced them back to the 1600-1700's to the 1st colonies I think. I just recenlty heard from one cousin that says our Hayes/Hays line was Irish & Scottish but no documentation so this is why I'm looking into how much Celtic background I could actually have. My entire other side is German & Belgian.

So my mother's side, the thing is with last english last names is its hard to tell if they were in fact english. You have to remember that the english at least had estates in Ireland, Scotland, Wales. Your family might have been english, married into a family that was or in some cases servants were known to take the name of the family the served if they had been there for a couple of generations. The problem is its hard to tell what is what when it comes to surnames.

[Hærfest Leah]

So my mother's side, the thing is with last english last names is its hard to tell if they were in fact english. You have to remember that the english at least had estates in Ireland, Scotland, Wales. Your family might have been english, married into a family that was or in some cases servants were known to take the name of the family the served if they had been there for a couple of generations. The problem is its hard to tell what is what when it comes to surnames.

You are correct, I wish it all wasn't so confusing.

[CromanMacNessa]

In reply to the general direction of the entire thread (with some few exceptions):

If people want to start a new path, why "borrow" the terminology of the Sacred Tradition of endangered cultures? We've got enough to deal with already without having people

1. deny we still exist,

2. deny anything can be known about us (because they obviously haven't bothered to look for the information, which is abundant),

and 3. rip off our terms, the Names of our Gods, the titles of our Elders and Priesthood, etc,

and then 4. get nasty when called on this misbehaviour, and try to put the blame on the one who calls them on it.

If you have a problem with hierarchy and "organised religion," then Celtic Heathen religion isn't for you. Heathen Celtic society, while not anti-libertarian, does have an established and well-defined (and well-documented) hierarchy, and the religion is anything but chaotic (even if it doesn't fit well into Aristotelian categories).

If you don't like consistent ideas in Theology (but prefer an eclectic stew of all manner of mutually incompatible notions), then Celtic Heathen religion isn't for you. Go do something else and stop trying to blur the distinctions between Celtic Heathen and Neo-Pagan and New Age and Christian and Hindu and Buddhist and Medicine Ways and the practice of the indigenous Tungus people ... It may be more "comfortable" to some to ignore the differences, but the differences do exist and are very noticeable, if one looks at things honestly. You choose to ignore the differences in a bid to keep the peace? Funny that such blurring only serves to annoy the Tradition Bearers of all indigenous cultures. Wonder why Arvol Looking-Horse and the other Elders of the Lakota, Dakota, and other Aboriginal American Nations got together and said that the New Agers should bugger off? Stop and look at things from their point of view, if you can. Indigenous religion isn't fast food "spirituality," and you can't drive through the Buddhist Tofu Bar and then drive through the Ásatrú Mead and Meat Halle to get what suits you. If you don't understand why not, you need to sit down and study the Ethics behind each of those religions (and I'm not talking about the vegetarian vs. carnivorous issue, though that's the most obvious matter in that analogy to most folk, I'm sure).

If you don't have the time, the desire, or the intellectual ability to research the material to the point that you would be able to earn the office, and aren't willing to put that learning to use in the service of a Tuath, then being a Draoidh isn't for you. Simple enough. Not everyone is cut out to be a Priest, to do Systematic Theology, to provide Pastoral Counselling, to organise and lead community ritual, to be an Educator, to guide a Tuath --- and even having the Gift isn't enough without training in the use thereof. Can you approach the Gods for yourself? Sure. But that's as far as "the priesthood of the believer" goes. If you don't like that, go get involved in the New Age movement, or a Wiccan/Neo-Wiccan Coven, or a Protestant Church.

As for the talk about "Celtic blood," that's sheer nonsense. "Celtic" is a cultural, and primarily a linguistic, designation. It has nothing to do with "blood." The fact that your great great great ... whatever was a Celt has nothing to do with what you are now, unless you allow that fact to inspire you to learn what Celtic culture is and make it your own.

If you don't like what I've said here, maybe you should do some research into Celtic cultures and see if you can figure out why I've said it.

[Hamish.Brun]

Well said Croman!

[Hærfest Leah]

In reply to the general direction of the entire thread (with some few exceptions):

If people want to start a new path, why "borrow" the terminology of the Sacred Tradition of endangered cultures? We've got enough to deal with already without having people

1. deny we still exist,

2. deny anything can be known about us (because they obviously haven't bothered to look for the information, which is abundant),

and 3. rip off our terms, the Names of our Gods, the titles of our Elders and Priesthood, etc,

and then 4. get nasty when called on this misbehaviour, and try to put the blame on the one who calls them on it.

If you have a problem with hierarchy and "organised religion," then Celtic Heathen religion isn't for you. Heathen Celtic society, while not anti-libertarian, does have an established and well-defined (and well-documented) hierarchy, and the religion is anything but chaotic (even if it doesn't fit well into Aristotelian categories).

If you don't like consistent ideas in Theology (but prefer an eclectic stew of all manner of mutually incompatible notions), then Celtic Heathen religion isn't for you. Go do something else and stop trying to blur the distinctions between Celtic Heathen and Neo-Pagan and New Age and Christian and Hindu and Buddhist and Medicine Ways and the practice of the indigenous Tungus people ... It may be more "comfortable" to some to ignore the differences, but the differences do exist and are very noticeable, if one looks at things honestly. You choose to ignore the differences in a bid to keep the peace? Funny that such blurring only serves to annoy the Tradition Bearers of all indigenous cultures. Wonder why Arvol Looking-Horse and the other Elders of the Lakota, Dakota, and other Aboriginal American Nations got together and said that the New Agers should bugger off? Stop and look at things from their point of view, if you can. Indigenous religion isn't fast food "spirituality," and you can't drive through the Buddhist Tofu Bar and then drive through the Ásatrú Mead and Meat Halle to get what suits you. If you don't understand why not, you need to sit down and study the Ethics behind each of those religions (and I'm not talking about the vegetarian vs. carnivorous issue, though that's the most obvious matter in that analogy to most folk, I'm sure).

If you don't have the time, the desire, or the intellectual ability to research the material to the point that you would be able to earn the office, and aren't willing to put that learning to use in the service of a Tuath, then being a Draoidh isn't for you. Simple enough. Not everyone is cut out to be a Priest, to do Systematic Theology, to provide Pastoral Counselling, to organise and lead community ritual, to be an Educator, to guide a Tuath --- and even having the Gift isn't enough without training in the use thereof. Can you approach the Gods for yourself? Sure. But that's as far as "the priesthood of the believer" goes. If you don't like that, go get involved in the New Age movement, or a Wiccan/Neo-Wiccan Coven, or a Protestant Church.

As for the talk about "Celtic blood," that's sheer nonsense. "Celtic" is a cultural, and primarily a linguistic, designation. It has nothing to do with "blood." The fact that your great great great ... whatever was a Celt has nothing to do with what you are now, unless you allow that fact to inspire you to learn what Celtic culture is and make it your own.

If you don't like what I've said here, maybe you should do some research into Celtic cultures and see if you can figure out why I've said it.

I don't care how much you think others "don't know", "are ignoring" or "don't have the intellectual ability" that's your opinion. How about instead of being rude, reply to your community members respectfully and your post might be taken more seriously.

[Hamish.Brun]

Its kinda hard to act respectful to people you feel are raping your religion. As a druid it is Croman's duty to defend the religion from inaccuracies and theft. If he was disrespectful in the defense of our religion it seems to me that it was well earned by those so disrespectful that they would take from our beliefs, completely change them up and have the nerve call themselves by our titles. How would you act if you caught a person in the act of stealing your car? Respectfully?

[CelticEvie]

I just don't see where Croman was being disrespectful, it proves a point Croman was making about the way people react to the truth, Is it so hard to do what he sugested, to take the time to learn and maybe try to understand what he is saying, or is that to hard to do??? Look up the word disrespectful and rude, you will see that your reply was just that!!! And he does not need to worry about being taken seriously, those who matter respect and take him very serious, you can either learn from what he has to say or not, but he has the right to say it, especially when truth is on his side...

[ap Dafydd]

I just don't see where Croman was being disrespectful, it proves a point Croman was making about the way people react to the truth, Is it so hard to do what he sugested, to take the time to learn and maybe try to understand what he is saying, or is that to hard to do??? Look up the word disrespectful and rude, you will see that your reply was just that!!! And he does not need to worry about being taken seriously, those who matter respect and take him very serious, you can either learn from what he has to say or not, but he has the right to say it, especially when truth is on his side...

Agree absolutely. If someone from outside a culture wants to take up its tradition, then I'm not going to say no, I'm going to say that it's bloody hard work and only do it if you're prepared to take it all on board. Sadly some people think that it's just a matter of reading someone else's book and bingo, there you are. If you want to follow the Celtic path, then don't come as a tourist, come as a pilgrim.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Silvan]

Its kinda hard to act respectful to people you feel are raping your religion. As a druid it is Croman's duty to defend the religion from inaccuracies and theft. If he was disrespectful in the defense of our religion it seems to me that it was well earned by those so disrespectful that they would take from our beliefs, completely change them up and have the nerve call themselves by our titles. How would you act if you caught a person in the act of stealing your car? Respectfully?I've been thinking about this one for a good while.

It comes down to this question. Are the Methodists raping the Catholics? Are the Jehova's Witnesses raping the Catholics? All three of the above worship the same deity, using permutations of the same book as a common point of reference, but they squabble all the time over who has legitimacy.

I think it's fair to draw a comparison between the Catholics, and maybe the various forms of Orthodoxy and those of you who consider that you practice the true "Celtic Heathen Tradition." The more serious and more organized but incompatible so-called Druid groups out there are comparable to Protestants, who have the bad grace to use a lot of the same terminology as the Catholics, but who pervert the very core of everything. Then you have the Fluffy Bunny New Age Quasi Neo Pseudo Druids who are perhaps comparable to the Jehova's Witnesses, who have some ideas about YHWH aka Jehova that nobody in the other denominations likes to hear at all, because They're Just Wrong, and they only go to show those crazy JW's have never read the Bible correctly.

I see things from this perspective because I've had to listen to my Uncle Thumper rant at family gatherings for years. He's an evangelical Protestant whose life mission is to convert all the heathen Catholics to True Christianity, and to stamp out that abomination, that evil cult of Jehova.

The original poster in this portion of the thread reminds me a great deal of Uncle Thumper. The fact is nobody owns words like "Druid" and "Arch-Druid" and "Danu" and there is simply no leg to stand on arguing that there is only one true and correct interpretation of these words. Period. Words change over time, and mean different things to different people.

Oh, let's take "actual" for example. Since whatever linguistic percursor to our English word "Druid" is more or less lost, it's difficult to say precisely what it was, or what it meant. As such, I won't try to uncover the Latin root for the word that became "actual" in English and "actual" in Spanish. It is sufficient to look at the present. In English, "actual" is roughly synonymous with "real." In Spanish, with close parallels in other Romance languages, the word "actual" means something like "existing at the present time." This is a bad false cognate, and there are innumerable similar examples. In this case, the incautious native Spanish speaker hears "You're really going to go through with that?" and translates in his head "You're going to go through with that right now?," which isn't what the speaker said at all.

I don't think any of these Fluffy Ne'er Do Wells are trying to say that they are right and you are wrong. You might return the favor in kind. Just think of it as a false cognate and get on with your life. If I call myself a "Druid" it doesn't mean the same thing as when you call yourself a "Druid," and we're both completely justified.

In the meantime, I'm glad to have washed my hands of this whole tangled skein by manufacturing a new artifact from bits and pieces of old ones, trimmed to fit, and painted a different color. I, for one, want nothing further to do with the controversy surrounding these disputed words, so I have invented new ones of my own. I'm not, in fact, cloning the religion I think of as "Druidry" either. What I'm coming up with is something that isn't quite anything else at all; a theological speciation event. It's as close to your Celtic Heathen Tradition as humans are to, say, spider monkeys or lemurs or something. Not even that much shared DNA, and they're morphologically very dissimilar, but they're both still primates.

[ap Dafydd]

I've been thinking about this one for a good while.

It comes down to this question. Are the Methodists raping the Catholics? Are the Jehova's Witnesses raping the Catholics? All three of the above worship the same deity, using permutations of the same book as a common point of reference, but they squabble all the time over who has legitimacy.

(much snippage)



You quite rightly say that all three brands of Christian have the same book.That's the thing about Christianity. If someone comes along and tries to claim that the Bible says that Jesus was a 9' dolphin from the planet Splod, it's a sufficiently well known document for the rest of Christianity to tell them to go away.

Celtic religion does not have a "book", it has a huge number of sources, some archaeological, some derived from old stories many times retold and redacted, some inferred from cultural context, and some derived from folk custom. That makes it susceptible not only to careful and sympathetic reinterpretation that sets seekers on the right path, but also to shallow and fantastic nonsense written to make a fast buck and for which I think the word "rape" isn't too strong.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Silvan]

You quite rightly say that all three brands of Christian have the same book.That's the thing about Christianity. If someone comes along and tries to claim that the Bible says that Jesus was a 9' dolphin from the planet Splod, it's a sufficiently well known document for the rest of Christianity to tell them to go away.That's true to a point, yes, but it's a bit simplistic. The problem with the Bible is actually rather similar, although different in degree. They don't have the same book at all. I've never been a Christian (as opposed to being a "recovering" Christian like many here at MW), but I've been attacked by Christians enough times that I have put some effort into reading their books, so I have something to throw back at them in defense. One of the most glaring things in trying to do this is that they have many, many books, and they don't all say the same thing at all. Even within the English language, there at least 16 different translations (and probably double or triple that) which don't agree with each other on this and that, and then there are other translations as well. Two in French that I know about, three in Spanish, the big Latin one. I've grazed all of these, and I can assure you it isn't hard to prove that they all say different and conflicting things.

So while the Christians do have a handy book, the question of picking which book is almost as involved as trying to decide which historical interpretations are the correct ones, and which ones are hateful rumors started by enemies of the "Celtic faith" (or whatever you'd prefer to call it.) On either side of this, it comes down to a question of having personal or cultural faith that your interpretation of things is the correct one, and there is plenty of "hard" evidence all around to back up just about any extreme of position on any question. This, to my mind, leaves room for the "we can't ever know for sure, but this is what we think is in keeping with the spirit of the ancients' intentions, if not the actual facts of their original practice" camp, which is the sort of "druid" I'd be if I hadn't decided to respect the strength of belief of those of you in the reconstructionist camp who would think I was raping you in so doing. (So you've won that argument, and I'm not using any of your words. Score one for the Reconstructionists. Bully for you.)

Although yes, I'd agree with you that a lot of these interpretations are shallow and fantastic nonsense. I hope individual readers can discern truth from poppycock. I hold few hard beliefs, but one is that deep inside myself is a little piece of the Protark, as I call it, and I can use this as a sounding board to sort out truth from fiction. If it doesn't feel true, it probably isn't, and you've got an up-hill battle swaying me without a toolbox full of hard evidence. If not, if I'm just a nutter, I don't actually think any of this matters anyway. Old, new, yours, mine, I believe that all religions are grossly inadequate, including science, atheism, and even Treekeeping. All we can do is spend a lifetime getting as close to the truth as possible, and laughing at all the shallow, ignorant fools who get it wrong and claim otherwise. Like ourselves.

[skilly-nilly]

...there is plenty of "hard" evidence all around to back up just about any extreme of position on any question.

Although yes, I'd agree with you that a lot of these interpretations are shallow and fantastic nonsense. I hope individual readers can discern truth from poppycock.


I so agree with your point that I decided to post about it in support.

Ordinarily I don't respond to posters who (however eloquently or passionately) are basically saying "I'm Right and you're Wrong, youse are all a bunch of Wankers" because really, what's the point. It just goes something like this:

If some Fluffy Faerie Flinging Foo-Foo wants to call hirself a 'Druid' who are you to say them nay? True, their 'path' cannot have much cultural or archeolgical validity, but the word is there for them to use if they will. Who handed the Ancient Druid Staff to your 'clann' to smack poseurs with?

In Silvan's support, however, it not only sounds like sects of differing Xians squabbling about what the Bible says but, even more childishly, like any counter-cultural group dissing the new hangers-on when their group becomes chic...

The 'hard-core' punks dumping on the 'wanna-bes'
The 'real' Pagans disparaging the 'fluffie newbies'
fill in your own group dynamic here

My advice is to just overlook it---soon 'Celtic' will become passé and then only the 'hard-cores' will remain. To squabble amongst themselves.

[CromanMacNessa]

My advice is to just overlook it---soon 'Celtic' will become passé and then only the 'hard-cores' will remain. To squabble amongst themselves.

Will there even be anything left of Celtic cultures by that time, or will they have been killed off by cultural imperialism and the New Age and Neo-Pagan Borg, who will then move on to rape some other culture (note well that I am not accusing all Neo-Pagans of being guilty of this behaviour)?

Down with the new Empire of Global Corporatism and Consumerism! We will not be sliced and diced and blended with New Age philosophy and Wiccan/Neo-Wiccan liturgy, packaged in styrofoam with a sexy picture and catchy name, and sold to the masses. Our Tradition is not part of the New Age and Neo-Pagan smorgasbord.

Remember one of the reasons Julius Caesar suggested for why the Dru-uides of Gaul didn't write their teachings down? So it would not become vulgar (common) property. And now any disaffected teen who has Celtic Ancestors believes that he/she can freely call himself or herself "a Druid," because "nobody knows what the Druids were and/or believed anyway." But that's not the case. There is more than enough material from Ancient and Early Mediaeval sources. True, it's not readily available; the books are often out of print and/or very expensive and/or not even translated into a modern Celtic language, let alone translated into modern English. So, yeah, the resources are somewhat out of reach for most people, but it wasn't readily available in the Iron Age, either (which is the point of the Gaulish Dru-uides not wanting it to become common property).

This misappropriation/assimilation has been going on for a long time (it didn't start in the 1980s, nor the 1970s, nor even the 1960s, but in fact goes back to the 1600s), and unless we draw the line somewhere, it's going to continue. The line is here drawn. "Druid" doesn't mean "whatever anybody wants it to mean." While there is diversity within the Celtic cultures, even from Tribe to Tribe, they are nevertheless Celtic, and a "Druid" is necessarily Celtic and Heathen --- and, which is likely to really annoy the LCD folk, a member of an élite Priesthood.

A "Druid" is a member of the Priesthood of a Celtic Heathen Tribe. Not a Christian Priest (and not even a Christian layperson). Not a follower of the Meso-Druidic philosophy of an initiatory Mystery order. Not the male version of a "Witch." Not a Nature Mage. Not a Nature Mystic.

(While a "Druid" is likely to engage in Nature Mysticism, that's hardly the extent of what it means to be a "Druid." While a "Druid" is likely to be concerned with Nature, and maybe with "Magic," those are also not the extent of what it means to be a "Druid.")

Those people in this Global Corporatist/Consumerist Empire who are seeking meaning/fulfillment/self-realisation/whatever really do have legitimate needs. But they should not seek to meet those needs at the expense of the already-endangered indigenous cultures of the world. But, to borrow wisdom from the Neo-Pagans themselves:

"And thou who thinkest to seek for me, know thy seeking and yearning shall avail thee not, unless thou knowest the mystery: that If that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, thou wilt never find it without thee. For behold, I have been with thee from the beginning; and I am that which is attained at the end of desire."

That is to say, what you seek is already where you are, within you, permeating you, all around you. You don't need to wrap yourself in Celtic titles and call on Celtic Gods and Goddesses. You need to be yourself, and not strive to be what you cannot be. If you can be Celtic, great, but before you know whether or not you can be Celtic, you have to know what "Celtic" means (and realise that there are many Celtic people, even many Celtic Heathen people, who are not part of the Priesthood, and in order to be a "Druid," you have to be Celtic and Heathen first --- meaning that the reading of one book, or a shelf full of books, is insufficient for becoming a "Druid," but still less sufficient is just waking up one day and deciding that one is a "Druid" on no basis whatsoever other than uninformed notions of what a "Druid" is).

Be yourself. That's what being a Pagan or Heathen is really all about. Don't try to be something you're not (and by all means, don't assume a title which you have not earned; hypocrisy is still hypocrisy, and falsehood is still falsehood, whether the hypocrite/pretender is a Christian or a Neo-Pagan --- or a Heathen).

Being a "Druid" is not some live-action role-playing game; it's a whole way of living and looking at the world and yourself. And it requires honesty. If you can't even bring yourself to be honest with yourself and others about what you are (and what you are not), you can't hope to be a "Druid."

[skilly-nilly]

a "Druid" is necessarily Celtic and Heathen --- and, which is likely to really annoy the LCD folk, a member of an élite Priesthood.


Who handed the Ancient Druid Staff to you?

[CromanMacNessa]

Who handed the Ancient Druid Staff to you?

Yes, cute, but hardly an effective counter-argument. Anyone who looks at the material honestly (as I have emphasized repeatedly) will know by their studies that what I have said is correct. Celtic Heathen Tradition is not "make it up as you go along." It has a very lengthy, and very certain history.

But since you asked, here's my answer (I'll even be literal instead of going into dark sayings):

Not hard. Collin MacCaulley, better known as "The Fluid Druid," ordained me in 1999 following several years of personal study with him as well as my own solo studies beforehand and my college and graduate work in Philosophy and Theology and Languages and History and Music. And my position is confirmed by the members of my Tuath. As for Collin, he was taught by his mother and by Harold "Tex" Preece. The Tradition taught by Collin's mother can be traced back to two brothers named Cantrell who arrived in the American Colonies from Britain in AD 1666 (Richard Cantrell was born in 1636). Further back than that it has yet to be traced (and may not be able to be traced back further than that, depending on the availability of records).

And you, o wise woman, who are you to demand such information?

[Dave the Druid]

The tone here is getting entirely out of hand.

From a socio-historical perspective there will always be the demise of smaller cultures in favour of more a homogenized polyglot. This is a great loss, but to try to stop it is as rational as trying to hold back the tide. Good luck!

[skilly-nilly]

And you, o wise woman, who are you to demand such information?

Exactly.

As I posted my previous post, I thought to myself, "If that guy is valid, he will drool his geneology back at me."

And a most impressive and validating geneology it is.

So you get to call yourself 'Druid'.

No contest. Who (or what), though, verifies your right to refuse to allow other people to call themselves 'Druids'? What you are saying (imo) is that anyone who wishes to be a 'Druid' has to apply for certification through you.

When Fluffy Faerie Flinging Foo-Foo posts, "Morrigan [sic] came to me and even though She was wearing a revealing black leather harness She still gave off a warm mommy-like kindliness so now I am a Druid Priestess." you can post disbelief and disapproval, you could refuse to let her into your tuath, but you can't stop her from calling herself a 'Druid' if she chooses to. Protestations of rape or not, it's not (imo) your gease to police the world for fake Druids like some kind of caped crusader.

Because what are you going to do to them when you find them? Say, "You can't be in my club! And the Druids in my
club are the only really truely Druids!! So there!!!!"

Personally, I think it's better to go for a point-for-point educational gambit rather than just flail around being exclusionary.


:nicetie: Actually kind of spookily I am a wisewoman, which I see as a socital position rather than as embodying 'wisdom'. I won't discuss my validation, but what I do is putter along grannying people with troubles, telling stories/parables, and doing hedge Magic to get their Spirits in line. I don't, however, call myself a 'Druid'.

[Dave the Druid]

Just a moment, I will get the towels.

[Silvan]

Being a "Druid" is not some live-action role-playing game; it's a whole way of living and looking at the world and yourself. And it requires honesty. If you can't even bring yourself to be honest with yourself and others about what you are (and what you are not), you can't hope to be a "Druid."

And round and round she goes... :zzzzZZZ: Is this thread over yet?

Let's go play Scrabble or something.

[ExcommunicatedDrui]

If a real Druid doesn't have the right to defend the Elder Ways against charlatans and their inaccuracies then who does? Legally there isn't anything we can do but we can call them down and show them up for what they are? I mean these people are misleading others who actually are seeking the truth.

[CromanMacNessa]

Who (or what), though, verifies your right to refuse to allow other people to call themselves 'Druids'? What you are saying (imo) is that anyone who wishes to be a 'Druid' has to apply for certification through you.

No, I'm saying the term is defined in the context of the culture. Outside of that context, the use of the term is meaningless.

Protestations of rape or not, it's not (imo) your gease to police the world for fake Druids like some kind of caped crusader.

As a custodian of Celtic Heathen culture (which is another way of defining "Druid"), it is within my authority to issue such statements.

Because what are you going to do to them when you find them? Say, "You can't be in my club! And the Druids in my
club are the only really truely Druids!! So there!!!!"

No, there are many valid interpretations, many different legitimate Tuatha, many differences of (informed) opinion. What characterises them all, however, is agreement on the cultural context of the use of the term.

Personally, I think it's better to go for a point-for-point educational gambit rather than just flail around being exclusionary.

And when the education includes the hard statements such as I have made in this thread, what then? There is a "parable" which applies here.

Once upon a time, there lived an American scholar. This fellow had PhD degrees out the wazoo, had been to the finest schools in the US, Germany, Scotland, and England. One day, he made a decision he had been considering for some time. He had heard of a great Zen Master living in Japan, and had long been curious, and he felt now was the time to meet this man and learn from him. So off he set. When he arrived at the home of the Zen Master, he was admitted cordially and sat down with the Teacher. After some preliminary chatter in which the scholar told this Japanese man about all his education, and all about how much he "knew" about Zen, the Zen Master asked him if he would like some tea, and he said that he would. The Zen Master went into the kitchen ...

Time passed ...

More time passed ...

Finally, the American began to grow concerned, so he arose and went into the kitchen, where he found the Zen Master running water from a faucet into a teapot. The teapot was full already; indeed, it was overflowing. Still the Zen Master stood there, running water into the teapot. The American asked him, "What are you doing?"

The Zen Master replied, "Filling the teapot with water."

The scholar stated, "But it's already full. It won't hold any more water unless you empty some out."

The Zen Master turned off the faucet, poured out some of the water, and placed the teapot on the stove to heat up, and walked back into the sitting room, followed by the curious American. When they had both sat down, the Zen Master looked at the American scholar, and said:

"Just as the teapot cannot hold any more water when it is already full, so I cannot teach you as long as you are already full of 'knowledge,' and full of yourself. To learn Zen, you must first become Mu (Empty)."

And they lived happily ever after.

The moral:

To learn any system, one must lay aside all that one thinks one knows, and begin from scratch. This does not mean that what has been learned in the past must be thrown away, only that it may or may not find any corresponding ideas in the system one seeks to learn, and may in fact get in the way of learning the new system. One may know well how to operate an automobile, but this does not qualify one to fly a jet fighter. Yes, they are both means of transportation, both vehicles, but they move in different spheres, operate on different principles, have different controls, travel at different speeds, etc. While there may be similarities, there are also some very meaningful differences. Learning to fly a jet does not require one to forget how to drive an automobile, but knowing how to drive an automobile may or may not be in any way helpful in this new course of study (and may in fact get in the way of the new learning), and learning to fly a jet may or may not be in any way helpful to one's ability to drive an automobile.

So it is with learning about a culturally-based religion. A person with little or no background in the culture cannot presume to know how the cultural context influences the whole shebang, and must admit ignorance before he or she can learn. Certainly such a person should not presume to define the terms of that culture apart from a thorough background therein, still less should such a person claim the office of Elder in that culture's Sacred Tradition.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

If a real Druid doesn't have the right to defend the Elder Ways against charlatans and their inaccuracies then who does? Legally there isn't anything we can do but we can call them down and show them up for what they are? I mean these people are misleading others who actually are seeking the truth.

We? What? You have a mouse in your pocket that's going to lend you aide? Your last two sentences contradict your own actions in another thread here at MW. You were "called down" (to use your own words) there and have yet to show your own validation.

[Fiona ni Giolla Rua]

Hello All

I have to say that I concur one hundred per cent with Croman, but then he and I practice separate but similar branches of the same tree, so it may not necessarily be serendipitous or coincidental that we often share similar or identical points of view.

In seeking self definition as regards modern druidry, perhaps it would be best if ppl identified themselves by whatever variety of 'druidry' they followed. This would prevent a great deal of misunderstanding between parties- if ppl were aware of various practices and how those practices/paths/traditions defined themselves, it would save a great deal of argument. Croman btw, has written an excellent article on that very topic.

For instance, if I introduce myself and say, I am a Celtic Revivalist...then one would know that in my tradition one must study many years to attain the title, and indeed the learning never ends-it becomes a lifetime dedicated to learning and serving as Croman has already touched upon. Also, one would also automatically know that the tradition I follow is self contained, with customs, laws and traditions and that it is narrowly defined according to culture and cultural tradition. In Celtic Revivalism not everyone is a druid, and our religious/faith practices are not druidry. (Croman and I differ somewhat in that opinion I believe- but I could be in error...I am very tired at the moment and not all of the cells are firing in full operational mode.-So please Croman, correct me if I am wrong.)
I try to avoid the words 'druidry' and 'druidism' as I tend to associate them with the neo-pagan/neo-druid movement. Within Celtic Revivalism only a few are Druids, but many follow the cultural ways of thier ancestors-these folk are lay or ordinary members of a tribal/cultural community.

I should also mention prior to Croman coining the phrase "Celtic Revivalism" the pratice had no name. Like many other traditional ppls, our way of living and being in the world was just that, and it had no formal name. It was just the way we lived and the way we are. I would like to add that the term coined by Croman was around for sometime before we up here in the great white north chose to identify with it...and only after careful scrutiny.

If I said I am a Meso druid it would be understood that I am following a historical druid path (dating from the 1700's) - in which learning may occur, but the program of study is not neccesssarily as involved as that of the Celtic Revivalist, and may perhaps be more focussed on self actualization-it may also be suited to individual/solitary or group study and distance learning...or if I said that I am a Neo druid, the listener would understand that that I am following a highly individualized, eclectic path which may draw from several cultures, and at times be rationalized because 'it feels right to me' . At the very least, the listener would understand that the Neo druid could believe and practice just about anything not limited to the Celtic cultures or Celtic traditional practices specifically.

Armed with this knowledge, one would then realize that each variety of *druid* expression treats the word *Druid* in very different manners. ie while we are all using the same word, each one will understand it differently according to the paradigm of thier own path and practices.

I, like Croman, am quite concerned with the rape of the Celtic culture(s). For that is what it is and I dont think it is too strong of a term.

For many years the words 'celtic' or 'druid' appearing in the title of any number of popular books has been a bone of contention and a thorn in my side. It seems that any text using that word in the title is assured decent sales esp. in the Occult section of any bookstore, regardless of whether the information contained therein is based on solid research/ fact or not. And in most cases not. Consequently misinformation and broad generalizations leading to error abound. Yet, when ppl are given or confronted with culturally correct information from one who has made it thier life's work, and/or who has grown up within the culture itself, they become resentful and indeed in many cases, openly hostile.

This puzzles me, for if one wishes to call oneself 'druid', wouldnt one naturally wish to be knowledgeable and accurate in thier knowledge? Otherwise, how can one claim to be a druid? Its a contradiction in terms. One of the functions of a druid is to be not only a repository of knowledge...but also, and perhaps more importantly, to be the respository and keeper of cultural tradition.

How can one call themselves druid, when they are completely disconnected from thier culture of origins? And when they are not connected to their ancestors?

Having followed the posts, it seems fairly safe to say that we all appear to agree that the Druids were a professional class within the Celtic culture...by natural extension then, as the profession of druid was limited to Celtic cultures, one could not be a Chinese druid, (a druid of chinese culture and tradition) or a Swahili druid. etc. Druids in those cultures did not exist.There are some who say that they are druid, but yet are not Celtic-how can this be? Again, its a contradiction in terms-But all of the foregoing truly depend upon how one is defining and using the word 'druid' as well as the terms tradition, culture etc.

There is a strong oral tradition within the still living culture, yet many are quick to discount it, as this information is not in any book. (keyword there being 'oral' duh) -and customs are not blanket, there are wide regional variations.

On the topic of genealogy and bloodline, it is culturally traditional to know one's bloodline and most ppl here do know theirs-again, part of family oral tradition. Many know where they came from, when they came, the boat they sailed on and why they came, and those stories and histories are still very much alive. It is an integral part of the culture to know who we are and where we come from, otherwise how can one know where one is going?

Croman was asked for his credentials and by what right he called himself Druid, and he gave them honestly. Yet this too was met with mocking derision. Why ask if you dont want to know? What is the point here?

No one is disputing anyone's right to call oneself whatever one wants...but I think we all need to be aware that those terms may mean different things to different ppl, and just because I call myself a doctor, doesn't make me one, and in so doing, I open myself up to be tested by another doctor regarding my knowledge. If I should fail in that test, well then, perhaps I am premature in calling myself doctor, and should use another term or no term at all until such time that I have the requisite knowledge and can pass the tests that a traditional doctor may put before me.

I havent been online in quite some time as I have been busy putting in extra long hours at work. And chances are, my checking of this thread periodically will be sporadic at best. I came to read the thread and respond to the posts, in response to a request to do so.Like Croman, according to the tradition I follow, I am obligated to do so on a number of levels. However, I feel that doing so in many respects is quite pointless because all such discussion seems to do is create an antagonistic atmosphere, which has already happened a couple of times on this thread, according to some of the snide uncalled for comments in some of the posts. I am becoming more and more convinced that this is especially nasty tendency within pagan nature which is completely counterproductive and unneccessary. Tolerance cannot occur within such a mileau, nor can exchange of ideas, knowledge, learning or any other intellectual exercise. This kind of nastiness reminds me of the same kind of behavior which occured back in the day (and which still occurs) between lineaged and non-lineaged Wiccans. Its pointless.


Blessings
F/|\

[ap Dafydd]

The problem with the Bible is actually rather similar, although different in degree.
Even within the English language, there at least 16 different translations (and probably double or triple that) which don't agree with each other on this and that, and then there are other translations as well. Two in French that I know about, three in Spanish, the big Latin one. I've grazed all of these, and I can assure you it isn't hard to prove that they all say different and conflicting things.

I'll stick to the Bugger All This translation in that case...

So while the Christians do have a handy book, the question of picking which book is almost as involved as trying to decide which historical interpretations are the correct ones, and which ones are hateful rumors started by enemies of the "Celtic faith" (or whatever you'd prefer to call it.)

Not sure that I'd dignify the purveyors of garbage with such strong words as "hateful" or "enemies" (ethnic cleansers like Simon James, maybe). Tourists, yes, ripoff merchants, yes, "I've made a few bob by writing a crap book on Wicca, let's see how much I can make by writing a crap book on Celtic", definitely.

On either side of this, it comes down to a question of having personal or cultural faith that your interpretation of things is the correct one, and there is plenty of "hard" evidence all around to back up just about any extreme of position on any question.

So long as your theories are congruent with the hard evidence, then I've not got major problems, I might think they're a bit speculative, but if they're backed up with sources, then fair enough. My problem is with the stuff that flies in the face of the hard evidence, quotes no genuine sources (or makes them up, or quotes other fantasists) and just misleads people.

This, to my mind, leaves room for the "we can't ever know for sure, but this is what we think is in keeping with the spirit of the ancients' intentions, if not the actual facts of their original practice" camp, which is the sort of "druid" I'd be if I hadn't decided to respect the strength of belief of those of you in the reconstructionist camp who would think I was raping you in so doing.

I'd describe myself as closer to CT than CR, but I'll not be pedantic about it.

Although yes, I'd agree with you that a lot of these interpretations are shallow and fantastic nonsense. I hope individual readers can discern truth from poppycock.

So do I, but then I'm grey, wrinkly, and academically minded (makes me sound like an elephant, I know...). But if you've got no background in the subject, then there's a big risk, especially when you're from a different culture altogether.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[CromanMacNessa]

In Celtic Revivalism not everyone is a druid, and our religious/faith practices are not druidry. (Croman and I differ somewhat in that opinion I believe- but I could be in error...I am very tired at the moment and not all of the cells are firing in full operational mode.-So please Croman, correct me if I am wrong.)
I try to avoid the words 'druidry' and 'druidism' as I tend to associate them with the neo-pagan/neo-druid movement. Within Celtic Revivalism only a few are Druids, but many follow the cultural ways of thier ancestors-these folk are lay or ordinary members of a tribal/cultural community.

I should also mention prior to Croman coining the phrase "Celtic Revivalism" the pratice had no name. Like many other traditional ppls, our way of living and being in the world was just that, and it had no formal name. It was just the way we lived and the way we are. I would like to add that the term coined by Croman was around for sometime before we up here in the great white north chose to identify with it...and only after careful scrutiny.


We're on the same page there. I generally avoid using the terms "Druidism" or "Druidry" to describe the religious aspects of the cultures in question (unless I put those terms in quotation marks, which should serve to indicate to the reader that I view the terms in question as inaccurate). Calling the religious aspects of Celtic culture "Druidism" or "Druidry" encourages the notion that any adherent of the religion is "a Druid (although people don't usually refer to adherents of Buddhism as "Buddhas," so it would seem more sensitive to the actual situation if such persons were called "Druidists" or the like, but that too would be a very inaccurate term ...).

As I have noted in my discussions of Celtic Revivalism on my site, the Draoidhean should actually form only a minority of the membership of a Celtic Revivalist Tuath (if the kitchen is full of chefs, then who waits tables, who runs the cash register, who chops the onions and peels the tomatoes, who tends the bar, etc?), because such a Tuath should be an entire society, with all the Dumézilian/Platonic functions being fulfilled, and not just some kind of Celtic Heathen monastery full of Priest(esse)s with no congregation but each other, and because there aren't many who have what it takes (in terms of the Gift and/or in terms of serious dedication) to earn the office of Draoidh.



In another message in this thread, something else was said which caught my eye:

I'd describe myself as closer to CT than CR, but I'll not be pedantic about it.

I wasn't entirely comfortable with the attitudes/beliefs/practices of either Celtic Traditionalism or Celtic Reconstructionism, so I came up with my own designation, "Celtic Revivalism," which shares features with both CT and Celtic Recon, but also has its own characteristic features (meaning it's not just a middle path between the two, but a genuine Third Option, although it has at times been explained as a variation of CT, and probably has more in common with CT than with Celtic Recon); however, I regard all three as cultural expressions and therefore all more or less on the same page. You can read about Celtic Revivalism (and other types of groups that use the term "Druid" or "Draoidh" or "Derwydd" or whatever) in the following articles:

http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/celticrevivalism.msnw (http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/celticrevivalism.msnw)

http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/varieties.msnw (http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/varieties.msnw)

http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/termproponents.msnw (http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/termproponents.msnw)

[Dave the Druid]

I've thought about his in the shower this morning. :tub:

Who decides who is a Druid? After one of the previous posts, this came to mind as a question. I considered that the OBOD might have a problem with you calling them not Druid enough; or the RDNA for that matter.

ap Dafydd, I think we share a great deal, not the least is the formality of education and more than a few grey hairs. I also take by your "name" here that you are of the Cymru. Side note; have you noticed that much of the terminology used here is Irish? Rather leaves out the Cymru and Cornish, or other branches. You left out hippopotamus or rhinoceros.

BTW; Mabon Blessings to All.

[CromanMacNessa]

Who decides who is a Druid? After one of the previous posts, this came to mind as a question. I considered that the OBOD might have a problem with you calling them not Druid enough; or the RDNA for that matter.

A community of people who are firmly grounded in the cultural Tradition decides who is a "Druid."

As far as OBOD and RDNA, I'm not really much concerned with those groups having a problem with what I say. As I've asked before (here: http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/termproponents.msnw (http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/termproponents.msnw) ) what right did those groups have to expropriate the titles of the Elders of a culture of which they were not (and are not) members and redefine those terms to suit themselves? You can redefine "Rabbi" to mean "a follower of a religion that advocates the chanting of 'Hare Krishna'," but it still doesn't mean that a Hindu Vaishnava is a Rabbi. You can redefine "circle" as "a plane geometrical figure having four equilateral sides and four right angles," but it still doesn't mean that a square is a circle to an actual Mathemetician.

Note that I'm not saying that the groups are invalid as religious/philosophical paths, nor that nothing good has ever come out of OBOD and RDNA; what I'm saying is that very few (I won't say "none," because I know some RDNA members who have the cultural context and are quite serious about their religion and the culture) of the members of those organisations have earned the office and title of "Druid" in the cultural context that gives the term meaning, and that the organisations themselves should not, if they wish to be honest and accurate, apply the term to themselves. OBOD's teaching is more akin to a mix of Gnosticism, generic Nature Mysticism, and generic Neo-Paganism than it is to Celtic Heathen Tradition, and RDNA is (generally) more akin to a blend of Universalism, an episode of Monty Python's Flying Circus, and eclecticism than it is to Celtic Heathen Tradition. The only thing that would make either group's use of the term "Druid" proper would be Celtic Heathen cultural context, and neither group seems much interested in that (as an organisation, though some individual members are more interested than either group itself). The truth of the matter may be uncomfortable to some people, but it's still the truth.

[Dave the Druid]

Good thing I didn't mention the BDO.

[skilly-nilly]

The way I see it, there is no group that has an inalienable 'right' to bestow or deny the title of 'druid' outside
their own group because there are just toooo many groups that use the same terminology to mean vastly different things.

It's the same pointless squabble as the one between coven-initiated and non-covened 'Wiccans', or the one about 'self-dedication' and 'self-initiation'. In all cases Revivalists, BTWiccans, and group initiates have a perfectly good argument denying the 'right' to fluffy 'Druids', non-initiated Wiccans, and solitary
'initiates' to do whatever they will, but it's pointless (imo).

And it sets up adviserial fallout:
You say "I deny you the right to call yourself Druid" _firedevil
Fluffy-Druid says, "You can't stop me; Morrigan [sic] self-initiated me!" :nyah:

Personally, I think knowledge is better served by education. I think that an invitation to discuss the history of Stonehenge, the difference between a sister triad and a MMC trilogy, rambling anecdotes about Irish cultural heritage work a lot better than taking a stand on the high holy ground of 'right'.
"I deny you the right!' is (to me) the club and the wall;
"I think the historical facts are otherwise..." is the cup and the gate.

It depends where you want to end up.


It seems to me that you (on some level) agree with this, if I can exerpt from your fine, logical, and stellar essay that you pointed to:

At the same time, as I've already said, I don't want to put myself in the position of declaring who is and who is not this or that... I am also not generally prepared to declare that a particular person is not "a Druid."


My opinion is that your lineage, education, and rôle in your tuath give you the right to call yourself a Druid, but my opinion counts for nothing. On the other hand, when Fluffy-'Druid' answers the question 'What do you mean by 'Druid'?' with silliness, I (in my own head) call them something else but, again, it makes no never mind to them.

On the gripping hand, I don't call myself a Druid; it is a term that I think has lost any specific meaning in the generalized world. I think culture is preserved in the culture itself and not in the outside world at all.

[Dave the Druid]

Fair point skily.

I consider education to be one of the foundations of Druidry.

I am also very put out by the lack of reference to Cymru (Wales). At the risk of being very self-serving, Angelsea is the only area where we have direct historical and archeological evidence of Druids as a specific place where they lived, learned and trained.

[Fiona ni Giolla Rua]

Hello again
Perhaps a point is being missed here.
No one is denying the right of anyone to call themselves anything.
However, to repeat my earlier point, it is important that when a word such as 'druid' has so many different meanings to so many different ppl, perhaps it is wise to define how one uses the term when one uses it.
What a druid is, and who is a druid heavily depends upon one's frame of reference and wor