Cerridwen?

[IvyWitch]

Can someone help me out, because I'm very confused. I am looking for information on Cerridwen, but there seems to be conflicting information on whether or not she was an actual Goddess. A few of the non-pagan related mythology sites say that she was just a witch, whereas a lot of pagan sites say she's a Goddess. 0.o So lost....

[ancestral_lee]

its a bit difficult to say as none of the mythogy mentions that any of the 'gods' are gods or goddesses.

does it matter if she wasnt a goddess?

[Seren_]

It can be a contentious issue with most of the Welsh deities. There have been arguments over it for years in academic circles.

It basically boils down to the idea that a lot of the characters in Welsh myth don't really display "godlike" qualities compared to other myths. Supernatural qualities certainly, but this doesn't necessarily indicate divinity.

Many academics will say that Rhiannon, for example, displays divine qualities because of her association with horses - she takes on the role of a horse in her story, a motif found in Irish myth (with Macha) as well. We also know from archaeology that there were goddesses associated specifically with horses (Epona, for eg) or other animals. So the odds are good that there's something divine going on with Rhiannon.

Blodeuwedd, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish. Many modern pagans see her as a maiden goddess, or goddess of flowers, but most academics will argue she is not; she is a supernatural being created by Gwydion in order to provide a bride for Llew Llaw Gyffes...She might be made out of flowers, but she doesn't exactly do much else with them, does she? In addition, few would say Gwydion is god-like, but Llew, by virtue of his similarities with Lugh and Lugos, is often given god-status...

However...some academics will point out that Welsh myth in particular suffers from the fact that it was written down at a later time than the Irish myths, which many academics feel preserve the more divine aspects of myth more clearly. Because of this time lag, these academics argue that the stories have had much more time to be changed, diluted, misunderstood and Christianised than other myths. Therefore, the more divine elements of the characters in the myth might be missing through the virtues of time (and possibly Christian decency of the scribes...). That some characters can be called divine (ie Rhiannon), whereas others not divine (Blodeuwedd) indicates something of a lack of continuity - either in the academics arguments, or the treatment of the characters by the scribes when the stories were being written down. Who knows?

As for Ceridwen, there are certainly elements in her tales that indicate aspects of divinity - her cauldron, being a common "Celtic" motif, and its association with wisdom and knowledge which traditionally have their roots in the Otherworld (in Irish myth, anyway...). How you perceive her will depend on your own experiences with her, I guess.

[AnuCailleach]

Don't know if this will help at all but here is a snippet of an article I just came across in my search for celtic info:

"The major part of the article is then an exploration of the mythos of two triple Goddesses: (1) ANU—DANU—TAILTIU (Goddess of Sources, Springs and the Earth) and (2) the Celtic Lunar Goddess – BOANN—BRIGHID—CERIDWEN, mentioning ways of encountering these Goddesses today, through chant, meditation and imaging."

The author has been studying celtic mythology for some time. If you'd like the entire article, feel free to pm me.

Blessings,
Anu

[IvyWitch]

does it matter if she wasnt a goddess?
Well, it's not going to affect my life personally if she isn't, but if I'm trying to learn about Celtic mythology I should ask if I'm confused. Is there something wrong with my asking this question?

[Anubis RainHawk]

You might want to check this site: http://www.owlsdottir.com/goddess/fire/cerridwen.html

[DraoinanDuanaire]

The "god or not god" question will never be settled. What is a god?

If a being can display power far above that which I or most other humans are capable of (I mean far above), are they a god? Would you care to argue the point with them? :yikes:

The thing of it is that the information academics tend to study portrays the gods (or beings that I myself consider to be gods) as mere metahumans. Like superheroes before there were superheroes. To people raised in a context of "a god (or the god, because there's only one, you know) is omniscient and omnipotent", this obviously tends to indicate that the gods in question aren't really gods, but mythic heroes or exaggerated tales of extraordinary people. This wasn't really a popular idea in pre-Christian Europe; no god was omniscient or omnipotent (and they're still not, because that's just a silly idea).

[ancestral_lee]

i think id go with the idea that Cerridwen is a 'superhuman' rather than a 'goddess' in the classical sense.

i have had an on off relationship with her quite a few years now and its only when you start to accept some inevitable matters that you can settle down and get on with it.

the inevitable matter in quiestion is 'does it matter?'. in my case..no it didnt becuase whether she is or isnt a goddess she is still there, still guiding and still offering advice.

my opinion of the welsh gods especially is that they arose from a culture which stems back to ancestor worship - in the sense that the ancestors were honoured and venerated by thier families, in time these ancestral spirits were 'elevated' to more godlike status. tribal ancestors merged and became more godlike as they were 'worshipped' and called upon for help.

the person we see as cerridwen today is quite possibly an amalgm of a couple of ancestral spirits and i see nothin wrong in adding to her and what she means and encompasses - in particular the two 'mythological/folklore imges of Hen Wen and Moch Ddu Gyto - 2 opposing pig characters you can find in welsh folklore and myth.

gods have always changed and evolved and we shouldnt be afraid to carry this on.

lee

[raven grimassi]

Can someone help me out, because I'm very confused. I am looking for information on Cerridwen, but there seems to be conflicting information on whether or not she was an actual Goddess. A few of the non-pagan related mythology sites say that she was just a witch, whereas a lot of pagan sites say she's a Goddess. 0.o So lost....

Typically, in Celtic lore, the "wen" part of a name is rendered to mean "white" which is frequently a reference to the Otherworld. In this context we can view her as not among the mortal class, which may also be suggested by her ability to shape-shift at will.

As to being a goddess in the classical sense, it is difficult to say as we know relatively very little about Celtic deities in general when compared to many other ancient cultures. It is interesting to note, however, that Cerridwen and the Roman goddess Ceres share much in common. This may or may not be a sign post.

Like Cerridwen, Ceres possessed a mystical cauldron that created a magical brew. Cerridwen's brew consisted of yellow flowers known as the Pipes of Lleu (cowslip), fluxwort (Gwion's silver), hedge-berry (the borues of Gwion), vervain (Taliesin's cresses), and mistletoe berries mixed with sea foam. In Greek tradition the cauldron of Ceres contained a brew of herbal ingredients that were also mixed with sea water. According to lore, the Cauldron of Cerridwen was warmed by the breath of nine maidens and produced an elixir that conferred Inspiration. This same theme appears in Greek lore where we find the nine Muses who gave Inspiration to humans.

Cerridwen's Cauldron was said to have a ring of pearls around its rim. It was located in the realm of Annwn (the Underworld) and, according to Taliesin's poem The Spoils of Annwn, the fire beneath it was kindled by the breath of nine maidens, and oracle speech issued forth from it. This is similar to the lore associated with the Greek Muses who were connected to the Oracle at Delphi.

In all of this we may be looking at a goddess figure, but then again the question has been posed on this thread as to what constitutes a goddess. One metaphysical view is that a personification of the Divine as a goddess or a god is an "egregore" form. An egregore, in this context, is a mental image given form by the beliefs of a people. It takes root in the astral dimension. Its appearance in the astral material causes a response of divine emanation, and this results in the "impregnation" of the egregore with divine consciousness. So, in effect, an egregore is an aspect of divine consciousness given form by the human mind, which then becomes a sentient being known as a particular goddess or god. In this theory, Cerridwen would "qualify" as a goddess in modern times.

Best regards - Raven