Truth Spell

[GoddessofWisdom]

Cerenity

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You need
1 white candle
white flower petals
1 picture, or the persons name on a piece of paper
A spell box
Cast the circle
After casting the circle lite the candle and lay the picture down infront of it. Put the petals in the spell box and then say:

Silence now thy lieing tongue
Only truth and honesty come
from thy lips and from thy tongue
Til the next full moon doth come

As you say this burn the picture in the candle flame. Once it is turned to ash, take the spell box with the white petals and put the ashes in the box. Keep it til the next moon then throw its contents to the winds.

[GoddessofWisdom]

I know many how find it best not to follow rituals/spells word for word but to put your own thoughts and energy into them

[Xander67]

interesting lil spell...

ive heard that if you sprinkle Basil in someone's hair it has the same effect, but there is an encantation to be said over the basil before using it....

[Mythrel]

will have to give it a try sometime. will post how well it worked for me...
Mythrel

[Faolan]

two questions,

1: what's a spell box and where can you get it?
2: How do you properly cast a circle, I never could find out.

[Myst]

A box is a box, just consecrate one for use.

And you should really leave this spell alone anyway if you donno how to cast a circle yet (well, if you're into casting circles for spellwork) :)

Search the web or check out any beginner books by SRW or Cunningham or the Farrars or Starhawk or Galenorn etc. to learn how to cast a circle (SpiralDance by Starhawk is a favourite for almost everyone, I also like the SRW books).

[Swanspirit]

I did a TRUTH working on someone once........ ROFLMAO I have to laugh ..... THEY really did tell the truth.... but only for a short time....... and immediateley after it wore off they went right back to twisting the truth ........to suit their manipulations ..... and they still are.........and the people who wanted to believe them did .........and as Goddess is my witness.........they believe them still to this day...... and probably always will.......
The only thing that was a positive outcome for me .....was my own personal satisfaction KNOWING this person to be the incredible liar they are.......I have long since written off the people who believe it as not even knowing the "sound of truth" when they hear it ........ it has a ring to it ...... like a clear bell or a "true note"......of music .......
like the difference between someone who thinks they can sing and screeetches like a dying animal ......
and someone with a "true" voice......
So you can try it ....... and you might even get results .. but everyone has free will and if someone wants to LIE they will ......regardless.....

Love and light
Swannie

[Faolan]

thanks Myst. I'll have to scrounge up some money somewhere to look into some of those books :)

(this is the problem with being 15, and having a VERY VERY christian mom) :scream:

[Myst]

This should save you some money - check out this link and then search Yahoo! etc. for "circle casting" - http://www.omphalos.net/bosh/main.html

[slvr_phoenix]

Of course a truth spell, like any magick, is a contest of energies. It only works so well as the energies that you put into it outweight the energies everyone else has set against it. Which is why truth spells are generally a waste of time. If someone is going to lie, then the truth spell just won't hold long against the energy they put into lying. The same as healing someone who is self-destructive is usually a waste of time and effort as well, because it will only work so long as the energy that you've raised outweighs the energy that they are raising.

Of course, truth spells are also a very touchy mess to work with, because our expectations of what the truth is can influence a person to say what we want them to say just as much as it can influence them to tell the truth. It all depends upon the desires in our hearts as the magick is cast and active. So again, truth spells are generally a waste of effort because in order for it to actually be a truth spell and not just manipulating someone to say what we want them to say spell, we have to achive that higher state of consciousness where we no longer care what is said. That's where the catch comes in, because if we didn't actually care what was said, then would we be trying to get to the 'truth' instead of just accepting their words at face value?

That's why when it comes to obtaining the truth from people, the best methods aren't done with magick. When your tool is the influence of reality and you're trying to get to the root of reailty, then more often than not you're going to just influence reality to what you want it to be instead of see it as what it really is.

Discovering the underlying truth is what science is for, not magick.

[Swanspirit]

"So again, truth spells
are generally a waste of effort because in order for it to actually be
a truth spell and not just manipulating someone to say what we
want them to say spell, we have to achive that higher state of
consciousness where we no longer care what is said. "
Not necessarily true in my example......... because sometimes when the TRUTH comes out it is a surprise to all involved.........as it was to me as well... I had no idea this person was CONSCIOUSLY LYING and deliberately manipulating until she admitted it and SHOWED me how she was doing it......WAY MORE came out than I expected.......... I just wanted to find out what the TRUTH was........ there were several poosiblities and the one I had in mind wasnt the case at all .......
Love and Light
Swannie

[Adrenaline Junkie]

I think one shouldn't target a person, but a situation. We all have the right to know the truth, and by targeting a situation rather than a person, we're not harming anyone.

[Swanspirit]

" I think one shouldn't target a person, but a situation. We all have
the right to know the truth, and by targeting a situation rather than
a person, we're not harming anyone."
I think this is a very interesting perspective
AS in....... let the TRUTH be known for all to see
three times three ...........
LOL sorry I have to laugh because really .... as in the instance I gave ...... you dont know what will come out.. but that is a risk you have to take if you are willing to do this.....it reminds me of Pandoras box........ you wont know what you will let out....... until it reveals itself......
Thank you
Swannie

[slvr_phoenix]

Swannie, again though we come to the question: If you weren't expecting them to say something other than what they were saying was 'the truth', then you would have just accepted what they were saying as the truth. The mere fact that you believed them to not be telling the truth is sending out energies that you want them to say something other than what they said was 'the truth'. If in such a case they were indeed telling the truth then these energies of distrust and disbelief are going to compell them to then say something different. And anything different from the truth is, of course, a lie.

So the likelyhood of anyone successfully using a truth spell on someone to obtain the truth is highly unlikely. At best you can only hope to obtain something different from what they've already said. And if they were actually telling the truth in the first place, you've now compelled them to lie.

This is one of the main reasons why truth spells should really be avoided and instead psychology and judgement from a nonpartial third party be used to determine 'the truth'.

And, of course, compelling anyone to do anything against their will is always up to ethical debate. But that kind of conversation belongs in theology.

But as Adrenaline Junkie sagely pointed out, if one is going to cast a 'truth' spell (and I use the term loosely for the reasons given above) then it is best to target a situation rather than a person.

And I'd still like to point out that as a contest of energies, any spell will only last so long as opposing energies don't outweigh what was put into the spell, making truth spells very ineffective when used on perpetual liars.

[Swanspirit]

"This is one of the main reasons why truth spells should really be
avoided and instead psychology and judgement from a nonpartial
third party be used to determine 'the truth'. "

Oh my .....back then.... I got an email about this whole thing from someone claiming to be just that( a nonpartial third party ) and it turned out to be a complete lie too.....

But I thing SHOULDS are to be avoided.... and truth spells are very old and have been used to great effect by people........ ancients even had "ordeals" for telling the truth...... so there is an entire history and tradition concerning discerning the truth.........and the means of obtaining it........
So liars have been with us for along time it seems and as I said .... people who are going to lie will do so anyway ..... and my only satisfaction is knowing what the truth is....... and knowing that the LIAR knows as well.........but you see SHE has to live with it ..... inside HER ........ I dont........ so for me the working was highly effective......so it was a very personal thing ......
and I tend to think these are the kinds of decisions about doing magic that the individual needs to make for themselves...and learn from experience ..... not anyone telling they shouldnt do this or that kind of magic or what kind of magic they SHOULD DO..... that is up to the individual.....and their own choice.
I would say well LEARN and RESEARCH it and make a decision based on what you have learned......
Love and Light
Swannie

[Swanspirit]

here are some examples of "ordeals "
LOL someone wanted to get at the truth!!!!
DONT try some of these at home!!!!!!! I like the one where you draw the Stones........
. The Ordeal.

The use of the ordeal for determining truth or falsehood, guilt or innocence, was developed from
prehistoric times in Ireland: but the germs were, no doubt, brought hither by the earliest colonists. The
Irish had their own ordeals, in which were some peculiarities not found among other nations of
Europe. Most originated in pagan times, but, as in England and elsewhere, the ordeal continued in
use for many centuries after the general adoption of Christianity.

In the Book of Ballymote there is a list and description of twelve different kinds of ordeal used by
the ancient Irish. Among these were the following :-

"Morann's Collar"

of which the common version of the legend is this - The great brehon or judge, Morann, had a collar,
which, if placed round his neck, or round the neck of any judge, contracted on his throat if he
delivered a false or unjust judgment, and continued to press more tightly, ever till he delivered a
righteous one. Placed on the neck of a witness, if he bore false testimony it acted similarly, until it
forced him to acknowledge the truth.

"The Adze of Mochta"

the metal head of an adze was made red-hot in a fire of blackthorn or of tlie quicken-tree, "and the
[tongue of the accused] was passed over it: it would burn the person who had falsehood: but would
not burn the person who was innocent."

The "Three Dark Stones"

A bucket was filled with bog-dust, charcoal, and other kinds of black stuff, and three little stones,
white, black, and speckled, were put into it, buried deep in the black mass, into which the accused
thrust down his hand: if he drew the white stone, he was innocent: if the black one, he was guilty: and
if he drew the speckled one, he was half guilty."

The "Caldron of truth"

was a vessel of silver and gold. "Water was heated in it till it was boiling; into which the accused
plunged his hand: if he was guilty, the hand was burned: if not, it was uninjured.

"Lot-casting"

- in several forms-was very common as an ordeal.

"Luchta's iron"

the druids having first uttered an incantation over a piece of iron, put it in a fire till it was red-hot. It
was then placed in the hand of the accused: and "it would burn him if he had guilt: but would not
injure him if innocent."

"Waiting at an altar"

The person was to go nine times round the [pagan] altar, and afterwards to drink water over which a
druid's incantations had been uttered. "If the man was guilty, the sign of his transgression was made
manifest in him [by some bodily disfigurement]: if innocent, he remained unharmed." Observe the
striking resemblance of this last to the Jewish ordeal for a woman suspected of misconduct, as we
read in the Book of Numbers, chapter v.
Ths stuff is so interesting.....
and there is an oath too that if broken brings dire consequences as told here ....
Elemental Oath

No doubt this ancient elemental worship was the origin of the very general pagan Irish custom of
swearing by the elements, or, in other words, giving the elements as guarantee: an oath which it was
believed very dangerous to violate, as is shown by the fate of Laegaire, king of, Ireland in the time of
St. Patrick. In an attempt to exact the Boruma tribute from Leinster, he was defeated and taken
prisoner by the Leinstermen: but was released on taking the usual oath, giving as guarantee - i.e.,
swearing by - the "sun and moon, water and air, day and night, sea and land," that he would never
again demand it. But in open violation of his oath he invaded Leinster (A.D. 463) for this same
Tribute in less than two years: whereupon - as the Four Masters express it - " the sun and wind
killed him because he had violated them": "for" says an older authority, the Book of the Dun
Cow-"no one durst violate them at that time."

So indded the truth was of great import
I like that oath......
Love and Light
Swannie

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Adrenaline Junkie
I think one shouldn't target a person, but a situation. We all have the right to know the truth, and by targeting a situation rather than a person, we're not harming anyone.

Excellent point, AJ! (do you mind if I call you AJ?;-)) As far as most magic is concerned, it's wisest to target situations instead of individual people - cept where healing rites are concerned, but that's a whole nuthter ball of wax.

[Myst]

Incidentally, this is off topic, but lately it has been brought to the attention of the MW staff that it would be appropriate that, if members share passages or excerpts from books or websites, they should cite the author. This helps protect the member and MW of any copyright issues might arise.

So, in the future, please cite a source when posting text from another book, author, or website.

Back on topic, my thoughts are that either someone tells me the truth anyway or I don't want to talk to them. If a truth spell was necessary, I would ask a deity (probably Hekate atm) for clarity and justice, in BOTH parties. But, evidently I haven't dealt with an issue where knowing the truth was paramount. So take it or leave it. :)

[Xander67]

I never really thought about it like that, although I am careful not to direct any magicaL work at anyone directly unless it is asked for or in dire life or death matters.... a truth spell would not be a life or death matter...

but I agree with Myst, if you have to hex someone to get them to tell you the truth, then why even bother with that person...

[Lavender]

So, rather than perform a truth spell on someone else, it would be better to perform a spell on yourself to let you discern if the person is telling the truth or not.

[Swanspirit]

very frequently works that way anyway......
because when the truth comes out it just comes out!!! and you have to deal with what is there...
Love and HUGS
Swannie

[Swanspirit]

if
members share passages or excerpts from books or websites, they
should cite the author. "This helps protect the member and MW of
any copyright issues might arise. "
But sometimes have old files without sources exactly .. or something comes in email without a source..... but if one is found wil be happy to supply it.... I usually do ......

" If a truth spell was
necessary, I would ask a deity (probably Hekate atm) for clarity and
justice, in BOTH parties."
I agree with this too.....especially the clarity part..... but sometimes the clarity comes after the truth has been dicovered..... like finding out someone is cheating, stealing , or lying.... etc etc......
Love and Light
Swannie

[Myst]

Wildchild : yes, exactly, or if it involves matters such as court cases or someone you know this person is lying to, you might rather do a spell for clarity of the matter rather then doing one on anyone to make them discern the truth more effectively.. at least IMHO :)

[slvr_phoenix]

Very good points Wildchild and Myst. Even if that doesn't fully determine the real truth, it will at least help point you in the right direction. But then, that's also where divination can help as well, to see what is really there without influencing it.

(Though if you're emotionally invested there, then divinational results can be skewed by your expectations, which is why we come again to nonpartial third parties as excellent tools in times like this.)

And yes, truth spells themselves can be done and can work, but the emount of energy that one needs to invest and the ability to be completely open to all possabilities make successful use of truth spells rare and often done with great success only by those who are truely skilled and enlightened. That's been my experience anyway. And when there are other more effective means of getting the truth than a truth spell (such as a clarity spell, divination, psychology, mediation between the involved parties, etc., etc.) it just seems to me to be generally a waste of time and energy to charge at it head on with a truth spell.

Swanspirit, you said, "I got an email about this whole thing from someone claiming to be just that( a nonpartial third party ) and it turned out to be a complete lie too". My first thought was: How did you know that it was a complete lie? What if it hadn't been, and instead had been the very desired result of the truth spell you sought, where you could have gotten help from a nonpartial third party? And because of your belief that everyone was lying, you spurned it and turned away the results of the very energies you sent out to help you? You might believe that you know, but in all reality, you may never really know the truth.

Forgive my rambling, but my point is that when we actively disbelieve someone's words, we aren't leaving ourselves open to the possability that they might have been the truth and we're the ones confused on what is and isn't the truth. Which is again, why a nonpartial third party can be of great benefit, because if they aren't emotionally invested in the words of either side then they won't be closing their minds to any possabilities.

[Swanspirit]

me .... (someone in the little group) and asked me not to tell who told... that might have been a lie too....... you are right..... at any rate....someone was lying.......maybe both.... several people actually ......so again you are right .. it wasnt worth the energy wasted to think that someone was a friend that really wasnt......and a whole entire group of people invested in lying .... at least I knew to get out of a nest of vipers.....but that is history and water over the dam .............sometimes when you ask for the truth you might be surprised at what turns up........just like any spell ........watch what you ask for you just might get it.......
Love and Light

[Da Witch]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
"So again, truth spells
are generally a waste of effort because in order for it to actually be
a truth spell and not just manipulating someone to say what we
want them to say spell, we have to achive that higher state of
consciousness where we no longer care what is said. "
Not necessarily true in my example......... because sometimes when the TRUTH comes out it is a surprise to all involved.........as it was to me as well... I had no idea this person was CONSCIOUSLY LYING and deliberately manipulating until she admitted it and SHOWED me how she was doing it......WAY MORE came out than I expected.......... I just wanted to find out what the TRUTH was........ there were several poosiblities and the one I had in mind wasnt the case at all .......
Love and Light
Swannie

I 100% agree Dear


If you are concentrating on what you want the person to tell you instead of concentrating onhaving the person tell their truth than the spell would have been a complete waste of your time;)

You said it better