"Descent of the Goddess" in Celtic myth?

[Ben Gruagach]

I was wondering if anyone can point out anywhere in Celtic myth where there is a "Descent of the Goddess" type of story.

I know that in Greece the story involved Persephone, and in the Middle East it was Inanna who went to the Underworld and then returned.

Does this story occur in Celtic myth? I'm curious.

[John_Mischief]

Mm...not that I can recall really. The underworld and the otherworld are sometimes the same place in a lot of Celtic myth, so it's hard to really discern that sort of thing.

[Darakash]

Hmmm, now I am curious too....especially after reading this op/ed piece:

http://www.paganlibrary.com/editorials/descent_into_confusion.php

[Ben Gruagach]

Hmmm, now I am curious too....especially after reading this op/ed piece:

http://www.paganlibrary.com/editorials/descent_into_confusion.php

Thanks for the link to that article! It explained a lot of what I was wondering about.

After reading that article I was thinking some more and I guess the closest I can think off off the top of my head where a woman goes to the underworld in Celtic myth comes from stories about the faeries. Sometimes people are said to be abducted by the fey -- with a woman, it's because she is so beautiful that she is kidnapped to be a fey man's wife. It's similar, I guess, to the story of Persephone being kidnapped by Hades and taken to the other realm. The problem with making that connection is that the faerie kidnapping doesn't seem to have any connection to the change in seasons, and the woman is a mortal and not a goddess. The faerie story seems to be more about explaining why a woman has gone missing rather than holding some sort of Divine significance.

And the other Celtic myths that are sort of similar that I can think of are ones like Arthur and his knights going into a secret cavern and going to sleep there to be awakened when Britain has a time of true need. Again, it's really hard to see that as being an obvious variation of the "Descent of the Goddess" as the only thing they have in common is a demi-god or divine figure going to an underground realm.

Any others? I don't know Celtic myth enough so I'm sure I must be missing things.

[John_Mischief]

Well, if you're just talking about people going into the otherworld/underworld, it happens a lot. Faeries take people, people go on quests to otherworldly islands, people become lovers of faeries and go live on their islands/in their mounds.

None specifically about goddesses though. In fact, most of the people going are mortal men, with a some exceptions of Gods/Faeries taking mortal lovers and making them stay in their realms.

With Celtic mythology, you don't get a lot of the same themes that show up in other major cultures. They have plenty of their own in-themes, but not a lot of your basic "explaining myths" and creation stories type stuff.

[DraoinanDuanaire]

Does this story occur in Celtic myth?

Not really.

[nightstream]

Warning - a bit O.T.

You know, while we were talking about creationism vs. evolution in my Psychology of Religion class this morning, I was thinking about the fact that (to my knowledge) there is no "Celtic" creation myth. We were talking about how the conflicts over evolution seem to mostly come out of Christian traditions (though our prof mentioned that Islam is having issues with this as well, currently), and we began wondering if other religious traditions had issues with evolution. Makes me wonder if CR folk and other people that base their beliefs in Celtic myth have less problems with evolution than traditions with creation myths...
Though it may be a non-issue, since very few Pagan-ish folk that I've met hold a very literalist creationism view... heh...

Anyway. Sorry. Back to the topic, yes.

[John_Mischief]

Warning - a bit O.T.

You know, while we were talking about creationism vs. evolution in my Psychology of Religion class this morning, I was thinking about the fact that (to my knowledge) there is no "Celtic" creation myth. We were talking about how the conflicts over evolution seem to mostly come out of Christian traditions (though our prof mentioned that Islam is having issues with this as well, currently), and we began wondering if other religious traditions had issues with evolution. Makes me wonder if CR folk and other people that base their beliefs in Celtic myth have less problems with evolution than traditions with creation myths...
Though it may be a non-issue, since very few Pagan-ish folk that I've met hold a very literalist creationism view... heh...

Anyway. Sorry. Back to the topic, yes.


Evolution IS my creationism :smileroll though there isn't an Irish creation story, there does seem to be a vague sense that people came from the sea (most of the otherworld realms of the dead are in the sea of on islands in the sea, so everything comes full circle) which is absolutly true when you think of it - all life did start from the sea.

One of the my favorite things about CR. It all makes so much sense to me.

Sorry for the hijacking :p

[nightstream]

Evolution IS my creationism :smileroll though there isn't an Irish creation story, there does seem to be a vague sense that people came from the sea (most of the otherworld realms of the dead are in the sea of on islands in the sea, so everything comes full circle) which is absolutly true when you think of it - all life did start from the sea.

One of the my favorite things about CR. It all makes so much sense to me.

Sorry for the hijacking :p

*big grins* I love the fact that I find so much of my spiritual inspiration and ways of understanding my gods in science :)

And thanks for passing on the creation-ish bits - that's something I didn't know :)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Ben G., I'm not aware of any myths in Irish or Scottish myth that I would compare to the Descent of the Goddess. I'm not particularly familiar with the Descent of the Goddess, but rom what little I do know of it, there is nothing I've come across that resembles that particular myth. The only story I can think of that relates to seasonal changes is from Scotland. In that story Brighde/Bride is kept captive by the Cailleach so that she can keep it forever winter. When Brighde is finally freed by Angus Mac Og spring comes to the land. It doesn't sound like what you're looking for.

Nightstream, like John Mischeif said there is no actual creation myth, so evolution doesn't really conflict with CR. The closest they come to any sort of creation myth is the story in which the Cailleach creates some mountains in the Northern part of Ireland by dropping boulders from her apron as is flying over the land. However, this is not a creation of the world merely the creation of some land features.

I don't see any conflict between creationism and evolutionism. Again, the vague idea we get of the people coming from the sea fits in quite nicely with evolution.

[-Ember]

I wonder... some of the stories could be interpreted as a mirror image, though. Some of the ones interpreted as "sovriegnity" stories for example... where the king must lure out or earn the fay/demi-goddess bride for the land to prosper again.

[ancestral_lee]

the third branch of the mabinogi has a descent of the goddess type them where Rhiannon and pryderi are trapped in the underworld, the land goes barren etc and Manawyddan ap Llyr frees them. a similar though not totally related type theme occurs when Pryderi is kidnapped as a child and rhiannon is punished.

lee