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~AradianMoon~
April 14th, 2005, 01:28 PM
I myself am not transgendered, but i dont understand how a transgendered male cannot take part in a dianic coven because they dont know the true feeling of being a woman. I personally highly disagree, in fact i think they know what its like better then we as women do.
Can you imagine being yourself, a woman who ebraces her sex and loves being feminin, but trappped and gaged in a males body where you simply do not belong! :wah:
Its not like its a man who would rather be a woman, part of their brain is a match to a females, they are truly born a woman in a mans body.
Personally Im looking into the dianic tradition for myself, :smileroll i love my feminity, i fell MUCH closer to the goddess ect... but i just dont understand the transgendered regulation.... :sniffsnif

Any one want to comment.

Mithrea
April 14th, 2005, 02:05 PM
Ummmmm, where are you getting this "regulation" from? I'm Dianic and there is no such thing. In fact, there is such a thing as Mixed Gender Dianicism, that let men who are men in as well. If you have encountered this somewhere, it's specific to a particular coven or group and they have every right to let in whomever they choose.

That being said, I will have to disagree that a transgendered man knows what it's like to be a woman more than a woman does. The problem is the way that society treats women. Someone who has lived part of their life as a man and part as a woman might have a heightened awareness of the difference in the way society treats them, but it doesn't mean they know better what it's like to be a woman than I do.

StarSpiral
April 15th, 2005, 04:27 PM
I am not Dianic myself but that regulation must be specific to a certain coven or Tradition as I haven't seen it before. Issues and discussions around trans-gender and transsexual people are pretty intense right now in the women's movement. Take for example the Michigan Women's Festival's "women born women" only policy. Their rationality is that it is a place where women go to not be around men and with all the nudity (shared showers and generally on the festival site) seeing a penis would make women uncomfortable. Trans groups are holding a boycott of the festival and all artists who perform there as well as a Camp Trans down the road the same weekend to try and education people about trans issues and to pressure the festival to change its policy.
A sexual assault center in British Columbia turned away a trans woman as a volunteer (they only allow women volunteers) because she wouldn't have the experience of living in the world as a woman. The court decided that that was unacceptable and that trans people must be accepted fully as their new sex. It is hard for an organization to decide where to draw the line in issues of acceptance and safe-safe.

As for your situation, however, if you are uncomfortable with this group's restrictions you can either not join or try to change it. There are Dianic groups which welcome trans people and sometimes men as well.

~AradianMoon~
April 15th, 2005, 05:17 PM
That is very interesting. I bought a book on paths by patricia telesco and she had made this very specific. Im happy to know this isnt the case, i was really in disagreement with it.
I knew some dianic groups let in men, but the book made it sound few and far bettween.

Now i see more re-search is needed, thanks alot for your oppinions.

Mithrea
April 15th, 2005, 09:36 PM
As for your situation, however, if you are uncomfortable with this group's restrictions you can either not join or try to change it. There are Dianic groups which welcome trans people and sometimes men as well.

As someone from a group that has had numerous people try to change it to fit their needs, I say better to find a group that suits your needs. Changing a group to suit you only makes it not the group you wanted to be a part of in the first place. It will impossible to ever be accepted fully into the group and why would you want that for yourself? I'm speaking hypothetically here, since you have already said this isn't why you asked. :)

Raven Reed
April 16th, 2005, 01:53 AM
There is a group in the Southern California area that I was interested in going to until I found out about their "Womyn born womyn" policy. As the daughter of a transgendered person I am particularly sensitive to the problem such things pose to men who either in the path of becoming women or who have done so.

Ivy Artemisia
April 16th, 2005, 03:09 AM
I'm in a coven of women-born women, and just want to chirp in on this sensitive issue.

I think it would be awful to feel stuck in the body of the opposite sex. I'm not sure that the whole tradition of Dianics don't 'accept' transgendered people. I've heard of a Dianic coven in San Diego who accepted men into their group.

Anyway. Back to the women born women issue. In our group, at least... its not just what gender you are- or what private part you have. I'm thoroughly sensitive to the plight of the transgendered- I've met many wise and wonderful transgendered people on my path.

But, keep in mind that a lot of WBW groups, its not just about private parts, and how one feels, though that is important... its also about how we are brought up. Women and men are brought up entirely different. Women tend to be victims of sexual abuse more than men. I can't speak for others' groups... but the group that I'm part of.... we are about comforting, healing, nurturing, loving in the arms of each other. In general women grow up, learning how to be emotional caretakers for the most part. Is it right? Heck no. But its how it is.

I'm NOT saying that men couldn't be nurturing, comforting... I know first hand they can. :) I just wanted to share another point... more food for thought. I'd be very interested to hear the opinions of other peeps in WBW type groups.

Blessings- I hope I didn't offend anyone... its really late and I'm sleepy...


I myself am not transgendered, but i dont understand how a transgendered male cannot take part in a dianic coven because they dont know the true feeling of being a woman. I personally highly disagree, in fact i think they know what its like better then we as women do.
Can you imagine being yourself, a woman who ebraces her sex and loves being feminin, but trappped and gaged in a males body where you simply do not belong! :wah:
Its not like its a man who would rather be a woman, part of their brain is a match to a females, they are truly born a woman in a mans body.
Personally Im looking into the dianic tradition for myself, :smileroll i love my feminity, i fell MUCH closer to the goddess ect... but i just dont understand the transgendered regulation.... :sniffsnif

Any one want to comment.

BenSt
April 16th, 2005, 08:25 PM
When it coems to Transgendered people...I think in many ways they are an odd group out. The Gay and Lesbian community accepts them as Brethren, but there is also that element of being outsiders...being gay myself I can only say that I do understand the difficulty of a 'minority' group's rights and eqaulity. I have heard of some Dianic groups barring men, simply becasue they are men. Now, im trying to move through typing this without screwing up and inadvertantly offending soemone....so here goes...I think, as a tradition imbued greatly with Feminist philosophies, it would make sense that *some* groups might bar men from going too far into a radical idealogy of Feminism...on the other hand a teacher of mine from a few years ago, male, was raised into a Dianic coven when he was younger (I think it was around 8...)...by his aunt. He turned out to be bisexual.

I think when it comes to groups who do go far right, and deny men....trasngendered or otherwise, perhaps they are not so looking at the spirit beneath the flesh, but just looking at what is outside. Of course, I'm quite biased when it comes to female/male roles in a Coven...not believing in them at all. Dianic Wicca expesses the power of the Goddess, and females and if looking at the legends of Diana, men who stumble in and anger her are destroyed. She represents the powerful forms of the Goddess, and very close to my Mother Kali...and her dominace over masculinity. I am biased as I see physical gender as being nothing but physical difference, the male/female plurality is important but when you strip those off...what is left? We see the Goddess and God in defined stereotype...the God is the Hunter, the Goddess is the mother. Those are very powerful and important things, but beneath all of that men and women are the same essance, the same energy...with little difference. I liked what has already been said in this thread,


... its also about how we are brought up. Women and men are brought up entirely different. Women tend to be victims of sexual abuse more than men. I can't speak for others' groups... but the group that I'm part of.... we are about comforting, healing, nurturing, loving in the arms of each other. In general women grow up, learning how to be emotional caretakers for the most part. Is it right? Heck no. But its how it is.

That being said, you make a good point. Half of what we consider to be defined roles...what it means to be a man, and what is emans to be a woman, are taught to us during childhood. What is considered 'normal' is conveyed by seemingly every one in our lives...which shape who we become and what we see as abnormal. This ties directly into gay and lsbian issues also (We're ALL in this together minority groups!). We are taught that if you are a girl, but you are more of a tomboy, you are soemhow abnormal. If you are a boy, and you like to play with dolls...you are considered abnormal. Ofocurse the problem with this is the conflict between what is considered normal for a certain sedx, and what is. Now, ofocurse with little boys or girls who seem to follow another sex's defined roles are either called dykes or faggets...which in amny cases lead to a hard time in defining their sexuality...or coming to terms with sexuality. Now, by simply saying 'this is the way it is"...it is not really helping the alleviate the problem. And im sure that it is the same withgender stereotypes to begin with...a strong aggressive woman is ignoared becasue they are suppose to be 'timid, passive, and caring'. Quite simply put, you will be denied rights if you are a cunning *itch (rhymes with witch ;)). Changing a society's bias requires the elimination of 'society's norms' so that a child, boy or girl, can grow up to be who they are without the shaping of what they should be.

On the other hand, in the case of Transgendered people, joining a spiritual faith that both accepts them and celebrates their inner gender can be liberating and great...Dianic Wicca may be a great thing for those souls wishing to express their female parts openly in a way that doesnt constrict them. But that also goes on the assumption that there is an acceptance there...in amny ways, Transgendered people are caght in between. Gays and Lesbians can have a certain phobia towards them, and if not explained *some* women may not really understand and regard them as male...or female depending on the person. I admire those who wish to explore themselves...on a show called the L Word on Showtime, they had a man (quuite hot if I may add) and he identified himself as a Lesbian woman. Some of the girls on the show didnt udnerstand how a man could be a lesbian woman...but he felt as thoughhe was female inside, but a straight female at that! How truly brilliant is that? And the writers went as far as to have this woman on the show not use her penis in sex...seeing it as being counter to her feeling of being a woman. Now, if this was representative of real people...imagine what great things we have and great energies we have around us...merely to be denied becasue they appear to be male or female alone.

Like I said, I tried to be careful...so if I offended then please dont jump down my throat lol. Good posts on this subject :D Namaste

Tobias

KaliHobbit
April 17th, 2005, 06:44 PM
[QUOTE=Mithrea]Ummmmm, where are you getting this "regulation" from? I'm Dianic and there is no such thing. In fact, there is such a thing as Mixed Gender Dianicism, that let men who are men in as well. QUOTE]

Z. Budapest's Dianic Tradition is Womyn born Womyn only. I was involved in that tradition for years and experienced that although most ZB Dianics are open and accepting of transgenders, many do not open their circle to them. It could be augured that since ZB coined the term "Dianic" other traditions such as The Mcfarland (mixed gender) and those that are not womyn born womyn, don't actually qualify as Dianic. Obviously that's a major point of contention, you just have to figure out what works best for you!

Mithrea
April 17th, 2005, 08:33 PM
Z. Budapest's Dianic Tradition is Womyn born Womyn only. I was involved in that tradition for years and experienced that although most ZB Dianics are open and accepting of transgenders, many do not open their circle to them. It could be augured that since ZB coined the term "Dianic" other traditions such as The Mcfarland (mixed gender) and those that are not womyn born womyn, don't actually qualify as Dianic. Obviously that's a major point of contention, you just have to figure out what works best for you!

Ah. I see. Well she may have coined the term (which I did not know, I don't think) but she didn't invent the concept :)

Moth
April 21st, 2005, 05:15 AM
That being said, I will have to disagree that a transgendered man knows what it's like to be a woman more than a woman does. The problem is the way that society treats women. Someone who has lived part of their life as a man and part as a woman might have a heightened awareness of the difference in the way society treats them, but it doesn't mean they know better what it's like to be a woman than I do.

Yeah because society treats transgendered people so much better than women.

Ron
April 23rd, 2005, 07:40 PM
Just in case anyone was wondering, the word for an adult female human is "woman". Eventhough the English language is already a bastarization of many others, "womyn" is not a word.

I thought that I would share this ancient wisdom with you. Perhaps you should spread it, too; it seems that it is quite revolutionary, sadly.

With Graceful thoughts.

BenSt
April 23rd, 2005, 11:30 PM
I hate to do this to you charles, but im sure I can say this in a much nicer way than soemone who doesnt know you...ok in Feminism and thus Dianic Wicca, they see that the English language as being specifically constructed to place any masculine words at a higher place than the feminine. That is why soem groups glorifying the absolute and powerful forms of the Goddess altered the name women to womyn, wimin, womin...in order to eliminate what they see as an unfair masculine monopoly on the english language...thats why you will see in soem posts women being written as wimin, womyn, womin...

Ron
April 23rd, 2005, 11:40 PM
I hate to do this to you charles, but im sure I can say this in a much nicer way than soemone who doesnt know you...ok in Feminism and thus Dianic Wicca, they see that the English language as being specifically constructed to place any masculine words at a higher place than the feminine. That is why soem groups glorifying the absolute and powerful forms of the Goddess altered the name women to womyn, wimin, womin...in order to eliminate what they see as an unfair masculine monopoly on the english language...thats why you will see in soem posts women being written as wimin, womyn, womin...
Yes, Toby... I know that -- and I don't give one proton. "Womyn" is not a word.

:artist: Call me a hater, call me disrespectful... "Womyn" is still not a word.

Ron
April 23rd, 2005, 11:45 PM
Yes, Toby... I know that -- and I don't give one proton. "Womyn" is not a word.

:artist: Call me a hater, call me disrespectful... "Womyn" is still not a word.
I was demonstrating against the destruction of the English language -- strange, since I'm Welsh. :rolleyes:

[edit] I'm also in a bad mood. So I'm liable to rant about anything. Partly because, someone *ahem* you (Tobias) *ahem* has neglected to talk to me about how I spent all day trying to destory Pentecostal theology, for the sake of acting on my latest obession -- and in doing so, I ended up almost adopting Pentecostal theology, and feeling very uncalmed about my sexuality. THERE.

[edit II] So really my posts in this thread are part of a personal vendata to get your [Tobias] attention. Forgive me everyone.

EvieLee
May 16th, 2007, 10:17 PM
I know this is an old thread, but I came across it while searching for kitchen witch cookbooks (must have been the Patricia Telesco reference) and thought my question is relevent to the topic. Sorry if I'm hijacking. Just slap me if I am.

As a Dianic of the "women born women" style, my question is why, if there are women's mystery traditions and men's mystery traditions, can't there be transgendered mystery traditions? The transgendered person must have a very unique experience of life which obviously doesn't fit quite in either camp, so why force it?

hikarilove
May 23rd, 2007, 06:18 AM
As a Dianic of the "women born women" style, my question is why, if there are women's mystery traditions and men's mystery traditions, can't there be transgendered mystery traditions? The transgendered person must have a very unique experience of life which obviously doesn't fit quite in either camp, so why force it?

You have an excellent point!

Okay, the time has come...

*puts on his drag queen hat*

As a drag queen, I interact with plenty of transgendered people on a regular basis and have quite a few transgendered friends. I think gender is stupid and love that these people break down the "A or B" system.

Yes, men and women are raised differently. However, it is not the fault of the transgendered woman that she was not raised as a girl - so she should not be punished for it. Society DOES treat women differently, but until people start treating transgendered women as women, they will never have the experience that so many feminists claim to be "crucial".

Also, the experience of the American woman (I'm only speaking for American culture because it's my own) is a diverse thing and in no way homogenous. Do you think Hillary Clinton and a welfare mother had the same experiences growing up? No. We often forget that race, economics, religion, and language play a HUGE role in our experiences growing up. Some girls are told they can be whatever they want, learn to hold doors for themselves, and are in no way oppressed by men. Other women feel like the less-than sex because their corner of society has told them such. Expecting transgendered women to know which experience is most "valid" and then undergo it is unfair and irrational.

I have a fundamental problem with feminism that I will not get into on this thread, but I feel that the best way modern feminism can step away from its history of being the hobby of middle-class, white women with too much time on their hands is to open up their doors and learn from others. Feminism doesn't have the answer - no one does. We ALL do. In order to figure out this world, we have to cooperate. That, sometimes, means including people who do not fit within your definition of a label.

And, yes, transgendered people have wonderfully (or sometimes horrifically) unique experiences. Do you know how to apply beard cover? Do you worry about passing? Do you know what passing is? What are the risks of sexual assignment surgery? Simple, yet terribly important, issues like these are things that many of us will never encounter and, thus, transgendered people SHOULD make their own traditions, history, literature, and legacy. They should also be included in those which have already been made.

Just to end on a fun note (for anyone who has read a lot of Judith Butler)...

What IS a woman, anyway?

Ivy Artemisia
May 23rd, 2007, 04:33 PM
This is just my opinion. I am not Dianic, so I don't speak for those who are, I just speak for myself, trying to explain whats up with the women-born-women thing, in comparison to my group- a WBW group.


Yes, men and women are raised differently. However, it is not the fault of the transgendered woman that she was not raised as a girl - so she should not be punished for it. Society DOES treat women differently, but until people start treating transgendered women as women, they will never have the experience that so many feminists claim to be "crucial".

No one is laying fault or placing blame on the transgendered. However, you can't expect all women's groups to change their goals/missions or risk losing the cohesive bond that has already been created. Its not about punishment or exclusivity, its about finding a group that fits your needs, and fitting the needs of a group. If there isn't one, start one. I don't complain about certain groups not letting me in. Not every group is right for me, whether its based on gender/views/time commitment/skyclad policy, etc.


We often forget that race, economics, religion, and language play a HUGE role in our experiences growing up. Some girls are told they can be whatever they want, learn to hold doors for themselves, and are in no way oppressed by men. Other women feel like the less-than sex because their corner of society has told them such. Expecting transgendered women to know which experience is most "valid" and then undergo it is unfair and irrational.

This is true. In my group, we have seen women come from many different races/economics/religion/languages. You are exactly right, our women came from (and still are in) different economic, etc brackets. And we bond as sisters to honor the gods, love one another, and become empowered. Because who we are transcends where we come from. So, maybe our backgrounds aren't identical, but I can assure you there are common threads that have been woven through our lives.

Of course we can't expect transgendered women to know which experiences are most valid and then go through them. Additionally, many of these experiences come about in the early ages of life. If society wasn't so messed up, and transgendered women got to grow up as girls, then my point would be moot.


Feminism doesn't have the answer - no one does. We ALL do. In order to figure out this world, we have to cooperate. That, sometimes, means including people who do not fit within your definition of a label.

I agree with this. But you also have to understand, that I'm not talking about a club. I'm talking about a coven or close spiritual group. For example, my group is not about excluding men. Its about including women-born-women, so we can feel comfortable talking about our experiences growing up, and our experience that we face as women today. It's not about excluding people, or judging people at all. My group was created with several reasons and conditions in mind. At our open events EVERYONE is welcome.

Again, this is just my opinon.

Fairy_Princess
May 23rd, 2007, 06:26 PM
What about FTM Transexuals? Would they be welcomed into a Dianic group, since they were born with a vagina. Even though, now, they identify as a man....

hikarilove
May 24th, 2007, 12:31 AM
I don't feel like going point-by-point, Ivy, but I think you have the same idea as me... we're just talking about slightly different things. I think there should be groups for women-born-women, but it shouldn't be the norm. There are certain needs that such a group can handle that other groups could not. Every coven has its purpose. :)

Snapdragon
July 17th, 2007, 01:44 PM
Has anyone here read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Whipping-Girl-Transsexual-Scapegoating-Femininity/dp/1580051545/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0642503-8963023?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184694386&sr=1-1

If so, what did/do you think of it?

My reading of feminist texts over time has brought out the distinction between sex and gender. A person obviously is of a specific, physiological sex, but that may be widely at variance with their gender. Immediately, we are confronted by a question: what constitutes "the feminine gender" and what the "masculine" counterpart? Do we believe--as some do--that it is entirely socially constructed, do we believe--as some most fervently do--that it is somehow "inherent" and having nothing to do with conditioning...or is it perhaps a spiritual condition? Real questions.

I like this conversation very much; the spirit in it is good, like friends talking things over. Nice.

Philosophia
July 17th, 2007, 07:30 PM
I have a fundamental problem with feminism that I will not get into on this thread, but I feel that the best way modern feminism can step away from its history of being the hobby of middle-class, white women with too much time on their hands is to open up their doors and learn from others. Feminism doesn't have the answer - no one does. We ALL do. In order to figure out this world, we have to cooperate. That, sometimes, means including people who do not fit within your definition of a label.

That is the problem with all groups, not just feminism. We all tend to coagulate with our own philosophical groups and generally ignore everybody else. Feminism was much more than just a simple hobby of middle class white women, and we do learn a lot from others.

Snapdragon
July 20th, 2007, 02:45 PM
I just got my library card here in Portland, and put a hold on the book I mentioned earlier in this thread: Whipping Girl, by Julia Serano. There were 7 holds ahead of me for the 4 available copies, so it will be awhile before I can get it, and then read it. When I've read it, I'll post a book review in this forum, probably in the Quotations thread. It looks like a really intriguing and potentially useful read.

On the matter of feminism as a hobby: I think there's a lot of definition needed here, and maybe we should have a Feminism thread, if there isn't one already.

Snapdragon
October 8th, 2007, 01:25 PM
I have finished reading Whipping Girl, which I found to be well worth my time. I will review it in the Books section of the site, since that seems like the appropriate place.