Lesson 7: Havamal & Heathen Ethics

[Mjollnir]

I am going to post the Hollander translation of Havamal, along with the Nine Noble Virtues and the Praiseworthy Virtues of the North for discussion. I know we are still going over lesson 6 but I figured I would get a jump on Lesson 7.

[Mjollnir]

1) Have they eyes about thee when thou enterest

be wary alway, be watchful alway,

for one never knoweth when need will be

to meet hidden foe in the hall.



2) All hail to the givers! A guest hath come

say where shall he sit?

In haste is he to the hall who cometh

to find a place by the fire.



3) The warmth seeketh who hath wandered long

and is numb about the knees;

meat and dry clothes the man needeth

over the fells who hath fared.



4) A drink needeth to full dishes who cometh,

a towel, and the prayer to partake;

good bearing eke, to be well liked

and be bidden to banquet again.



5) Of his wit hath need who widely fareth--

a dull wit will do at home;

a laughingstock he who lacketh words

amongst smart wits when he sits.



6) To be bright of brain let no man boast,

but take good heed of his tongue;

the sage and silent come seldom to grief

as they fare amongst folk in the hall.

{More faithful friend findest thou never

than shrewd head on thy shoulders.}



7) The wary guest to wassail who comes

listens that he may learn,

opens his ears, casts his eyes about;

thus wards him the wise man 'gainst harm.



8) Happy is he who hath won him

the love and liking of all;

for hard it is one's help to seek

from the mind of another man.



9) Happy is he who hath won him

both winning ways and wisdom;

for ill it is oft who asketh help

from the wit and words of another.



10) Better burden bearest thou nowise

than shrewd head on they shoulders;

in good stead will it stand amongst stranger folk,

and shield when unsheltered thou art.



11) Better burden bearest thou nowise

than shrewd head on they shoulders;

but with worser food farest thou never

than an overmuch of mead.



12) For good it is not, though good it is thought,

mead for the sond sof men;

the deeper he drinks the dimmer grows

the mind of many a man.



13) the heron of heedlessness hovers o'er the feast;

and stealeth the minds of men.



14) That bout is best from which back fetches

each man his mind full clear.



15) Let us all be sparing in words,

and bold in battle;

glad and wholesome the hero be

till comes his dying day.


16) The unwise man thinks that he ay will live

if from fighting he flees;

but the ails and aches of old age dog him

though spears have spared him.



17) The fool but gapes when to folks he comes,

he mumbles and mopes;

soon is seen, when his swillhe had,

what the mind of the man is like.



18) Only he is aware who hath wandered much,

and far hath been afield;

what manner of man be he whom he meets,

if himself be not wanting in wit.



19) The cup spurn not, yet be sparing withal:

say what is needful or naught;

for ill breedingupbraids thee no man

if soon thou goest to sleep.



20) The greedy guest gainsays his head

and eats untill he is ill;

his belly oft maketh a butt of a man

on bench 'midst the sage when he sits.



21) The herd to know when from home they shall,

and gang from the grass to their stalls;

but the unwise man will not ever learn

how much his maw will hold.



22) The ill-minded man who meanly thinks,

fleers at both foul and fair;

he does not know, as know he ought,

that he is not free from flaws.



23) The unwise man waketh all night,

thinking of this and that-

tosses, sleepless, and is tired at morn:

nor lighter for that is load.



24) the unwise man weens that all

wo laugh with him, like him too;

nor sees their scorn, though they sneer at him,

on bench 'midst the sag when he sits.



25) The unwise man weens that all

that laugh with him like him too;

but then he finds, when to the Thing he comes,

few spokesman to speed his cause.



26) The unwise man wens heknows all,

if from harm he is far at home;

but knows not ever what answer to make

when others ask him aught.



27) The unwise man amongst others who comes,

let him be sparing of speech;

for no one knows that naught is in him,

but he opens his mouth too much.



28) Clever is he who is keen to ask,

and eke to answer , all men;

'tis hard tohide from the hearing of men

what is on everyone' slips.



29) Much at random oft rambles he

whose tongue does ever tattle;

a talker's tongue, unless tamed it be,

will often work him woe.



30) No mock make though of any man,

though thou comest amongsth kinsmen;

he knowing weens him whom no one has asked,

and dry-shod hies him home.


31) A wise man he who hies him betimes

from the man who likes to mock;

for at table who teases can never tell

what foe he might have to fight.



32) Many a man means no ill,

yet teases the other at table;

strife will ever start amongsth men

when guest clashes with guest.



33) An early meal ay a man should get him,

lest famished he come to the feast;

he sits and stuffs as thought starved he were,

and naught he says to his neighbours.



34) To false friend ay a far way 'tis,

though his roof be reared by the road;

to stanch friend ay a straight way leads,

though far he have fared from thee.



35) Get thee gone betimes; a guest should not

stay too long in one stead;

life grows loath if too long one sits

on bench, though in he was bidden.



36) One's home is best, though hut it be:

there a man is master and lord;

Though but two goats thine and a thatched roof,

'tis far better than beg.



37) One's home is best thought a hut it be:

there a man is master and lord;

his heart doth bleed who has to beg

the meat for his every meal.



38) From his weapons away no one should ever

stir one step on the field;

for no one knows when need might have

on a sudden a man of his sword.



39) So freehanded never found i a man

but would gladly take what is given;

not of hsi goods so ungrudging ever,

to forego what is given him.



40) Of his worldly goods which he gotten hath

let a man not stint overmuch;

oft is lavished on foe what for friend was saved,

for matters go often amiss.



41) With weapons and weds should friends be won,

as one can see in themselves;

those who give to each other will ay be friends,

once they meet half way.



42) With his friend a man should be friends ever,

and pay back gift for gift;

laughter afor laughter he learn to give,

and eke lesing for lies.



43) With his friend a man should be friends ever,

and with him the friend of his friend;

but foeman's friend befriend thou never,

(and keep thee aloof from his kin)



44) If friend thou hast whom faithful thou deemest,

and wishest to win him for thee;

ope thy heart to him nor withhold thy gifts,

and fare to find him often.



45) If another there be whom ill thou trusteth,

yet would'st get from him gain;

speak fair to him though false thou meanest,

and pay him lesing for lies.


46) And eke this heed: if ill thou trust one,

and hollow-hearted his speeck;

thou shalt laugh with him and lure him on,

and let him have tit for tat.



47) Young was i once and went along,

and wandering lost my way;

when a friend i found i felt me rich:

man is cheered by man.



48) He who giveth gladly a goodly life leadeth,

and seldom hath he sorrow;

but the churlish wight is chary of all,

and grudgingly parts with his gifts.



49) In the fields as i fared, (for fun) I hung

my weeds on two wooden men;

they werre reckoned folks when the rags they wore:

naked, a man is naught.



50) The fir tree dies in the field that stands:

shields it nor bark nor bast;

thus eke the man who by all is shunned

why should he linger in life?



51) Than fire hotter for five days burneth

love between friends that are false;

it dieth down when dawneth the sixth,

then all the sweetness turns sour.



52) Not great thigns needs give to a man:

bringeth thanks oft a little thing.

with half a loaf and a half-drained cup

i won me oft worthy friend.



53) A little lake hath but little sand:

but small the mind of man;

not all men are equally wise,

each wight wanteth somewhat.



54) Middling wise every man should be:

beware of being too wise;

happiest in life most likely he

who knows not more than is needful.



55) Middling wise every man should be:

beware of being too wise;

for wise man's heart is happy seldom,

if too great the wisdom he won.



56) Middling wise every man should be:

beware of being too wise;

his fate let no one beforehand know

who would keep his heart from care.



57) Kindles brand from brand, and burns till all burnt it is;

thus fire is kindled from fire;

by the words of his mouth a man is known,

but frm his dullness a dullard.



58) Betimes must rise who would take another's

life and win his wealth;

lying down wolf never got the lamb,

nor sleeping wight slew his foe.



59) Betimes must rise who few reapers has,

and see to the work himself;

much will miss in the morn who sleeps;

for the brisk the race is half run.



60) What lathes and logs will last him out,

a man may reckon aright;

and of wood to warm him how much he may want

for many a winter month.


61) Well-groomed and washed wend thee to the Thing,

though thy clothes be not the best;

of thy shoes and breeks be not ashamed,

and still less of they steed.



62) With lowered head sweeps, to the sea when he comes,

the eagle o'er the billowing brine;

thus eke the man wmongsth a throng

who finds him but few to befriend him.



63) Both ask and answer let everyone

who wishes to be deemed wise;

let one know it, nor none other;

if three know, thousands will.



64) A wise man will not overweening be,

and stake too much on his strength;

when the mighty are met to match their strength,

'twill be found that first is no one.



65) (Watchful and wary everyone should be,

nor put too much trust in a friend:)

the words by one unwarily spoken,

have undone oft a doughty man.



66) Too late by far to some feasts i came;

to others, all too soon;

the beer was drunk, or yet unbrewed;

never hits it the hapless one aright.



67) Here or there would they have me in,

if no meat at the meal i craved;

or hung two hams in my good friend's home,

after eating one of his own.



68) A bonny fire is a blessing to man,

and eke the sight of the sun;

his hearty health, if he holds it well,

and to live one's life without shame.



69) All undone is no one though at death's door he lie:

some with good sons are blessed,

and some with kinsmen, or with coffers full,

and some with deds well-done.



70) Better alive (than lifeless be):

too quick fall ay the cattle;

the hearth fire3 burned for the happy heir--

outdoors a dead man lay.



71) May the halt ride a horse, and the handless be herdsman,

the deaf man may doughtily fight;

a blind man is better than a burned one, ay:

of what good is a good man dead?



72) To have a son is good, late-got though he be

and borne when buried his father;

stones see'st thou seldom set by the roadside

but by kith raised over kin.



73) [Two will down one; of tongue is head's bane;

a fist i fear 'neath every furry coat.



74) Of the night is fain whose knapsack is full;

close are ship's quarters.

Fickle are the nights in fall;

there's both fair and foul in five days' time--still more so within a month]



75) He who knoweth nothing knoweth not, either,

how wealth may warp a man's wit;

one hath wealth when wanteth another,

though he bear no blame himself.


76) Cattle die, and kinsmen die,

thyself eke soon wilt die;

but fair fame will fade never:

I ween, for him who wins it.



77) Cattle die and kinsmen die,

thyself eke soon wilt die;

one thing, I wot, will wither never:

the doom over each one dead.



78) A full stocked farm had some farmer's sons.

Now they stoop at the beggar's staff;

in a twinkling fleeth trothless wealth,

it is the ficklest of friends.



79) The unwise man, once he calls his own

wealth or the love of a woman--

his overweening waxes but his wit never--

he haughtily hardens his heart.



80) 'Tis readily found when the runes thou ask,

made by mighty Gods, known to holy hosts,

and dyed deep red by Othin:

that 'tis wise to waste no words.



81) At eve praise the day,

when burned down, a torch,

a wife when bedded, a weapon when tried,

ice when over it, ale when 'tis drunk.



82) Fell wood in the wind, in fair weather row out to sea,

dally with girls in the dark--the days' eyes are many--

choose a shield for shelter, a ship for speed,

a sword for keenness, a girl for kissing.



83) By the fire drink ale, skate on the ice,

buy a bony steed, a rusty blade,

feed your horse at home,

and your hound in his hutch.



84) A wench's words let no wise man trust,

nor trust the troth of a woman;

for on whirling wheel their hearts are shaped,

and fickle and fitful their mings.



85) A brittle bow, a burning fire,

a gaping wolf, a grunting sow,

a croaking crow, a kettle boiling,

a rising sea, a rootless tree



86) A flying dart, a foaming billow,

ice one night old, a coiled-up adder,

a woman's bed-talk, a broken blade,

the play of cubs, a king's scion,



87) A sickly calf, a self-willed thrall,

the smooth words foa witch, warriors fresh-slain,



88) Thy brother's banesman, though it be on the road,

a half-burned house, a speedy hose--

worthless the steed if one foot he breaks--

so trusting be no one to trust in these!



89) Early-sown acres, let none ever trust,

nor trust his son too soon:

undoes weather the one, unwisdom the other:

risk not thy riches on these.



90) The false love of a woman, 'tis like to one

riding on ice with horse unroughshod--

a brisk two-year-old, unbroken withal--

or in raging wind drifting rudderless,

like the lame outrinning the reindeer on bare rock.


91) Heed my words now, for i know them both:

mainsworn are men to women;

we speak most fair when most foul our thoughts,

for that wiles the wariest wits.



92) Fairly shall speak, nor spare his gifts,

who will win a woman's love,

shall praise the looks of htelovely maid:

he who flatters shall win the fiar.



93) At the loves of a man to laugh is not meet

for anyone ever;

the wise oft fall, when fools yield not,

to the lure of a lovely maid.



94) 'Tis not meet for men to mock at what

befalls full many;

a fair face oft makes fools of the wise

by the mighty lure of love.



95) One's self only knows what is near one's heart,

each reads but himself aright;

no sickness seems to sound mind worse

than to have lost all liking for life.



96) That saw I well when i sat in the reeds,

awaiting the maid I wooed;

more than body and soul was the sweet maid to me,

yet I worked not my will with her.



97) Billing's daughter on her bed I found

sleeping, the sun-bright maid;

a king's crown I craved not to wear,

if she let me have her love.



98) "At eventide shalt, Othin, come

if thou wilt win me to wife:

unmeet it were if more than we two

know of this naughty thing"



99) Back I went; to win her love

I let myself be misled;

for I did think, enthralled by love,

to work my will with her.



100) When next I came at nighttime, then,

all the warriors found I awake,

with brands high borne and burning lights;

such the luckless end of my love tryst!



101) Near morn when I once more did come,

the folks were sound asleep;

but a bitch found I the fair one had

bound fast on her bed!



102) Many a good maid, if you mark it well,

is fickle, though fair her word;

that I quickly found when the cunning maid

I lured to lecherous love;

every taunt and gibe she tried on me,

and naught i had of her.



103) Glad in his home, to his guest cheerful,

yet shrewd should one be:

wise and weighty be the word of his mouth,

if wise he would be thought.

A ninny is he who naught can say,

for such is the way of the witless.

104) The old etin I sought--now I am back;

in good stead stood my my speech;

for with many words my wish i wrought

in the hall of Suttungs' sons.



105) With an auger I there ate my way,

through the rocks I made me room!

over and under were teh etins' paths;

thus dared I life and limb.



106) Gunnloth gave me, her gold stool upon,

a draught of the dear-bought mead;

an ill reward I her after left

for her faithful friendship, for her heavy heart.



107) (Of the well-bought matter) I made good use:

to the wise now little is lacking;

for Öthrærir now up is brought,

and won for the lord-of-all-wights.



108) Unharmed again had I hardly come

out of the etins' hall,

if Gunnloth helped not, the good maiden,

in whose loving arms I lay.



109) the day after, the etins fared

into Har's high hall,

to ask after Bolverk: whether the Æsir among,

or whether by Suttung slain.



110) An oath on the ring did Othin swear;

how put trust in his troth?

Suttung he swindled and snatched his drink,

and Gunnloth he beguiled.


111) 'Tis time to chant on the sage's chair:

at the well of Urth

I saw but said naught, I saw and thought,

(listened to Har's lore);

Of runes I heard men speak unraveling them,

at the hall of Har

in the hall of Har

and so I heard them say:



112) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

at night rise not but to be ready for foe,

or to look for a spot to relieve thee.



113) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

in a witch's arms beware of sleeping

linking thy limbs with hers



114) She will cast her spell that thou carest not to go

to meetings where men are gathered;

unmindful of meat, and mirthless, thou goest,

and seekest they bed in sorrow.



115) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

beware lest the wedded wife of a man

thou lure to love with thee.



116) hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

on fell or firth if to fare thee list,

furnish thee well with food.



117) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

withhold the hardships which happen to thee

from the knowledge of knaves;

for, know thou, from knaves thou wilt never have

reward for thy good wishes.



118) A man i saw sorely bestead,

through a wicked woman's words;

her baleful tongue did work his bane,

though good and unguilty he was.



119) Hear thout, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

If faithful friend thou hast found for thee,

then fare thou to find him full oft;

overgrown is soon with tall grass and bush

the trail which is trod by no one.



120) hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

a good man seek thou to gain as thy friend,

and learn to make thyself loved.



121) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

the first be not with a friend to break

who was faithful found to thee;

for sorrow eateth the soul of him

who may not unburden his mind.



122) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

beware thou of bandying words

with an unwise oaf,



123) For from evil man not ever wilt thou

get reward for good;

a good man, though, will gain for thee

the love and liking of many.



124) Then love is mingled when a man can say

toa bosom friend what burdens him;

few things are worse than fickle mind:

no friend who but speaks thee fair.



125) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

not three words shalt with a worse man bandy;

oft the better man forbears

when the worse man wounds thee.



126) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

neither shoemaker be nor shaftmaker, either,

but it be for thyself:

let the shoe be ill shaped or the shaft not true,

and they will wish thee woe.



127) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

if wrong was done thee let thy wrong be known,

and fall on they foes straightaway.



128) hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

in ill deeds not ever share,

but be thou glad to do good.



129) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

look not ever up, when fighting--

for mad with fear men then oft grow--

lest that warlocks bewitch thee.



130) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

if thee list to gain a good woman's love

and all the bliss there be,

thy troth shalt pledge, and truly keep:

no one tires of the good he gets.



131) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

be wary of thee, but not wary o'ver much;

be most wary of ale and of other man's wife,

and eke, thirdly, lest thieves outwit thee.



132) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

never laugh at or mock, or make game of,

guest or wayfaring with.



133) Those who sit within hall oft hardly know

of what kin be they who come;

no man so flawless but some fault he has,

[both foul and fair are found among men,

blended within their breasts]



134) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

at hoary sage sneer thou never:

there is sense oft in old men's saws;

oft wisdom cometh out of withered bag

that hangs 'mongst the skins drying

under roof, with the rennet.



135) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

beshrew not the stranger, nor show him the door,

but rather do good to the wretched.



136) That bar must be strong which unbars the door

to each and every one:

show the beggar your back lest, bearing thee grudge,

he wish you all manner of mischief.



137) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

when ale thou drinkest invoke earth-strength;

[for earth is good 'gainst ale, 'gainst ague, fire,

'gainst straining, acorns, 'gainst witchery, steel,

'gainst house-strife, the elder, 'gainst hate, the moon,

'gainst rabies, alum,. 'gainst ill luck, runes--]

for earth absorbs thehumours all.


138) I wot that I hung on the wind-tossed tree

all of nights nine,

wounded by spear, bespoken to Othin,

bespoken myself to myself,

[upon that tree of which none telleth

from what roots it doth rise]



139) Neither horn they upheld nor handed me bread;

I looked below me--aloud I cried--

caught up the runes, caught them up wailing,

thence to the ground fell again.



140) From the son of Bolthorn, Bestla's father,

I mastered mighty songs nine,

and a drink I had, of the dearest mead,

got from out of Óthrærir.



141) Then began I to grow and gain in insight,

to wax eke in wisdom:

One verse led on to another verse,

one poem led on to the other poem.



142) Runes wilt thou find, and rightly read,

of wondrous weight,

of mighty magic,

which that dyed the dread God,

which that made the holy hosts,

and were etched by Othin.



143) Othin among Æsir, for alfs, Dain,

Dvalin for the dwarfs,

Alsvith among etins, (but for earth-borne men)

wrought I some myself.



144) Know'st how to write, know'st how to read,

know'st how to stain, how to understand,

know'st how to ask, know'st how to offer,

know'st how to supplicate, know'st how to sacrifie?



145) 'Tis better unasked than offered overmuch;

for ay doth a gift look for gain;

'tis better unasked than offered overmuch:

thus did Othin write ere the earth began,

when up he rose in after time.



146) Those spells I know which the spouses of kings

wot not, nor earthly wight:

"Help" one is hight, with which holpen thou'lt be

in sorrow and care and sickness.



147) That other I know which all will need

who leeches list to be:

(on the bark scratch them of bole in the woods

whose boughs bend to the east).



148) That third I know, if my need be great

to fetter a foeman fell:

I can dull the swords of deadly foes,

that nor wiles nor weapons avail.



149) that fourth I know, if foemen have

fettered me hand and foot:

I chant a charm the chains to break,

so the fetters fly off my feet,

and off my hands the halter.



150) That fifth I know, if from foemans's hand

I see a spear sped into throng,

never so fast it flies but its flight I can stay,

once my eye lights on it.



151) that sixth I know, if me someone wounds

with runes on gnarled root written,

or rouses my wrath by reckless speech:

him blights shall blast, not me.



152) That seventh I know, if o'er sleepers' heads

I behold a hall on fire:

however bright the blaze I can beat it down--

that mighty spell I can speak.



153) That eighth I know which to all men is

needful, and good to know:

when hatred runs high, heroes among,

their strife i can settel full soon.



154) That ninth I know: if need there be

to guard a ship in a gale,

the wind I can calm, and the waves also,

and wholly soothe the sea.



155) That tenth I know, if night-hags sporting

I scan aloft in the sky:

I scare them with spells so they scatter abroad,

heedless of their hides,

heedless of their haunts.



156) That eleventh I know, if I am to lead

old friends to the fray:

under buckler I chant that briskly they fare

hale and whole to battle,

hale and whole from battle:

hale whereever they are.



157) That twelfth I know, if on tree I see

a hanged one hoisted on high:

thus I write and the runes I stain

that down he drops

and tells me his tale.



158) That thirteenth I know if a thane's son I shall

wet with holy water:

never will he fall, though the fray be hot,

nor sink down, wounded by sword.



159) That fourteenth I know, if to folk I shall

sing and say of the Gods:

Æsir and alfs know I altogether--

of unlearned few have that lore.



160) That know I fifteenth which Thjothrærir sang,

the dwarf, before Delling's door:

gave to Æsir strength, to alfs victory

by his song, and insight to Othin.



161) That sixteenth I know, if I seek me some maid,

to work my will with her:

the white-armed woman's heart I bewitch,

and toward me I turn her thoughts.



162) That seventeenth I know, (if the slender maid's love

I have, and hold her to me:

this I sing to her) that she hardly will

leave me for other man's love.



163) In this lore wilt thou, Loddfafnir, be

unversed forever and ay:

thy weal were it, if this wisdom thine--

'tis helpful, if heeded,

'tis needful, if known.



164) That eighteenth I know which to none I will tell,

neither maid nor man's wife--

'tis best warded I but one know it:

this speak I last of my spells--

but only to her in whose arms I lie,

or else to my sister also.



165) Now are Har's sayings spoken in Har's hall,

of help to the sons of men,

of harm to the sons of etins;

hail to whoever spoke them, hail to whoever knows them!

Gain they who grasp them,

happy they who heed them!

[Mjollnir]

1. Gifting is praiseworthy.
2. Generosity is praiseworthy.
3. Moderation is praiseworthy.
4. The maintaining of frith in all circumstances is praiseworthy.
5. Courage is praiseworthy.
6. The seeking of good over ill is praiseworthy.
7. Hospitality is praiseworthy.
8. Courtesy is praiseworthy.
9. Tolerance is praiseworthy.
10. The pursuit of wisdom and knowledge is praiseworthy.
11. The defense of freedom is praiseworthy.
12. Industriousness is praiseworthy.
13. Vigilance is praiseworthy.
14. The protection, nurturing and forbearing of kin is praiseworthy.
15. Showing respect for elders is praiseworthy.
16. Loyalty to friends and kin is praiseworthy.
17. Keeping an oath is praiseworthy.
18. Honoring the sanctity of marriage is praiseworthy.
19. Refraining from mockery is praiseworthy.
2o. Refraining from arrogance is praiseworthy.
21. Making kin, honor and justice more important than gold is praiseworthy.
22. Cleanliness is praiseworthy.
23. The maintaining of one's dignity in all situations is praiseworthy.
24. Good organization is praiseworthy.
25. Persistence is praiseworthy.
26. The rule of law is praiseworthy.
27. To try ones steel against an opponent fairly is praiseworthy.
28. Respect for the dead is praiseworthy.
29. For a man to never strike a woman is praiseworthy.
30. To not abuse one's power is praiseworthy.


Some further insight adn explanation
http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/sagamal.php

http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/trulog.php

[Mjollnir]

The Nine Noble Virtues:

Courage
Truth
Honor
Loyalty
Hospitality
Discipline
Industriousness
Self-reliance
Perseverance

[fallingwater]

So I gather the 9 noble virtues were gleaned from the old texts to provide an ethical framework for modern Heathens?

Is the Havamal located within the Poetic Edda?

And the gifting is taken from the Havamal?

What does Havamal mean?

[KellyP]

Is the Havamal located within the Poetic Edda? Yes. Hollander writes, "This, the longest of the Eddic poems, is largely didactic in nature. Here, more abundantly in any other monument, do we find that homely wisdom, that sternly realistic view of life, those not ignoble ethical conceptions, which are given such classic illustration in the Icelandic sagas." (Hlollander, L. trans. , The Poetic Edda, University of Texas Press, 2003. p 14)



What does Havamal mean?Hollander translates Havamal as "The Sayings of Har" where Har is one of the hundreds of aliases for Odin. In most readings, it is understood that the words of the Havamal are those of Odin instructing the reader on proper behavior.

[Rick]

So I gather the 9 noble virtues were gleaned from the old texts to provide an ethical framework for modern Heathens?

Actually, the Thirty Virtues (the third post in this thread) are taken pretty directly from the old texts. The Nine Noble Virtues are a modern condensation (um, Steve McNallen of the AFA?)... but they're pretty good, too. :bigredgri

[Mjollnir]

So I gather the 9 noble virtues were gleaned from the old texts to provide an ethical framework for modern Heathens?


There was a debate on the Northeast Asatru list regarding the NNV and their impact or lack thereof on the modern heathen. I take the view that every one of those nine virtues listed should be present in everyone regardless of religion, think about it.

[Mjollnir]

And the gifting is taken from the Havamal?



Well, since this is the only part of the original post unanswered I figured I would answer it. If you have read any of the Sagas gifting,and just plain 'ole generosity is prevalent throughout, for ties of friendship, hospitality, after weddings, feasts, Yule.

[fallingwater]

165) Now are Har's sayings spoken in Har's hall,

of help to the sons of men,

of harm to the sons of etins;

hail to whoever spoke them, hail to whoever knows them!

Gain they who grasp them,

happy they who heed them![/QUOTE]


I've read through these twice and while I understand the jist of it I'm wondering where a 'woman' fits into all of this.

And I being a woman am curious as to how I use this knowledge. This was written by a man for a man from a male view point.

What did the women pass on to each other? Are there any historical documents written for women?

Of course I know that long ago the world was a patriarchial society pretty much around the world and that all religions were based on that.

But what were the women like back then? What were their spiritual or religious leanings? Were there great women of magic and wisdom? I guess I could study more female Goddesses to get an understanding.

However, the 9 virtues and the 30 virtues are for everyone. My life is already changing by just reading them. So I'm not saying just because I'm a woman I can't relate or anything like that. I guess it bugged me when they kept talking about women as 'fickle' and pretty much as love objects and how to woo/win them?

[Rick]

Ya know, that sorta bugged me, too, first time I read it... but in the "good ol' days", marriage generally wasn't about love, it was a financial arrangement between two families. The groom had to demonstrate that he could support a family, the bride had to bring a large enough dowry to be able to independently support her family in the event that her man was crippled or killed, or if she decided to divorce him (yep, Northern women could divorce their men). So I kinda take all that stuff about women being fickle etc as an admonition to be 'sensible' rather than to be caught up in passion. And remember that the Eddas & Sagas were put down on paper in the Christian era, and while I don't that the body of the work changed, I do believe that the tone of the work might be slightly altered here & there...

[Mjollnir]

I've read through these twice and while I understand the jist of it I'm wondering where a 'woman' fits into all of this.

Woman had an essential role, it's all in the Saga's, when you read them you will see.



And I being a woman am curious as to how I use this knowledge. This was written by a man for a man from a male view point.

You use it as anyone else would



What did the women pass on to each other? Are there any historical documents written for women?

Do you feel there should have been?



Of course I know that long ago the world was a patriarchial society pretty much around the world and that all religions were based on that.

Except the Norse that is.........


But what were the women like back then? What were their spiritual or religious leanings? Were there great women of magic and wisdom? I guess I could study more female Goddesses to get an understanding.

Or you could read the Sagas



However, the 9 virtues and the 30 virtues are for everyone. My life is already changing by just reading them. So I'm not saying just because I'm a woman I can't relate or anything like that. I guess it bugged me when they kept talking about women as 'fickle' and pretty much as love objects and how to woo/win them?

Unless that is when they are prodding their sons as being weak for not going out and avenging their father.

[fallingwater]

Or you could read the Sagas

Where can I read the Sagas?

[Mjollnir]

Where can I read the Sagas?


Ummm, go to a bookstore and buy them? Or go to northvegr.org and see if they have the e-books?

[fallingwater]

I've just read The Nordic Gods and Heroes by Padraic Colum. It had many of the same stories as listed on the Northvegar site under Sagas. It's amazing how many 'fairy tales' come directly from these sagas. They are incredible and facinating to read. I have a lot of reading to do!

Wow...that is an incredible site for learning. Thanks for telling me about it.
I had no idea how deep the lake was...I've barely dipped my toes at the water's edge.

Why doesn't the whole world know of the Norse? Why wasn't I taught at school?

This is EXCITING !

[Mjollnir]

That book is basically mythology having nothing to do with the actual Saga's which were about people who lived back then.


Go here.....
http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/bibliography.php


And here is just a snippet to keep you busy..........

Egils Saga
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/egils_saga/index.php

Saga of the Volsungs
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/volsunga/index.php

Heitharvega Saga
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/heith/index.php

Kormaks Saga
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/kormak/index.php

Ketil Trout's Saga
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/oldheathen/011.php

[fallingwater]

:holycow:

[Mjollnir]

:holycow:


And when you finish those, I have more.............

[KellyP]

Ya know, that sorta bugged me, too, first time I read it... but in the "good ol' days", marriage generally wasn't about love, it was a financial arrangement between two families. The groom had to demonstrate that he could support a family, the bride had to bring a large enough dowry to be able to independently support her family in the event that her man was crippled or killed, or if she decided to divorce him (yep, Northern women could divorce their men).
There are a couple of excellent sources that relate the important roles women played in the Scandinavian and Icelandic cultures. I can personally recommend Jesse Byock's Viking Age Iceland. While it obviously addresses all aspects of culture some of the items indexed specifically regarding women include court cases, dispute settlement, economic roles and property. In his introductory material Byock notes that much of what he will present is not specific to men by writing "women are considered part of the social fabric. Rather than segregating discussion along gender lines, I see women as players in a social life that includes feud and calls for moderation, bloodshed, vengeance, honour, shame and restraint." (p. 3).

[Darkdale]

There are a couple of excellent sources that relate the important roles women played in the Scandinavian and Icelandic cultures. I can personally recommend Jesse Byock's Viking Age Iceland.

Jesse Byock is one of my favorite authors! Viking Age Iceland is also one of the best books on early Icelandic history too. I've recommended often, I'm glad to see others have read it.

[Mjollnir]

Anyone have any questions, comments so far?

[mothwench]

i'm still working through it, but here's two questions to start with:


13) the heron of heedlessness hovers o'er the feast;

and stealeth the minds of men.

is there any other references you can think of (other than havamal) that attributes herons to drunkenness? why herons?


also, i wonder about these stanzas. they seem to contradict eachother slightly? or am i wrong?


43) With his friend a man should be friends ever,

and with him the friend of his friend;

but foeman's friend befriend thou never,

(and keep thee aloof from his kin)


45) If another there be whom ill thou trusteth,

yet would'st get from him gain;

speak fair to him though false thou meanest,

and pay him lesing for lies.


46) And eke this heed: if ill thou trust one,

and hollow-hearted his speeck;

thou shalt laugh with him and lure him on,

and let him have tit for tat.

[Darkdale]

This is one of my favorite parts of the Havamal:


55) Middling wise every man should be:

beware of being too wise;

for wise man's heart is happy seldom,

if too great the wisdom he won.

Asatru is one of the few traditions that places a greater immediate emphasis on "know how" than on "wisdom". Being wise is wise enough. Too much understanding causes restlessness and cynicism; but "know how" - being able to accomplish things, that's a real blessing. It's been my experience that this is true.

Growing up, I spent most of my time playing sports, reading books, writing stories and playing with friends. My father worked all the time and no one ever taught me how to do anything. I learned to think creatively, I learned to study books a great deal. I've read all the philosophers, the great religious thinkers and political minds. I know the great inventors and the great artists. I'm familiar with all the social sciences, psychological theories, sociological theories. I have a deep understanding of people, why the do what they do, what they want, how they feel.

But I'm about to turn 26. I'm just now learning how to do simple things. Change the oil on my car, put together a grill. I can't build anything. I can't fix anything. I have very little "know how".

I would trade all the things I understand, for just half the things the average person knows how to do.

What I know how to do is worthless. I can write you a poem, answer a question, through a baseball 60mph into the strike zone... but anyway...I'm rambling.

The point is, that alot "know how" is more important than alot "wisdom". Be wise enough to know what is right and what is wrong. More wisdom than that is just a burden.

[Mjollnir]

i'm still working through it, but here's two questions to start with:



is there any other references you can think of (other than havamal) that attributes herons to drunkenness? why herons?


Good question mothy, according to the note attached to this stanza in the Hollander translation it is as follows: Apparently, the state of mind superinduced by the magic use of the heron's feathers. (See Scandanavian Notes and Studies, 1914, 259 ff). It has also been suggested that the allusion may be to the old-time scoop, usually in the shape of a long necked bird, which floated on the butt in which ale was served ( Arv, 1957, 21, ff.)



also, i wonder about these stanzas. they seem to contradict eachother slightly? or am i wrong?

Stanza 43:Basically he is saying your friend's friend is also you friend, but never befriend a friend of your enemy and watch out for his kin as well.

Stanza 45:Seems to me he is saying if you know he is no good get from him what you can and pay him back the same if he crosses you.

Stanza 46: If you dont trust someone, and you sense he is up to no good, dont let on, get close to him and repay what he does to you accordingly.

In the Sagas there are references to pretty much those 3 instances you gave, and all usually have less than ideal outcomes.

[mothwench]

Good question mothy, according to the note attached to this stanza in the Hollander translation it is as follows: Apparently, the state of mind superinduced by the magic use of the heron's feathers. (See Scandanavian Notes and Studies, 1914, 259 ff). It has also been suggested that the allusion may be to the old-time scoop, usually in the shape of a long necked bird, which floated on the butt in which ale was served ( Arv, 1957, 21, ff.)
thanks. hmmm... interesting. would you then say it is *not* a good idea to attribute herons to frigg? the reason i ask is, i've done so before, intuitively i think.


Stanza 43:Basically he is saying your friend's friend is also you friend, but never befriend a friend of your enemy and watch out for his kin as well.
well, yes indeed it says that in this translation. so maybe it's a moot discussion. i once printed out the havamal from northvegr, which is different:

A man should be loyal through life to friends,
to them and to friends of theirs,
but never shall a man make offer
of friendship to his foes
i marked that passage back then as something to find out about when i get the chance. do you think that its a wrong translation? because if hollander's is correct, that would resolve the problem of contradiction.


Stanza 45:Seems to me he is saying if you know he is no good get from him what you can and pay him back the same if he crosses you.

Stanza 46: If you dont trust someone, and you sense he is up to no good, dont let on, get close to him and repay what he does to you accordingly.
oh. i'll have to read through them again, the way i interpreted it was, kind of like instructions on how to get things from people you don't like by pretending to like them. maybe i just read it wrong.

[banondraig]

oh. i'll have to read through them again, the way i interpreted it was, kind of like instructions on how to get things from people you don't like by pretending to like them. maybe i just read it wrong.

the way i interpreted it was not to let people who pretend they like you in order to get things from you know that you are wise to them.

[Mjollnir]

thanks. hmmm... interesting. would you then say it is *not* a good idea to attribute herons to frigg? the reason i ask is, i've done so before, intuitively i think.


Let me get back to you on that ok?



well, yes indeed it says that in this translation. so maybe it's a moot discussion. i once printed out the havamal from northvegr, which is different:.


The Bellows translation may be different but the meaning stays the same, never trust the friend/kin of your enemy





oh. i'll have to read through them again, the way i interpreted it was, kind of like instructions on how to get things from people you don't like by pretending to like them. maybe i just read it wrong.

Or I could have...., if you do get something else when you re-read it let me know and I will do the same.

[Mjollnir]

Ok, here is the Bellows translation:


44. (43) To his friend a man a friend shall prove,
To him and the friend of his friend;
But never a man shall friendship make
With one of his foeman’s friends.

Again, a friend of a friend is good, friend/kin of an enemy= bad.


46. (45) If another thou hast whom thou hardly wilt trust,
Yet good from him wouldst get,
Thou shalt speak him fair, but falsely think,
And fraud with falsehood requite.



47. (46) So is it with him whom thou hardly wilt trust,
And whose mind thou mayst not know;
Laugh with him mayst thou, but speak not thy mind,
Like gifts to his shalt thou give.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer and the key part to me is this:"Like gifts to his shalt thou give." Paybacks are a bitch.


Also mothy, remember Stanza's 42 and 44 are just as important because they intertwine with the others to form the complete understanding.

[mothwench]

the way i interpreted it was not to let people who pretend they like you in order to get things from you know that you are wise to them.

yeah, i see how you can read that into the hollander translation. i'll post the versions i've got, and it doesn't come through like that at all:


if you deal with another you don't trust
but wish for his good-will,
be fair in speech but false in thought
and give him lie for lie


even with one you ill-trust
and doubt what he means to do,
false words with fair smiles
may get you the gift you desire.

thanks banondraig and mjollnir. :bubbles:

[mothwench]

okay, more questions. is stanza 49 a appeal to be properly clothed, groomed and basically look the best you can?
49) In the fields as i fared, (for fun) I hung

my weeds on two wooden men;

they werre reckoned folks when the rags they wore:

naked, a man is naught.


and i can't make any sense out of either versions of 66 and 67:


66) Too late by far to some feasts i came;

to others, all too soon;

the beer was drunk, or yet unbrewed;

never hits it the hapless one aright.



67) Here or there would they have me in,

if no meat at the meal i craved;

or hung two hams in my good friend's home,

after eating one of his own.

[Mjollnir]

okay, more questions. is stanza 49 a appeal to be properly clothed, groomed and basically look the best you can?

Hollander trans.Stanza 49 Note:Probably, wooden idols as signposts beside the road, intended to protect the wayfarer from evil powers.

Bellows trans.
50. (49) My garments once in a field I gave
To a pair of carven poles;
Heroes they seemed when clothes they had,
But the naked man is nought.


I can see what you mean, anyone else??



and i can't make any sense out of either versions of 66 and 67:


66) Too late by far to some feasts i came;

to others, all too soon;

the beer was drunk, or yet unbrewed;

never hits it the hapless one aright.


I think you could read it as you cant seem to catch a break, you either arrive after the brew is gone(too late) or before it is ready(too early) instead of being prepared and arriving to your destination in a timely manner.


Hollander trans.
67) Here or there would they have me in,

if no meat at the meal i craved;

or hung two hams in my good friend's home,

after eating one of his own.

Bellows trans.
68. (67) To their homes men would bid me hither and yon,
If at meal-time I needed no meat,
Or would hang two hams in my true freind’s house
Where only one I had eaten.

Could have to do with hospitality, making sure there is enough food for the guests. In the Sagas and in Northern history, hospitality was of utmost importance and even those with meager provisions would whatever they had to a guest. There is an excellent account in Egil's Saga of what he does when he feels he is being shirked as a guest and is told that the best food was being held back.

[mothwench]

ah, thanks. those two stanzas seem to make more sense now. :graduate:

[mothwench]

question bombardment! :boing: if this is too much, ignore, i'll surely understand. :)


any ideas about the meaning of stanza 80?


80) 'Tis readily found when the runes thou ask,

made by mighty Gods, known to holy hosts,

and dyed deep red by Othin:

that 'tis wise to waste no words.

this is puzzling....


81) At eve praise the day,

when burned down, a torch,

a wife when bedded, a weapon when tried,

ice when over it, ale when 'tis drunk.

quite different from the one i have:


for these things give thanks at nightfall:
the day gone, a guttered torch,
a sword tested, the troth of a maid,
ice crossed, ale drunk

one seems to say "don't count your chickens before they've hatched" and the other just seems to say don't take such-and-such for granted.
which do you think is the correct interpretation?

on to stanzas 84 and 91:


84) A wench's words let no wise man trust,

nor trust the troth of a woman;

for on whirling wheel their hearts are shaped,

and fickle and fitful their mings.


91) Heed my words now, for i know them both:

mainsworn are men to women;

we speak most fair when most foul our thoughts,

for that wiles the wariest wits.

mine reads:


naked may i speak now for both i know both:
men are treacherous too
fairest we speak when falsest we think:
many a maid is decieved.

okay, first of all... was it uncommon or unheard of that women should converse with men, or become friends?
because from what i believe, by looking at the cultures today and how they interact, that this isn't typical at all. germans and scandinavians are a lot less gender specific when it comes to education, upbringing and social interaction than say, for example, american or mediterranian (i'm looking in comparison to e.g. spain) cultures.


what are all the stanzas about billings daughter trying to say? that you should know your boundaries, and try and accept them? or is it just an extensive example of experience in references to the two stanzas before all that, 93 and 94, which say you shouldn't mock a man for having falling in love?


:ringaroun

[banondraig]

okay, more questions. is stanza 49 a appeal to be properly clothed, groomed and basically look the best you can?

and/or watch out for stuffed shirts and the people who take them seriously.

and i can't make any sense out of either versions of 66 and 67:

66 sounds a lot like my life lately.

67, i don't know, i can't make heads or tails of it either.

[mothwench]

this is a bit bizarre... :lol:

what is a shaft maker? :huh: and why is it unlucky to be one? i've never heard this. you'd think there would be a lack of shoemakers in all of skandinavia. is there??? why shoemakers and shaft carvers? what'd they do?
;) this post is a wee bit tongue in cheek, but i'm still a bit curious. maybe someone has some input or an idea.


126) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

neither shoemaker be nor shaftmaker, either,

but it be for thyself:

let the shoe be ill shaped or the shaft not true,

and they will wish thee woe.

[mothwench]

this, of course, is quite interesting and i just wanted to comment:



137) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

when ale thou drinkest invoke earth-strength;

[for earth is good 'gainst ale, 'gainst ague, fire,

'gainst straining, acorns, 'gainst witchery, steel,

'gainst house-strife, the elder, 'gainst hate, the moon,

'gainst rabies, alum,. 'gainst ill luck, runes--]

for earth absorbs thehumours all.

the moon against hate... intreguing, captian. *does spock eyebrow thing*
acorns against straining... my translation says oak against costiveness. do they mean constipation? :huh:
in any case, i wouldn't recommend that... :lol:

[mothwench]

66 sounds a lot like my life lately.



:lol: yeah, mine too! :T

[Mjollnir]

Just gimme some time mothy, I just got into work a lil' bit ago and left the Poetic Edda home. I may have to call home and have the wife walk me through any Notes on the Stanza's you mentioned, lmao.

[Mjollnir]

this, of course, is quite interesting and i just wanted to comment:




the moon against hate... intreguing, captian. *does spock eyebrow thing*
acorns against straining... my translation says oak against costiveness. do they mean constipation? :huh:
in any case, i wouldn't recommend that... :lol:


I may be mistaken but that may be one of the rune charms.

[Mjollnir]

one seems to say "don't count your chickens before they've hatched" and the other just seems to say don't take such-and-such for granted.
which do you think is the correct interpretation?


I would say neither, I think it more along the lines of being thankful. Think about it, you survived another day, the torch stayed lit when you needed it to stay lit, a wife when bedded...the love of your woman...your weapon proved true and didnt shatter, you didnt fall in the lake,river,stream etc. when you crossed it, and you come home and kick back and enjoy a cold one. I want you to remember though, this is only my opinion as to how I am reading it, in time after reading it again and again it may have a clearer or different meaning to me.






on to stanzas 84 and 91:









okay, first of all... was it uncommon or unheard of that women should converse with men, or become friends?
because from what i believe, by looking at the cultures today and how they interact, that this isn't typical at all. germans and scandinavians are a lot less gender specific when it comes to education, upbringing and social interaction than say, for example, american or mediterranian (i'm looking in comparison to e.g. spain) cultures.

In the Saga's there are countless examples of men and woman conversing together and being friends, the only time it was looked bad was if the man involved was not the suitor they had in mind and sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didnt. I think it was Kormak's Saga that has a good example and also I believe the Volsung Saga their is an example.




what are all the stanzas about billings daughter trying to say? that you should know your boundaries, and try and accept them? or is it just an extensive example of experience in references to the two stanzas before all that, 93 and 94, which say you shouldn't mock a man for having falling in love?


Rind was Billings daughter who bore Odin's son Vali who was born with the sole purpose of killing Hod in revenge for Baldr's death. If I remember correctly Odin had to go before her 3 different times in different guises before she finally relented.....I'm pretty sure that's how that one went. The Stanzas after that tell of how he bedded Gunnloth to get the mead that was made after the dwarves killed Kvasir, then a giant and his wife which was then taken by his brother I think giant and hidden in the side of a mountain and so on.........As far as what they are trying to say?? I think they are more telling the story as opposed to having a meaning, I could be wrong though.

[Mjollnir]

67, i don't know, i can't make heads or tails of it either.


Bannon? did you see the response I gave to mothy regarding this one?


Hollander trans.
67) Here or there would they have me in,

if no meat at the meal i craved;

or hung two hams in my good friend's home,

after eating one of his own.

Bellows trans.
68. (67) To their homes men would bid me hither and yon,
If at meal-time I needed no meat,
Or would hang two hams in my true freind’s house
Where only one I had eaten.

Could have to do with hospitality, making sure there is enough food for the guests. In the Sagas and in Northern history, hospitality was of utmost importance and even those with meager provisions would whatever they had to a guest. There is an excellent account in Egil's Saga of what he does when he feels he is being shirked as a guest and is told that the best food was being held back.

If it still is a little fuzzy lemme ask some of my kinsmen and see what their take is on it and I will get back you on it.

[mothwench]

ta very much for the responses, mjollnir. :yourock:

[Rick]

this is a bit bizarre... :lol:

what is a shaft maker? :huh: and why is it unlucky to be one? i've never heard this. you'd think there would be a lack of shoemakers in all of skandinavia. is there??? why shoemakers and shaft carvers? what'd they do?
;) this post is a wee bit tongue in cheek, but i'm still a bit curious. maybe someone has some input or an idea.
Quote:
126) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,

learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,

follow it, 'twill further thee:

neither shoemaker be nor shaftmaker, either,

but it be for thyself:

let the shoe be ill shaped or the shaft not true,

and they will wish thee woe.
A shaft-maker is a maker of arrows, or maybe spears. This is an admonition to be self-reliant... um, in modern terms, it might say "If you want to be sure that your parachute opens, pack it yourself."

[mothwench]

hmmm... completely self reliant as in make your own shoes? i'm all for self reliance as a community, but that level of self reliance is taking things a bit far, no? does this stanza refer to all crafts and trades? it just uses shoemakers and shaft makers as an example?

[KellyP]

I read the verse as urging one to be moderate when you are a guest in another's home. "If no meat at the meal I craved" stating that he had not put undue burden on his hosts by asking for meat when none had been offered. Then "hung two hams ... after eating one of his own" showing that he had returned the favor of hospitality with gifts.

That's my nickel on the matter.


Hollander trans.
67) Here or there would they have me in,
if no meat at the meal i craved;
or hung two hams in my good friend's home,
after eating one of his own.

Bellows trans.
68. (67) To their homes men would bid me hither and yon,
If at meal-time I needed no meat,
Or would hang two hams in my true freind’s house
Where only one I had eaten.

[KellyP]

126) Hear thou, Loddfafnir, and heed it well,
learn it, 'twill lend thee strength,
follow it, 'twill further thee:
neither shoemaker be nor shaftmaker, either,
but it be for thyself:
let the shoe be ill shaped or the shaft not true,
and they will wish thee woe.


I love Mjollnir and Rick's interpretations of these strophes as they so often provide an approach that I have not considered. As an example, in this verse I took the words as a warning to avoid putting yourself in a position of scapegoat. For if you are the shaftmaker, then the hunter or warrior can make you the blame for the missed target or for a weak shaft. Further, if you are the shoemaker, then you are in a position to be blamed for frailty or soreness. Each time the people tell the tale of the missed shot or the calloused foot, it is your name that will be at stake.

[Rick]

Kelly, I think we're lookin' at both ends of the same stick... seems it would be best to not put yourself into either position...

Yes, I love the 'discuss it' approach to learning, as well. In my IRL rune classes, I think I learn more from my students than they learn from me (but don't tell THEM that, OK? :hehehehe: ).

[mothwench]

I love Mjollnir and Rick's interpretations of these strophes as they so often provide an approach that I have not considered. As an example, in this verse I took the words as a warning to avoid putting yourself in a position of scapegoat. For if you are the shaftmaker, then the hunter or warrior can make you the blame for the missed target or for a weak shaft. Further, if you are the shoemaker, then you are in a position to be blamed for frailty or soreness. Each time the people tell the tale of the missed shot or the calloused foot, it is your name that will be at stake.


yeah, those are good points, but the same can be said for virtually any trade. and since the havamal is a code of conduct and ethics i think it would be odd if indeed that meaning were correct. if everyone adhered to that rule it would stifle economy, even back then. odin would have known that, and so would snorri.

[Mjollnir]

I read the verse as urging one to be moderate when you are a guest in another's home. "If no meat at the meal I craved" stating that he had not put undue burden on his hosts by asking for meat when none had been offered. Then "hung two hams ... after eating one of his own" showing that he had returned the favor of hospitality with gifts.

That's my nickel on the matter.


Interesting interpretation Kelly. I hadnt thought of it that way, I guess in a way it can also be related to Stanza 20.
The greedy guest gainsays his head
and eats until he is ill;
his belly oft maketh a butt of a man,
on bench 'midst the sage when he sits.

Agree??

[Rick]

yeah, those are good points, but the same can be said for virtually any trade. and since the havamal is a code of conduct and ethics i think it would be odd if indeed that meaning were correct. if everyone adhered to that rule it would stifle economy, even back then. odin would have known that, and so would snorri.
Mothy, as with so many of these strophes, I think the general point here is to take responsibility for yourself and not to be overly dependent on others (there's that 'all things in moderation' theme again). Taken in context, these two activities (shoe & shaft making) could have profound affects on survival. If a man's arrows or spears don't fly true, then he (and in turn his family) might not survive. If his footwear hurts his feet, he might not be able to walk behind a plow, or track game, or maybe even stand to defend himself. And the local "economy" was contained within each farmstead (of course there was trading, near & far, but each farmstead had to be pretty self-sufficient). Remember, the mind-set was tribal, not national.

[KellyP]

Interesting interpretation Kelly. I hadnt thought of it that way, I guess in a way it can also be related to Stanza 20.
The greedy guest gainsays his head
and eats until he is ill;
his belly oft maketh a butt of a man,
on bench 'midst the sage when he sits.

Agree??
Absolutely. The themes of moderation and hospitality fill many of the strophes. In fact, it would be an interesting exercise to work through the Havamal mapping the lines to the virtues you feel are being stressed to the reader.

[banondraig]

Bannon? did you see the response I gave to mothy regarding this one?


i have now. :D



If it still is a little fuzzy lemme ask some of my kinsmen and see what their take is on it and I will get back you on it.

thanks. it makes sense now, i was a little brain-fried when i was on here last night.

[mothwench]

it would be an interesting exercise to work through the Havamal mapping the lines to the virtues you feel are being stressed to the reader.

i've been doing that, actually. and i've found there are alot more than nine noble virtues. which is why i've decided i'll disreguard them. i'm now comparing my notes to the thirty virtues mjollnir posted on page 1.

[mothwench]

Mothy, as with so many of these strophes, I think the general point here is to take responsibility for yourself and not to be overly dependent on others (there's that 'all things in moderation' theme again). Taken in context, these two activities (shoe & shaft making) could have profound affects on survival. If a man's arrows or spears don't fly true, then he (and in turn his family) might not survive. If his footwear hurts his feet, he might not be able to walk behind a plow, or track game, or maybe even stand to defend himself. And the local "economy" was contained within each farmstead (of course there was trading, near & far, but each farmstead had to be pretty self-sufficient). Remember, the mind-set was tribal, not national.
hmmm. makes sense now, in daylight. last night i just couldn't figure it. :hehehehe: thanks rick.

[Mjollnir]

i've been doing that, actually. and i've found there are alot more than nine noble virtues. which is why i've decided i'll disreguard them. i'm now comparing my notes to the thirty virtues mjollnir posted on page 1.


Hey mothy, here is a little something to help you with that.

http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/sagamal.php

http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/trulog.php

[KellyP]

i've been doing that, actually. and i've found there are alot more than nine noble virtues. which is why i've decided i'll disreguard them. i'm now comparing my notes to the thirty virtues mjollnir posted on page 1.

Well, I hope you will choose to share your final results with us. I applaud your dedication. _handclapp

[mothwench]

thanks for the links mjollnir. what i've been doing, is trying to group together the ones which have a similar ethical theme, like for example hospitality. so far i've found 20 of these "themes". which i then intend to break down further... yeah, sure i'll post it when i'm done. :smile:

[mothwench]

by the way, mjollnir, i just have to ask... :toofless:

what did stormbeard not do? :huh:

[Mjollnir]

by the way, mjollnir, i just have to ask... :toofless:

what did stormbeard not do? :huh:


From what I have been told, not really anything......................but hes gone nonetheless

[mothwench]

oh. well meh. i thought he was quite nice.

okay... back on topic, sorry. :bigredblu

[Nantonos]

thanks for the links mjollnir. what i've been doing, is trying to group together the ones which have a similar ethical theme, like for example hospitality. so far i've found 20 of these "themes". which i then intend to break down further... yeah, sure i'll post it when i'm done. :smile:

In connection with that, you might want to have a look at

What was the Proto-Indo-European religion like ?
http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/pier/whatwasreligion.htm

in particular that the two main themes in PIE religion were reciprocal hospitality (between people and other people, or between people and deities), *ghostis (from which both guest and host) and the meaning or pattern of the universe, *Xartus. From which 'correct action' and also wyrd, it seems.

I was looking at that because I was wondering how far back these codified virtues or laws go. Three theories

a) they are intrinsic to all PIE-derived cultures (so one would expect semilar things in Greek, Celtic, Roman religion as well as Germanic)
b) they are late attempts to have a suitable competitor to things like the 10 commandments, as Christianity started to be pervasive
c) they are specific to Germanic religion

Naturally, to differentiate between these possibilities means looking earlier than the rather late Norse/Icelandic material for comparative material.

Also of interest,
http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/pier/ritual.htm

[mothwench]

thanks very much, nantonos. :smile:

[Nantonos]

Another long list of 53 ethical precepts. The link gives a complete translation, one by one, of these concepts plus the introductory formula.

http://societasviaromana.org/Collegium_Philosophicum/cato.php

I find that there is a striking similarity here to the list in the Havmal.

[mothwench]

wow. do roman reconstructionists use that as a sort of a "code of ethics" sort of thing?

[Nantonos]

the concepts, yes, but not as a codified checklist.