Is it ethical to tell a person, if you prophesy death in their future???

[Swanspirit]

And by so doing ..or NOT doing .... do we influence that outcome???
Love and Light
Swannie

[Shadowulfe]

That is a VERY good question swan...personally i would tell them to be very cautious in the future...i wouldnt say anything about death. but that is just my side of things

[Swanspirit]

I thought I was going to have to prophesy the death of this thread......:eek: but I would love to hear some thoughts.....and experiences ..................... I know this one is a toughie..... and there are many levels.....
I have my own ideas....... but have some reservations abuot making hard and fast rules about anything ...........
So let see what develops...... shall we?
Love and light
Swannie

[Twilight Garden]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
I thought I was going to have to prophesy the death of this thread......:eek:You're so silly! :T

I would not ever tell someone that I foresaw death. I would hope the divination/prophesy would give insight as to the cause and warn the person of a "problem". Then go from there. I have yet to come across that forecast, so I'm not speeking from experience. It could be difficult to relay the message. So, how do you do or not do it?

Do we influence the outcome?...Yes and no. Yes if you don't believe in fate/destiny, no if you do. Confused?...If you don't believe in fate, then there is a life (undestined) to be tampered with. If you do believe in fate, then it was fate that you do or don't make the warning and the outcome will be the same either way. I don't really know about this stuff, I'm just dishing out random thoughts.:D

[Silver Venus]

I agree with Shadow and Lunar ~ I would be outraged if anyone would tell someone that in reading.. how can they?... :(
I havent had any experinces and hope I will never.

Whats your thoughts then Swan?

[Lilu]

I have to agree with Silver Venus. I think that people are highly suggestive when they come to you for a reading, regardless of the oracle. And that if you were to tell them they are going to die - or that you see death in their future possibly - you could probably influence them enough that they may create that reality for themselves when it wasn't written in stone.

Like I've said in the past - any oracle/dream/prophecy is JUST one "window", one "look" into a POSSIBLE future. Nothing is written in stone, and we can walk out the door from a reading and make a decision that will change that possible future in any number of ways. I think we have a huge responsibility to remind people of this fact when we are doing a reading or have had a prophecy or whatever.

And maybe we can perhaps warn someone to see a doctor or have their health looked at if we see problems in that area. I think we have to really tread carefully on these things BECAUSE nothing is written in stone, and if you feel a need to warn someone then do so, but you should definitely stress that it is just one possible future out of millions of possible futures.

BB
Lilu

[Silver Venus]

Well said! I was too emotional before but I think this question has allot to do with the idea of fate and choosing which path.

A careful tactful warning is all we can do and just pray, light a candle and be there for them.

[Avena]

Is it actually possible to foresee another person's death via reading? I mean the word death is very concrete, so how could it show up during a reading?

Tarot: does the death card really mean death?

Runes: Does (e.g) the Hagal(az) rune as a rune of the underworld really show death?

pendulum: ...lack of examples coz I've never worked with it....

witchboard: same as pendulum and any other way of divination...

If it was possible I wouldn't tell the unfortunate about their fate, because IMO you aren't allowed to influence another person's life in such a fateful manner. And what about if the cards/runes/whatever were wrong or I just misunderstood their message? :ahhhh:

[Lilu]

Hi Avena,

You know, I don't know if it is possible to literally "see death" in someone. There are people who read auras who can see "illness" for instance, but that doesn't necessarily mean death. The same for any oracle I personally think. In tarot, the death card does not literally mean death, the same with any other card/rune/sign like that. More often than not it can mean "rebirth" or "death of a situation" or something like that. It is usually more symbolic than literal, and people have to remember that too.

And yes, the misinterpretation is ANOTHER reason I feel that we need to tread very lightly around announcing an "impending death" or anything, because we can't see the future that clearly - like I already said, an oracle - any oracle, is just one look into a *possible* future, it is not the be all and end all.

BB
Lilu

[Semele]

I would look at it less as an ethics question and one more of tact.

I would never tell someone that I thought they were to die soon...I am just not that confident in my visions...even if I were I don't think I would do so.

[Swanspirit]

What I am attemtping to express here
is the idea or notion that by making such and such a "prediction" are we contributing in some way to the outcome..... and really once we have entered our energy into an interaction we cannot divorce ourselves .... and be in a vacuum and we are now "part of the outcome" speaking from an energy and magical standpoint.....
I think that by so doing; that is predicting death ,we can "help it along".... because as a long time astrologer...... I have found that people are indeed looking for "answers" and as a part of my ethics would not predict death ......for the very reason that things are not etched in stone and that events can be changed...... and the power of suggestion is very powerful indeed......and plays
a part in bringing about those events and can actually set a chain of events in motion , which is also why I see making those predictions as "helping" these events to occur ..... if you see my logic on that...........
...... let me just say I put the prophesying of war in the same category as predicting death in a
reading or dream or "prophetic statement" of any kind...... just so you know where I am coming from on this......
Part of the reason I say this... is because as soon as we are called on to do a reading , or as soon we make some dream or prophesy known..... we are entering our energy into the reading..... even though we are following that fine thread of future knowledge .. there are many possible outcomes and threads in the tapestry ... ... as has been mentioned....because there is ALWAYS free will and choice......
But I also dont like hard and fast rules ......because then I feel I am following a rule and not responding to the individual situation.......so where normally and under almost anything but extreme circumstances .. I would not predict death .......and I dont think I would ever predict or prophesy war..... for the same reasons....
I have been giving this some thought because we are in a war .........and I have had a dream about Osama Bin Laden......I think I posted in the dream class thread ....... where I did dream of his death ( ya ya I know how hard is that!.....:eek: and in the same category with predicting war in the Middle East:eek: )...... and I KNOW that a lot of other people are "dreaming" of his death in another fashion.....but this was a dream of the prognosticative kind....... for me ..... so I have to question and examine my personal responsiblity and my ethical stance here ........
as much as I think that he needs to be brought to justice ..........and that for him death very well might be justice..... I still
am personally dealing with having had the dream .
I am looking at this issue from a larger standpoint....
because ordinarily I would not ever predict death or war.....
Love and Light
Swannie

[Silver Venus]

Yeah I agree, thats why I would never even think about predicting death because you always have that guilt to deal with in the back of your mind ~what if I didnt think or say that? Which is what your talking about I think... the guilt factor.

Bin Laden is a different kettle of fish all together... and so to some are our dreams ~ they can be prophetic but also just a way for the mind to digest and cope with matters...
In the dream discussion you said he changed into death/dead which again can mean the end of a period, way of thinking, path.. so it could mean in this case his physical death but also our world putting a death on him and his army. I think you said this was in the corner of a happy picture? If you put this together with the end/death translation it means peace and happiness is restored to me.

[Lilu]

I think it's possible to view something without feeding energy into it, myself. Yes, we are interacting in a small manner by doing the reading, but I often open myself up as a VESSEL for Spirit to speak through me. Oftentimes I get messages that I'd have never even thought of which are obviously Spirit and not my thoughts.

So I think that it's possible to get "predictions" or "visions" of things that you aren't feeding energy into. And I think we can stay detached enough to give this information to someone without influencing the outcome in any way. Granted, this is probably pretty rare, but I don't think that just because we "see" death or war or whatever, that we are contributing to the outcome.

I think until you sit there, dwelling on the reading, and feeding energy into it, you are not exactly interacting wholely with it. And like I said earlier, if a lot of what I was seeing was pointing to death, I might advise the client to see a doctor and have their health checked out - but I wouldn't dwell on the "death" part and feed energy into it, any more than I would dwell on the "seeing the doctor and everything being ok" part of it. It's up to the client to choose their path, not to me to feed energy into making them go one way or another.

Just my 0.02c

BB
Lilu

[Swanspirit]

That is it possible to have things come through...... but once we are the vessel.... it comes through with part of our energy.......
and the CHOICE as to whether we share it ..... and the method and the impetus is where our energy enters in..... and I beleive we have a choice as to how much emphasis or not we place on certain parts...... as guided by spirit or our own knowledge.........
Actually ... this is one of the reasons I stay away from "predictive" astrology and and stay with spiritual ..... to allow what ever choices come from readings or charts to come from the people........
The original conversation that this discussion stemmed from was something I said in another thread.... about people who were almost gleefully predicting war in the middle east and /or ..as a precursor to the apocalyptic visions that some people predict and that I felt that by doing so they were "helping " bring about some of these things ......and that moved into the entire discussion of predicting death and / or war......
I think that some of these people would like to see these things happen just to so they can say I TOLD YOU SO....which is so horrible in my estimation..... and I think that is very different than someone who sees something dire and realises there are alternatives and attempts to stop it or change it ......
hmmm like someone who sees an accident and takes a different route home from work ...... or someone who suggests someone see a doctor etc.....or avoid some danger .......
Love and light
Swannie

[Danustouch]

Well..i for one, think it wholly depends on the situation. For instance, If I had a vision, of someone really close to me, dying...and this person understood my being psychic, I would definately feel the need to express this to them. Most of the people who are close to me, know how I feel about visions. My personal feeling of visions, is that they are warnings of what can or could be, if they do not change the course of events in their life. For instance, once I got a vision of a friend of mine, dying in a drunk driving crash. He was often driving drunk, so it wasnt' hard to validate that reading. It was an intense possibility. So..one night, after having a very vivid vision of his death...I called him and warned him. He stopped driving drunk, because of the detailed way in which I saw his death happening. I couldn't keep that to myself. I had to share it, because it really seemed like a message from the "Gods"...that this could happen to him. And why would they give it to me, if I wasn't supposed to use it?

On the other hand, if i was just reading a strangers cards, I would never tell them whether or not I prophecied death in their or their loved ones futures. I've been ASKED to do that in the past, but I've refused. Not because I think that by drawing a conclusion i'm definately "Causing" it to happen (manifesting that energy into reality?)...but because I felt I wasn't close enough to the situation, to know all of the surrounding elements. For instance, one woman wanted to know how long her diabetic husband (who'd already had a leg amputated)..was going to live. I refused to answer, and I told her that the reason I wouldn't make that kind of prophecy, is because A)I'm not a doctor. B)I believe in the power of positive thought in such illnesses. So I don't want to take away any hope that is still present, and I don't want to give hope, where none should be. C)that since i'm not a psychiatrist, and this wasn't a psychiatric session, I couldn't be sure of the mental states of those i read for. If a person was a person of a hysterical nature, i could have a HUGE problem on my hands. So I never make readings like that. What I CAN forecast, is whether or not a person needs to seek medical attention. Etc.

But..this is for a stranger...not a close friend of mine. If the person were a close friend of mine, i'd feel a DUTY to tell them the truth of what I saw in their future, no matter what it was. A duty to provide them with options.

Btw..regarding tarot, and "Death"...i can see death in the cards, not by drawing the "death card" necessarily. It depends on what other cards are surrounding it. If I get the five of pentacles, the ten of swords, the tower, death, etc, etc, etc. If I draw several of those cards together, with say...hmm...Five of Cups??? That might signal a deep illness, perhaps resulting in death, around the person. But...Being that each card in the tarot has several meanings, I wouldn't feel comfortable telling a person they could die. I'd just say that they need to go to the doctor, and get a physical. That there may be some underlaying illnesses they are not yet aware of.

So my point here, is that I think it totally depends on the situation. Certainly, I do not look FOWARD to predicting anyone's demise. And certainly, even if i DID see it, I wouldn't tell EVERY person whom I saw it ins future.

But...if the person were a really close friend, or family member, and if my prediction could somehow stop those events from occurring. Yes..I would tell them. That's another issue. When thinking about the ethics of prophecying death..one must think of that, also. "Will telling them my prediction CHANGE the course of events. Can it HELP?". If you are seeing your elderly aunts death, and she's 89 years old, well..maybe that's something you should keep to yourself. But..if the situation is highly preventable, you might want to tell people.

As for the Osama bin Ladin prophecies, guess this will have to be moved to political pagan:) But.....if people DID prophecy huge terrorist attacks on the country, I don't think you can cast blame in their direction. Especially if they kept the vision to themselves, or amongst their close associates. They didn't MAKE it happen. I know for me, my visions often come when I am sleeping, or when I am least aware, so I couldn't STOP my visions from happening even if I wanted to. If they went around and broadcast their predictions on every late night infomercial or talkshow..then you might have a case for the whole.."conciousness causing the reality" thing. But even then...i have to wonder. I mean..yes..i believe in the ripple effect. But the chances of such a HUGE ripple causing SO much destruction, based on someones prophecies, is a little bit of a leap, don't ya think. Especially since SOOOOO many people DO NOT believe in such things. There are SO many skeptics out there, especially in government and law enforcement, etc. So I don't really see, in any way, how making a prophecy could CAUSE something to come true. Self fulfilling prophecies, yes..I understand that thought. But not on so large a scale.

And if it were absolutely true, that we could cause horrible disasters to occur, with our powers of prophecy, then why would they be given to us in the first place? If you are psychic, you are psychic. And you can't just turn it off. IMO. So...what would the reason be for having the gift, if all it were to do, is cause destruction?

[Danustouch]

PS...i agree that the "I told you so" group of "psychics" who use it as a career building tool, are complete idiots, btw. The ones who seek their own glory or fame through making such predictions..are scum, in my estimation.

[Lilu]

The topic is in relation to an individual, and what to do if you prophecy death in their future. I think I've already expressed my feelings on the subject pretty clearly here. Bringing up the subject of predicting war is not exactly addressing the question.

BB
Lilu

[Lilu]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Well..i for one, think it wholly depends on the situation. For instance, If I had a vision, of someone really close to me, dying...and this person understood my being psychic, I would definately feel the need to express this to them.

I think you're absolutely right! And I think that when it comes to some things - such as your dream about your friend - I would feel obligated to mention it to them as it just might change things for them. But when it comes to reading for strangers, or where "death" is not a certain or the message isn't that clear, then we still need to tread lightly on what we say to people and such.

And like I said - you can just be the messenger - you were able to relay a message from the Universe to your friend about his drink driving, a path he may end up traveling if he didn't choose a different one. He could have decided to CONTINUE to drink and drive regardless, and that would have been his choice, and you telling him about the vision would have nothing to do with whether or not it came true. IMHO

BB
Lilu

[Swanspirit]

I am so impressed with your thoughts and the expression therein........beautiful expression..............and train of thought ......very grounded and real but intensely thoughtful and introspective as well....
I especialy like the ideas about the self fulfilling prophecies.... and the skeptics.....
I think the addendum would be if we envision or work to create a world of peace ..... that we can and do send our energies in that way ,,,, but then again we are back to adding our influences in a way that WE THINK is correct at the moment........
AS in helping someone hold on to hope ..... which is an incredibly important thing........cannot underestimate that power...... IMHO......am glad you brought that forward......what a great discussion the microcosm and the macro together .........
Years ago.. a.. friend of mine and my self once had a series of VERY frightening dreams ..... ( we have even had shared dreams and astral traveled together ) where body parts went missing etc ..... even eyes..... and instead of reading "disasters and calamities"...... we went esoteric with it since it was just us and we both have prognosticative dreams ...... and related it to certain chakras and energy centers opening.....
and in actuality that is what happened ..... we were involved in working with those specific energies...... with our own personal issues and life changes......
So I agree that the predictions with people who are close can be more personal and intimate than someone we dont know .......
It is a gift......... and a very precious one indeed........
Love and light
Swannie

[Swanspirit]

as well......."PS...i agree that the "I told you so" group of "psychics" who use it
as a career building tool, are complete idiots, btw. The ones who
seek their own glory or fame through making such predictions..are
scum, in my estimation."


Scum buckets to be certain..........

People who make you want to go ewwwwwwwwww

Love and admiration for you Danus
Swannie

[Rick]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
And by so doing ..or NOT doing .... do we influence that outcome???
Love and Light
Swannie

1. No
2. No

People die when they die. You could affect it only if you told them they were going to die, & then killed them.

[Swanspirit]

that might be easy to say "People die when they die. You could affect it only if you told them
they were going to die, & then killed them."
but perhaps you have never talked someone down from a potential suicide ..... some people are more vulnerable and fragile than others.......
I just dont think its that "cut and dried" with people .......instilling hope is one of the most incredible and life affirming things you can do for someone...... and can make the difference between another suicide attempt ..... in which they might succeed even accidentally ......or healing.......
If people were just going to "die when they die".. why bother with healing of any kind......
predicting death is telling someone there is NO HOPE .........
I wouldnt choose that in most instances.....
Love and Light
Swannie

[Myst]

Originally posted by Rick
People die when they die. You could affect it only if you told them they were going to die, & then killed them.

And that is far beyond the scope of Divination, unless perhaps if you bean them with your pendulum or stabbed them with your planchette.

I agree with Semele, it is more a matter of tact then ethics. Certainly I know a few people who would've appreciated being told they'd die earlier or at least get sick awhile ago. If they had maybe they would have changed their ways. Then again, maybe they'd then be hit by a safe from the sky. The future is never set, certainly not by my or anyone else's readings.

[cydira]

I've always had visions. When I started using the tarot and other methods of divination, these visions became a bit more intensified and slightly more controlled. When I see things like death or a sudden trauma to the person I am doing a reading for, I remind myself that I see only one possiblity. Sure, something we say or do could set off the chain of events to fulfill the vision, but so could a thousand other minute details in the day too.

When we begin to enter into the realm of prophecying doom and death, we take on a burden that I suspect none should shoulder. We can not control fate, destiny or what ever it is called. We may see glimpses of the pattern that makes up the future, but we never see the whole. How can we presume that the strands of fate that we're looking at now are fixed and that our actions will directly influence them compared to others. I do not have such a high opinion of myself or of my gift.

It is a thing that I've struggled with for years. I alternate between feeling guilty for the deaths that I've seen before they happened and the horrid helplessness of knowing that there was nothing I could do. How could a young girl in Upstate New York have any kind of impact on a mudslide in South America or a bus accident in Texas that happens many years after her vision? In many respects, I am still that frightened girl. Frightened of my gift and of how it makes me different from others. To begin to burden some one who comes to me for help with that awful guilt or helplessness of knowing such sorrow to come is unthinkable.

We who have this gift strongly have the strength to bear it. We can cope, in our own way, with the helplessness of seeing fates twisting into knots of horror that become increasingly powerful and complex. Years ago, I forsaw warfare in the Middle East. As a girl, I forsaw an ice storm that came in my junior year of highschool. I take the attitude that the warfare is as likely to come as the ice storm. It may come tomarrow or today. Or it may not come for a long time yet. Either way, it will come to us. It is a matter of time, and time is what we can never say is predicted with certianty.

I have rambled, I apologize for that. But I can't think of any other way to express this. If it seems too simple, keep in mind that I have in many respects lived with the gift of second sight alone and afraid of it. If I seem to be preaching, then it is only with the hope that others won't put themselves through the awful guilt that I have at times. We all have wonderous gifts, telling others things to sorrow them is a cruel and sadistic use of these gifts. If sorrow is to come to them, then let it come in it's own time. Give them advice to delay it's arrival as long a possible and to prepair for it. But don't fool them into a panic over a few flakes when they expected a blizzard or to flout the first hint of a blizzard as something unimportant because of your unease.

Blessed be.

[Lilu]

Thanks for posting your thoughts cydira, I found them very interesting! I think what I found most interesting is how you seem to be saying that we need to continue living, in the here and now - not be scared or put off by visions of what is just a possible future. And also that it is very hard to put into a time frame when (or if) these visions will come to pass, so there is very little point in making ourselves sick over such things. And of course, just by acknowledging these visions, doesn't mean that they are going to come to pass. If I have misinterpreted anything, do correct me!

BB
Lilu

[Myst]

Originally posted by cydira
When we begin to enter into the realm of prophecying doom and death, we take on a burden that I suspect none should shoulder. We can not control fate, destiny or what ever it is called. We may see glimpses of the pattern that makes up the future, but we never see the whole. How can we presume that the strands of fate that we're looking at now are fixed and that our actions will directly influence them compared to others. I do not have such a high opinion of myself or of my gift.

The thing is, *nothing* can be absolutely foreseen. Meaning everytime you do a reading for someone you are telling them something that may or may not happen - a future that will occur if things stay as they are. The diviner sees a possible future - not just someone's death, but everything. Because we can never be sure if that future will be the one reached should we stop divining? Well everyone throw out your tarot cards and crystal balls.

I don't think anyone is suggesting "you will die on this date at this time because..", and if they are it's not a question of ethics. Every diviner knows they see a possible future, not an absolute one. It is not an ethical question then of whether you can tell someone "you will die on this date at this time because..", it is the fact that no one ever knows the absolute future (except maybe the Gods). Pretending to do so isn't unethical, it's just lying.

I think people are saying that if they see their querent dying in the future then why not say "there are some destructive things in your life right now you need to fix or you will have health problems, etc."? As unethical as anyone may seem to think it is, if someone told me my kidneys were slowly failing and if I didn't start eating more healthy I could die in a few decades, I would be happy to know that! I know a lot of sick people who right now would have been happy to have heard that, including my own dad with his complications from diabetes and heart problems from smoking since he was 9. If you foresaw your best friend dying because of of his habit of driving drunk would you just hush up because telling him so is unethical?

Consider the question of why psychics and diviners aren't stinking rich because of the lottery. You might decide you want to win the lottery, you might even focus energy towards it. But consider the fact that there are thousands of people out there who are also focusing energy on it, and how there's is combating yours. Now, suppose by doing a reading for someone and foreseeing their death you actually do put energy into that possibility (tho I'd have to wonder why you'd do that unless you
really disliked them). Now consider the fact that they have their own energy focused into not dying (unless they're pretty masochistic). Consider their friends and families doing the same. Consider the people around them and that they don't even know right now who need them to help learn lessons in life. Guess what? What little bit of energy you might or might not have projected into them dying is probably dissolved in all the energy set to let them live.

Our life makes many twists and turns but in the end we learn the lessons we need to then move on. Thus, everyone who dies does so at the best time for them. So if you were to foresee a chain smoker dying in the future and told him as much, and he quit smoking and didn't die in 20 years like you saw, then he wasn't meant to die. And if he laughed at you and continued smoking and died, he was meant to. And if he stopped smoking then got hit by a truck because he was afraid he was jinxed, he was meant to die. Divination has never been a tool to see the absolute future, only to make the querent aware of current conditions and things that may happened because of those conditions. Yes it is arrogant to assume that we can see the absolute true future, but I don't think any diviner here has that assumption. And again, if someone does, they aren't "unethical", they are simply wrong. In my opinion, there are *no* coincidences, and everything happens for a reason.

[cydira]

Lilu, I guess that'd be the abridged version of what I said, yeah. :D I get a little long winded when I've got insomnia and I can't put what I want to say in to something consice.

Sorry about that everyone, bad habit. :D

Again, I really do hope I didn't offend anyone with what I said. I got a little high handed in spots, sorry about that.:rolleyes:

[Lilu]

:) Wasn't trying to shorten it any - just saying what I found interesting! :) Thanks!

BB
Lilu

[Silver Venus]

With all that great reading, Ive forgotten what I was going to say now ;)
Brilliant points everyone!

[ShadowCat]

I only have a limited experience with one divination method- runes, but I would say that an interpretation of death is rather pessimistic. I don't know if this applies to other methods but runes can be read in many different ways.
If the only possible outcome, however, is death in your opinion then maybe you should advise that something bad may happen.
The future does not have to be so gloomy, as divination (in relation to the future), I believe is only a method of giving an idea of what is at the end of a path that you are currently taking in life and that this is not necessarily different. I think that subtle lifestyle changes can avoid any predicted catastrophes, and subtle lifestyle changes can come about by simply telling the person whom you are giving the reading to perhaps be a little more careful in the future, or hint that they should be. I hope I have helped!! :)

[Emy]

I haven't had any experience of this kind. I have however drawn the Death card a few times, but it has never been there in that sense, I mean it has never been there to say that one is gonna die, but in a lesser sense like you need to let an old habit die etc.
The card also stands for that...

Anyways if I saw death in a reading (either in the death card or in some other cards) I would probably not tell... but that depends I guess, I dont know... I guess there could be some situation where it would be the right thing to do.
But I don't think I could...

B*B