New Pope!

[Old Witch]

Smoke is white...bells are ringing............

[Aowyn]

I am gonna laugh my butt off if its an american, heck I will laugh my butt off if its someone that the papers dont have a front page article ready for. The Rome papers have 60 possible front pages ready to go.

[Jenne]

The curtain keeps moving, and the crowds are going NUTS! It'd be a cool thing to be in Italy right now--I bet nothing but parties and excitement are all around!

We'll find out who it is soon! They're probably getting the new guy all gussied up!

[evilslinkycat]

Yep most likely. I work at a Catholic University so everyone in the office is all excited. I must admit, it is all very interesting! :cool:

[Sleet]

They have an "All sins on the house" policy for 24 hours to celebrate the new pope's election, right?

Right?

Well, they should.

[Old Witch]

They have an "All sins on the house" policy for 24 hours to celebrate the new pope's election, right?

Right?

Well, they should.


I'm sure they have all things covered..... :lol:

[Sowelu]

is that??? No...it can't be...is that....Mol behind those white sheer curtains????:holycow:

[Jenne]

:rotfl:

[Spera]

is that??? No...it can't be...is that....Mol behind those white sheer curtains????:holycow:

That is wonderful!!!!

[Jenne]

Well, the Germans should be happy! Ratzinger...we'll be seeing a lot about him on the news later...

[evilslinkycat]

Yeppers

[Jenne]

Or, rather, Pope Benedict the XVI...

[Ben Trismegistus]

It's Ratzinger. So much for progressive Catholicism.

[Spera]

:(

[Old Witch]

Yep! Pope Benedict XVI...they picked a doozy there......Should set Catholicism back a couple hundred years............

They could've done a whole lot better..............

[Chesna]

It's Ratzinger. So much for progressive Catholicism.

So true..sooo true!!

[Sleet]

It's Ratzinger. So much for progressive Catholicism.

Blech. My wife is NOT happy, and neither am I for my two kids' sakes.

That UU fellowship is looking better.

[evilslinkycat]

:wtf: :foh:

[DragonsChest]

Women will be forced back into the dark ages, I fear. Why him? Why someone so regressive?

[DVCara]

i was excited about them considering an African Cardinal, and some South American canidates....but the Catholic church has dissapointed me yet again with an old white guy....i thought they needed some color in the Vatican, i step forward...*goes back to completely ignoring the Catholi church once again*

[Aowyn]

Boy alot of jumping to conclusions based off of his name....no matter what name he picked however I guess it would be the same. It seems really sad to me that the man hasn't even done anything yet and there are those ready to get a rope.

[Sleet]

Boy alot of jumping to conclusions based off of his name....no matter what name he picked however I guess it would be the same. It seems really sad to me that the man hasn't even done anything yet and there are those ready to get a rope.

It's based on what he's said in the recent past. He's very conservative, and many were hoping for a pope with more sympathy for the progressives within the church.

[DragonsChest]

Not really jumping to conclusions. Going off quite a lot of his past history and how he has always said the church needed to get back to it's "roots". He is known for not being progressive and for decrying the present movement of the church, especially concernign women. :woah:

[Aowyn]

The last pope who held the name Benedict was noted as being a great mediator. Heck he was the guy that made Joan of Arc a saint. Check it out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XV. Unfortunately for him he was always seen as favoring the other side of any argument from each side.
I am just saying give the guy a chance, lots of people say things and change their minds later. It seems to me by his name choice that he wants to try to bring his people together.

[DVCara]

what they said...and i for one what no rope for the man....just to happily ignore him...:)

[bluecat]

He is reported to be a hard-line traditionalist. We shall see what happens now. Another schism in the Catholic Church?

Blue

[Sleet]

I am just saying give the guy a chance, lots of people say things and change their minds later. It seems to me by his name choice that he wants to try to bring his people together.

Fair enough. I am trying (mostly failing, but hey) to stay positive about it.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Women will be forced back into the dark ages, I fear. Why him? Why someone so regressive?
Because all but three of the cardinals in the conclave were appointed by John Paul II, who was himself an unrepentant conservative.

[Sleet]

He is reported to be a hard-line traditionalist. We shall see what happens now. Another schism in the Catholic Church?


It's remote but not impossible.

[Sowelu]

Does this mean Mol is not our new Pope?:fpatricks what about....vice-pope?

no?

[Dawa Lhamo]

It's remote but not impossible. True... Even if lots of Catholics end up leaving the Church, they'll most likely become Anglicans or some other denomination rather than a true schizm...

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[WandererInGray]

The last pope who held the name Benedict was noted as being a great mediator. Heck he was the guy that made Joan of Arc a saint. Check it out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XV. Unfortunately for him he was always seen as favoring the other side of any argument from each side.
I am just saying give the guy a chance, lots of people say things and change their minds later. It seems to me by his name choice that he wants to try to bring his people together.
I'd noticed that too, Aowyn. *shrugs* Yeah, you never can tell.

Interesting to note the man is 78. How old was Pope John Paul when they elected him?

[bluecat]

My particular question was aimed towards American Catholics. The Church of England broke under the decree of King Henry VIII; and it was over certain erm ... marital issues ;).

As I said, we shall have to wait and see what happens. Even if there is a break there will continue to be traditionalists who will follow, like sheep.

Blue

[DaNcInG_WiNd]

I vote for Mol...much better choice. :bigblue:




Does this mean Mol is not our new Pope?:fpatricks what about....vice-pope?

no?

[bluecat]

Does this mean Mol is not our new Pope?:fpatricks what about....vice-pope?

no?

There was no green smoke, so I don't think MOL made it, but that's okay

:hailmol: ALL HAIL MOL!


Blue

[StormVixen]

i know its bad to say it but atleast hes old... so hopefully there will be a nicer one after him

[evilslinkycat]

I vote for Mol...much better choice. :bigblue:

I second that!

:fpraise: Mol for pope :fpraise:

[DragonsChest]

It seems to me by his name choice that he wants to try to bring his people together.


I certainly hope you are correct -- I'm not catholic, so it doesn't really affect me directly, but I hope he is going to be a fair and just pope. And you're right - gotta give him the chance to be just that.

[Cinnamon Girl]

Interesting to note the man is 78. How old was Pope John Paul when they elected him?

58, I believe.

[Sowelu]

Interesting to note the man is 78. How old was Pope John Paul when they elected him?
Yeah that got me wondering too!

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well, he was the head of the Inquisition (renamed Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.).... if that's not a bad sign, I don't know what is. ^_^ You *can* give someone a chance while still remaining suspicious or having misgivings... besides, being pessimistic is a good route to happiness... if I'm proven right, well, I'm not disappointed... if I'm proven wrong, well, then I'm pleasantly surprised. ;)

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[AdNoctum]

He's also a member of Opus Dei... hm.

In any case, the guy hasn't even been pope for two hours. Give him a chance.

[LadyTrinity]

did they pick a young pope so it would be awhile before we would have to see another pope passing? :ack:

[Penthesilea]

The man is 78 years old and I know from observation that, while he may be the picture of health right now, his health could go downhill fast. I doubt that the Church would be willing to put up with another sickly pope for years on end. Is this a sop thrown to the ultra conservative wing of the Church? Don't know, time will tell. At least, the Pope can no longer threaten national leaders with excommunication if they don't follow orders. Well, he could -- but I doubt it would do any good. If the widely liked John Paul II couldn't get politicians, especially Western ones, to toe the line, I doubt that Benedict XVI will be able to better.

[LadyTrinity]

The man is 78 years old and I know from observation that, while he may be the picture of health right now, his health could go downhill fast. I doubt that the Church would be willing to put up with another sickly pope for years on end. Is this a sop thrown to the ultra conservative wing of the Church? Don't know, time will tell. At least, the Pope can no longer threaten national leaders with excommunication if they don't follow orders. Well, he could -- but I doubt it would do any good. If the widely liked John Paul II couldn't get politicians, especially Western ones, to toe the line, I doubt that Benedict XVI will be able to better.

78! What!? Why!? Are all popes old?? C'mon now.. they cant possibly see this pope lasting 10 years!!!!!!
:nuhuh:

[bluecat]

There will be the usual flood of false piety and lip service by many world leaders. I am sure the religious right will like this guy because of his leanings towards things like birth control and women's issues. We'll have to see how long this lasts. I wonder if this guy will get out into the world like John Paul II did?

Frankly, I don't like his eyes. There is just something there, I don't know what it is.

Blue

[LadyTrinity]

why was he chosen?

[Paracelsus]

Oh Shit!
Benedict XVI is not the guy that the Catholic Church needs - watch as he completes JP2's job of dragging the church doctrinally back to the 12th century.
I notice someone said that he is a member of Opus Dei, I don't think that is accurate, although he's certainly in sympathy with them, more entertainingly he was, as a youth a member of the Hitler Youth (and yes, I know that he maintains that this was because everyone had to be... but, by their fruits ye shall know them)
The Grand Inquisitor has got his reward, and no doubt will continue his work in rooting out heresy - the man who has suppressed some of the greatest theologians of the last century can carry on.

Whatever happened to the spirit of collegiality in Vatican 2, or the recognition and celebration of the vernacular traditions, greater leadership for women, etc.etc.

[LadyTrinity]

Can we have the old pope back??? I'll get the shovels! :huh:

[Dawa Lhamo]

Frankly, I don't like his eyes. There is just something there, I don't know what it is.

Bluelol... not to be offensive, but this Italian-born guy in my New Testament class said that Ratzinger just *looks* like the devil-incarnate. ^_^ I'm just passing it along...

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Dawa Lhamo]

I notice someone said that he is a member of Opus Dei, I don't think that is accurate, although he's certainly in sympathy with them, more entertainingly he was, as a youth a member of the Hitler Youth (and yes, I know that he maintains that this was because everyone had to be... but, by their fruits ye shall know them) And was a part of the German military until he deserted. Wikipedia says:
In 1943, at the age of 16 he was, along with the rest of his class, drafted into the Flak or anti-aircraft corps, responsible for the guarding of a BMW plant outside Munich. He was then sent for basic infantry training and was posted to Hungary, where he worked setting up anti-tank defences until he deserted in April 1944 (an offence punishable by death). In 1945 he was briefly held in an Allied POW camp. True, he did desert... Still kinda scary, though...

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[LadyTrinity]

http://www.eclesiales.org/fotos/ratzinger.jpg

[HorseCrow]

I find it hard to give him a chance, knowing he is anti-kontraceptives, anti-gay marriage/relationship and anti-women when it comes to religious life and performance.
I'll try, but it will be hard.

[Sleet]

why was he chosen?

Most elector cardinals apparently think he's the best thing for the church. I'm sure others disagree, but they were outvoted.

[equinox2]

Sleet wrote (on another thread):

It's Josef Ratzinger. Equinox called it!

Thanks Sleet! You called it too:

Sleet wrote:

My choice would be Martini. My guess is Ratzinger, or else some darkhorse we haven't much about.

And also:
DraoinanDuanaire wrote:

I'm betting Ratzinger. Arinze is my next choice.


9-2-2 wrote:

…. if Ratzinger gets it, I'm boarding up my windows. That guy is a freakjob...

DragonsChest wrote:

Women will be forced back into the dark ages, I fear. Why him? Why someone so regressive?
__________________


He is very conservative (some would consider him “fundamentalist”, if that term can be used for a Catholic.)


Aowyn wrote:

I am just saying give the guy a chance, lots of people say things and change their minds later. It seems to me by his name choice that he wants to try to bring his people together.

Of course, only a very foolish fundamentalist wouldn't try to get people to join him, to be friendly when possible.....

Even if it hadn’t been Ratzinger (Ratzinger wrote letter instructing US priests to deny communion to politicians who protected abortion rights), it would probably have been someone as conservative. I think it reflects trends that have been going on for decades. Taking a longer time view makes little day to day things like this seem less disruptive. I talk about some of those trends here, in post #18:


http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=90191&page=2&pp=10



In short, the trend for nearly 100 years has been the polarization of Christianity, where most Christians become fundamentalist, while those that don’t become fundamentalist leave Christianity all together (that’s why Paganism is growing – we are those former Christians). Below is some stuff cut from this thread:

http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=73795&page=2 (Post #17)

The fact that major factors like Abu Graib, the debacle in Iraq, the economy, the massive assault on our environment, and 2 ½ lost debates didn’t sink Bush is amazing – but reflect social trends that have been going on for 30 years.

Since 1970, all the data has shown that the fundamentalist Christian churchs have been growing, and the moderate Christian Churches have been shrinking. This is simply catching up to world trends, where nearly all Catholics, Protestants, and other Christians worldwide are fundamentalist (that’s why the American Episcopal church is in such hot water for the gay bishop – the rest of the worldwide Anglicans are fundamentalist). In America, nearly all Christians will soon either be fundamentalist or will have left Christianity all together (This is because the Bible supports fundamentalism).

I meant that 40% of the US are fundamentalist Christians, not that all Christians were fundamentalist. Let’s look at the statistics-

In 1990 it was found about 86% of the US was Christian. By 2001 this had dropped to 76%. Of that 76%, a slight majority are fundamentalist (40% of all Americans, or 40/76 = around 53% of Christians. Not a minority, but a rapidly growing majority). Data was from an Aris study, and other sources I can list. Some are here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm . Another way of measuring fundamentalists is that 55% of Americans agree that “every word of the Bible is literally true” (from Princeton Survey Research Associates, n= 1,009 adults, Dec. 3, 2004.). That gives 55/76 = over 70 of Christians are fundamentalist. So take your pick.

Studies by various groups have all shown again and again that since 1970, moderate Christianity has been withering. I think this is because the fundamentalists challenge them to support their views using the Bible, and when they try to, they realize that the Bible supports fundamentalism (I’ve read it cover to cover, and I agree with the fundamentalists on this point). So, they are faced with a choice – uphold the Bible and become fundamentalist, or leave Christianity all together. So the moderate Christians bleed members on both sides, explaining why we concurrently see “no religion” rising, fundamentalism rising, and moderate Christianity shrinking. It also explains why fundamentalist power has been growing over this entire time, even though the number of Christians has been shrinking. I see no reason to expect that this polarization of Christianity will reverse what it has been doing for decades. The attached graph is from “the first measured century”, by Caplow.


There are literally millions of moderate and liberal Christians (such as John Kerry). I don’t deny their existence. I’m just pointing out that though they ruled the country in the 70’s, their influence and members are disappearing by the day now. As this continues, "Christian" and "fundamentalist" become closer and closer to meaning the same thing. At the same time, we always need to remember that people are different, and there will probably always be some liberal Christians left (and of course all PEOPLE deserve respect, no matter who they are).

******************** end of excerpt ***********************

I think it is up to those of us who have open, inclusive religions to offer a healthy and fulfilling spirituality for the millions of seekers that out there. That’s part of why I’m involved with Unitarian Universalism.

As for long term trends, I expect the continuing polarization of Christianity (and ongoing shrinking of liberal Christianity) will continue to help non-Christian religions grow rapidly in the US (just look at that same ARIS study linked to above – Wicca, Buddhism, Hinduism, “No Religion”, and Paganism are all growing rapidly).

As that happens, people will have real choices out there, each with the structure (churches, Sunday school, rituals, hierarchy, community, etc.) that is needed for any religion to be successful. I’m optimistic that after a rough time, this will lead to a truly pluralistic US. It’ll be nice.

It could go wrong, and the US could become a Fundamentalist Theocracy. For instance, 32% of Americans already want a Constitutional Amendment that specifically states that America is a Christian Nation, according to a Barna poll reported in August of 2004. http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=18889 I think this is most likely if the millions of us who wouldn’t like that continue to pretend that “most Christians are tolerant”, but I think events like the new Pope (and plenty of future events) will prevent that.

Anyway – just my best guesses, which might be wrong.

P. S. Is it just me, or does he kinda look like Emperor Palpatine (see post # 58 for pictures)??

May you always love the path you are on-

[Caffiend]

Well, Pope John Paul II was the youngest Pope elected. Rumor was there were opting for a much older pope to avoid having someone in the papacy as long as JP II.

[sarabethv]

They have an "All sins on the house" policy for 24 hours to celebrate the new pope's election, right?

Right?

Well, they should.

Catholics have that every week. They go to confession on Saturday and their sins are forgiven so that they are clean for communion on Sunday. So Catholics stay home and watch t.v. on Saturday night, but Friday nights can be a lot of fun.

The preceding was not intended as a slam to any who are Catholic. I was raised Roman Catholic.

[equinox2]

Anyway – just my best guesses, which might be wrong.

P. S. Is it just me, or does he kinda look like Emperor Palpatine??

Concerned I am. Clouded the future is.


(attached Pictures)

[Sleet]

Catholics have that every week. They go to confession on Saturday and their sins are forgiven so that they are clean for communion on Sunday. So Catholics stay home and watch t.v. on Saturday night, but Friday nights can be a lot of fun.

Well, yes. It's been a long time, though, since most Catholics regularly went to confession.


The preceding was not intended as a slam to any who are Catholic. I was raised Roman Catholic.

Me too! My wife still is, as are our two children. *glances at Pope Benedict XVI* For now.

[Rev R]

Yee Haw get out the kerosene we gonna have us a burnin'

Sheesh.

[Sleet]

Concerned I am. Clouded the future is.

If he takes a whiny young priest under his wing, we all better watch out.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I notice someone said that he is a member of Opus Dei, I don't think that is accurate,
Actually, NPR this morning reported that Ratzinger was a member of Opus Dei also. Not sure of the accuracy, but I've heard it from a number of sources.

[SilentDreams]

Is it me or was this very fast? Most people predicted a week minimum.

Anyways I'm glad we've got this over and now we can start to move on from this whole thing. I just hope I can like this pope.

[equinox2]

Sleet wrote:


If he takes a whiny young priest under his wing, we all better watch out.

and


winter is coming.....


:holycow: :hairraise :hairraise :foh:


HHHoooooooo........ Perrrrrrrrrrr..............



HHHoooooooo........ Perrrrrrrrrrr..............



HHHoooooooo........ Perrrrrrrrrrr..............


(OK, if anyone is confused, go see the pictures on Post # 58.....)


Help us Dali Lama, you're our only hope......

[Aowyn]

why was he chosen?
He was chosen because he was an advisor of John Paul II and so the thinking is he will continue with things that he started but didn't finish. Also he is old and therefore will probobly only last a few years giving them time to come up with another one. or at least thats what I have been hearing from some catholics I know.

[SilverClaw]

Wow just saw a picture of him on cbc.ca hmmm glad it is done.:) And gee it happend on my daughters birthday to .

[Saggitario]

I looked some more stuff up on the Prophecies of Malachy, the guy that predicted all of the popes until the end of the Church (or the end of the world, as some beleive.)
The next pope after John Paul would be called Gloria Olivae, or 'The Glory of the Olive'. Here is a passage from a 1973 text on this subject.


The Order of St. Benedict has claimed by tradition that this pope will come from within the Order. St. Benedict himself has prophecied that before the end of the world comes about, his Order will triumphantly lead the Catholic Church in its fight against evil. The Order of St. Benedict is also known as the Olivetans, which may well account for another interpretation of the prophecy.

Interesting, to say the least.

[Catiana]

I figured that's who they would chose, but I am surprised that they chose someone so old. The Pope before JP II - John Paul I was Pope for 33 days before he died, I think he was around that age too, but I'm not sure. They may be doing the whole thing over again in a few months, but hopefully this guy will make it a few years at least.

[Sleet]

Interesting, to say the least.

Is Ratzinger OSB (a Benedictine monk)?

[Saggitario]

Im not sure if he is actually part of the order, but he is very strongly influenced by them, at least. And the choice of the name is interesting.

[Sleet]

Im not sure if he is actually part of the order, but he is very strongly influenced by them, at least.

True, but as the author of one of the first Christian monastic rules, Benedict has been very influential over western Christianity in general.


And the choice of the name is interesting.

Also true.

[Zibblsnrt]

And was a part of the German military until he deserted. Wikipedia says: True, he did desert... Still kinda scary, though...

That's actually the complaint about the new pope which I find the least relevant. Everyone was part of the German military during the war, provided they were German and had a Y chromosome. The Hitler Youth, which Ratzinger entered the military through, was a mandatory organization for any minors in Germany - if you refused to participate, Bad Things would happen to you. Something approximating one hundred percent of Germans who were in their teens at that time were in either that or the Wehrmacht. And, like you mentioned, he did bolt after Hitler died (or even shortly before, I don't recall).

It sucks in hindsight, yes, but that's about the only way it does. I'm not going to hold someone's being conscripted six decades ago at the age of fourteen against him. There's far more recent, far more relevant complaints to make against him.

On the other hand, Pope Benedict XVI has only existed for a few hours so far, and hasn't even been officially installed. I'll have to see how he governs as pontiff before really making up my mind on him.

[djmixon]

is that??? No...it can't be...is that....Mol behind those white sheer curtains????:holycow:


Well, there goes the neighborhood. . .

[Illuminatus]

Apparently, this new pope is just like the old one, except without all of those annoying redeeming qualities like connection to the youth, reaching out to many diverse kinds of people, natural warmth and charisma and all the rest. Yes, this guy is a real winner, I can't think of anyone else I would want for my symbol of eclesiastical authoritarian anacronism.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Is Ratzinger OSB (a Benedictine monk)?Nope, not that I've heard... but some have already said that since he took the name Benedict, perhaps that's how it's fulfilled? Wikipedia says:
The next motto is Gloria Olivae, the glory of the olive. Prior to the papal conclave, this motto led to speculation that the next pontiff would be from the Order of Saint Benedict, whose symbols include the olive branch. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, selected in April 2005, is not a Benedictine, but did pick Benedict XVI as his papal name, which might be regarded as a fulfillment of this prophecy.

Alternatively, less specific interpreters have predicted that the next pope will promote world peace (as in an olive branch). Pope Benedict XVI has chosen "Pax" (peace) as his papal motto. The self-proclaimed Pope Clemente Domínguez y Gómez of the Palmarian Catholic Church claimed that he was the glory of the olive. Hmmm...

[Aowyn]

Alright I can't take it anymore why do any of us care who the heck the pope is anyway? I mean I have never heard a group of christians sitting around griping about who is in charge of what pagan organization save for those that have made it their holy mission to save all the non Xtians from themselves is that the group of people that we wish to become comparable to?

[Dawa Lhamo]

It sucks in hindsight, yes, but that's about the only way it does. I'm not going to hold someone's being conscripted six decades ago at the age of fourteen against him. There's far more recent, far more relevant complaints to make against him.

On the other hand, Pope Benedict XVI has only existed for a few hours so far, and hasn't even been officially installed. I'll have to see how he governs as pontiff before really making up my mind on him.Alright, but I can still be suspicious... I never ever said my mind was made up. If you can point that out to me, please do so and I'll rectify the typo...

I said it is something to perhaps worry about.... I dunno about you, but I don't assume that every German was conscripted against their will.... (neither do I believe that every German was gung-ho about Nazis).... It's something to be cautious about, and I'm not afraid to say that...

I wasn't accusing him, I just said it was kinda scary... You know, how the unknown is kinda scary? Not that OMG, He was a NAZI and evil and so scary.... Perhaps I should have elucidated that for you all...

One can make statements and observations without declaring final judgement, and if you were referring to me personally, then you misinterpreted my post completely... I'm not going to disregard the facts of his past, though, since that's all I have to go on... I haven't reified anything here, though...

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Akhkharu Asgard]

The "Black Pope" wasn't chosen. So according to Nostradamus, we are safe from the end of the world!

:spinner:

[DaNcInG_WiNd]

Damn, that resemblance is freaky....go with the force on this one I say.:hrmm:


Concerned I am. Clouded the future is.


(attached Pictures)

[Dawa Lhamo]

Alright I can't take it anymore why do any of us care who the heck the pope is anyway? I mean I have never heard a group of christians sitting around griping about who is in charge of what pagan organization save for those that have made it their holy mission to save all the non Xtians from themselves is that the group of people that we wish to become comparable to? Ummmm... how many pagans are there? And how many catholics are there? I don't know about you, but I don't think many heads of state listen to many pagan leaders, whereas heads of state DO listen to what the Pope says and consider it when they make decisions.... Not that they worship him or anything, but practically, they don't want to p*** off their constituency... ^_^ And personally, if catholics want to complain about pagan elders, then who am I to stop them?

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Aowyn]

The "Black Pope" wasn't chosen. So according to Nostradamus, we are safe from the end of the world!

:spinner:
black can mean alot of things not just skin lol your being awfully literal

[Akhkharu Asgard]

black can mean alot of things not just skin lol your being awfully literal

Yeah I know, that's just one form of Nostradamus' extreme vagueness. I just like scaring friends with apocolyptic prophesies. I would have had a good time if the Nigerian guy got in.

[Isis-Rayne]

I don't know enough about the Papacy to know anything about this man in order to make a judgement about how he will lead the Catholic Church. And I wonder how many of you know so much about him, being Pagans.

I also wonder why the new Pope is being so ridiculed without doing a single thing as Pope.

[Aowyn]

Ummmm... how many pagans are there? And how many catholics are there? I don't know about you, but I don't think many heads of state listen to many pagan leaders, whereas heads of state DO listen to what the Pope says and consider it when they make decisions.... Not that they worship him or anything, but practically, they don't want to p*** off their constituency... ^_^ And personally, if catholics want to complain about pagan elders, then who am I to stop them?

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo
My comment is in regards to the fact that people in this community are supposed to be tolerant of other religions. I'm just saying that we become more like those intolerant people the more we bash on this guy who hasn't actually done anything yet simply because we think that he is going to do things we won't like.

I beleive you are overestimating the actual power held by the pope, yeah they go have audiences with him but they don't do things just because the pope tells them to. As for pi***** off constituency well most of the time from what I have seen leaders aren't too concerned about pi***** off the Catholics, some actually seem to wear it as a badge of honor.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I don't know enough about the Papacy to know anything about this man in order to make a judgement about how he will lead the Catholic Church. And I wonder how many of you know so much about him, being Pagans.

I also wonder why the new Pope is being so ridiculed without doing a single thing as Pope. Simply put, it affects my friends, and it affects me, though likely indirectly... I am a Religious Studies student and one of my two foci is Christianity, so this is an interesting time even for academic reasons. Since I study religions, I feel I should learn as much as I can about all of them... As one of my classmates said today, "if you've only studied one religion, you've studied no religion"... meaning that religion must be seen in context with culture, the world, and other religions... to ignore them is to ignore some of the key issues and reasons behind why some people believe certain things...

Alright, passing on the devil-incarnate comment may have been a bit harsh, but I don't believe I've ridiculed him, and as far as I've seen, people have only brought up his stance on issues and things he's done or written in the past that made them nervous or hesitant... I really haven't seen any ridiculing. As for the Star Wars thing, he honestly does look like Palpatine (or however you spell it) and the same kind of comment would be made about anyone who was suddenly plastered on TV that looked so similar (particularly to a TV/Movie villian)... I still don't think any ridiculing was done...

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[bluecat]

My comment is in regards to the fact that people in this community are supposed to be tolerant of other religions. I'm just saying that we become more like those intolerant people the more we bash on this guy who hasn't actually done anything yet simply because we think that he is going to do things we won't like.

I beleive you are overestimating the actual power held by the pope, yeah they go have audiences with him but they don't do things just because the pope tells them to. As for pissing off constituency well most of the time from what I have seen leaders aren't too concerned about pi**ing off the Catholics, some actually seem to wear it as a badge of honor.

The issue to me is how this Pope will effect the world. He is a hard liner and tends to polarize people. He has a very hard record as far as certain issues go and even went as far as saying politicians who supported birth control or abortion should be refused communion.

It's not about the Catholic Church, it's all about this particular Pope. There is some discomfort about where he will take the church. Certain politicians may take his leadership as a license to do certain things and pass certain laws. We already have enough trouble with the far right, we don't need any more. BTW, I don't give a rats rear about all of the WWI Biz with him, he basically had no choice in the matter.

Blue

[Dawa Lhamo]

My comment is in regards to the fact that people in this community are supposed to be tolerant of other religions. I'm just saying that we become more like those intolerant people the more we bash on this guy who hasn't actually done anything yet simply because we think that he is going to do things we won't like. Yet precedent is quite powerful...
I beleive you are overestimating the actual power held by the pope, yeah they go have audiences with him but they don't do things just because the pope tells them to. As for pi***** off constituency well most of the time from what I have seen leaders aren't too concerned about pi***** off the Catholics, some actually seem to wear it as a badge of honor.Perhaps, but I wasn't trying to say that politicians do what he says necessarily, but that they consider what he says and it can be a factor in decisions that they make... Consider this, before Kennedy, no American president was willing to help India with her over-population problem because they were too concerned about Catholic backlash... Kennedy, a Catholic himself, could go in and work out aid to India... The same kind of thing... when certain issues come up, the Pope's influence with the Catholic community can be a strong factor in swaying a head of state's decision.... And seriously, if they *do* wear it as a badge of honor, then they are still reacting to the Pope's influence, are they not? Complying or Rejecting, if they consider what the Pope says, then that's power.... What pagan leader has that kind of power?

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Zibblsnrt]

Alright I can't take it anymore why do any of us care who the heck the pope is anyway? I mean I have never heard a group of christians sitting around griping about who is in charge of what pagan organization

You would if there was a leader of a pagan organization which could claim more than a billion followers.

[Aowyn]

none Dawa cause we are disorganized and dont accept leadership from what i have seen.
therefore we dont get the clout lol

[Aowyn]

You would if there was a leader of a pagan organization which could claim more than a billion followers.
so that makes it ok to be intolerant ? its ok to pass judgement cause the christians would do it to us?

[equinox2]

Blue wrote:


I don't give a rats rear about all of the WWI Biz with him......

OK, but do you give a Rat's Zinger?

(and is it OK to say "Zinger" in public, even if it is referring to a Rat's Zinger?)

:bigblue:

[Valnorran]

Let's see... the pope is the leader of the Catholic church. No female priests/no birth control/no abortion/no homosexuals has been the church's stance for pretty much forever, so why are we surprised to see the pope espousing these ideas? What did we expect? Why did we think this was going to change? Did we honestly expect the most powerful Christian entity in the world to alter its fundamental views to accomodate a bunch of Pagans?

[sarcasm] My god, next he'll be venerating the saints and the Blessed Mother![end sarcasm]

I do believe we're being a wee bit paranoid about this. Having spent most of my life surrounded by Catholics, I've never seen one approach life with the attitude of "What would the pope want me to do?" It's been my observation that the pope has little if any influence over their daily lives. I really don't think there will be any schisms or reformations or revolutions or inquisitions or endtime prophecies fullfilled. I think the church will keep humming along pretty much like it has been. Disappointing though it may be, I don't see us being victims in this.

[Bix]

Um...excuse my ignorance, but what stand is this new Pope taking? I've heard he's conservative, but conservative about what?

[Zibblsnrt]

so that makes it ok to be intolerant ? its ok to pass judgement cause the christians would do it to us?

No, but it makes it understandable. There are just as many frothing bigots in pagan communities as there are in Christian ones; like it or not both groups do have a lot of similarities on that ground.

Though maybe I misparsed what you had originally said. I read it as your saying that pagans don't need to, or even shouldn't, pay any notice to papal elections. That was a point I've been taking issue with in various places lately - people who think that only Catholics should pay attention to what's going on in the Vatican because it doesn't affect the rest of us. That's simply an incorrect view, as anyone living in the 1980s could see quite clearly.

Whenever there is a leadership in an organization with hundreds of millions of members, citizens or adherents, I sit up and take notice. I think other people should too; whether subtly or not these things Affect You.

[Old Witch]

My comment is in regards to the fact that people in this community are supposed to be tolerant of other religions. I'm just saying that we become more like those intolerant people the more we bash on this guy who hasn't actually done anything yet simply because we think that he is going to do things we won't like.

I beleive you are overestimating the actual power held by the pope, yeah they go have audiences with him but they don't do things just because the pope tells them to. As for pi***** off constituency well most of the time from what I have seen leaders aren't too concerned about pi***** off the Catholics, some actually seem to wear it as a badge of honor.


Bashing...Who's bashing? We are having an intelligent discussion speculating on what this man is going to be about....And yes, He is going to have a large amount of influence in the political and religious world...Eventually, it will filter down to us Pagans....

[Dawa Lhamo]

none Dawa cause we are disorganized and dont accept leadership from what i have seen.
therefore we dont get the clout lol Right. ^_^ lol. But just to clarify my own position, I pay attention and feel justified worrying over anyone, including the Pope, who has that kind of power. ^_^ If the next Dalai Lama were to come out of Red China and be the Chinese gov't's hand-picked kid, then I'd be worried the same way... (though admittedly the Pope does seem to have power more directly to average American life) And, being a Buddhist who's taken refuge in a Tibetan tradition, I would not be offended if (even if he wasn't China's hand-picked successor) any Catholics were to critique a new Dalai Lama... They have as much right to critique an influential leader as anyone does... ^_^ And just because Pagans don't have leaders with that much power doesn't mean they automatically lose the right to critique powerful people... ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[soilsigh aingeal]

Disclaimer: I use the MW@Work setting so it says "people" instead of "Pagan" in the quotes


Alright I can't take it anymore why do any of us care who the heck the pope is anyway? I mean I have never heard a group of christians sitting around griping about who is in charge of what People organization save for those that have made it their holy mission to save all the non Xtians from themselves is that the group of people that we wish to become comparable to?

Let's see... the pope is the leader of the Catholic church. No female priests/no birth control/no abortion/no homosexuals has been the church's stance for pretty much forever, so why are we surprised to see the pope espousing these ideas? What did we expect? Why did we think this was going to change? Did we honestly expect the most powerful Christian entity in the world to alter its fundamental views to accomodate a bunch of Peoples?

[sarcasm] My god, next he'll be venerating the saints and the Blessed Mother![end sarcasm]

I do believe we're being a wee bit paranoid about this. Having spent most of my life surrounded by Catholics, I've never seen one approach life with the attitude of "What would the pope want me to do?" It's been my observation that the pope has little if any influence over their daily lives. I really don't think there will be any schisms or reformations or revolutions or inquisitions or endtime prophecies fullfilled. I think the church will keep humming along pretty much like it has been. Disappointing though it may be, I don't see us being victims in this. I agree with both of you.


Ummmm... how many Peoples are there? And how many catholics are there? I don't know about you, but I don't think many heads of state listen to many People leaders, whereas heads of state DO listen to what the Pope says and consider it when they make decisions.... Not that they worship him or anything, but practically, they don't want to p*** off their constituency... ^_^ And personally, if catholics want to complain about People elders, then who am I to stop them?
I still don't get it. With or without the the pagan part. My entire family is Christian, but they're not Catholic. I have never heard any of them complain about who's going to be Pope this time around. I have never heard any of them talk about the pope, period, in my whole life, even from any of my friends who are Christian but not catholic. Litterally, the only reason I knew there was a pope was because of friends (the catholic ones) and the media. I just don't get it. The whole "women" issue, is old. That's nothing new, same for gay marriage. So what, people are going to go to church on sundays now and talk about how bad it is to have sex for fun and have abortions? So what if this guy wrote letters to preists telling them to ignore politicians who are pro-choice. If they stand that firmly in their religious beliefs (which I actually hope they do, since that's what they've chosen to do for the rest of their lives) than they'd do it anyway. People still have their own minds regardless of their religious beliefs. I can't understand why it's such a "bad" thing. Same thing about JP2's book. Was anyone actually surprised that he's against abortion and gay marriage? It wouldn't surprise me if there are still lots of people who are not Christians who do not support abortion and gay marriage. And I'm sure that there are a bunch of Christians who are pro-choice and who are on the side of gay marriage... hell, I know a few Christians who are gay. I'm sorry, I just don't get what the big deal is.

I've heard from one person that this new pope was one of JP's mentors... I'm not sure how accurate that is, but if it is, than why would that be a bad thing? If this is someone that JP2 looked up to, than I can't really see how it's so bad since JP2 was so great.

[Valnorran]

I still don't get it. With or without the the pagan part. My entire family is Christian, but they're not Catholic. I have never heard any of them complain about who's going to be Pope this time around. I have never heard any of them talk about the pope, period, in my whole life, even from any of my friends who are Christian but not catholic.
I can almost say the same, and most Christians where I live (including my wife and in-laws) are Catholic. Contrary to popular belief, they just don't spend every waking moment thinking about the pope. In fact, very, very little of their daily lives have anything to do with the pope. I remember one conversation we were having about Catholic policies with one of my mother's friends. This woman was acadian (Catholic) and married an Italian. It doesn't get much more Catholic than that. When the topic of the church's stance on birth control came up, this woman just gave a skeptical snort and said, "The pope doesn't pay my bills." I speak from personal experience when I say most rank and file Catholics aren't mindless followers of the pope.

If they stand that firmly in their religious beliefs (which I actually hope they do, since that's what they've chosen to do for the rest of their lives) than they'd do it anyway.
That's another thing that gets me. We Pagans always seem to expect the world to respect our beliefs and let us practice them, then we turn around and want to deny the same rights to others. We admire any Pagan who sticks to his religious convictions, yet we get pretty angry when a Christian does the same.

[Sleet]

Alright I can't take it anymore why do any of us care who the heck the pope is anyway?

Well, my wife and children are Catholic, so I do have a vague interest in who their nominal spiritual leader will be. (I say "nominal" because, as Val points out, it's not as if the Pope has a great deal of say day-to-day over what happens to Catholics.)

However, if I can disagree with Valnorran about something, I do think that, while not surprising, it's significant that the man elected not only toes the line about issues like female clergy and birth control, but is a staunch supporter of them, to the point of being the philosophical architect of many of the church's modern arguments against such things.

There were other options, and those were bypassed. That is significant.

[Aowyn]

Alright so the reason people are taking notice is because he leads so many people...where are the threads about Mullahs? I know there is more than one but there are a handful that hold sway comparable to the pope in the Muslim world which is ever expanding. The lack of threads on them make me think this is more about not liking what the catholics beleive, and therefore disliking their leader. As Valnorran stated their veiws aren't new or at all suprising.

[Hærfest Leah]

I didn't watch to find out because I personally could care less who they elected, so I hear he's German, so am I. Thats about it & I don't expect his decisions to affect my life ever.

[Valnorran]

Alright so the reason people are taking notice is because he leads so many people...where are the threads about Mullahs?
Ah, but that would be racist, don't you know?

[Sleet]

Alright so the reason people are taking notice is because he leads so many people...where are the threads about Mullahs?

Most of the posters on this board live in places whose Catholic population is far higher than its Muslim population.

[Aowyn]

Most of the posters on this board live in places whose Catholic population is far higher than its Muslim population.
I have no way of knowing how accurate your statement is I do know however in most large cities that the muslim population is growing far faster than the catholics pop is.

Also the numbers of catholics in the United States I think is probobly far less than alot of people think. Remember much of the US was settled by people running away from religious opression. The only 2 states that have a high enough catholic concentration for it to really matter as far as I know are Louisiana and Maryland, although I imagine that California probobly would have a good showing if I looked into it more.

[bluecat]

Also the numbers of catholics in the United States I think is probobly far less than alot of people think. Remember much of the US was settled by people running away from religious opression. The only 2 states that have a high enough catholic concentration for it to really matter as far as I know are Louisiana and Maryland, although I imagine that California probobly would have a good showing if I looked into it more.

I see, you have never been to or heard of New Mexico. We have a very high Catholic population; not necessarily in the eastern part of the state, but the northern and western parts are very strong.

When I spoke of my opinions on this I was talking from a knowledge base about the new Pope and his policies. I also believe that his policies and stance will overflow into other areas. While he may or may not be political, there are many who will gladly take advantage of his strong stance on many positions. I hope I am wrong, but I seriously doubt it. This has been a very big deal in the news from Albuquerque (almost all TV in NM is controlled or owned by 3 Albuquerque stations.). We have Nuns out here who are giving communion because there is a shortage of priests. There is also a strong feeling that women are second class citizens in the Catholic Church. Being an EX-Mormon I KNOW they are second class in that church and it is another example of male dominated religion. Anthropology of Religion was my specialty before I became ill and had to stop working.

I admire those of you who are optimistic, but I ask you to not let your optimism and personal views to cloud your vision. The Catholic Pope is a big deal, a very big deal in the western world, as a Mullah would be in the Middle East and Islamic cultural world. I recognize that Islam is growing very fast in the world. But people need to undestand that the Muslims have diffierent factions and denominations just as Christians do, so let's not generalize about this.

The Pope also announced that his reign would be short because he has a "delicate constitution."

I am very interested in what he will do about the whole sex abuse thing and women and priests. As I have said before, we shall see.

Blue

[Valnorran]

The Catholic Pope is a big deal, a very big deal in the western world, as a Mullah would be in the Middle East and Islamic cultural world.
One huge difference is that the pope is not also the leader of a country, whereas mullahs often are.

[Zibblsnrt]

Alright so the reason people are taking notice is because he leads so many people...where are the threads about Mullahs? I know there is more than one but there are a handful that hold sway comparable to the pope in the Muslim world which is ever expanding.

Could you name some of them? I can think of some who hold considerable influence over millions or occaisionally tens of millions of Muslims, but there is no one individual who is revered by the whole religion, or even a majority of it. Khomenei could probably have laid claim to something between fifty and a hundred million; Sadr and Sistani are respected mainly within Iraq, not the entire Muslim world (though Sistani should be, dammit); bin Laden's star has long since fallen... I seriously can't think of a single living Muslim who could claim something close to papal influence, and I can only think of a handful of historical ones.

Unless you want to start talking about restoring the Caliphate, there won't be either; the idea is heresy to them, unlike Catholicism where it's a major tenet. Islam has no leader - nor can it.

[Valnorran]

I have no way of knowing how accurate your statement is I do know however in most large cities that the muslim population is growing far faster than the catholics pop is.

Also the numbers of catholics in the United States I think is probobly far less than alot of people think. Remember much of the US was settled by people running away from religious opression. The only 2 states that have a high enough catholic concentration for it to really matter as far as I know are Louisiana and Maryland, although I imagine that California probobly would have a good showing if I looked into it more.
If you're talking solely the original thirteen colonies, Maryland was the only one. Historically America has had a certain paranoia when it comes to Catholics. That's one reason we didn't have a Catholic president until 1960. People were afraid the pope would end up running the country. Anyone who has actually spent some time around rank and file Catholics knows how silly this is. Traditionally, America has been more Protestant than Catholic, and protestantism has had a much bigger influence on our culture. Most of the original colonies were Protestant. You'll generally find a concentration of Catholics in American populations that are mostly of Italian, Spanish, or French descent.

[Sleet]

I have no way of knowing how accurate your statement is I do know however in most large cities that the muslim population is growing far faster than the catholics pop is.

It's still not nearly as big a number as the Catholics in most Western nations. And most of the posters on this board come from Western nations.


The only 2 states that have a high enough catholic concentration for it to really matter as far as I know are Louisiana and Maryland, although I imagine that California probobly would have a good showing if I looked into it more.

Massachusetts? Pennsylvania? California? Florida? Catholics form a large percentage of the population in all these states.

[equinox2]

Aowyn wrote:


Also the numbers of catholics in the United States I think is probobly far less than alot of people think. ….. The only 2 states that have a high enough catholic concentration for it to really matter as far as I know are Louisiana and Maryland


OK, please, everyone – if you are going to state something, check on the data first. It isn’t hard – a google search can usually get you a range of data sources that can be checked against each other for bias. Just spouting statements without first approaching all your beliefs with a healthy skepticism makes us Pagans look like willfully ignorant people who don’t care about what the truth really is.

The data on Catholics in the US is so common that it’s hard not to trip on it. First of all, there are about 60 million Catholics in the US, that’s about 27% of the population, by far the biggest single religious group. Here is data that shows that this percentage has stayed roughly the same for years:

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#gallup


Next, let’s look at it state by state. Here is some good data, which agree with many other sources, so it probably isn’t biased (even though it comes from Catholic source):


http://www.glenmary.org/grc/RCMS_2000/Catholic%20rankings_tables.pdf

Note tables 6, 4, and 1.

So some states have a lot of Catholics, as high as over 50% of the population. The highest % states are:


RI, MA, NJ, CT, NY, NM, NH, WI, Il, PN

Another observation that matches many other sources of data is that the more fundamentalist a Christian church is, the faster it is growing, while the more moderate, the faster it is shrinking (see table 1). This is happening as everyone realizes that the Bible supports fundamentalism, and so Christianity is increasingly the same as fundamentalism. I wrote a lot of detail on this with links and such back on Post # 55 on page 6 of this thread. The Catholic church knows this too, so of course they are going to become fundamentalist, and have a fundamentalist Pope like Benedict XVI. They can see the data as well as anyone else.

That’s why I’ve been crowing for weeks that the next Pope will be fundamentalist. It’s not a surprise – especially since the WORLDWIDE catholic church is already almost all fundamentalist. It is up to non-Christian (esp. non Abrahamic) religions, like ours, to show that there is an alternative to Fundamentalism. But instead, many of us mollycoddle by saying things like “but most Christians are tolerant” or “all opinions are equally true”. I hope this Pope helps us grow up and form real churches with real organization and real community. It can be very open and inclusive, just look at the UU churches – they have an organization and still are very open and creedless.

Anyway, I should stop. I’m sorry for venting a bit, but when faced with the task ahead of us as religious moderates in an increasingly theocratic United States, I get frustrated with people who don’t bother to check the easily accessible facts, and instead seem to take the Ostrich approach to the growth of Fundamentalist Christianity. Aowyn, I especially need to apologize to you – I don’t mean any ill will, and I’m appreciate your thoughts as we move forward into the future.

May your spirit soar like the eagle-