A curious question: The Celtic afterlife

[Phi]

In my reading, I note that the Celts believed that when life stopped here, it began in the otherworld. I also read that the Irish Celts were reputed to cry when a baby was born for the death in the otherworld, and rejoice at a death for the birth in the otherworld.

Also, that gravegoods might include shields, swords, even something to drink in the otherworld...

Now the question:

If the Celts believed that a baby was born when an adult died, of what use would be beer to a baby? A shield, or a sword? Or many other sundry grave goods, such as a chariot which an infant obviously could not drive? How about the story that Celts agreed to debts that would be paid in the next world? (By an infant???)

Does anyone have additional information on this seeming conundrum?

(For those of you who want references, all of this info is from the sources gathered by Peter Beresford Ellis in The Druids. I'll be happy to give page and chapter if asked.)

[Myrddyn Emrys]

It was really no different than the new Father giving his two day old son a catcher's mit...hopes for the babies future. The beer or mead was for the feast in the Halls of Annwn, in the interim between lives.

[Phi]

It was really no different than the new Father giving his two day old son a catcher's mit...hopes for the babies future. The beer or mead was for the feast in the Halls of Annwn, in the interim between lives.Okay, more about the feast or a source I can go to if you don't have time right now, please?
Here's the part I seemed to be missing!

During said feast, could the recently passed over go back to visit even if it was not Samhain?
Throughout the centuries people have always seen the "ghosts" of loved ones recently passed have they not?

(For example, my uncle, who died last week said he saw my dad who died 2&1/2years ago,
my uncle who died 15 years ago, and my grandmother(20) and grandfather (30). He said this 3 days before he died in the presence of 2 cousins of mine...saying "do you see them? do you see them?" and smiling to beat the band...in spite of having been in an extremis of pain)

But imagine if someone came to you today demanding payment for a loan made in the last otherworld. Do you think they had better memories then? Or was the "loan" that could be repaid in the otherworld, just a face saving way of giving charity that one need not repay?

Sometimes I think that some of the Celts who apparently told some of these things to the Greeks/others were grinning and pulling the leg of the listener...

[teishabee]

I read from Peter Beresford Ellis, that it was the visitors from the otherworld. Such as mermaids or fae. Who would cry at births and such. Not the actual celts.

I didnt interpret this to be an exchange tho. The person would die and be born again to the other world, I think its more a metaphor then to be taken literally?

[Phi]

I read from Peter Beresford Ellis, that it was the visitors from the otherworld. Such as mermaids or fae. Who would cry at births and such. Not the actual celts.

I didnt interpret this to be an exchange tho. The person would die and be born again to the other world, I think its more a metaphor then to be taken literally?Ellis has written quite a few books on the Celts, so maybe the one you have is different than the one I was refering to...
Hey!Thanks, Teishabee! Looking this info up again, and typing it out made it all the clearer to my own mind:


"The basis of the Celtic idea of immortality of the soul was that death was but a changing of place and life went on with all its forms and goods in another world, the world of the dead, the fabulous Otherworld. However when people died in that world their souls were reborn in this..."

Now that I have reread, it seems to be indicating, perhaps, that the soul went as it was to the Otherworld, and came back on the return trip as an infant...???

"Philostratus of Tyana(c.ad 170-249) observed correctly that Celts celebrated birth with mourning for the death in the Otherworld, and regarded death with joy for the birth in the Otherworld."
Ellis, Peter Beresford, A Brief History of the Druids, 2002, pp.176

What do you think?

Edited to add, yes there were said to be spirits who warn of impending deaths that might be fae, such as the bean sidhe, but I was referring to the statement by Philostratus above... :)

[teishabee]

It was celtic myths and legends.

It was a story of a lake nymph bribe. The typical she marries a moral but if he beats her 3 times , she has to leave. She cried at a birth and laughed at a death. Thus getting 2 beatings and the other escapes me.


Now that I have reread, it seems to be indicating, perhaps, that the soul went as it was to the Otherworld, and came back on the return trip as an infant...???
That is what I gathered. Altho that gives a few questions in itself. Maybe that the body is renewed but the soul stays the same age.

Im mostly taking my take on their lives from tales, so they can have been christainised and altered. I would say it was true about celebrating death, we see this today with the tradition of a wake. I just cant imagine people actually mourning a birth of a new child. Technically its a paradox, if they dont see death as end.

[Phi]

It was celtic myths and legends.

It was a story of a lake nymph bribe. The typical she marries a moral but if he beats her 3 times , she has to leave. She cried at a birth and laughed at a death. Thus getting 2 beatings and the other escapes me.


That is what I gathered. Altho that gives a few questions in itself. Maybe that the body is renewed but the soul stays the same age.

Im mostly taking my take on their lives from tales, so they can have been christainised and altered. I would say it was true about celebrating death, we see this today with the tradition of a wake. I just cant imagine people actually mourning a birth of a new child. Technically its a paradox, if they dont see death as end.No doubt, like most of the Celtic ancient practices and beliefs, there's more that we don't know about it than the bits that we do. Also like life after death, period, huh?

Maybe they mourned because the death in the otherworld meant no more past memories of this one of someone still here, no more visitations to relatives ??

On that note, I find it curious that all of my uncle's family that had passed on were there in his vision , except for his youngest brother he did not mention, who died 45 years or so ago rather young in an auto accident. Mayhap he has been reborn already?

The vision story was a happy one for me, because at my Dad's deathbed, I told my young niece that my Dad would be with his Mama and Daddy and his brothers when he passed away, and not to worry so much because he would be alright...he died within a few hours of my saying this. I never was sure if he heard me or not, but had often heard that sometimes the dying need to be told it's okay to go on, before they can let go. I was glad to hear that, apparently, Dad is with them all and my uncle has gone home to them too...I imagine them celebrating being together once more...

Which is as they say, a happy reaction to a death, I suppose; to be happy that they are together there...

[Ladyvi]

well quite frankly the celts throw a party for the departed person still today. be happy for the person that has finished with this life and has passed on to rest. that person no longer has worries of this reality. my mother wants an irish wake. she wants no tears for her when she passes.

[Phi]

well quite frankly the celts throw a party for the departed person still today. be happy for the person that has finished with this life and has passed on to rest. that person no longer has worries of this reality. my mother wants an irish wake. she wants no tears for her when she passes.I know exactly how she feels, yet I would never deny tears to any who want to express them.
It would be hard not to cry at the missing of them, even when you are happy for them...There's a gap left by losing a loved one and tears actually do help in some mysterious way.
So at any wake, I plan to cry while I celebrate the life of the one I loved...

[Ladyvi]

of course.. but sometimes i wonder. even when i shed tears for the departed. is it tears lamenting of me being left behind. or is it truely lamenting for the person leaving. to those that have comforted a great many. those many no longer have that comfort. joy can being sadness. sadness can bring joy if you have learned those lessons.

[Phi]

of course.. but sometimes i wonder. even when i shed tears for the departed. is it tears lamenting of me being left behind. or is it truely lamenting for the person leaving. to those that have comforted a great many. those many no longer have that comfort. joy can being sadness. sadness can bring joy if you have learned those lessons.
OH, I'd definitely be feeling sorry for me!:hahugh: But isn't that what grief is? And that's natural and good to express and bad to hold inside...

[Ladyvi]

sure.. but then we have the capacity to at times speak with those that have passed and be assured that they are happy returning to the otherworld.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

Okay, more about the feast or a source I can go to if you don't have time right now, please?
Here's the part I seemed to be missing!

During said feast, could the recently passed over go back to visit even if it was not Samhain?
Throughout the centuries people have always seen the "ghosts" of loved ones recently passed have they not?
Celtic Beliefs merely say it is easier for ancestors and those who have moved on to pass between the realms when the veils are thinnest.


But imagine if someone came to you today demanding payment for a loan made in the last otherworld. Do you think they had better memories then? Or was the "loan" that could be repaid in the otherworld, just a face saving way of giving charity that one need not repay?
Personally, I feel it was more of a "karmic" thing. The Celts did believe that your actions in this life would reflect upon your next incaration, wether you would "move on" to a higher realm, or come back to this worlds-realm in a better or worse situation than the last.

[Phi]

Celtic Beliefs merely say it is easier for ancestors and those who have moved on to pass between the realms when the veils are thinnest.


True! And there are times when the veils are thinner, and also some places where the veils are thinner...


Personally, I feel it was more of a "karmic" thing. The Celts did believe that your actions in this life would reflect upon your next incaration, wether you would "move on" to a higher realm, or come back to this worlds-realm in a better or worse situation than the last.
I can see I have much more reading to do! I have ordered more books, tho! ;)

The reading I have done seems to say that from historical evidence, it looks as if the Celts pictured an eternal cycle of life from this to the Otherworld and back again.

Yet, looking at the legends, there are many who were ancestors who were later considered gods or goddesses. Perhaps these escaped the eternal cycle?

[odubhain]

Maybe the idea of repaying a debt in the next life is another way of saying that one should be generous in this life to those who have need, since in other lives it may well be us who are in need?

The idea of crying at a birth may well be associated with the thought that constantly cycling back and forth is not exactly a blessing (as some Buddhists and Hindus believe). Guiding the dying is a practice that many cultures practice. The idea is that the mind lives on when the body is no longer completely functioning. Also the direction and opportunities one has in the death journey are many. The greatest opportunities are the most difficult to recognize and to take without outside assistance. That is where the idea of an anamchara comes in for Irish Celts.

Searles