Regarding Merlin... some thoughts

[Tabbykitty]

I had a chance to look through an actual copy of the "21 Lessong of Merlyn" (well, books like that are hard to come by in my country and are only available at specialist book stores) out of curiousity because I had read a bit about ancient druids in a few archeology books at the local library.

From the outset, it was pretty obvious that the book was a work of historical fiction, and not even accurate historical fiction unfortunately. I then showed the book to a group of friends hoping to get opinions from them about it.

However, one of my friends raised an interesting question.

"How to they know that Merlin was actually a druid?"

Well, that question certainly stopped us in our tracks. We each sat back and thought a bit, cross referencing what we knew about druids with written accounts about Arthur and Merlin and articles by historians about that era. It kinda occurred to us that there was nothing much in the books that spelled out Merlin as a member of a druidic group. I mean, given the long period of training needed to be a druid, there would have to be someone to instruct him.... perhaps for many many years. Now, if he had a teacher, a grove, group or something, shouldnt it/they have been mentioned in some account?

So that just left us with another thought. If Merlin wasn't a druid, what else could he be? A country witch? A soothsayer with a high level of precognition? An eclectic pagan who may have been a bit of a charlatan? :lol:

What do you all think? Who was he really?

Well, a friend of mine who is really into reincarnation said, "If there really was an actual historical Merlin who either did a fraction of the stuff recorded in the Arthurian legends or maybe did it in a completely different way than what was written..... given what we know about his intuitive insight and skill in the mystical.... I'd think that if he was reincarnated as someone today.... he would probably be 1. awakened 2. annoyed that his name is stuck to a book that probably has nothing to do with his real knowledge or power...."

[Ladyvi]

because merlin isnt just a name its a rank. the Merlin is a job title so to speak. thats how we know that he was a druid. Myrddyn is what merlin was translated from i believe. some of the historians here may have more information.

[jcldragon]

Modern (non-Pagan) historians have found several different places/times in history that kind of match up with the Arthurian legends. None of them seem to be exact matches. So what they figure is that the stories are made up of composite characters. Real people who did real things of a heroic nature, spread over perhaps a thousand years or more, and various elements of their stories put together by Bards... fictionalized, (as we still do it today), but containing an essential, & eternal Truth.

That process, and the meaning of such stories is explained by Joseph Campbell in The Hero with a Thousand Faces. By that reasoning, Merlin represents the old soul, who has faced mortality, & transcended...

[Morgandria]

I guess it really depends on if you believe they were an actual person, or even a composite of actual people. I believe that Merlin/Myrddin/however you want to spell it is a fictional character.

[Ron]

Modern (non-Pagan) historians have found several different places/times in history that kind of match up with the Arthurian legends. None of them seem to be exact matches. So what they figure is that the stories are made up of composite characters. Real people who did real things of a heroic nature, spread over perhaps a thousand years or more, and various elements of their stories put together by Bards... fictionalized, (as we still do it today), but containing an essential, & eternal Truth.

That process, and the meaning of such stories is explained by Joseph Campbell in The Hero with a Thousand Faces. By that reasoning, Merlin represents the old soul, who has faced mortality, & transcended...
:bothsides You get a kiss on each cheek for that -- just because I somewhat agree with you. :) (And I don't often agree... with anything)

[Phi]

I guess it really depends on if you believe they were an actual person, or even a composite of actual people. I believe that Merlin/Myrddin/however you want to spell it is a fictional character.Could be an archetype, partly fictional, but based on one or several real legendary/semi-historic figures. Also based on the cultural ideal of what such a one is and could be at his best.

However I do believe that the Merlin legend does have a somewhat historical base (the actual), but that the events in this legend are obscured by time, and no doubt glorified(the fictional) in some respects, as this was the custom in that culture for heroic tales and ballads.

(For example that St Guenole was a real person is probable, but that he turned a woman into a mermaid might be considered unlikely, right?)*

Which parts are true and which parts are glorified? Ahhh...there's the question.

If one believes in magic at all, then can one really say that all of the magic referred to in the tales is impossible? To do this is to say that magic is possible but not that kind of magic, or not then, or not as written...

So maybe it really depends on whether one believes that there is/was actual magic?

Edited to add: *I had incorrectly used Comcille rather than Guenole in this legend, beg pardon. But it didn't, at least change the point of the sentence.

[odubhain]

I think the Merlin legend has grown into the general public perception of what a Druid is. For a scholarly discussion of who Merlin could have been:

http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/n&q/myrddin.htm

Searles

[Phi]

I think the Merlin legend has grown into the general public perception of what a Druid is. For a scholarly discussion of who Merlin could have been:

http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/n&q/myrddin.htm

Searles
Thanks for the reference. :)

[ap Dafydd]

Another source you might try (if it's still in print) is "The Quest for Merlin" by Nikolai Tolstoy

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[AstralMagick]

I have that book also and found it very informative. First of all, in the book, these are just stories to help us understand what the lesson that follows will stand for. Second, There is a lot of historical evidence that Merlyn was a Druid (though I don't know exactly what).

[Dave the Druid]

Try the Mabinogi for a nearly specific Welsh reference.
What else, what else?.....(bangs head to get heart started)

Oh yes! conjecture only here but, hmm two paths here perhaps. First that the stories were written by christian monks would have elminated or seriously reduced the references to Druidry as being counter to the 'authorised version.'
The other might be that what is the point of calling someone a Druid if everyone knows that they are a Druid? Finally, these stories were well known long before they were put in writing. It does break up the nemonic to say, "Merlin, the Druid" as opposed to just "Merlin" did thus and such. As I write that it strikes e as also being easier to remember as well.

Just my musings at this early hour.

[Twig]

yeah, what he said.

especialy the early part.

[ap Dafydd]

Try the Mabinogi for a nearly specific Welsh reference.
What else, what else?.....(bangs head to get heart started)


Scratching my own head on this one, I can't remember there being a reference to Merlin in the Mabinogi. Geoffrey of Monmouth, yes...

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Dave the Druid]

Scratching my own head on this one, I can't remember there being a reference to Merlin in the Mabinogi. Geoffrey of Monmouth, yes...

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

Stop playing with my sometimes faulty memory. :ugh:
The translation I have is old, dating back to the late 70s or early 80s when I was first at university. I seem to recall somewhere in the story of Rhiannon a reference to Merlin. I could be wrong about that cite but I feel that it's in there some where.(scratches head)

[Twig]

Stop playing with my sometimes faulty memory. :ugh:
The translation I have is old, dating back to the late 70s or early 80s when I was first at university. I seem to recall somewhere in the story of Rhiannon a reference to Merlin. I could be wrong about that cite but I feel that it's in there some where.(scratches head)

I know theres more than 2 references in The Bardic Sourcebook by Lewellan.

I've heard tell that it was theorised he was actually Cuculain (sp-its early).



Peace, yaaaaaaaawn.
Twig

[Dave the Druid]

I know theres more than 2 references in The Bardic Sourcebook by Lewellan.

I've heard tell that it was theorised he was actually Cuculain (sp-its early).



Peace, yaaaaaaaawn.
Twig

Brother are you mixing Irish and Welsh? It does give one foul head in the morning!
Cuculain I do recall from the tales of Ireland but not Wales.
Do I need to reread?

[Ladyvi]

if he said that before coffee.. very well possible. anything can happen before coffee. absolutely anything.