What is most appropriate in teaching defense against black magic/dark magic?

[Rowan Darkmoon]

This thread is partially in response to a query in the COT about starting a "Defense Against the Dark Arts" course. Not in a Harry Potter sense, but as a class about defense against black magic, psychic attack, shielding, protection, what not. It could mean a variety of things, and can be approached in a variety of ways.

It came to my attention that everyone has a different definition of "black magic," and what/how to teach it's defense. Do you think it would be wise to have such a class in an internet forum? Why or why not? What would you think such a class should/would entail should it be taught?

If you want to include what your definition of black magic is, then feel free. This is covered i this thread as well.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=80401&highlight=black+magic%3F

[AstralMoth]

For the purposes of this thread can we assume that when someone says black magick it refers to some potententially harmfull effect? the thread you linked is a poll with some very kooky answers.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

Yep, however is good with me. Just wanted to show some previous replies to the query, and not get accused of starting a new thread without searching. :toofless:

Sorry if my replies come out a little weird spelling wise. My n key is shot and I have to use Control-V now. English uses "n" way too often!!

Please define it as you will and answer the original question. :crown:

[Bethra]

Like this do you mean?

To me, black magick doesn't mean anything, except maybe a ritual with black candles and other objects, used to get rid of negative energy.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

Is that a definition or an example of a kooky answer.

Oh, now the freakin question mark is shot! :twitch:

[monk3y]

I'll start by saying that I'm pretty much a newbie (as much as I hate to refer to myself in that term)

But what I have learnt so far doesn't describe black/dark magic as a negatively charged background.

So wouldn't it be wise to describe a class or topic regarding "protecting against negative attacks/outcomes"

Just my newbie 2 cents

:)

[Tentasticle]

OK - I asked it before, I'm asking it again - define black/dark magic, please - otherwise we have no common frame of reference?

[Bethra]

Is that a definition or an example of a kooky answer.

Oh, now the freakin question mark is shot! :twitch:

yes sorry you got the post in before me lol

[Rowan Darkmoon]

OK - I asked it before, I'm asking it again - define black/dark magic, please - otherwise we have no common frame of reference?

That is the purpose of this thread for others to define it, and then to explain themselves. If you don't think the term is appropriate explain why. If you do, explain why. What's the first thing it conjures up in your head. This is what I'm asking.

[Tabbykitty]

I think BOTH intent/motivation and the type of energies used determine whether its black magic or not. Well, I believe in magic used for ill means and I also believe in the existance of energies that have ill effects on people, because I have seen both happen to people I know and I live in a region of the world where every other kid in the neighbourhood is brought up knowing not to do things that might cause one to incur a supernatural mishap.

I think some things like shielding, PROPER grounding, centering and balancing one's energy field should be made common knowledge as it would block about 80% or so of the crap that is out there.

However, it is very very very very hard to properly teach a class about psychic defense and to talk about all the different types of attacks that one can suffer because in doing so, one might actually reveal the process or even the existance of attacks, spells and rituals that should never be known. This is because, if the method of attack is unknown people won't bother to go try it.

A teacher can try very very hard to warn people about the dangers or consequences of attacking someone in a certain manner, but you can be sure that some person out there will STILL try to do it either out of desperation, ego or sheer stupidity.

Also, its hard to talk about defense without having a certain paradigm of the universe. For instance, certain types of attack can't be explained without subscribing to a certain paradigm of the universe. For instance, if you don't believe that energy can be negative/unsuited to the human form, how do you then explain its effects on people?

Amoung pure energy practicioners there are also differences as to what type of energy is better for people. For instance, there are some out there who believe 100% that energies of a certain vibrational level are bad for people. How do you reconcile their paradigm of the universe with those who do not believe the same thing?

I think that if there is to be a class, it can only be very general in nature and certainly quite a lot of stuff cannot be covered in public.

[souljourney]

There is an excellent book out called The Witches Shield, by Christopher Penzack (sp?). I have it and have only skimmed it so far, but it came highly recommended.
I will also be seeing him speak in May at the Hearland Pagan Fest in KC.
He covers lots of types of attacks and protections.

[BrigidMoon]

It came to my attention that everyone has a different definition of "black magic," and what/how to teach it's defense. Do you think it would be wise to have such a class in an internet forum? Why or why not? What would you think such a class should/would entail should it be taught?


And the other question the definition of black magic......

1. I believe black magic is:Magic practiced for evil purposes or in league with supposed evil spirits. I could say magic that is practiced with harmful intent however, that's not necessarily black magic either. As I continue on my path as a pagan, I feel rather inclined to disregard the use of that word and instead, replace it with very precise methods of magic that are harmful to others.

2. Teaching a class on the defesnes against black magic or evil magic would be difficult but NOT impossible. I believe the students would guide the teacher with specific requests on the defense. From that point perhaps a routine syllabus could be created, I feel.

3. I think this type of forum could be very helpful in gaining insight because there is some anonymity online. That helps us asks the questions we may not ask during an in-house setting for a class.


Hopefully this helps! :)

[Darakash]

This thread is partially in response to a query in the COT about starting a "Defense Against the Dark Arts" course. Not in a Harry Potter sense, but as a class about defense against black magic, psychic attack, shielding, protection, what not. It could mean a variety of things, and can be approached in a variety of ways.

It came to my attention that everyone has a different definition of "black magic," and what/how to teach it's defense. Do you think it would be wise to have such a class in an internet forum? Why or why not? What would you think such a class should/would entail should it be taught?


It seems that using the terms "dark" or "black" in reference to magick always result in debates of semantics and very rarely result in any type of consensus as to what these colors "mean." The fact is, even in that original post about "defense against the dark arts class" though the poster's intent and request was obvious--she was hoping to learn some defensive techniques (against curses, hexes, and the like)...it denigraded into a slamfest against her, and people defending her right to ask a question, and then, moved around in loops and circles, and may finally (thanks to some level-headed people) result in a class being formed.

Anyway, for the purposes of avoiding such debates, perhaps a class or discussion/forum (whatever) on (and named) what is actually meant by this original question, is Defensive Magick, Or Defense Against Negative/Harmful Magick, or Counter Magick? If we leave the whole "color" debate out of it, it narrows down the topic to the core of the issue. Some people feel that there is a need to protect/defend themselves from other magick users with harmful intent, some feel they need to protect/defend themselves against harmful entities or energies and would like tools to do so. There seem to be several members of MW who have experience in dealing with such issues and therefore, they may be a valuable resource to those seeking these tools. JMHO

[Ben Trismegistus]

As a way of answering/avoiding Tentasticle's question, I would recommend not referring to "black magic" or "dark magic" in a specific sense at all, but rather teach a class in "Magical Defense".

After all, to classify anything as "black magic" or "dark magic" is to imply evil or malevolence or at least "bad". But good magical defense is not only against ghoulies and demons and the hosts of hell (tongue in cheek). Magical defense may imply shielding against a particularly strong but untrained empath who is inadvertantly functioning as an energy vamp. There's no malevolence in that situation, or even consciousness, but it's still a situation in which one should know how to defend oneself.

Here's another analogy -- think of it like martial arts. Martial arts like karate, tai chi, etc. CAN indeed be used to kick ass against evil ninjas. But it is also a valuable spiritual and meditative practice in its own right. I think Magical Defense can serve the same purpose -- protection against potentially harmful energy, but also a valid tool to strengthen one's own abilities and focus one's energy.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Hi5, Darakash. Looks like you and me are on the same wavelength.

[Faeawyn]

Can I use defensive magic to kick the ass of evil ninjas?? Just so that I know what I'm in for :D

[Rick]

Only magical ninjas...

[Temptation]

OK - I asked it before, I'm asking it again - define black/dark magic, please - otherwise we have no common frame of reference?

The definition given will depend greatly on the individual person and their experience with the darker side of magical practices. Speaking only for myself, the experiences I've had with this type of magic happened only in Italy. The infamous italian "malocchio" (evil eye). I haven't had to deal with this kind of thing anywhere else, except maybe in Africa, but that is another type of dark magic altogether and much easier to shield from than the italian version of it.

The reason for it is that the "malocchio" is in most cases completely unintentional. It's done in an unconscious manner. The African practices of evil magic are done intentionally and in my experience, are easier to identify and protect oneself from.

The malocchio is a sneaky, vicious and very powerful energy because it finds its source in the depths of the soul that sends it out there. It's fueled by pure hate and envy and it works mainly because people fear it. I don't know why it works so well and so fast, all I know is that it's real and it takes a strong person to fight against it. The one on the receiving end of it is usually not able to fight it on his/her own and this is the most common reason why people seek out the help of a "witch" in Italy.

This, to me, is one definition of what "black" magic can do and the scariest version of it I've encountered so far. Others will have another definition depending on what they've had to deal with.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Hmmm.... Well, I know I'm subscribed to the thread you linked, but I didn't really want to find my post in all the pages of posts, so I'll just come up with something here... It'll be interesting how it compares..

Typically, I think of 'dark magic' as something destructive and 'light magic' as something creative. (Either can be helpful or harmful, depending upon the situation.) There really doesn't seem to be any difference in the energy/magic itself, it's just a functional definition to describe the outcome... So I suppose I would see defense against "dark magic" or "dark arts" (the latter would be methods of bringing about destruction) as being protection against or engaging against something that is going to destroy me or parts of me, my home, my sanity, my friends, my family, or anything, really, that I care about.

I also think, though, in terms of learning defense, since a lot of people define "dark" as intent, then it'd be more accurate just to say Defensive Magic or some such... Even with my own definition, if someone is trying to 'create' some kind of anything that I don't want around me (ummm... like, say, they are trying to create a feeling of affection in me towards them) then I'd want to defend against it.

LOL, alright, weird analogy.... it's like a weed. The definition of a weed is any plant that is growing where it isn't wanted. So basically, one wants to defend against any magic that is not wanted... or "magical weeds"! ^_^ Defense Against Magical Weeds! .... sorry. ^_^

And I'd like to emphasize that I'm not trying to say that all destruction is bad or all creation is good. I mean, I honor gods of death and destruction as much as those of life and creation... Some things need to be destroyed and some should not be created. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

ETA: Ok, I lied, I posted in this thread: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=72246&page=1&pp=20 Interestingly, I said something very close to what I just said here... Though I will quote myself, because I found it funny... "I tend to have at least three different intentions for everything I do, 'mundane' and magical."

[Teresa]

I prefer to call it "creamed pea" magic :p _whistle_ :smileroll As for a definition, I do know what others are talking about when they say black magic or dark magic. It is a form of energy intentionally directed that is intended to harm,inflict pain,maime,even kill.This definition may not cover everything but is what I generally think of.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Typically, I think of 'dark magic' as something destructive and 'light magic' as something creative. (Either can be helpful or harmful, depending upon the situation.)
The problem with this analogy (and I'll pick on you, Dawa Lhamo, because you're smart enough to take it) is that so few things are entirely destructive or entirely creative. Take agriculture, for instance. In order to encourage crops to grow, we must rip up what remains in the ground, destroy pests, precipitate the end of the previous year's cycle.

Virtually every act has creative and destructive properties. So, by attempting to pigeonhole magic into one cabinet or another, we are failing to consider the full implications of those particular magical acts. Easier, in my opinion, to just say "magic" and leave it at that. Sometimes magic can hurt, which is why learning Magical Self-Defense is a fine idea.

[Another stupid analogy: We learn "defensive driving". We don't learn "defense against bad cars." ;)]

[Greybird]

A couple of posts into this thread, I came to the realization that most peoples' definitions of 'black magick' are from their own perspective. In other words, how they define the magick that they themselves do, perhaps to recognize something they want to avoid. The definitions work ok for that, but not so much when viewed from the perspective of the recipient.

I think it would be more productive to just throw out the term 'black magick' or 'negative magick', or whatever, and re-ask, "If you were studying defensive techiniques, what would you want to defend yourself from?" When asked that way, I would say that I'd want to be able to defend myself against:

Any effects, positive or negative, that I didn't personally desire.

That would include any sort of hex/curse/harmful spell/etc, as already mentioned. It would also include positive magick worked on my behalf without my desire; I might choose to let a cold run its course to bolster my own immune system, for instance, and a healing spell from a friend might be unwelcome. It would also include unintentional acts - spiteful things said by an angry person, unaware psychics, and so forth.

I might also include unintentional side effects or backlash from my own workings.

[Bethra]

A couple of posts into this thread, I came to the realization that most peoples' definitions of 'black magick' are from their own perspective. In other words, how they define the magick that they themselves do, perhaps to recognize something they want to avoid. The definitions work ok for that, but not so much when viewed from the perspective of the recipient.

I think it would be more productive to just throw out the term 'black magick' or 'negative magick', or whatever, and re-ask, "If you were studying defensive techiniques, what would you want to defend yourself from?" When asked that way, I would say that I'd want to be able to defend myself against:

Any effects, positive or negative, that I didn't personally desire.

That would include any sort of hex/curse/harmful spell/etc, as already mentioned. It would also include positive magick worked on my behalf without my desire; I might choose to let a cold run its course to bolster my own immune system, for instance, and a healing spell from a friend might be unwelcome. It would also include unintentional acts - spiteful things said by an angry person, unaware psychics, and so forth.

I might also include unintentional side effects or backlash from my own workings.


Heya welcome finaly we have someone speeking plain truths. Yes you are quite correct that Magic is only sean as good or bad by us ourselves because of our perception of everything. I have already stated that Magic has no duality it is a singular thing but you highlighted the reason for this perfectly. Humans are dualities in creation and thinking. We define what is good and what is bad, we set these standards.

So when teaching a defencive magic class we can't teach defensive magic against that which does not exist so we can't teach deffence against Black or Bad Magic. If you are a serious Magical practitioner you will have taken the correct precousions to learn basic Psychic/Magical Self Defence. It is not so hard or so imposible to learn. When we cast a circle we are in effect doing a simple form of this.

Well thats my ten penneth I'll shut up now.

[~Elise~]

So when teaching a defencive magic class we can't teach defensive magic against that which does not exist so we can't teach deffence against Black or Bad Magic. If you are a serious Magical practitioner you will have taken the correct precousions to learn basic Psychic/Magical Self Defence. It is not so hard or so imposible to learn. When we cast a circle we are in effect doing a simple form of this.

Well thats my ten penneth I'll shut up now.

Yes, you can teach defense against magic that is done with ill-intent...are you saying that THAT doesn't exist?

Obviously, not everyone is as a serious magician, as you are. BUT even YOU had to start somewhere.
And that is all that they are asking the chance to do--without harrassment from people who don't think it can be done, without being ridiculed by others.

Basic techiniques can be taught without having to be in-person and once they have the basics down, they can expand their skills on their own...but again they have to start somewhere and if they don't have someone that can teach in-person...then this a viable alternative.

JMO and obviously YMMV,

Elise

[MagickalHack]

I think BOTH intent/motivation and the type of energies used determine whether its black magic or not. Well, I believe in magic used for ill means and I also believe in the existance of energies that have ill effects on people, because I have seen both happen to people I know and I live in a region of the world where every other kid in the neighbourhood is brought up knowing not to do things that might cause one to incur a supernatural mishap.

Energy is energy, It is in the intent, putting labels on the energy lessens it[negativity] to a natural phenomenon. Nature doesn't see positive, and negative, only balance. Only sentient beings, mold energy into positive, or negative forms, based on their intent.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

But a class on defending against such malicious intent would be a beneficial thing.

[Xander67]

Like this do you mean?
To me, black magick doesn't mean anything, except maybe a ritual with black candles and other objects, used to get rid of negative energy.

this quote is a perfect example of why I believe magic is neither Black nor White..


If you use a Black candle to expell negativity, are you not doing Good towards the one being rid of said negative energy?


I think the BEST defence is an EDUCATED one :)

Perhaps putting magic in its core aspects would be a good start...

Positive and Negative, when ever you are mentioning those two terms you invoke science.

im not saying Magic is Science..... but I believe Magic is simply Magic and it is the Aplication and intent, as well as the changes that are manifest in the world that need to be adressed when you talk of defense.

why not? why cant thier be a scientific approach to Magic?

[Bethra]

Yes, you can teach defense against magic that is done with ill-intent...are you saying that THAT doesn't exist?

Obviously, not everyone is as a serious magician, as you are. BUT even YOU had to start somewhere.
And that is all that they are asking the chance to do--without harrassment from people who don't think it can be done, without being ridiculed by others.

Basic techiniques can be taught without having to be in-person and once they have the basics down, they can expand their skills on their own...but again they have to start somewhere and if they don't have someone that can teach in-person...then this a viable alternative.

JMO and obviously YMMV,

Elise

Sorry but where in my post did I ridicule anyone? I simply pointed out that we all do basic protection. I also pointed out that there was no difference in the magic since magic has no intent only people have intent. I'm sorry if you felt I was ridiculing you. I was not I was simply stating my thoughts on the matter and last time I checked I had just as much right to do that as anyone else does on here. Freedom of speach is something I hold very dear to me and that means I can say my peace if I wish to. Now as to needing someone to teach you I would have to disagree, I didn't have one on one teaching, nor have I ever been lucky enough to have actual physical teaching but should I come under attack I am very capably of defending myself simply because I got out there and taught myself. I never said the idea you put up was a bad one simply that it shouldn't be considered as anything more than the basics.

[~Elise~]

It wasn't in this thread, but the original one where you basically talked down to the people, one--for the title of the thread and two, because you felt it was something that could not be taught this way.

You are more than welcome to say your piece, but freedom of speech also means that others are entitled to their opinion, as well.

You're self-taught? AWESOME. That shows a good skill level, to me anyway. But not everyone can do that. You yourself said in the other thread that this was something that someone should go find a one-on-one teacher for. Interesting you feel that way considering that you are self-taught.

What is so wrong with people wanting a bit of guidance? I personally don't see it or I wouldn't have agreed to teach the class. I'm HPS for a thriving group of approx. 40 people right now, I also am exteremely involved in my community and am the local coordinator for PPD. I have a fundraiser coming up in less than three weeks...one two weeks after that and my own handfasting in a couple of weeks after that. BUT -- I felt strongly enough that this was important enough to find the time to help out those who aren't as comfortable as you are learning on their own. they want guidance and there is nothing wrong with that.

Elise

[Ben Trismegistus]

ADMIN MODE

Chill. There's a reason why the other thread was closed.

[Aidron]

Why not just call it "Defense Against the Malevolent Arts"? That's what it boils down to, malevolence.

In the end, I support a class of this type. This type of skill is too often looked upon as the dabblings of paranoid delusional occult practioners. "You aren't really cursed, you just think you are!"

It would do well to teach people that such is not always true and how to actively defend themselves if need be, and thanks to me you have a colorless title of honest poportions that shouldn't offend anyone... unless of course they disbelieve in malevolence all together in which they are welcome to cling to such fallacies.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Why not just call it "Defense Against the Malevolent Arts"? That's what it boils down to, malevolence.
Because it's not simply defense against malevolence. It's also defense against magic which may have been good-intentioned but ended up having negative consequences. Or against unconscious magic, or whatever. What's wrong with just "Magical Self-Defense"?

[~Elise~]

That is what I sent to Morr as the title...but I don't know what it will eventually end up being.

Elise

[Aidron]

Because it's not simply defense against malevolence. It's also defense against magic which may have been good-intentioned but ended up having negative consequences. Or against unconscious magic, or whatever. What's wrong with just "Magical Self-Defense"?


According to what I had read the class had nothing to do with the above, thus my title was very logical.

However, I see no reason not to call it "Magical Self-Defense". There is no need for an extravagant title that gives it an aura of mystery and "Ooooh!"... unless of course you're into those sorts of things in which case I doubt you'd be a very serious student regardless, so it's a moot point.

[AstralMagick]

I wouldn't describe black magic as in evil. If you refer to curses, hexes, or other such things, I'd rather call it negative magic because black and darkness can be used for good things also.

[Tabbykitty]

Energy is energy, It is in the intent, putting labels on the energy lessens it[negativity] to a natural phenomenon. Nature doesn't see positive, and negative, only balance. Only sentient beings, mold energy into positive, or negative forms, based on their intent.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

But a class on defending against such malicious intent would be a beneficial thing.

Hmmmmm I guess when I say "dark" energies, I am really talking about dense energies of low vibrational level.

From what I know thus far, intent calls forth the appropriate energy to accomplish the planned task.

I once wondered if energy itself was neutral. However, I soon realised that for me at least, as a human being, it was very hard, if not impossible to regard all energies as such. To put it simply, as a human person I have a certain energy signature, a certain auric field and a certain vibrational level.

When I meet beings of a different vibrational level, I will be affected by them depending on whether they are of a high or low vibration. If I meet beings or people of a high vibrational level, for instance, a yogi with many years of experience, I'll probably feel energized, serene or comfortable when talking to them. This is similar to me going to a place (eg. a park, a medow, the beach) with energies of a high vibrational level, I'll benefit from the energy interaction that goes on while Im in that place.

However, if I were to meet someone of a lower vibrational level (eg. some of the local witchdoctors and medicine men or entities ) I might feel uncomfortable, agitated or perhaps even drained of energy. There are indeed places where dense/low vibrational energies exist, either as a natural phenomenon (eg. "Bad geomancy" as some people call it) or because of certain events that happen (eg. places with bad history). Going to one of those places sometimes causes one to feel uncomfortable, chills or for some, even pain. Sometimes, people fall sick more often or have long streaks of bad luck, if they have to work long term in such a place.

Now, assuming energy is completely neutral, it wont matter then if I were to go to a place with natural bad energies because there is no malicious intent there to transmute the energy and cause me discomfort. But that is clearly not the case, otherwise, people wont bother learning how to shield or wear protective talismans when going to a particularly "bad" place.

That is why I find it hard to percieve all energies (minus intent) being neutral. Because, clearly, as a being living in a certain context, under certain rules, some stuff would clearly make me sick...... intent or no intent. Hence for me, some energies would necessarily have to be "bad" and others that are more compatible with my form and field... "good".

Me two cents.

[~Elise~]

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=1773701#post1773701

this is the Signup thread for the class. It will start May 9th

Woohoo! We're on our way!

Elise