Self Initiation

[eaglewolf]

If your Path dictates initiation, what are your thoughts?

[Dagda Moon~Lily]

I think so....if not....how did any path get started in the first place??? :D

[eaglewolf]

...the whole chicken or the egg thing... interesting.

But is there a difference between founders and initiates?

~ew

[belladonna23]

I think...

self-dedication is possible, but perhaps not self-initiation.

A founder is one who establishes or institutes something, i.e., brings it into existence.

An initiate is "one who is undergoing or has undergone the rites, ceremonies, ordeals or instuctions with which one is made a member of a sect or society, or is invested with a particular function or status." (Merriam-Websters New Collegiate Dictionary)

I feel that if someone wants to join a group or be part of a tradition that requires initiation, then the initiation should be done by members of that group who have a lot of experience. But then again, there are a lot of paths that don't require a formal initiation, in which case you would think that self-dedication would suffice.

[rantnraven]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
[BBut is there a difference between founders and initiates?

~ew [/B]

One who is a founder must be initiated - if only by the self. Otherwise, who is to say what the initiation rites are?

And I think the question is: what came first, The Bunny or the egg?

-T

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by rantnraven
One who is a founder must be initiated - if only by the self. Otherwise, who is to say what the initiation rites are?

So, when you initiate yourself, are you starting a new Path (as a founder) or initiating yourself into someone elses Path with little or no guidance/discipline? Or... something else...

~ew

[rantnraven]

If you're initiated into someone else's path, you wouldn't be founder. As founder, I think my point was "practice what you preach". Some say "do as I say, not as I do". I don't believe in the latter.

Besides, we all have a little of someone else's path in us. Don't we??

-T
----

Again, the dirt road!

[eaglewolf]

Okay(?) :rolleyes:

I think our wires got crossed on that one...

You seem to have combined my options into one question, when there were in fact three, LoL!

~ew

[belladonna23]

I think that if you initiated yourself, you would be starting a new path (as a founder). If you are solitary, wouldn't that sort of make you more or less the founder of your own path, and not necessarily part of someone else's?
I believe that it is the guidance and discipline that is the initiation. From what I have seen and heard, many paths initiation rites are quite elaborate, and I think to initiate oneself would be extremely difficult, if not impossible.
Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.

[mol]

I do think that self-initiation into a PATH is possible. After all, a Path is a very personal thing. Now, perhaps self-initiation into a Tradition would be a tad bit illogical.

[rantnraven]

If you "self-initiate" into a PATH - a NEW path - then you become founder of the path and thus a tradition.

I agree with Mol, you cannot self-initiate into a tradition but, you can, a path.

Is that right?

There's a fine-line here!!

-T

[Dextra]

Hmmm....this is a tricky one.

I agree that you can self-dedicate into a path, but not a tradition. I was initiated into a tradition about eight years ago. But I had to leave the coven because I moved 700 miles away. After being on my own a couple of years I started trying different things and saw that I wanted to follow a new path that was completely my own. I spoke to the high priestess of my old coven for advice. She recommended doing a self dedication to commit myself to my new path and gave me the coven's blessings. I did the self dedication and have been very happy with my new path for quite some time now.

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Dextra
I did the self dedication and have been very happy with my new path for quite some time now.

This is my point(?)

Can you "initiate" yourself into a Path, or "dedicate" yourself to a Path?

I see self-initiation as being, well, impossible... unless you are founding a new tradition/coven etc...

Dedication and initiation can be rituals which share common traits/goals, but are in fact two different things which apply to two different circumstances.

Just a thought... anyone?

~ew

[Dagda Moon~Lily]

ahh....but walking the wiccan/pagan path, you are founding your own path...because even if a group of people are 'walking the same path' that path isn't exactly the same for each member. My beliefs are exactly the same as anyone else's, they may be similar, but not the same.

Now, I feel the only reason that initiations exist is to test the determination, stength or moral intent of the one that would join....a case of 'how badly do you want to be "one of us"?' ...to phase out those who aren't serious.

....your input ~ew??

[Shatav]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


I see self-initiation as being, well, impossible... unless you are founding a new tradition/coven etc...



Bingo, or at least following your own path. You don't necessarily have to be founding a new trad for anyone but yourself. Initiation into a trad that already exists means getting with that trad and being initiated by them.

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Dagda Moon~Lily
Now, I feel the only reason that initiations exist is to test the determination, stength or moral intent of the one that would join....a case of 'how badly do you want to be "one of us"?' ...to phase out those who aren't serious.

True... which is why I think dedication is the only route for entering a Path, after all, the only one you are trying to prove anything to is the Divine. That is what dedication is...

Initiation is more of a mundane trial, and without others to accept your offer, it is needless.

~ew

[rantnraven]

Dedication is of the self. Are you saying that it is the self that is divine. If so, I belive that to hold true.

Divinity is within.

-T

[eaglewolf]

Absolutely true... from my point of view.

Although, I am thinking of dedication more as a formal rite, for the Divine... your dedication for/to yourself comes before, after all, you must yourself be dedicated before you may dedicate yourself to Divinity.

It is in me,
It is in you,
Within the Earth,
In all that we do.

It is in the moon,
It is in the stars,
Within all of us,
Divinity is ours.

~ew

[Dextra]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


This is my point(?)

Can you "initiate" yourself into a Path, or "dedicate" yourself to a Path?

I see self-initiation as being, well, impossible... unless you are founding a new tradition/coven etc...

Dedication and initiation can be rituals which share common traits/goals, but are in fact two different things which apply to two different circumstances.

Just a thought... anyone?

~ew

When I dedicated myself into my new path, it was my own path, and not someone else's tradition. So I guess you could say that I started my own tradition! Hey, I like the sound of that!:D

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Dextra
I started my own tradition! Hey, I like the sound of that!:D

Well, I would say that you are well on your way...

;)

~ew

[mol]

Originally posted by Shatav


Bingo, or at least following your own path. You don't necessarily have to be founding a new trad for anyone but yourself. Initiation into a trad that already exists means getting with that trad and being initiated by them.

But, each Path is different...even with members of the Same tradition.

What of that?

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by mol
But, each Path is different...even with members of the Same tradition.

What of that?

Personally, I think when you are dealing with a "Path," dedication is the issue, not initiation, and dedication is different for each person regardless of Path or tradition.

Members of the same tradition should all be initiated in the same way, if not, the tradition begins to lose integrity.

Again, I am talking in terms of the difference between dedication and initiation.

~ew

[ELM]

Initiation is merely a ritual or an event which confirms your devotion. It takes place after you have seriously studied and considered your path. Self-initiation is when you trust that you alone can give of yourself to the God and Goddess. It is up to them to accept you into the path, even if someone else were to initiate you the God and Goddess would still have to touch you, speek to and through you. You can do this on your own and it can happen by accident too. You will know when it has happened without question, like falling inlove, you just know. Yet someone else can initiate you and you will feel that very little has happened. Initiation is the point in your path where there is no turning back because you have made contact with and completley accepted the dieties, you have proved yourself to them and they have accepted you. You do not need to be initiated into a group, as paganism in ancient times did not have groups as we know them today. You need only be initiated into the hearts of the Gods.

[eaglewolf]

I see what you have described as dedication rather than initiation. Perhaps this is from where all of the differing views are stemming...

I know initiation as a ritual, test, ceremony etc.. in which a new member is admitted into a specific group.

Just a thought...

~ew

[ELM]

I don't think you can separate the two things really. Only that dedication is confirmed by initiation and at that point you know that you have done the right thing, or not, in which case you do not complete the initation. I see what you are saying though, its just that I do not make such separations, thisis probably to do with my belief in the interconnectedness of everything! But also to do with my belief that it is 'otherworldly' forces that are really responsable for transitions.
But then thats just me.

[eaglewolf]

It is indeed great insight... not trying to say you were wrong, just formulating my thoughts of why there is such a wide difference of opinion...

Keep them coming guys, this is what the boards are all about, diversity and sharing!!

~ew

[rantnraven]

There is a lot of black and white here - what of it we use to create our grey is what becomes the tradition. Initiation into that grey becomes tradition as well.

Tradition becomes altered from one generation to the next. For ex. I make pickles - of the bread-and-butter variety. My grandmother passed to me a recipe that she got from her mother, and so on. She altered the recipe before giving it to me and I have altered it since. But the pickles still taste the same. Thus, we incorporate Institution in addition to tradition.

Still, all the same, I had to "Self-initiate" myself into the making of the pickles and, I am dedicated to the process. The ultimate product is that of which my grandmother, and her mother alike, have created for generations.

We can apply this to our lives. Things change - we change - but the outcome (institution) is essentially the same - only the tradition has changed (a little). Initiation is of little consequence.

Hope this made a SOME sense.

-T

[ELM]

Yes it did make sense, and I like it because it reminds me of another important point in relation to this issue. The point that 'paganism' is about the freedom of spiritual expression and I think it always has alowed for some variation on themes or traditions. Different people devote themselves to different Gods and Goddesses within a 'religion'. Shaman are recognised as such through different signs, and thus it follows that initiation can also be different for different people. It bothers me that modern groups employ a little too much formality, and while set rituals do create a unique way of communicating the 'hidden', rigid practices belong much more to organised instituionalised religion, rather than to our free flowing individual-growth oriented paganism.

[rantnraven]

That is why I cannot belong to a Coven. Though less formal then an institutionalize religion, Covens do have a stricter form of worship. I am too eclectic.

My thought anyway.

-T

[LaDaya]

I have never been initiated into any group or coven. I have done a self-dedication when I first began this path and I have done a self-initiation for the path I have chosen which is pretty much a mixture of paths from other places and my own instinct.

[silvermoon]

Hi guys,

Self Initiation vs Self dedication

I think trying to make a distinction between the two is symmantics. I not saying that anyone's opinion is wrong but we have all decided to follow the pagan way of life or PATH!!!! because institutionalised religions seemed to restrictive or through these religions something felt like it was missing. The conventional religions do not seem to allow person to grow and find what is right for them.

Sometimes through necessity, someone can (& does) initiate themselves. Living in the part of the city that I do there is little or no groups or covens that I have been able to find. Therefore I have been practicing by myself for around two years and would have liked to be guided by someone experienced instead of by books.
But to get by, you do what you have to.

So whether by necessity or choice, someone can self initiate or they can be initiated by group into a path/tradition. Neither way is wrong and ultimately the choice is up to the initiate thus it is the RIGHT WAY for that initiate.

Blessed Be

silvermoon

[Mairwen]

Well, here's an Initiatory example.

The Tradition I Initiated into in 1995 was in Northern California, and I was where I am now ~ and there was no way I could get to them, and no way they could get to me for various reasons. My Teacher was kind enough to send me the rituals I would need, as well as several pages of instructions/ritual patterns. I was friends with a group of Wiccans, and they were kind enough to perform the Initiation for me.

Did that make it any less valid? There are those who will say it does, and there are those who will say it doesn't. As an HPs of this Tradition for the last three years, I've performed several Initiations ~ even went to NorCal for hands-on training for a while a few years ago. And I can vouch that the energies/patterns/occurances/etc/so forth in MY Initiation were not any different/less than those I've watched/performed myself, since.

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by rantnraven
If you're initiated into someone else's path, you wouldn't be founder. As founder, I think my point was "practice what you preach". Some say "do as I say, not as I do". I don't believe in the latter.

Besides, we all have a little of someone else's path in us. Don't we??

-T
----

Again, the dirt road!

:D From my personal experiences, those who say,
"Do as I say, Not as I do." are christians.

[rantnraven]

Originally posted by Mystique


:D From my personal experiences, those who say,
"Do as I say, Not as I do." are christians.


Mostly, I'm sure, but there are a few Pagan's out there - and I've met a couple - that use the do as I say thing.

But will not name names even though not a one is a member of this Community.

RnR

[ELM]

The "Do as I say" people are also parents! Because children should not be drinking, having sex, staying up too late and such. This is why parents say, "Do as I say not as I do". This may also be why some more experienced people within the craft say the same. Because it may be dangerous for a 'novice' to do some things that they have had no experience of yet. You get this in martial arts too, and indeed where ever there is a teacher and a student. Sometimes it is because they are readying a person before throwing them in at the deep end. Just a thought.

[Shatav]

Originally posted by ELM
The "Do as I say" This may also be why some more experienced people within the craft say the same. Because it may be dangerous for a 'novice' to do some things that they have had no experience of yet.

Very true, and a very good thought ELM. I certainly wouldn't teach someone to summon a non-corporial before they even know how to call up a circle. That's just asking for it.

Truthfully, my mentor took a very strong approach to training, and would try and over-load me, but she was always right there to stop things before any major damage was done. But she also knew me, and knew what I could handle.

Most people however don't have the luck that I did in finding a mentor that I could see every day, and the kind of training that I had required it, just like going to practice everyday for martial arts, as you said.

[rantnraven]

Originally posted by ELM
The "Do as I say" people are also parents! Because children should not be drinking, having sex, staying up too late and such. This is why parents say, "Do as I say not as I do". This may also be why some more experienced people within the craft say the same. Because it may be dangerous for a 'novice' to do some things that they have had no experience of yet. You get this in martial arts too, and indeed where ever there is a teacher and a student. Sometimes it is because they are readying a person before throwing them in at the deep end. Just a thought.

Again ELM, point well taken. However, if we instruct our childeren one way then act another, that, in my humble opinion, is just as bad as handing them a Thomas guide to Crack Houses. Though we, as adults, induldge here and there, it is our obligation to lead by exsample. Do what we must but, do it away from their eyes or, don't do it at all.

I say this from my experience as a child. My parents would say something like, 'Don't smoke, it's bad for you". Yet they would say this as they lit up!?! I know that it is bad for me but, given the situation, it didn't stop me.

Just a thought.

RnR

[ELM]

2 very good points made above. It's about making sure someone doesn't trip up by trying to run before they can walk, and at the same time not being hypocritical.

[Earth Walker]

:D Self-Initiation into the Golden Dawn Tradition
by Chic & Sandra Tabatha Cicero

Become a practicing Golden dawn Magician with the
knowledge of Qabalah, astrology, tarot, geomancy, and
spiritual alchemy. There is no prerequisite for mastering
this highly sought-after magical curriculum, written by
the established authorities on the subject. This book
contains knowledge and rituals pertaining to both
solitary magicians and working magical groups.
:cool: :sunny:

[Mairwen]

Which goes back to something I posted in both Druids and Books a while back ~ you absolutely cannot learn everything you possibly need to know about something from a book! And that's that.

[Earth Walker]

Learning is best with teachers, and getting hands-on
experience, but books can occasionally help. :)

[rantnraven]

Originally posted by Mystique
Learning is best with teachers, and getting hands-on
experience, but books can occasionally help. :)

A thought!

Books seem to lay a foudation. It is the carpenter that helps build the house.

RnR

[Mairwen]

Thanks RnR! That's what I was trying to say, but you did it so much more eloquently! :D

[ELM]

some of the best books are not those that give lists of gods and moon cycles and tables of correspondence. Which to be frank don't mean a thing. Some of the best books are not even those that give a clinical explanation of what archeologists have found regarding ancient practices. The best books are the ones that tell stories that capture the imagination and touch the heart. 'The Alchemist' by Paulo Cheolos has nothing what so ever about paganism in it, but it was the most spiritually inspiring book I had ever come across, and from that I understand more about my path than ever I had. Anyway this is about initiation so not very relevant, but never mind.

[LaDaya]

I agree there is only so much that can be learned from a book. You can learn all the head knowledge about when and where to do something or how to do it but it doesn't help you to learn why you want to do it or if it is even a good idea. Some of these books give you spells and rituals for things that you shouldn't just do because it is there. And many books don't know what level you are on so they don't teach what you need to know then. They either are too advanced or they are not advanced enough and all you are doing is going over old material. Anyway, off the topic...

I still think it is a matter of what works for you and whoever you are working with. I don't think self-initiation should be an issue except for the person involved and whoever they are dealing with. It isn't for me to say that SoandSo is initiated or not. I'm going to shut up now... I ramble way too much....

[rantnraven]

Originally posted by LaDaya
I agree there is only so much that can be learned from a book. You can learn all the head knowledge about when and where to do something or how to do it but it doesn't help you to learn why you want to do it or if it is even a good idea. Some of these books give you spells and rituals for things that you shouldn't just do because it is there. And many books don't know what level you are on so they don't teach what you need to know then. They either are too advanced or they are not advanced enough and all you are doing is going over old material. Anyway, off the topic...

I still think it is a matter of what works for you and whoever you are working with. I don't think self-initiation should be an issue except for the person involved and whoever they are dealing with. It isn't for me to say that SoandSo is initiated or not. I'm going to shut up now... I ramble way too much....

This was not a rambling. In fact, it was rather intuative. I was taught, by my mentor, to do what you feel. If you feel it was not right, don't do it anymore. My Book of Shadows if full of rituals that I no longer practice. Instead, I have altered them to suite my practice, wants and needs. However, it is not always wise just to take the first spell you read in a book and perform it - that, in my opinion - could cause harm and that's not what we about.

So please LaDaya, by all means, Ramble.

RnR

[Krom]

Originally posted by Mairwen
Which goes back to something I posted in both Druids and Books a while back ~ you absolutely cannot learn everything you possibly need to know about something from a book! And that's that.

I agree with you here Mairwen... There are many things I have learned that will never be published because of Oaths. It is a part of the Oral Tradition. Without guidance I probably would not have been exposed to it.

As to the point of self-initiation; what would an individual be initiating themselves into? Initiation is an acceptance into the community that you are initiating into. For example; I am initiated to the sublime degree of Master Mason of Free Masonry. My initiation was my acceptance into the fraternity. I would have to go with EW on this. Self Dedication for those who start a new Path and initiation for those who follow. Unless I misread and EW was not saying that. :) Then it is my opinion. hehehe


MP B*B
Krom

[Xois]

initiation?!

I was born Pagan...no initiation necessary ;)

[Myst]

Ok, krom, why the heck did you ask that the other thread about self initiation vs dedication be closed on Aug 1st then post to this thread that's about the same thing but is 4 months old and bump it up the next day?

Just curious.

[Krom]

Originally posted by WillowRaven
Ok, krom, why the heck did you ask that the other thread about self initiation vs dedication be closed on Aug 1st then post to this thread that's about the same thing but is 4 months old and bump it up the next day?

Just curious.

The other thread was becoming personal (personal attacks etc) with some individuals. It was not staying in the realm of civil discussion. I was not against civil discussion of this topic. I did not notice that this thread was 4 months old. I apologizes for offending your eyes with it.

Krom

[Myst]

Hey I didn't say it was offensive, so don't get defensive (lil pun there).

I was just thinking if people can't argue it from a non personal view over there they probably can't do it here either. Then again, as usual, I don't propose to know everything, or even anything for that matter. I think it got argued from "this is the way you do it, period" past the point of "this is my opinion" to "this is the way you do it, period" to "hey you, you ran over my cat!"... :D

I was *JUST* asking.

Yeesh :p

[Krom]

Originally posted by WillowRaven
Hey I didn't say it was offensive, so don't get defensive (lil pun there).

I was just thinking if people can't argue it from a non personal view over there they probably can't do it here either. I think it got argued from "this is the way you do it, period" past the point of "this is my opinion" to "this is the way you do it, period" to "hey you, you ran over my cat!"... :D

I was *JUST* asking.

Yeesh :p


I was just apologizing to you and the board for reopening one that was so old. I have not been defensive yet....trust me my post would dramatically change if I felt against the wall defending myself. I thought it was strange that a similar topic was open too but when I saw that this one was started by EW, I believed that it might stay civil and mature.

I then went on to explain why I would come over to this thread and post after I had suggested that the other be closed. No more and no less. Again if I have offended you I apologize.

Krom

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Krom
I agree with you here Mairwen... There are many things I have learned that will never be published because of Oaths. It is a part of the Oral Tradition. Without guidance I probably would not have been exposed to it.

Exactly. Our Tradition just went through this, in fact. A Tuatha member took it upon herself to publish some stuff she really shouldn't have ... :rolleyes: ... However, the Oral parts weren't included (thank Goddess for small favors?), so the largest part of the publication is mostly junk. I hate that she published, but I feel sorry for the people actually buying this ... rabble ... and taking it for more than what it is. :mad:

[Cathubodva]

It is crucial to understand the question at hand what considers the OP to be initiation. Even though there are several books on the subject, individuals and traditions have a different take on what an initiation is and what is necessary for that initiation to happen.

For some initiation is merely a ritual where you confirm your path/tradition after a period of study and soul search, for others it is a complicated soul transmutation rite where symbols, myths, axioms of that tradition are passed on. It usually gives a step forward in the hierarchy of that tradition and gives the initiate tools and knowledge he would not posess otherwise.

I think that initiation into a personal path occurs without the aid of outside people and it is an ongoing process. I say this because to me, on a personal level, initiation is transformation and transmutation of the self. Rites and rituals are not exactly necessary. On a tradition, however, things are completly different. Usually the founder of a Tradition is (or we would like to believe he / she is _whistle_ ) a person with a serious occult/pagan/esoteric background that has endergone many years of study and was already in other tradition/traditions so that he/she is already an initiate. When a new tradition is born, usually it serves an esoteric purpose and has the symbols and any other paraphrenalia whose meaning only the founder of that Trad knows it. And this is where iniation comes. As a said before, iniation implies transformation, a greater awareness, and the whole death and rebirth enactment and the passage of knowldge. Of course a person can't initiate themselves alone in a tradition(at least an initiatory tradition as for instance Wicca) because those symbols that are crucial for an initiate to know arent present.

of course, YMMV

[Dawa Lhamo]

I don't think it's possible to self-initiate into anything, path, tradition, whatever. It depends all on semantics of course, what "initiation" means, what "path" means, etc.

But I think that while one can dedicate oneself, one can never initiate oneself. How would it work, anyway? I put myself through ordeals, make promises, and teach myself the secret handshake?

No, initiation must come from outside. That is not to say that the Gods might not see fit to initiate someone. The Gods can put us through it, sure. That is essentially what happens - or should - when one is initiated into a tradition, into a group... if the Gods of the tradition, of the group, are not present, then it doesn't *take*. ^_^

So I have no quibble with the idea that the Gods can or might initiate someone into their Mysteries, without a tradition, community, etc. already in place. Though it's another key point that initiation, even done by a group, means nothing outside of the specific context in which it happened.

Initiation in a coven is important to the initiate, to the Gods of the coven and to the coven, but may mean nothing outside of that. Perhaps, if the coven is part of a larger tradition, then the initiation might mean something to others within that particular tradition... but really, it doesn't give *any* outside authority. Just the same, a solitary initiation is important only to the Gods and the initiate, and doesn't confer any outside authority.

I think that is important. If the members of tradition X are not involved in an initiation of person Y, then Y cannot insist that the people of X must treat them as if X had initiated them. Well, they can insist, but they shouldn't expect to get anywhere. That familial bond simply has not formed, and it's no use trying to pretend like it has.

The solitary initiate has to earn others' respect (I'm talking about respect/authority, not just being civil), just like any old Joe from off the street, by showing, through actions that one is what one says one is, by contributing, helping, etc. That is, if they want to earn the respect of others. ^_^

If a 3* Gardnerian came up to me and wanted my respect right away... well, who cares? I'm not Gardnerian, and I'm not from his coven, so how is his degree even relevant? But if he proved himself to be knowledgeable and true, then I might well come to respect him. Just as I might well come to respect someone whose only source is unverified personal gnosis.

The proof is in the pudding.

or

By their fruits, ye shall know them.

^_^

[~Owl~]

I do think that self-initiation into a PATH is possible. After all, a Path is a very personal thing. Now, perhaps self-initiation into a Tradition would be a tad bit illogical.


I agree with Mol. Many traditions are oathbound, and initiatory, and do not recognize self taught initiates. Many trads (includingmy own) are very old, secretive, oathbound, and much of it's training is passed down ONLY from teacher/Mentor to student, after, and ONLY after an Initiation.

A Dedication is simply proclaiming your desire to the God/ess, that you wish to walk the path of the Old Ways.

Which is why there are so many diferent Trads, with different "rules".

Same with Christians: Baptists, Catholics, Protestants, and many do not regognize each others faith as valid, just as many Gardnerians do not, unless they have been initiated into the Gard Trad.

I am NOT Gard, nor Wiccan. My path is of the old Pictish ways, some of it influenced byVictor Anderson, who proclaimed the "Faery" trad in the 50's. It then spread into different Paths, from there, just as the Gard path has.

Many are Ecclectic versions of the original, with their own take on rituals, and initiation.

Initiation, remember is acceptance into a coven or Tradition. Not dedication.

IMO, you simply CANNOT self initiate. It's like writing your own Bach. Degree, without going to college to learn. Understand?
This is a VERY tricky thread, one that has many views, which ALL should be respected.

[blueangel]

I think spirituality and religion are highly personal and therefore there isn't a simple answer. However I don't see why individuals cannot initiate themselves - why does this lose the meaning?

BTW I'd use initiation and dedication to mean the same thing.

[Lunacie]

"Initiation" has several meanings besides "formal entry into an organization", such as "wisdom as evidenced by the possession of knowledge " - and - " the act of starting something for the first time." Although the first definition is most often used it isn't the only possible definition. Therefore I will also agree with Mol's post (providing he hasn't changed his belief about this issue in the six years since he wrote his post :lol:).

[The Amityville Ghost]

Agreed with Lunacie. I think it depends on what we're using the word "initiation" to mean. Are we referring specifically to some ceremonial rite of passage in which an individual is integrated into a group/order/fraternity/sorority/temple/coven/church? Or are we talking about the lifelong mystical process of being initiated into higher levels of self-awareness, an event which typically does not occur in the ritual chamber, which is necessarily different for each individual, and which can only be experienced (never "taught")?

It seems that most here think of the first definition when they use the term "initiation." I prefer the second, so I voted "Of course." Who else is going to initiate you throughout life but yourself?

[~Owl~]

Well, again, I agree with Mol.

A Path is a personal adventure between you and your Deity/High Self.

A Tradition, which is also called a Path, or Sect, etc. is a specific form of witchcraft, or magickal practice, taught by a founder, and passed on through the generations.

Therefore, Initiation is necessary in order to keep the knowledge pure, and undiluted.

It also has very powerful karmic effects upon the acolyte and mentor as well.

The Elder/Mentor/Adept is proclaiming to the Gods that he or she is admitting the acolyte into his or her coven, as well as s/he will be accepting responsiblity for his/her actions as the acolytes Teacher.

In my tradition, you must first be Dedicated for a year and a day.
No magic is permitted. Study only. Books, books, books. And lots of lectures, and oral teachings.

Afterward, upon Initiation, there are 3 levels. Each level is like a grade. From beginner to Advanced. From witch, to High Priest/ess.

Afterward, especially in covens, they have a "Council of Elders", HP/S's that have turned the leadership over to their own students, who have passed the 3rd Degree HP/S initiation, and now lead the coven.

The Council is still a very important function in the coven. They have the final say in matters, and are asked for blessings and advice.

Many covens and trads have many different systmes in which they work.

Above is the more "Old Guard" way I was raised, decades ago, and only an Initiate will EVER learn the true inner Mysteries, or "inner court" material, that you will NEVER find in any book, no matter how they "claim" to hold it's secrets. I've read plenty to know this as fact. ;)

2nd Degree is a Priest/ess, or Low Priest/ess. Only a 2nd. Degree Priest/ess may teach an acolyte, as well as a High Priest/ess, of the 3rd. Degree.

Beyond that, lays the path of the Magus, the Elder, Sage, Adept.

Usually we go back underground, and resurface years later, just as I have.
Which is why I created my Forum, The Owl's Perch. It is a teaching Forum, as well as a place to hang out.

But only serious people are allowed to join, who truly wish to learn, not just fluff around, and take from hereand thre and leave.

As a witch of the Old Guard, I take Initiation and Dedication ceremonies very seriously. They DO have implications.
And I have always held fast to my sacred Oaths, the 4 powers of the Magus:


TO KNOW
TO DARE
TO WILL
TO KEEP SILENT

[Teresa]

I feel that one can dedicate themselves.


As far as traditions go, I consider these as valuable lessons that are taught one on one and not something that you can just pick up yourself. Most Traditions that I know of pass this down verbally and do not like to share the intricate details with outsiders and only a select few will learn the inner most mysteries. This takes the course of a life time for many and becomes a way of life to those who choose to continue.

[Halstrom]

Self-initiation is an oxymoron. It is impossible to initiate oneself into a tradition. Self-dedications on the other hand, are possible.

[Lunacie]

While it is technically impossible to initiate oneself into a Tradition, it isn't necessarily impossible to initiate oneself into the Wicca religion. Not all Wiccans follow a Tradition. I know that some say that unless one is initiated into a Wiccan Tradition they shouldn't call themselves Wiccan, I don't agree with that.

I feel one can live a Christian life without ever applying for membership in a church. They would be wrong to call themselves Lutheran or Baptist or Catholic, but they would not be wrong to call themselves Christian.

I also believe one can live a Wiccan life without ever applying for membership in a Tradition. They would likewise be wrong to call themselves Gardnerian or Alexandrian or Seax-Wiccan, but they would not be wrong to call themselves Wiccan.

MHO-YMMV

[Zephyrstorm]

I think there are two different kinds of initiation at play here - Initiation into the Mysteries, and initiation into a tradition.
No you can't self-initiate into a tradition. Yes, you can be self-Initiated into the Mysteries - if the Gods do it, and sometimes the initiation leads to the Initiation.

Additionally, I'm not in a position to judge the spiritual life of anyone other than myself. Hopefully their actions will prove out, but sometimes people surprise you.

[Earthwalker]

Initiation at least in terms of the mystical experience is not something a group of individuals can give you it seems; it's more something that happens to you. One could conceivably undergo initiation into a tradition but not experience anything mystically. Granted, if it is a good group the structure of their ritual should promote the spontaneous occurrence of mystical experience but it is no guarantee. It all seems to boil back to that individual's experience though.

[bellamandu]

Besides, we all have a little of someone else's path in us. Don't we??




well, i dont have a particular path, i just kinda draw a little of EVERYONES path into my own personal path...

so i guess in that sense im a thief-witch! any initiates? :lol::lol: